Tell Me Beholder Mage Isn't THAT Broken

[OldManAlexi]

A thought occurred to me.  People like using tricks to get Beholder Mage and then, use prestige classes to advance it beyond its set 10 levels.  Next, looking at the Epic Levels Handbook, class features based on level continue to accrue except for spells which stop at level 20.  However, it seems to suggest that this is based on effective class level, not caster level.  Thus, Beholder Mage and, by extension, Ur Priest would continue gaining spells per day until an effective class level of 20, caster level of 40, and spell level of 19. 

Will someone please tell me I'm interpreting this wrong. 

[SorO_Lost]

Huh? Last thing I think about when someone says Beholder Mage is "take 15 levels in it!"

First thing of course is "You are not a fr*ackin Beholder" but I digress. It's a front load of BS to take levels in an obscene class no one allows anyway.

Beholder Mage's Brokeness has nothing to do with epic levels. Take these four points.
1. Learn like a Wizard, learn every single spell ever.
2. Cast like a Sorcerer, cast any spell known when you feel like it.
3. All spells are Quickened, Is it even errata'ed to a swift action or just a free action once per round?
4. 9th level spells by the 10th level. 10th level period. It's the goal of those people to enter at level 1.
Now remember, Beholder Mage gives all of them.

[Bauglir]

Couple of problems. I think Beholder Mage is a prestige class - these follow their own rules in epic. Also, I'm fairly confident that its spell access is a table lookup, not a function of level directly, so you don't get 19th level spells (but you would get double CL). Finally, what do you mean by "class features continue to accrue"? I'm not entirely sure what bit of the rules you're referring to.

[Halinn]

People like using tricks to get Beholder Mage and then, use prestige classes to advance it beyond its set 10 levels

Generally, it seems people like using it to get dual/triple 9's rather than advancing BM past 10, i.e. something like Beholder Mage/Ur Priest/Mystic Theurge

[sirpercival]

If you want level 9 spells at ECL 10, look no further than the Darklight Wizard prc from Kingdoms of Kalamar: Villain Design Handbook.  One of the most badly written and absurdly broken PrCs ever printed. 

[Cyclone Joker]

Elf Domain Wizard. 9s at level one. Three without flaws. Also, Illumian Cleric 1. Illumian Cleric 1/Wizard 2.

Beholder Mage is really broken because of its abuse of the action economy. There are easier and much faster ways to nines, ways that aren't shut down by dispel.

[linklord231]

Spells/day is definitely a lookup table and not a function of class level; look at 4th level.  Lookup tables cannot be advanced beyond the table. 

(click to show/hide)

Holy crap, full BAB, 9th level spells by ECL 9, an Animate Dead as an SLA at level 5?  Sign me up!  Oh, and you get to keep all your old feats and skill too, and get new ones as you level.  Finally, a use for taking 20 levels of Feat Rogue!

But really, just look at this particular ability: 

Death Touch:  Once per day, a Darklight wizard of 4th level or higher may attempt to use this spell-like ability.  The wizard must succeed at a melee touch attack against a living creature.  If successful, the death touch causes 1d4 damage per caster level.  If the total equals the target's current hit points, it dies.  Death touch is a supernatural ability.

It's both a spell-like and supernatural ability.  It deals damage, killing people if the damage exactly equals the target's current HP.  Did an editor even look at this book?

[sirpercival]

Spells/day is definitely a lookup table and not a function of class level; look at 4th level.  Lookup tables cannot be advanced beyond the table. 

(click to show/hide)

Holy crap, full BAB, 9th level spells by ECL 9, an Animate Dead as an SLA at level 5?  Sign me up!  Oh, and you get to keep all your old feats and skill too, and get new ones as you level.  Finally, a use for taking 20 levels of Feat Rogue!

But really, just look at this particular ability: 

Death Touch:  Once per day, a Darklight wizard of 4th level or higher may attempt to use this spell-like ability.  The wizard must succeed at a melee touch attack against a living creature.  If successful, the death touch causes 1d4 damage per caster level.  If the total equals the target's current hit points, it dies.  Death touch is a supernatural ability.

It's both a spell-like and supernatural ability.  It deals damage, killing people if the damage exactly equals the target's current HP.  Did an editor even look at this book?

My rant on KoKVDH, and on Darklight Wizard in particular.

[linklord231]

Spells/day is definitely a lookup table and not a function of class level; look at 4th level.  Lookup tables cannot be advanced beyond the table. 

(click to show/hide)

Holy crap, full BAB, 9th level spells by ECL 9, an Animate Dead as an SLA at level 5?  Sign me up!  Oh, and you get to keep all your old feats and skill too, and get new ones as you level.  Finally, a use for taking 20 levels of Feat Rogue!

But really, just look at this particular ability: 

Death Touch:  Once per day, a Darklight wizard of 4th level or higher may attempt to use this spell-like ability.  The wizard must succeed at a melee touch attack against a living creature.  If successful, the death touch causes 1d4 damage per caster level.  If the total equals the target's current hit points, it dies.  Death touch is a supernatural ability.

It's both a spell-like and supernatural ability.  It deals damage, killing people if the damage exactly equals the target's current HP.  Did an editor even look at this book?

My rant on KoKVDH, and on Darklight Wizard in particular.

Did you read what it says under "Weapons and Armor Proficiency"? 
And I have no idea what they're trying to say with the "Spell List" they have printed there.  Are those the only spells available?  Because there isn't a level 9 one.  Table 7-6 is called "Darklight Wizard Spells Known", but then immediately under that says "Spells per Day."
I just... 

[mthor]

Spells/day is definitely a lookup table and not a function of class level; look at 4th level.  Lookup tables cannot be advanced beyond the table. 

(click to show/hide)

Holy crap, full BAB, 9th level spells by ECL 9, an Animate Dead as an SLA at level 5?  Sign me up!  Oh, and you get to keep all your old feats and skill too, and get new ones as you level.  Finally, a use for taking 20 levels of Feat Rogue!

But really, just look at this particular ability: 

Death Touch:  Once per day, a Darklight wizard of 4th level or higher may attempt to use this spell-like ability.  The wizard must succeed at a melee touch attack against a living creature.  If successful, the death touch causes 1d4 damage per caster level.  If the total equals the target's current hit points, it dies.  Death touch is a supernatural ability.

It's both a spell-like and supernatural ability.  It deals damage, killing people if the damage exactly equals the target's current HP.  Did an editor even look at this book?

My rant on KoKVDH, and on Darklight Wizard in particular.

Oh god I can't stop laughing.

[Bauglir]

WHAT THE SHIT

[Nunkuruji]

I'm not defending the Darklight Wizard class. It is in need of serious editing. However, I was curious how it actually stacked up against our friend the Ur-Priest.


Basic Information

Thought Bottle: 20,000 GP

Darklight Codex: Minor Artifact, no cost, no CL

Staple Fastest 9s: Class 5 / Ur-Priest 9
9th level spells at ECL 14: 150,000 GP, 91,000 XP


Assumptions on acquiring and using a Darklight Codex in a campaign

1. PCs defeat a Darklight Wizard of 10th or higher level to acquire the Codex. Players themselves are at least 10th level with 45,000 XP
2. PC successfully uses Codex, and returns to a 1st level character
3. PC aquires 9th level spells at 9th level, or 36,000 XP*
4. Party is now at 91,000 XP, or 14th level. Ur-Priest has 9th level spells.*

*Does not factor in experience as a river, or the fact that the Darklight Wizard could easily face some death level loss setbacks being so low level and fragile.



Assumptions of actually being allowed to enter a new game as a Darklight Wizard

1. As a Minor Artifact, the Codex is at least 25,000 GP value
2. Character thus may only be created, and possess the Codex starting at ECL 13th or later, with a WBL of 110,000, single item costs no more than 1/4 WBL.

In this case, we do better than the Ur-Priest, although an XP penalty should be factored in as per actual acquisition and use. In fact, this sort of must be done in order to decide previous professions skill ranks and feats, and whether they could have actually made a DC20 Int Check and DC30 Will Save.


Conclusions

1. Given reasonable assumptions, it's not really that much better than Ur-Priest acceleration, in terms of when it's acquired, unless it is combined with other brokenness.
2. Thought Bottle smashes the XP cost with a GP tradeoff, commonly banned item. The Codex can only be used once by a person, so no looping, I believe.
3. Character ends up with 'free' feats & skill ranks from previous profession
4. Character may potentially be Darklight Wizard 1 / PrC X, which is sort of matched by extremely liberal character rebuilding.

[linklord231]

Couldn't the Darklight Wizard use the thought bottle immediately after successfully using the Codex to return to ECL 10, thus getting 9th level spells immediately?

[Nunkuruji]

Couldn't the Darklight Wizard use the thought bottle immediately after successfully using the Codex to return to ECL 10, thus getting 9th level spells immediately?

Yep, that's an enabler, and also to a whole lot of other broken.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

BM was LoP's Dirty Trick #1.
Aberrations need a PAO, others need two.
Those PAOs are available from the local Magic Mart, of course.
And either Assume Supernatural or Metamorphic Transfer feat(s).


How did the Druid Aberration Wild Shape version work ?

[Amechra]

GUYZ, GUYZ!

U R MISIGN TEH TRU POWEH OF THE DARKNESS!

Ahem. Got some internet in my typing-box for a moment.

Anyway, just go 9 levels of Darklight Wizard, 10 of Ur Priest, and whatever for the last level.

Laugh while the universe itself kills you. Not the character, you.

For being an idiot.

[SorO_Lost]

Needs more Lightning Warrior.

[zook1shoe]

Go reaping mauler 1 for the last level, and be the first person to successfully use it

[Nytemare3701]

Go reaping mauler 1 for the last level, and be the first person to successfully use it

I had a DM that didn't know about freedom of movement and had houseruled the size difference limitation out. It was a beautiful thing.

When we told him about FoM, he took another look at reaping mauler and just said "since that invalidates the entire class, I'm going to say FoM doesn't apply to RM grapples."

[awaken_D_M_golem]

... isn't it about time somebody did a Beholder Mage handbook ?