Author Topic: Battle: Angel Summoner vs BMX Bandit  (Read 58768 times)

Offline Vasja

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Re: Battle: Angel Summoner vs BMX Bandit
« Reply #80 on: December 28, 2012, 04:47:03 PM »
There is no defined success and failure in initiative. The owner of the lower roll 'succeeds in acting second' as much as the owner of the higher roll 'succeeds in acting first'.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2012, 04:49:27 PM by Vasja »

Offline Tohron

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Re: Battle: Angel Summoner vs BMX Bandit
« Reply #81 on: December 28, 2012, 05:01:11 PM »
More importantly, an opposed check is between two opposing people - everyone rolls initiative - and some of those people may be allies.

On a different note - if the SRD is considered "Core" (the listed items include Complete Psionic, so this might not be too much of a stretch), I think you could have a Contingent dimension door on yourself or your familiar while they're carrying a  bag coated (on the inside) with Quintesscence - have it aim so that the fighter is inside the upside-down bag, and have the bag be a Shrink Item trap - this should leave the fighter shrinkwrapped in Quintessence and unable to act, before he has a chance to do anything.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2012, 05:26:09 PM by Tohron »
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Offline EjoThims

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Re: Battle: Angel Summoner vs BMX Bandit
« Reply #82 on: December 28, 2012, 05:08:27 PM »
There is no defined success and failure in initiative. The owner of the lower roll 'succeeds in acting second' as much as the owner of the higher roll 'succeeds in acting first'.

True, I can see that angle now.

I had always seen initiative as a roll-off to see who goes first, the same as many games start with. With a defined goal of acting first, success becomes clear.

I still stand by that interpretation fitting into the rules for opposed checks (I wouldn't have said it in the first place otherwise), but as it is not explicit, I must concede that it is only an argument of interpretation.

And opposition does not need to be solely between two parties (neither in definition nor is it explicitly stated in those rules), but even so, it would be a case of specific over general, as I already noted.



But the new mystery becomes what crawled into Cyclone's rear with enough ferocity to make him so arrogantly atrociously abusive over a different perspective on the unstated goal of a check? Who injured him so badly over turn order that he not only cannot even attempt to look for the reason someone might disagree with his outlook, but that he feels the need to instantly burn up a perfectly amiable thread because of it? Especially a second time, after someone else even pointed out the over reaction?

i am intrigued, CJ, by what your past on this matter holds.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Battle: Angel Summoner vs BMX Bandit
« Reply #83 on: December 28, 2012, 06:54:09 PM »
But the new mystery becomes what crawled into Cyclone's rear with enough ferocity to make him so arrogantly atrociously abusive over a different perspective on the unstated goal of a check? Who injured him so badly over turn order that he not only cannot even attempt to look for the reason someone might disagree with his outlook, but that he feels the need to instantly burn up a perfectly amiable thread because of it? Especially a second time, after someone else even pointed out the over reaction?

i am intrigued, CJ, by what your past on this matter holds.
That seems to be his typical MO, unfortunately.
I don't pee messages into the snow often , but when I do , it's in Cyrillic with Fake Viagra.  Stay frosty my friends.

Offline Cyclone Joker

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Re: Battle: Angel Summoner vs BMX Bandit
« Reply #84 on: December 29, 2012, 01:15:32 AM »
I had always seen initiative as a roll-off to see who goes first, the same as many games start with. With a defined goal of acting first, success becomes clear.
Except it isn't.
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I still stand by that interpretation fitting into the rules for opposed checks (I wouldn't have said it in the first place otherwise), but as it is not explicit, I must concede that it is only an argument of interpretation.

And opposition does not need to be solely between two parties (neither in definition nor is it explicitly stated in those rules), but even so, it would be a case of specific over general, as I already noted.
Translation: "I know I'm wrong, but I don't have the sack to admit it."

The rules are clear. There is no victory. Any claim otherwise is so idiotic, I lack the vocabulary to adequately describe it.
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But the new mystery becomes what crawled into Cyclone's rear with enough ferocity to make him so arrogantly atrociously abusive over a different perspective on the unstated goal of a check? Who injured him so badly over turn order that he not only cannot even attempt to look for the reason someone might disagree with his outlook, but that he feels the need to instantly burn up a perfectly amiable thread because of it? Especially a second time, after someone else even pointed out the over reaction?

i am intrigued, CJ, by what your past on this matter holds.
I don't have the patience for such absurd claims. The rules are so simply clear, your claim is akin to claiming fighters gain epic spellcasting as a level one bonus feat. It's absurd to the point the right to polite conversation is forfeit. It's that simple. I refuse to treat such complete ridiculousness as anything less than it is. The only possible excuse would be being AFB, which is obviously not the case, given the magical wonders of this fantastic, arcane "essardee" device.

Offline Demelain

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Re: Battle: Angel Summoner vs BMX Bandit
« Reply #85 on: December 29, 2012, 02:09:19 AM »
While I'm in the not-opposed-check camp, this seems like the sort of thing that the Sage may have commented on, at one time or another. Anyone know of an index of Sage response for 3rd Edition, similar to the 1st/2nd one?

(click to show/hide)

Offline Cyclone Joker

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Re: Battle: Angel Summoner vs BMX Bandit
« Reply #86 on: December 29, 2012, 08:21:38 AM »
Do you understand how much of a douche you're being?
Yes.
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It would require less effort on your part to cut the offensive shitposting out, and everyone would be happier for it, but you persist. Did a char-op poster hurt you, driving you to take it out on the community? Are you just this big of an ass?
But it would be less effective. People respond better to negative reinforcement, and shame is one of the most effective. Thus, this will hopefully improve his behavior in regards to idiocy like that in the long run.
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Regardless, the board rules are pretty clear that the level of jackass you're on is meant to be tolerated in only short doses, and you've been maintaining it pretty consistently.
I wasn't aware you had been promoted to mod.
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You can have a discussion without resorting to ad hominem.
Translation: "I really don't understand informal logic, and just think it makes me sound smart."
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It isn't hard. If you can't manage that, stop posting
How about no.
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you're wasting your time,
Isn't that what everyone here is doing? When it comes to it, gaming, arguing on the internet, and really most of the things the people here enjoy don't really have sufficient value to not be considered a waste of time.
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and it only pushes people to skip your posts, anyway.
And, don't particularly care. The fact that I am right speaks for itself. If refusing to tolerate people being absurdly, idiotically wrong offends some people, they're generally the type I don't care about anyways. Anyways, at least I'm not so condescending as to accept someone being wrong, or believing that they're entitled to objectively wrong beliefs. Tolerance is rude. Far more so than I am.

Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: Battle: Angel Summoner vs BMX Bandit
« Reply #87 on: December 29, 2012, 09:14:37 AM »
CJ, while you are completely entitled to act however you please, I would like to bring up a counterargument or two.

But it would be less effective. People respond better to negative reinforcement, and shame is one of the most effective. Thus, this will hopefully improve his behavior in regards to idiocy like that in the long run.

There's a certain level of civility expected of people when having a conversation. One you are not meeting, which is disrespectful towards the entire community, not just the person you flame.

Isn't that what everyone here is doing? When it comes to it, gaming, arguing on the internet, and really most of the things the people here enjoy don't really have sufficient value to not be considered a waste of time.

That's quite pretentious of you, isn't it? I game with my therapy group, as it's a bonding exercise. I debate and theorycraft on this forum to reduce my stress levels so I can function, and your final point is a direct attack on the character of every member of this board.

If refusing to tolerate people being absurdly, idiotically wrong offends some people, they're generally the type I don't care about anyways. Anyways, at least I'm not so condescending as to accept someone being wrong, or believing that they're entitled to objectively wrong beliefs. Tolerance is rude. Far more so than I am.

Everyone is entitled to their personal beliefs, no matter how wrong they are. What they are NOT entitled to is pushing them onto others. If a person honestly believes 2+2=5, then they are welcome to live their entire lives that way, so long as it does not negatively impact other people. This is unlikely to the point of absurdity, but the point stands. Note that we punish people for their actual crimes, not their views. I'm aware that you consider the mere presence of someone who is ignorant to be offensive. Tolerance is the only reason we as humans aren't killing each other over the smallest slights, so I remind you, not as a moderator or any other position of power, but as a human being worth no more or less than you are, to respect the board rules and the people you are speaking to. They have just as much right to be here as you do, and your abuse is not only unwarranted, but expressly forbidden as a requirement of visiting the boards.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 09:16:36 AM by Nytemare3701 »

Offline muktidata

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Re: Battle: Angel Summoner vs BMX Bandit
« Reply #88 on: December 29, 2012, 09:20:17 AM »
Could you guys start a separate thread and maybe port some of this crap over to it? I'm interested in making sure Necro doesn't lose a Fighter vs Wizard duel.
I appreciate the logical, cool-headed responses and the lack of profanity displayed by our community.

Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: Battle: Angel Summoner vs BMX Bandit
« Reply #89 on: December 29, 2012, 09:22:32 AM »
Could you guys start a separate thread? I'm interested in making sure Necro doesn't lose a Fighter vs Wizard duel.

Actually, I'm done now.

As for the fighter vs wizard, Any single point of failure on a fighter makes him completely useless.

Unluck makes this easier.

Offline Arcanist

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Re: Battle: Angel Summoner vs BMX Bandit
« Reply #90 on: December 29, 2012, 09:32:00 AM »
(click to show/hide)

I do believe the point as been sent home, but eh... Maybe a little TLC might put him in a good enough mood to calm on down :)

Unluck makes this easier.

OP said Core/SRD spells only :(

Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: Battle: Angel Summoner vs BMX Bandit
« Reply #91 on: December 29, 2012, 10:18:14 AM »
OP said Core/SRD spells only :(

D&D 3.5 Core & Complete Books Only is what the first post says. Did I miss something?

Offline muktidata

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Re: Battle: Angel Summoner vs BMX Bandit
« Reply #92 on: December 29, 2012, 10:22:23 AM »
I'd avoid targeted debuffs. The best thing to do is steal a page from Lycanthropemancer's duel. Don't actually cast anything on the guy. Assume his safes are infinite and that his immunities are innumerable. Just put yourself out of reach and summon stuff he could never hope to take down.
I appreciate the logical, cool-headed responses and the lack of profanity displayed by our community.

Offline Arcanist

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Re: Battle: Angel Summoner vs BMX Bandit
« Reply #93 on: December 29, 2012, 10:53:24 AM »
OP said Core/SRD spells only :(

D&D 3.5 Core & Complete Books Only is what the first post says. Did I miss something?

Floops~ I had a flash back to another challenge, sorry about that :D

Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: Battle: Angel Summoner vs BMX Bandit
« Reply #94 on: December 29, 2012, 11:37:46 AM »
I'd avoid targeted debuffs. The best thing to do is steal a page from Lycanthropemancer's duel. Don't actually cast anything on the guy. Assume his safes are infinite and that his immunities are innumerable. Just put yourself out of reach and summon stuff he could never hope to take down.


Offline Tohron

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Re: Battle: Angel Summoner vs BMX Bandit
« Reply #95 on: December 29, 2012, 03:28:23 PM »
On a different note - if the SRD is considered "Core" (the listed items include Complete Psionic, so this might not be too much of a stretch), I think you could have a Contingent dimension door on yourself or your familiar while they're carrying a  bag coated (on the inside) with Quintesscence - have it aim so that the upside-down bag covers the fighter afterwards, and have the bag be a Shrink Item trap - this should leave the fighter shrinkwrapped in Quintessence and unable to act, before he has a chance to do anything.

Sorry if I'm just bringing up something nobody's interested in but I still haven't heard any comments on my Quintessence shrinkwrap suggestion -  unless I'm missing something, it basically wins the fight before this whole Initiative debate even comes up.
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Offline Cyclone Joker

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Re: Battle: Angel Summoner vs BMX Bandit
« Reply #96 on: December 29, 2012, 05:41:52 PM »
But it would be less effective. People respond better to negative reinforcement, and shame is one of the most effective. Thus, this will hopefully improve his behavior in regards to idiocy like that in the long run.
There's a certain level of civility expected of people when having a conversation. One you are not meeting, which is disrespectful towards the entire community, not just the person you flame.
And if anyone wants to have a civil conversation, I am more than happy to oblige. However, repeatedly insisting something equivalent in idiocy to 2+2=5,000,000 forfeits that option.
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Isn't that what everyone here is doing? When it comes to it, gaming, arguing on the internet, and really most of the things the people here enjoy don't really have sufficient value to not be considered a waste of time.
That's quite pretentious of you, isn't it? I game with my therapy group, as it's a bonding exercise. I debate and theorycraft on this forum to reduce my stress levels so I can function, and your final point is a direct attack on the character of every member of this board.
Translation: "I don't like the truth! It makes me sad!  :sobbing"

I game with friends. I enjoy theorycraft. Enjoyment or bonding or whatever doesn't change the fact that there's very little of value in gaming. It doesn't end cancer. It doesn't make you more economically sound. It doesn't contribute anything to the whole of humanity. It is, at the core of it, a waste of time. If the simple truth of it offends you, well, I'm really not seeing any reason to care.
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If refusing to tolerate people being absurdly, idiotically wrong offends some people, they're generally the type I don't care about anyways. Anyways, at least I'm not so condescending as to accept someone being wrong, or believing that they're entitled to objectively wrong beliefs. Tolerance is rude. Far more so than I am.
Everyone is entitled to their personal beliefs, no matter how wrong they are. What they are NOT entitled to is pushing them onto others. If a person honestly believes 2+2=5, then they are welcome to live their entire lives that way, so long as it does not negatively impact other people.
Ignorance in the populace has a negative impact on everyone they're connected to. So, no, one is not entitled to the right to be so openly wrong. And, by any claim you make that they do, I can use to show the right to mock them as deserved
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This is unlikely to the point of absurdity, but the point stands. Note that we punish people for their actual crimes, not their views.
"We?" "We" as in most civilized countries? Yes. We as in people? No. If you saw someone in full SS gear and Aryan Nation material going door preaching about the "master race" and the evils of the Jews, or whatever, would you have or show any respect for them? I sure as hell wouldn't. Young Earthers? Anti-vaccers? No.

All views are not equal. Treating them as such is wrong, both factually and morally.
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I'm aware that you consider the mere presence of someone who is ignorant to be offensive.
No, I consider the mere presence of someone who doesn't listen to fact and reason to be offensive. If he had simply acknowledged his error, that would have been the end of it.
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Tolerance is the only reason we as humans aren't killing each other over the smallest slights, so I remind you, not as a moderator or any other position of power, but as a human being worth no more or less than you are, to respect the board rules and the people you are speaking to.
Ah, another problem. The simple concept of everyone being equal simple due to their being human is absurd. Some people are simply more inherently valuable than others. This is a simple fact. Any claim that I, or anyone here is more, or even not significantly less valuable than someone such as Michio Kaku, Hawking, or anyone else of that caliber, is absurd.

Also, argument to the absurd. Nice try, though.
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They have just as much right to be here as you do, and your abuse is not only unwarranted, but expressly forbidden as a requirement of visiting the boards.
And, again, I wasn't aware you were promoted. Hey, maybe I'll get the job next.
Yes.
Thats good sign, it means that you can stop :)
Can does not mean will. Also, I acknowledged that I knew how much of a douche I was being, not that I actually was being one.
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But it would be less effective. People respond better to negative reinforcement, and shame is one of the most effective. Thus, this will hopefully improve his behavior in regards to idiocy like that in the long run.
That is a very interesting ego you have there to believe that people care enough about your opinions, stances, beliefs, etc. to feel "shame" because you scolded them for being "wrong". I'm not sure how you expect to improve his behavior (I mean, do you expect him to learn how to "not to be wrong"?)
Quite simply, the fact that others agree with me should cement my correctness in his mind. Thus, with that and the acerbic nature of my post, it should stick with him for a while. Either that, or he's just totally incapable of listening to reason, in which case, I didn't exactly waste much time, and know that he's simply not worth bothering with in the future, unless I am simply bored.
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Translation: "I really don't understand informal logic, and just think it makes me sound smart."
Translation: "I don't even know what informal logic actually is, but I'm going to say it because it makes me look smart"  :) (See? other people can put words in your mouth as well!)
Except I was correct and you aren't. That's the key difference.
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You are trying to argue that he is wrong and that he should feel shameful for being wrong, that is childish to say the least and the fact that you decide to patronize another person of which you have no idea about for not reacting the way you expected say a lot about your character (more specifically that you have an ego 100 miles wide).
I wasn't arguing that he should feel shame, I was attempting to induce feelings of shame. Most people respond better to emotion than to reason, especially the ones with fact problems.

And the knowledge I have about him, or lack thereof, doesn't change or justify the absurdity the whole thing.
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How about no.
And that is a valid choice for you to make, just as likely it is for him to have his own opinion of you (that you are a "douche").
And I can live with that.
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Isn't that what everyone here is doing? When it comes to it, gaming, arguing on the internet, and really most of the things the people here enjoy don't really have sufficient value to not be considered a waste of time.
That is a very nihilistic point of view.
I prefer to think about it as a rational, objective point of view.
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From an external point of view, everything that we do is a waste of time, since at some point we will expire and die, thus making our efforts meaningless as a whole. Our efforts to advance our fellow man are an extension to this since eventually as a whole, the Human race will eventually die out (perhaps through Evolution or through some calamity, who knows?).
And you're missing the bigger point. Yes, I'll die, but so what? What matters is history. IMPACT! Darius I. Alexander the Great. Hammuabi. They are all remembered, and their influences are felt today. Who cares if they're dead? Oh, sure, humanity might die out in a few thousand years, but if those thousand years are glorious, and we leave our mark on the universe for millions of years to come, what's wrong with it?
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And, don't particularly care. The fact that I am right speaks for itself. If refusing to tolerate people being absurdly, idiotically wrong offends some people, they're generally the type I don't care about anyways. Anyways, at least I'm not so condescending as to accept someone being wrong, or believing that they're entitled to objectively wrong beliefs. Tolerance is rude. Far more so than I am.
Hey, it's your life. You can care or not. It all starts at a choice and a consequence for that choice. You can argue that people that are wrong should be burned at the stakes and nobody would be able to stop you. I for one would tolerate you, because you are doing your job as a sentient lifeform (atleast from my perspective) which is making choices  :)
And here we have another absurd stretch. Nice try, though.
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Regardless of all of this it is kind of laughable that you are upset that he refuses to admit that he is wrong knowing full well that in that in his exact scenario if you were proven wrong you would fight tooth and nail to prove that you are correct no matter how feeble your attempts would be, but eh... I guess that is your choice :p
Nope. See, facts are facts. That's the beauty of them. If I were to be proven in error, or shown I missed something, I'd be glad about it, as it means I won't be wrong in the future. But for factual matters, especially ones of this plain simplicity, there is no excuse.
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If you don't mind me asking this, but whenever you incorrectly answered anything in school, were you the type of student that flipped out and cried about it? Just asking...
And now we run into the attacks. Nice, classy, and not at all hypocritical.  :rolleyes

Offline Agita

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Re: Battle: Angel Summoner vs BMX Bandit
« Reply #97 on: December 29, 2012, 06:39:16 PM »
This has gone on for too long as it is.

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Regardless, the board rules are pretty clear that the level of jackass you're on is meant to be tolerated in only short doses, and you've been maintaining it pretty consistently.
I wasn't aware you had been promoted to mod.
Demelain hasn't, but that doesn't mean they're wrong. Tone it down.

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You can have a discussion without resorting to ad hominem.
Translation: "I really don't understand informal logic, and just think it makes me sound smart."
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It isn't hard. If you can't manage that, stop posting
How about no.
How about yes. Take a step back, cool your heels, and consider whether you prefer defending your position in a civil manner or not at all.

Do you understand how much of a douche you're being?
Yes.
The primary rule of these boards is "don't be a douche". Do the math. Stop being a douche.
Please send private messages regarding board matters to Forum Staff instead.

Offline muktidata

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Re: Battle: Angel Summoner vs BMX Bandit
« Reply #98 on: December 29, 2012, 09:49:01 PM »
I'd avoid targeted debuffs. The best thing to do is steal a page from Lycanthropemancer's duel. Don't actually cast anything on the guy. Assume his safes are infinite and that his immunities are innumerable. Just put yourself out of reach and summon stuff he could never hope to take down.

(click to show/hide)

Well, assuming infinite actions are off the table, because you can use your limited actions to better effect. You get better quality and quantity with certain spells. And, like I said, I'd expect crazy-high saves and a plethora resistances; not to mention a Rod of Absorption. I'd also expect an Antimagic Field to come running up on our friend, Necro. But hilariously, there's infinite rounds for buffing. So he has time to Gate in ridiculous creatures and create an impenetrable fortress for himself and have a ton of contingencies/BFC stuff up.
I appreciate the logical, cool-headed responses and the lack of profanity displayed by our community.

Offline Demelain

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Re: Battle: Angel Summoner vs BMX Bandit
« Reply #99 on: December 30, 2012, 06:47:48 AM »
Battle is tomorrow. What have you decided to go with, if i may ask?