Battle: Angel Summoner vs BMX Bandit

[Kethrian]

Such a simple strategy, and effective, too.  But I really like how, even if he did cheat in that first battle, you still spanked him handily.  Shows just how big the gap is between 1st and 5th tier....

[brujon]

What's I'm still confused about is from the beginning of this thread I was under the impression he had some kind of super awesome archer build he was going to throw at you?

I think he may have revised that after I laughed at and called his "I'll be placing 10,000 magical traps on each arrow head" scheme egregious. I never pressed the issue afterwards as he is an emotionally sensitive & competitive guy.

There's nothing preventing you from doing it by RAW, but if were really going by RAW here, you could've just become pun-pun anyway. Still, you should've let him use it, and beat him even though he used it, for fun and games.

[zugschef]

There's nothing preventing you from doing it by RAW, but if were really going by RAW here, you could've just become pun-pun anyway. Still, you should've let him use it, and beat him even though he used it, for fun and games.

core and completes only 

[SorO_Lost]

1st Combat
I lost initiative somehow, I suspect he was cheating. Even though I was invisible and there was no way he could know where I was he charged straight at me because he could meta-see my figure on the battle map. He used mordenkainen's disjunction from some intelligent magic sword he "created fairly and by the rules." I lost all my buffs but then it was my turn.

I moved 5 feet, casted time stop for 7 rounds of action. I gated in 4 gold dragons and sunk into the ground ethereal.

He quit.


2nd & 3rd Combat
I won initiative both times by an incredibly huge margin.

I moved 5 feet, casted time stop for 7 rounds of action. I gated in 4 gold dragons and sunk into the ground ethereal.

He quit.

If it had been me a couple of months ago, I would have quit against the 4 dragons too. I mean, the decided on rules banned calling in buddies to help you win pretty much means you didn't sign up to beat the Monster Manual 

However, that being said. I'm starting to welcome this Gate tactic used by the unimaginative shortcomings of failures. I mean, sure this Fighter guy was dumb enough to charge his opponent to cast Disjuction off his magic item - and there is at least three rule breaks in that statement btw - only to watch the Wizard fail each and every single Will Save against a magic item (). But let's go into this Gate usage for a moment.

Specifically, fights like this are centered around who doesn't read the rules. Fighter can't see the difference between the two classes and typically is a moron. Wizard can't do anything less than cheating D&D's rules or the rules of the fight (recall ly's 1.5+ mil post? Yeah, Gate Dependant too). So lets take this aspect of favorable readings and put a positive spin on it in order to come up with a very useful counter.

Per the rules, there is nothing saying a Called creature doesn't give XP. The DMG notes Special Abilities are ignored and as you know the DMGII & MMV make it plain as day spellcasting is not a Special Ability (as if chapter 20 in the PHB wasn't enough already). Sage on the other hand goes into the method of how such a spell may or may not. Under his example, Summoning outside of combat gives XP and Calling certainly does as well, even if the monster joins you and you still have not regained the spell slot. So by RAW and by Intent, someone trying to kill you with Called creatures gives XP (through obviously battling your own is the same as sparring).

And lets take the prime example of usage. Calling a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon. The monster is obviously superior to the Wizard who summoned in all but one aspect. The Dragon is cannot be unique, unless you want Diplomacy checks with your handicap of interrupting this creature's life to fight for you (ie dragon eats you). This nameless stat-sheet-less is a hobbled together monstrosity of DM notes, and not the all powerful super dragon currently under the effect of 27 spell buffs with 19 specific magical items. For an ubercharger, it's a single attack source of XP that is intrinsically weaker than the PC ran Wizard.

So how much XP?
Per the 3.5 DMG (not the 3.0 ELH) the CR 27 TD with worth 64,000XP. Since leveling once per session is a suggestion and a metagame aspect rather than any real rules. If we are to continue this simulation fantasy game the creature that killed the Called Dragon needs to level. They are now a 23rd level Character, which is enough to obtain to Epic Feats and gain some cool Class related Special Abilities. In contrast, the Spellcaster, under a standardized and very much mentioned no extra XP rule, is 19th level which caused further sacrifice of Spells Per Day and Class Abilities (such as that indigo veil).

TL;DR: Called creatures gives XP because A) RAW is silent and B) GAME RULES -> FAQ says so. Gating a creature in costs you XP lowering your level which makes you voluntarily give up stuff you like while in the same action potentially giving your opponent a chance to go up to three levels during combat. Which creates this four level gap between the two of you.

[Necrosnoop110]

1st Combat
I lost initiative somehow, I suspect he was cheating. Even though I was invisible and there was no way he could know where I was he charged straight at me because he could meta-see my figure on the battle map. He used mordenkainen's disjunction from some intelligent magic sword he "created fairly and by the rules." I lost all my buffs but then it was my turn.

I moved 5 feet, casted time stop for 7 rounds of action. I gated in 4 gold dragons and sunk into the ground ethereal.

He quit.


2nd & 3rd Combat
I won initiative both times by an incredibly huge margin.

I moved 5 feet, casted time stop for 7 rounds of action. I gated in 4 gold dragons and sunk into the ground ethereal.

He quit.

If it had been me a couple of months ago, I would have quit against the 4 dragons too. I mean, the decided on rules banned calling in buddies to help you win pretty much means you didn't sign up to beat the Monster Manual 

However, that being said. I'm starting to welcome this Gate tactic used by the unimaginative shortcomings of failures. I mean, sure this Fighter guy was dumb enough to charge his opponent to cast Disjuction off his magic item - and there is at least three rule breaks in that statement btw - only to watch the Wizard fail each and every single Will Save against a magic item (). But let's go into this Gate usage for a moment.

Specifically, fights like this are centered around who doesn't read the rules. Fighter can't see the difference between the two classes and typically is a moron. Wizard can't do anything less than cheating D&D's rules or the rules of the fight (recall ly's 1.5+ mil post? Yeah, Gate Dependant too). So lets take this aspect of favorable readings and put a positive spin on it in order to come up with a very useful counter.

Per the rules, there is nothing saying a Called creature doesn't give XP. The DMG notes Special Abilities are ignored and as you know the DMGII & MMV make it plain as day spellcasting is not a Special Ability (as if chapter 20 in the PHB wasn't enough already). Sage on the other hand goes into the method of how such a spell may or may not. Under his example, Summoning outside of combat gives XP and Calling certainly does as well, even if the monster joins you and you still have not regained the spell slot. So by RAW and by Intent, someone trying to kill you with Called creatures gives XP (through obviously battling your own is the same as sparring).

And lets take the prime example of usage. Calling a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon. The monster is obviously superior to the Wizard who summoned in all but one aspect. The Dragon is cannot be unique, unless you want Diplomacy checks with your handicap of interrupting this creature's life to fight for you (ie dragon eats you). This nameless stat-sheet-less is a hobbled together monstrosity of DM notes, and not the all powerful super dragon currently under the effect of 27 spell buffs with 19 specific magical items. For an ubercharger, it's a single attack source of XP that is intrinsically weaker than the PC ran Wizard.

So how much XP?
Per the 3.5 DMG (not the 3.0 ELH) the CR 27 TD with worth 64,000XP. Since leveling once per session is a suggestion and a metagame aspect rather than any real rules. If we are to continue this simulation fantasy game the creature that killed the Called Dragon needs to level. They are now a 23rd level Character, which is enough to obtain to Epic Feats and gain some cool Class related Special Abilities. In contrast, the Spellcaster, under a standardized and very much mentioned no extra XP rule, is 19th level which caused further sacrifice of Spells Per Day and Class Abilities (such as that indigo veil).

TL;DR: Called creatures gives XP because A) RAW is silent and B) GAME RULES -> FAQ says so. Gating a creature in costs you XP lowering your level which makes you voluntarily give up stuff you like while in the same action potentially giving your opponent a chance to go up to three levels during combat. Which creates this four level gap between the two of you.

(1) Please do not be offended but I can only just barely understand what you are saying. I suspect it's a language barrier and as dummy who can only speak one language I give you full props. So I'm not really sure what you are getting at.

(2) If your problem was summoning/calling then there was in fact no ban on doing so, only on pre-game leadership, cohorts, and armies. If your problem is XP drain (if that is an issue) couldn't that be gotten around by using scrolls? (8,825gp/Scroll)

(3) We completely reset after each combat (so nothing transferred over from previous engagements) it was as if we were starting anew each time.

Peace,
Necro

[zugschef]

And lets take the prime example of usage. Calling a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon. The monster is obviously superior to the Wizard who summoned in all but one aspect. The Dragon is cannot be unique, unless you want Diplomacy checks with your handicap of interrupting this creature's life to fight for you (ie dragon eats you). This nameless stat-sheet-less is a hobbled together monstrosity of DM notes, and not the all powerful super dragon currently under the effect of 27 spell buffs with 19 specific magical items. For an ubercharger, it's a single attack source of XP that is intrinsically weaker than the PC ran Wizard.

just call in solars. done.

[Concerned Ninja Citizen]

SorO, isn't your arguement about XP and leveling predicated on the fighter successfully killing one or more of the dragons?

Something which did not and would not have happened in any of the itterations of the fight. Unless you're contending that a medium sized fighter can take on 4 great wyrm dragons in an antimagic field.

[zugschef]

SorO, isn't your arguement about XP and leveling predicated on the fighter successfully killing one or more of the dragons?

Something which did not and would not have happened in any of the itterations of the fight. Unless you're contending that a medium sized fighter can take on 4 great wyrm dragons in an antimagic field.

and you would get the xp at the end of the encounter which includes the wizard because challenge rating results from all enemies combined. this is not baldur's gate where you drop one of several foes, go up a level and resume the fight.

[SorO_Lost]

SorO, isn't your arguement about XP and leveling predicated on the fighter successfully killing one or more of the dragons?

Something which did not and would not have happened in any of the itterations of the fight. Unless you're contending that a medium sized fighter can take on 4 great wyrm dragons in an antimagic field.

Actually yes I am.

Because
A. You don't have to take 4 on at once, this particular fight used four but not all do or will and killing one in a charge (or other op trick) does the trick. Three others are even more XP at the cost of actions. And if you. the Wizard, wanting to bide time for actions. Is it really in your best interest to throw XP at your opponent over recasting Time Stop or Celerity?
B. No one said antimagic in that fight but yes it could be a problem. Since the spell centers on the caster, each TD would need to cast it. And then they are reduced to bats with 5 natural weapons and the ability to deal less damage by shallowing instead of fearsome dragons. A Fighter on the other hand obtains a chunk of his ubercharging as an Extraordinary ability and Martial Study is a Bonus Feat for them. It is very possible to come out on top.
C. Yes it banks on the Fighter being able to kill a TD. It's ripped out of the MM and randomly generated. No prebuffs unless noted, no Wizard picks the spell list, and recall this Dragon isn't an ally. The larger you deem the randomized table to be used, the more chances of it just breaking free. Either through Protection from X, per SRD's hyperlink just use Mind Blank, or even Feat/Archtype access to IHS, and more could be found. But if you would love to argue a PC could never kill a TD, specially one incapable of escaping Gate, you can. I may bookmark and quote your posts later in your life through but don't let that limit you.

and you would get the xp at the end of the encounter which includes the wizard because challenge rating results from all enemies combined. this is not baldur's gate where you drop one of several foes, go up a level and resume the fight.

Rules say when you defeat monsters. "end of encounter" is a paperwork shortcut most, if not all, DMs employ. There is a huge difference between the two, the latter isn't even qualified to be called a house rule.

[phaedrusxy]

I don't think Antimagic was used at all in this fight. That was in the old thread by Lycanthromancer. While it might be possible to build a fighter who could take on four great wyrm gold dragons at once, even if you completely forget that they cast as 19th level sorcerers, I doubt said fighter can kill them all in the same round and also kill the wizard. That is also at the extreme end of optimization for a fighter, while pretty much any vanilla wizard 20 (even core only) can do exactly what this one did, without even having to think too hard about it.

Also: Core + Completes. No ToB. You still have Power Attack + Shock Trooper, though, but I'm not really sure how you could charge all four dragons in the same round without more books.

I'm not even touching the idea that they can somehow break free from the Gate spell...

[Concerned Ninja Citizen]

I thought the strategy used involved the "shapechange familiar into beholder" tactic, with the Beholder then hovering over fighter and dragons using its antimagic eye, but it's not mentioned in the post so I guess not.

I had also understood that the dragons surrounded the fighter while Time Stop was still up and grappled him as soon as it went down. That would kinda let out any strategy involving charging from the fighter.

[zugschef]

Rules say when you defeat monsters. "end of encounter" is a paperwork shortcut most, if not all, DMs employ. There is a huge difference between the two, the latter isn't even qualified to be called a house rule.

according to the rules fighting against a cr27 dragon four times in a row and then a 20th level wizard, is not the same as fighting these five at once.

[brujon]

Rules say when you defeat monsters. "end of encounter" is a paperwork shortcut most, if not all, DMs employ. There is a huge difference between the two, the latter isn't even qualified to be called a house rule.

according to the rules fighting against a cr27 dragon four times in a row and then a 20th level wizard, is not the same as fighting these five at once.

Actually the DMG says that successive fights with no rest in-between them can be treated as a single encounter, although i wouldn't be able to provide you with the exact quote, i'm pretty sure that it says exactly that.

[oslecamo]

(2) If your problem was summoning/calling then there was in fact no ban on doing so, only on pre-game leadership, cohorts, and armies. If your problem is XP drain (if that is an issue) couldn't that be gotten around by using scrolls? (8,825gp/Scroll)

(3) We completely reset after each combat (so nothing transferred over from previous engagements) it was as if we were starting anew each time.

So you're admiting a rogue with UMD would've performed as well as your wizard?

This is, by those standards, it doesn't matter what class you use at all, as long as you win iniative and have a bunch of time stop/gate scrolls. Or just skip the scrolls and use candles of invocation that are cheaper and don't need UMD at all.

[littha]

Rules say when you defeat monsters. "end of encounter" is a paperwork shortcut most, if not all, DMs employ. There is a huge difference between the two, the latter isn't even qualified to be called a house rule.

according to the rules fighting against a cr27 dragon four times in a row and then a 20th level wizard, is not the same as fighting these five at once.

Actually the DMG says that successive fights with no rest in-between them can be treated as a single encounter, although i wouldn't be able to provide you with the exact quote, i'm pretty sure that it says exactly that.

If they are treated as a single encounter the CR is so high that the XP reward is in DM fiat territory (Level +8)

Note this however:

Do not award XP for creatures that enemies summon or otherwise add to their forces with magical powers

I am pretty sure Gate is adding to their forces with magical powers...

[zugschef]

Rules say when you defeat monsters. "end of encounter" is a paperwork shortcut most, if not all, DMs employ. There is a huge difference between the two, the latter isn't even qualified to be called a house rule.

according to the rules fighting against a cr27 dragon four times in a row and then a 20th level wizard, is not the same as fighting these five at once.

Actually the DMG says that successive fights with no rest in-between them can be treated as a single encounter, although i wouldn't be able to provide you with the exact quote, i'm pretty sure that it says exactly that.

that's not relevant in this case. what is relevant is the fact that you can't hand out xp before the entire encounter is finished. and killing one dragon obviously doesn't end the encounter in this case, because there are still three dragons and a wizard left.

[edit]

Note this however:

Do not award XP for creatures that enemies summon or otherwise add to their forces with magical powers

I am pretty sure Gate is adding to their forces with magical powers...

well that settles it then.

[Necrosnoop110]

(2) If your problem was summoning/calling then there was in fact no ban on doing so, only on pre-game leadership, cohorts, and armies. If your problem is XP drain (if that is an issue) couldn't that be gotten around by using scrolls? (8,825gp/Scroll)

(3) We completely reset after each combat (so nothing transferred over from previous engagements) it was as if we were starting anew each time.

So you're admiting a rogue with UMD would've performed as well as your wizard?

This is, by those standards, it doesn't matter what class you use at all, as long as you win iniative and have a bunch of time stop/gate scrolls. Or just skip the scrolls and use candles of invocation that are cheaper and don't need UMD at all.

In a certain sense yes, in a certain sense no. Within the limits of this particular engagement and the rules followed (setting, books allowed, fighter vs wizard, etc.) and with this particular tactic "Gate Spell:Dragons + "Hide," then yes any character with sufficient access to those spells from scrolls could have replicated what my wizard did. However, if this were in a real game setting I would not be so quick to grant you that any class will perform as well as a wizard. Also, if this fight would have been against another caster or partial-caster then just old any class with UMD may not have worked. Another complication is the breadth of meta-magic, prestige class abilities, and pre-fight shenanigans allowed. Further, if we would have banned scrolls my wizard still would have won. 

This engagement was about a non-theoretically optimized fighter vs a non-theoretically optimized wizard. I didn't even need to employ all of the tactics that phaedrusxy & others suggested ... I just followed the basic script and won handily.

[bruceleeroy]

I wouldn't even call that winning. A pvp encounter so unbalanced isn't even a fight. 'Sides, the topic has been hashed about a billion times in the last 13 years, so the only thing of note here is that there are still players out there who don't know how inherently unbalanced the game is after level 7 or so.

It would be far more interesting to see a similar matchup at level 3 or so, where player ingenuity is vastly more important, and the randomness of the dice is still in play. Yes, the scales are still heavily in the wizard's favor, but obviously, the guy running the wizard isn't the one being challenged.

[SorO_Lost]

On my phone so its impossible to really reply., but I already covered the dragons are worth XP. EG your quoted text says SUMMON, not CALL. Please keep up, even the FAQ agrees with me and that is offical rules over forum opinion. As for no xp till end I guess i need to do some more reading but the XP section its self very much says when the monster is defeated.

[Necrosnoop110]

"You may wish to award experience points at the end of a session to enable players to advance their characters in level if they have enough experience points. Alternatively, you may wish to give out XP awards at the beginning of the game session following the one in which the characters earned it." DMG p36

This would seem to indicate that the default time for awarding experience and leveling up is either at the end of, or at the beginning of adventures. Which would mean leveling up is done at the session level, and not done at the instant it is "earned" or even at the encounter level.

Peace,
Necro