Author Topic: Why is practically everyone against traps?  (Read 19476 times)

Offline Amechra

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4560
  • Thread Necromancy a specialty
    • View Profile
Why is practically everyone against traps?
« on: December 15, 2012, 08:42:23 PM »
I mean, I like traps. Hell, those bullshit unfair traps are part of the reason I started playing.

And yet, I see a ton of comments (mostly on SA) that boil down to "all traps are horribly unfun things. They are unfair pieces of shit that require the players to read the DM's mind and guess the answer he wants."

I've also had a DM where he was totally anti-traps, but then used trap rules for the ocean we were fighting on (drowning was modeled as a trap).

So, why is this? Getting rid of traps gets rid of a lot of the variation that you can get on dungeon crawls, and just doesn't make sense to me; why not trap your stuff if you think someone's going to try to take it?
"There is happiness for those who accept their fate, there is glory for those that defy it."

"Now that everyone's so happy, this is probably a good time to tell you I ate your parents."

Offline InnaBinder

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1244
  • Onna table
    • View Profile
Re: Why is practically everyone against traps?
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2012, 08:54:38 PM »
Because traps are either resolved by a simple roll that, in theory, only a select number of characters could do (meaning everyone else does nothing for 20 minutes of real-world time while Bobbo the Halfling Rogue checks a hallway); OR they're resolved OOC by the player with the brightest idea/best understanding of the mechanics based on the description and regardless of which character is theoretically most able to solve them (meaning that Steve the Engineering student solves everything, even though he's not the one playing Bobbo); OR they're based around "guess what the DM is thinking," meaning the DM's Significant Other should be playing for best odds (not even going into all the potential traps that one carries); OR someone has the ability to Shatter all the mechanisms and ignore all the fiddly bits (frustrating Bobbo's player AND the DM).  The preceding reasons are not necessarily exclusive of each other.
Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics.  Even if you win, you're still retarded.

shugenja handbook; talk about it here

Offline Amechra

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4560
  • Thread Necromancy a specialty
    • View Profile
Re: Why is practically everyone against traps?
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2012, 09:45:34 PM »
Thank you for actually explaining the stance.
"There is happiness for those who accept their fate, there is glory for those that defy it."

"Now that everyone's so happy, this is probably a good time to tell you I ate your parents."

Offline kitep

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1948
  • Lookout World!
    • View Profile
Re: Why is practically everyone against traps?
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2012, 09:50:00 PM »
I also like traps.  I don't like what the game becomes if I start using them.  I really don't want to run/play a game where the game is mind-boggling boring "check for traps". 

My players also know I have "quantum traps", ie the trap didn't exist until it was searched for and observed.  They've come to realize that (almost) every time they check for traps that automatically means there is one   :smirk

One of my fondest memories is a time we were using miniatures.  I had a chest out on the map.  When a character went to approach the chest, I picked it up, and put it back down on a loaded mousetrap.  I then informed him that he sensed "there might be a trap"   :D

Offline altpersona

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2000
  • #78
    • View Profile
    • You are here
Re: Why is practically everyone against traps?
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2012, 09:51:48 PM »
i dont disagree w/ innabinder but i do agree w/ amechra  :D


i like traps.

if i lived in a cave made of 10x10 incremented passages and rooms, you can bet your sweet bippy i'd have traps  setup to keep people and things from bothering me.

The goal of power is power. - 1984
We are not descended from fearful men. - Murrow
The Final Countdown is now stuck in your head.

Anim-manga still sux.

Offline InnaBinder

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1244
  • Onna table
    • View Profile
Re: Why is practically everyone against traps?
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2012, 10:13:57 PM »
I also like traps.  I don't like what the game becomes if I start using them.  I really don't want to run/play a game where the game is mind-boggling boring "check for traps". 

My players also know I have "quantum traps", ie the trap didn't exist until it was searched for and observed.  They've come to realize that (almost) every time they check for traps that automatically means there is one   :smirk
The second many of my players or I recognized that this is how you run traps, we would ACTIVELY DISCOURAGE any party members from ever attempting to search for them ever again.

I'm just sayin'.
Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics.  Even if you win, you're still retarded.

shugenja handbook; talk about it here

Offline Agita

  • He Who Lurks
  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2705
  • *stare*
    • View Profile
Re: Why is practically everyone against traps?
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2012, 10:45:06 PM »
I'm okay with traps if they're good traps.

(click to show/hide)
Please send private messages regarding board matters to Forum Staff instead.

Offline Drammor

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 583
  • Seer of Void
    • View Profile
Re: Why is practically everyone against traps?
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2012, 11:05:06 PM »
My players also know I have "quantum traps", ie the trap didn't exist until it was searched for and observed.  They've come to realize that (almost) every time they check for traps that automatically means there is one   :smirk

I don't think this is a quantum trap. This is a Schrodinger's trap, which is actually quite different from the theory presented via the cat in the box. A quantum trap is sometimes there and sometimes not (statistically, it is there much less often than it is absent). A Schrodinger's trap isn't there until someone checks for or otherwise initiates an action to interact with one that may or may not be there.

Isn't that right?
[20:32] <DonQuixote> A POX UPON YOU ALL!
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, J, FOR STEALING THE PURITY OF NORNS.
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, DRAMMOR, FOR ENSNARING ME IN THIS FIENDISH PRISON.

Offline DonQuixote

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2946
  • What is sickness to the body of a knight errant?
    • View Profile
    • The Spellshaping Codices (Homebrew Board)
Re: Why is practically everyone against traps?
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2012, 11:37:23 PM »
Curse you, Amechra.  For reasons you will never comprehend, this thread has led to my downfall.
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline Drammor

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 583
  • Seer of Void
    • View Profile
Re: Why is practically everyone against traps?
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2012, 11:38:59 PM »
Curse you, Amechra.  For reasons you will never comprehend, this thread has led to my downfall.

It's a trap.
[20:32] <DonQuixote> A POX UPON YOU ALL!
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, J, FOR STEALING THE PURITY OF NORNS.
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, DRAMMOR, FOR ENSNARING ME IN THIS FIENDISH PRISON.

Offline Amechra

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4560
  • Thread Necromancy a specialty
    • View Profile
Re: Why is practically everyone against traps?
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2012, 12:06:32 AM »
Why, someone DMing for you deciding to use traps now?

Or aklglisjf;kskjfsjugggggl?
"There is happiness for those who accept their fate, there is glory for those that defy it."

"Now that everyone's so happy, this is probably a good time to tell you I ate your parents."

Offline Arturick

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 190
  • Ascended Fatbeard
    • View Profile
Re: Why is practically everyone against traps?
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2012, 01:30:59 AM »
I think that traps CAN be done well, but typically are not.  There are a few nagging problems with them as a whole:

1.  How do they fit into the dungeon ecology?  If the dungeon is some kind of thriving village of under-creeps, then it often doesn't make sense for insanely dangerous things to be built into the walls and ceilings.

2.  Who's maintaining/resetting them?  Does the engineering of the trap match the intelligence and/or budget of the dungeon occupants?

3.  Is the trap adding anything to the game?  It's already been pointed out that traps become OOC engineering debates, a die roll, or "watch the DM smirk because we missed some minor aspect of the 30 minute room description he gave us two weeks ago."

4. How lethal is the trap, and why?  If a first level adventurer sets off a trap and doesn't die, what was the point?  If a PC is removed from the game by one failed save in the middle of a hallway, that's stupid.

Traps can be an interesting part of the game, but it takes effort and talent.  Perhaps a pack of gnolls set up a snare and bell combo that is designed to hold a humanoid and signal that dinner is served.  The party faces an interesting tactical situation (together, not just the rogue) if the trap is sprung by one of the PCs.  If the trap is detected, they can potentially lure the gnolls into an ambush by ringing the bell or setting off the snare with a clump of backpacks.

The "death-trap dungeon" can be justified with a "never before unsealed vault of the ancients" guarded by undead and constructs, but most players I know would approach such an endeavor by figuring out ways to blow through walls and get this aggravating chore of a dungeon over with.  Also, the "vault of the ancients" literally has no reason to feature non-lethal traps, so either the party loses a member to every failed check or the abstraction of "hit points" turns the dungeon into the "Den of Cartoon Violence."

DM:  "An anvil falls on your head.  Take 54 points of damage."

PC:  "Well, that's about half.  I do that thing where my body moves and sounds like an accordion for a bit, then start whacking myself with the wand of Cure Light Wounds."

DM:  "The walls smash together for 75 damage."

PC:  "My two-dimensional body floats back into the room and I re-inflate myself by blowing into my thumb.  Also, Wand of CLW."

Offline Garryl

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 4515
    • View Profile
Re: Why is practically everyone against traps?
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2012, 02:49:38 AM »
One time I've seen traps really appreciated was in the first campaign I ran. The party was assaulting a mountain hideout of thieves and bandits. Inside the complex (which was in use), the only traps were alarms and the like. Between guerilla tactics and superior numbers, the bandits kept forcing the players to retreat and recover back in town several times. After the first couple of times, the bandit leader set up a small arrow trap on the main entrance (the bandits would leave through a secondary, as-yet undiscovered entrance). It wasn't enough to be lethal, just to waste some resources. Each time the party left and returned, the trap would be reset (and modified slightly). When he started leaving notes on the trap, it became sort of like banter/a game between him and the party. The players actually knew something was wrong when one time they came in and the trap wasn't there (bad things had happened to the bandits). There were also a few hastily crafted traps scattered about the complex after the first few raids, but the one at the entrance was the best part.

Offline veekie

  • Spinner of Fortunes
  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 5423
  • Chaos Dice
    • View Profile
Re: Why is practically everyone against traps?
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2012, 03:47:09 AM »
I'm okay with traps if they're good traps.

(click to show/hide)
My first thought too.

Traps have their place, but the classic way of using them is just a mess. Most commonly, they are either a skill or health tax to pass, used in their crudest form, they provide role protection for the trapsmith classes. They are placed more or less everywhere, and old school DMs seem to delight in using them as a surprise screw you whenever paranoia isn't quite paranoid enough.

First, the trap's primary contribution to the game. Does it make things more interesting? Traps should add tension or augment plot, thus placing them haphazardly(like in every other corridor) should be avoided, when all it does is add time while they disarm, overload or otherwise bypass it to advance.

Second, consider the nature of the trap. Where the plot or challenge requires a trap, a trap needs not be artificial. A half collapsed building is a natural trap, where a bad trigger causes more of it to crumble. Avoidable environmental hazards are just alternate traps, using different skills to detect and disarm. A factory or alchemy lab alike are natural traps, only awaiting misuse of their equipment to go off. There is basically no difference between a natural methane pocket's reaction to the party's torch and a fireball trap. Exploit this and make them natural to the environment.

Third, consider placement. Any intentional trap would have arming and disarming features for the rightful users. They wouldn't be placed in high traffic areas because some doofus can and WILL set it off by accident without a safety or a nonlethal outcome. Such traps work well for limited access areas, tombs generally aren't meant to be opened again, making them heavily trapped has no drawbacks, but it is more likely to experience traps planted in personal chambers and containers, or tactically set up to provide an advantage in a conflict(naturally, not automatically armed in these cases).

Fourth, cost to the party. While the attrition model can be useful, recovery is usually cheap enough, and time plentiful enough that all it does is slow the group down while they heal up and head on. Traps which nickel and dime their way don't work, use those only if the party is already under time pressure. I prefer traps which alter the nature of the scenario ahead, if you're going to damage or debuff the PCs, set an alarm off so they actually have to deal with the consequences. Alternatively, adding more obstacles or re-designing the dungeon can be valid uses of 'quiet' traps. More long lasting damages can also go a good distance, ability damage recovers slowly, as do negative levels and disease, so they might represent too big a delay to actually fix without interfering with exploration.

Fifth, bypassing. If it's straight out impassable without the trapsmith, that is bad design, since there are many ways to be deprived. One of the most popular is of course, automatic reset traps, but while they interfere with just discharging onto a hapless minion, they just pose an insoluble obstacle. So think on it, doors have keys, traps have their bypasses. Make use of those, provided the party doesn't insist on headbutting the problem until the end of the day.

Sixth, plot, plot, plot. The whole point of anything is to advance the plot or generate inherently interesting reactions. Traps make a good way to limit exploration areas, particularly backtracking, due to the punishing costs for crossing them over and over. Traps can represent creatures and entities that are improbable to contest directly. Mechanical or magical, think beyond what is written on the stock devices and allow for innovative ways to attack the problem.

They have their uses, but their misuses are just so much more.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline Unbeliever

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2288
  • gentleman gamer
    • View Profile
Re: Why is practically everyone against traps?
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2012, 12:27:55 PM »
+1 Veekie.  They have a lot of pitfalls. 

Other posters have done an excellent job at explaining why traps are maligned.  Two additional thoughts.  First, traps were often considered an addition to justify the existence of a Thief/Rogue in a party.  I play in fairly small groups (b/c I'm picky, I guess), and so forcing someone to play a specific class, or burn resources just b/c, isn't good.  Especially since, as others have noted, the actual resolution of traps is typically quite bad:  it's either a die roll (ooh, exciting!) or a total out of character knowledge or a guessing what's in the DM's/adventure writer's pocket.  None of which is good.

Second, I think traps could be somewhat interesting in two cases.  One is the one that Veekie describes, where they are an organic part of the game world.  Something like "we must be getting close b/c we've been encountering all these annoying traps."  Although that could quickly get tedious.  The other is a kind of Indiana Jones style of traps, where they are interesting encounters in their own right.  You could add some of God of War's puzzles to that list, too, as they are largely magical, brutal versions of the Indiana Jones stuff.  Dungeonscape, I think, tried to pull that off and has some examples. 

Offline veekie

  • Spinner of Fortunes
  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 5423
  • Chaos Dice
    • View Profile
Re: Why is practically everyone against traps?
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2012, 02:13:06 PM »
Pathfinder had Haunts as well, which were basically ghosts in the form of supernatural traps. You don't really disarm them so much as survive them, and then resolve their grievance somehow. Unfortunately the examples are rather scanty, which puts them in the same region as traps due to lack of good samples.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline Arturick

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 190
  • Ascended Fatbeard
    • View Profile
Re: Why is practically everyone against traps?
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2012, 07:05:20 PM »
Second, I think traps could be somewhat interesting in two cases.  One is the one that Veekie describes, where they are an organic part of the game world.  Something like "we must be getting close b/c we've been encountering all these annoying traps."  Although that could quickly get tedious.  The other is a kind of Indiana Jones style of traps, where they are interesting encounters in their own right.  You could add some of God of War's puzzles to that list, too, as they are largely magical, brutal versions of the Indiana Jones stuff.  Dungeonscape, I think, tried to pull that off and has some examples.

Part of the problem with Indiana Jones type traps (specifically thinking about Last Crusade) is that they tend to remove the Rogue's final reason for existence.  Suddenly, the Rogue starts getting "Error:  System Does Not Recognize Username DISABLE DEVICE."  The fighter stands around with his thumb wedged somewhere smelly, waiting for something to bash.  Now the Cleric makes his Knowledge (Religion) to know that the penitent man is the man who kneels before God and the Wizard's Knowledge (History) reminds everyone that, in Latin, Jehovah begins with an "I" (which got me killed in the Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade title for Super Nintendo).  This is assuming the Tier 1's don't just ask God for the answer or summon a Thoqqua to tunnel through to the next room.

Offline veekie

  • Spinner of Fortunes
  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 5423
  • Chaos Dice
    • View Profile
Re: Why is practically everyone against traps?
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2012, 11:04:48 PM »
In their form imitating the source completely, yes. But such Encounter traps are best dealt with as a group. The Disable Device artist can slow down or reduce the coverage of the trap's attack, possibly disabling it more quickly than possible via blunt physical force. It depends first of all on what the overall challenge is.

Is it to stop the trap? This isn't usually a goal in itself, unless the trap threatens other people or another objective. In this case however, the whole party can assault and damage the trap, with the disable device check providing another potent source of damage. Alternatively a multi part trap can be disarmed in multiple aspects simultaneously.

Is it to survive the trap? This is a bit tricky for the martial types of course, but in such cases simply getting out of the way of the trap suffices. Rogue types tend to have the necessary movement skills to pull it off and lead the escape while the others defer death and injury.

There is a lot of possible variety but unfortunately all of them are pretty specific to the trap and party involved. It's exactly like building an encounter.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline Amechra

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4560
  • Thread Necromancy a specialty
    • View Profile
Re: Why is practically everyone against traps?
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2012, 11:13:23 PM »
Of course it's like statting an encounter!

That's the point!

I think we need a guide on the proper use of traps in dungeon design...

I might try my hand at it when I have more time.
"There is happiness for those who accept their fate, there is glory for those that defy it."

"Now that everyone's so happy, this is probably a good time to tell you I ate your parents."

Offline linklord231

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3352
  • The dice are trying to kill me
    • View Profile
Re: Why is practically everyone against traps?
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2012, 11:41:10 PM »
Of course it's like statting an encounter!

That's the point!

I think we need a guide on the proper use of traps in dungeon design...

I might try my hand at it when I have more time.

I recall Lycanthromancer had some great ideas for traps (see his ginormous post here).  You might tap him for help.  Unfortunately I haven't seen him online for quite some time :(
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.