Battle: Angel Summoner vs BMX Bandit

[Concerned Ninja Citizen]

On my phone so its impossible to really reply., but I already covered the dragons are worth XP. EG your quoted text says SUMMON, not CALL. Please keep up, even the FAQ agrees with me and that is offical rules over forum opinion. As for no xp till end I guess i need to do some more reading but the XP section its self very much says when the monster is defeated.

"or otherwise add to their forces with magical powers"

Do you have an arguement for how gated creatures are not "added to [their] forces with magical powers"?

[Bauglir]

StP Erudite uses it, so it's forces added through psionic powers.

[Concerned Ninja Citizen]

If you're going to get that nitpicky with it then it says "magical" as in the descriptive term rather than "magic" which has a game meaning.  Psionics are not "magic" (unless transparency says they are) but they are decidedly "magical."

[Kethrian]

You want nit-picky?  Specific trumps general.  The rules you are quoting are general (magical effects), while SorO is quoting specific (spells with the calling descriptor). 

[linklord231]

On my phone so its impossible to really reply., but I already covered the dragons are worth XP. EG your quoted text says SUMMON, not CALL. Please keep up, even the FAQ agrees with me and that is offical rules over forum opinion. As for no xp till end I guess i need to do some more reading but the XP section its self very much says when the monster is defeated.

Actually, the FAQ doesn't agree with you.  The gist of the big column on pg 114 is that if the creature is summoned/called/whatever during combat, as a direct result of another creature's actions, it doesn't count towards the CR of the encounter.  If the wizard had gated in 4 dragons prior to combat starting, even if he used his own spell slots, the Sage recommends they give half XP.  But, it was during combat, so they don't count. 

[oslecamo]

This engagement was about a non-theoretically optimized fighter vs a non-theoretically optimized wizard. I didn't even need to employ all of the tactics that phaedrusxy & others suggested ... I just followed the basic script and won handily.

Basic script being ignoring the game rules. Your wizard had neither extra exp or scrolls. He just casted gate a bunch of times while following the spell rules that were convenient to him at the moment. If this was any kind of official competition, your character would've lost simply because you didn't bother following the books.

This is, satisfy my curiosity, if the wizard's advantage is so overwhelming, couldn't you actually follow the game rules? Having to cheat to win only proves you weren't confident at all in your character's odds of victory to start with.

[dipolartech]

what rules are not being followed by his routine?

[betrayor]

I suppose that he means that the wizard shouldn't had been able to cast gate 4 times because he wouldn't have the 4000 xp to spare,
but that depends on if the characters had only enough xp to be 20 level or if the had more........

[SorO_Lost]

Actually, the FAQ doesn't agree with you. 

Do characters receive experience for killing a summoned monster? What about undead created with animate dead or an outsider called with planar ally?

As a general rule, any creature whose presence on the battlefield is a direct result of another creature using one of its special abilities (such as summoning) during the battle doesn’t grant XP to characters defeating it. This is because the monster is counted as part of the challenge provided by the summoning monster. A pit fiend’s Challenge Rating (and thus the XP reward granted for defeating him) already takes into account the fact that he can summon allies; without that ability, he’d be worth less XP.
Spellcasting is not the part of the "Special Ability" mechanic, nor is a [Calling] spell a Summon.

However, there are plenty of situations where a DM should make exceptions to this general rule. Any time that a creature can bring an ally into play without reducing the resources it otherwise brings to the fight (or well outside of combat) you should strongly consider awarding XP for defeating that ally. Let’s look at a few examples to see how this might work in play.
Indeed, lets look at these Spell based examples.

Example 1: Over the course of many days, a powerful necromancer stocks his lair with undead created via spells. When the PCs fight the necromancer and these undead minions, the necromancer has his full array of spells, so the act of creating these undead hasn’t reduced the challenge he provides. Thus, the Sage recommends awarding full XP for defeating the undead.
This is minion creation & full rest.
IE like the Wizard Dominated the Dragons prior to combat and teleported them it.
Result: Full XP.

Example 2: The same necromancer is on the run, knowing the PCs aren’t far behind. He spends some of his precious daily allotment of spells to animate a few zombies, only minutes before the PCs bust down his door and attack. That’s a lot more like summoning, since the creation of the undead represents a direct drain on the necromancer’s immediately available resources. Still, he doesn’t have to spend any rounds of combat casting the spells, so it’s not quite the same. The Sage recommends awarding one-half XP for defeating the undead.
This is minion creation & no rest, done seconds outside of combat.
IE Time Stop, where you are sort of in combat but can't actually combat each other.
Result: 1/2 XP.

Example 3: An evil cleric uses lesser planar ally to call a succubus to serve him as a spy for 7 days, and sends her up against the PCs (without being present himself). The Sage recommends awarding full XP for defeating the succubus. If the PCs then track down and defeat the evil cleric before he’s able to prepare spells again, it’s tempting to reduce the XP award for the cleric by a little bit (since he’s down one 4th level spell), but it’s probably not worth the effort.
This is minion creation by using a [Calling] spell & no rest.
IE Gating in a monster.
Result: full XP.

tl;dr: Every single spell example is not [Summon] based and awards XP.

No Linklord, page 114 likes me.

[SorO_Lost]

And on when to award XP.

Previously quoted as a counterpoint.
You may wish to award experience points at the end of a session to enable players to advance their characters in level if they have enough experience points. Alternatively, you may wish to give out XP awards at the beginning of the game session following the one in which the characters earned it.
And what they left out
This gives you time between sessions to use these rules and determine the experience award.

The paragraph in full context suggests you award XP at the start of a game session if you need several hours to figure out how to award XP.

Recall this is partially based on favorable readings. See also my rant on everyone else does it, so its my turn. Where this card was obviously played when I mentioned things was awarding XP. As the rule don't give an exact time to award things. The closest it comes is in the steps to award XP for an encounter, #2 is for each monster defeated, which presumably all six are done before the XP total is actually handed out. However, in counter mind.

You must decide when a challenge has been overcome. Usually, this is simple to do. Did the PCs defeat the enemy in battle? Then they met the challenge and earned experience points. Other times, it can be trickier. Suppose the PCs sneak past the sleeping minotaur to get into the magical vault—did they overcome the minotaur encounter? If their goal was to get into the vault and the minotaur was just a guardian, then the answer is probably yes. It’s up to you to make such judgments.

Why if my goal is to defeat one gold dragon and level up? And then I am successful on my part? Then the answer is probably yes right?

Yeah is a sucky card. I know it. It is the strategy I'm after, a working counter to Gate and the best wins. In this specific fight tactically hiding or running away is ultimately unallowed (flat featureless looping plane does a good job preventing that). However, in Ly's example, his real body never even showed up. And in a game world, which interests me far more than any single dick measuring contest, the option exists 99.9% of the time. So while the when to award XP isn't a huge interest of mine, I can't help but recall all the stupid rules mongering and cheating done by people, bringing this area to light is like justified pay back. And it's not really aimed at the Wizard per see, I've just never liked the Gate tactic. And frequently, usage of addition minions is ruled against and ignored which really invalidates the entire fight imho.

[Rebel7284]

Wait, SorO_Lost, are you seriously arguing that time spend in a Time Stop is not combat?

[zugschef]

On my phone so its impossible to really reply., but I already covered the dragons are worth XP. EG your quoted text says SUMMON, not CALL. Please keep up, even the FAQ agrees with me and that is offical rules over forum opinion. As for no xp till end I guess i need to do some more reading but the XP section its self very much says when the monster is defeated.

stop lying. it says "Do not award XP for creatures that enemies summon or otherwise add to their forces with magical powers". and that's a quote out of the fuckin Dungeon Master's Guide, the #1 authority on experience awards.

[edit] gate is an ability and just because it is a broken ability you don't award extra xp for killing some dude with this ability. that's just stupid. you don't award xp for killing an animal companion or familiar either.

[SorO_Lost]

Wait, SorO_Lost, are you seriously arguing that time spend in a Time Stop is not combat?

See where I mentioned that at. Example #2 is casting Animate Dead right before combat and it notes "Still, he doesn’t have to spend any rounds of combat casting the spells, so it’s not quite the same". Time Stop is comparable enough as in both instances the spellcaster isn't in direct combat and is taking multiple turns outside of the real combat limitations, so I went with it as an example over say shifting over to a 10:1 time trait plane and screwing screwing around for a minute or two before bringing everyone back with you.

stop lying. it says "Do not award XP for creatures that enemies summon or otherwise add to their forces with magical powers". and that's a quote out of the fuckin Dungeon Master's Guide, the #1 authority on experience awards.

Want to cuss? I got one for you. Calm the fuck down.

Opening sentence of a paragraph carries less weight than the contained information therein. Consider my favorite citation, Powerful Build, where shockingly it doesn't make you large if you studied English out of even a translation book for dummies. The passage goes on to say, an enemies ability to add creatures is part of their CR. Well Planar Ally isn't an ability (spellcasting is), wouldn't be described as a magical power (it's a spell / magical effect), and fundamentally a choice. When something is referred to a X's Ability, it's not meaning your choice to sleep on the stairs or in the bedroom but the written down in print rules exception that lets them do something above normal expectations.

Which is a good thing too. If nothing brought about to Magic Effects gave XP. Then how would a Summon Monster Trap, whose sole ability awards no XP, be printed with an XP value greater than 0 two or three pages later? How would the Undead plague destroying a down and even the Constructs guarding the Wizard's Tower give XP for beating them? You know, quoting that comment out of context is actually pretty fracking devastating to how even WotC designs and sells their Adventures while simultaneously saying the RGPA and us have been playing it wrong for years.

Maybe you're just interpreting it wrong? You should try reading the FAQ, it's designed to handle interpretation, while you're... Not.

[Echoes]

stop lying. it says "Do not award XP for creatures that enemies summon or otherwise add to their forces with magical powers". and that's a quote out of the fuckin Dungeon Master's Guide, the #1 authority on experience awards.

Want to cuss? I got one for you. Calm the fuck down.

Zugschef didn't cuss at you, but I will: you're a lying sack of shit.

Opening sentence of a paragraph carries less weight than the contained information therein. Consider my favorite citation, Powerful Build, where shockingly it doesn't make you large if you studied English out of even a translation book for dummies. The passage goes on to say, an enemies ability to add creatures is part of their CR. Well Planar Ally isn't an ability (spellcasting is), wouldn't be described as a magical power (it's a spell / magical effect), and fundamentally a choice. When something is referred to a X's Ability, it's not meaning your choice to sleep on the stairs or in the bedroom but the written down in print rules exception that lets them do something above normal expectations.

What the actual fuck are you smoking? The sentence is clearly not referring to Extraordinary/Supernatural/Spell-like abilities, but anything the being in question can do that fits the stated criteria. You know, like the common fucking English definition of ability. However, what I really want to know is what brand of special crack you're on when you make the argument that casting a magic spell to call a creature isn't the same thing as using magical power to add a creature to your forces. I'm pretty sure that spells fall under any sane definition of magical power, unless you're either a lying sack of shit or crazy.

Which is a good thing too. If nothing brought about to Magic Effects gave XP. Then how would a Summon Monster Trap, whose sole ability awards no XP, be printed with an XP value greater than 0 two or three pages later? How would the Undead plague destroying a down and even the Constructs guarding the Wizard's Tower give XP for beating them? You know, quoting that comment out of context is actually pretty fracking devastating to how even WotC designs and sells their Adventures while simultaneously saying the RGPA and us have been playing it wrong for years.

See, the simple answer is that a trap that casts the spell is fundamentally not the same thing as the same spell cast by a Wizard, because the trap is an isolated one-trick pony and the Wizard is an actual creature that does more than one fixed thing at one fixed point some number of times. However, it's not nearly as entertaining (or insulting to you) as the reductio ad absurdum rebuttal, so I'm going to use that, too. Here goes: so your argument is that you should get XP for each spell the wizard casts as if they were traps in addition to getting XP for defeating the wizard. Brilliant. So Wizards give XP equal to a number of traps equivalent to each spell slot they expend plus the XP for being a creature. Even better, you get XP for bypassing traps even if you didn't suffer their deleterious effects! So you actually get XP for each spell slot the wizard has, not just the ones he actually uses. Awesome! But wait, there are traps that just make attack rolls, so you not only also get XP for each attack roll a creature makes against you, you get XP for each attack it could have made, even if it didn't.

Or we can not follow that line of reasoning, because it's fucking stupid, and accept that XP rewards for monsters (supposedly) includes all of their attendant abilities.  Now, we know for a fact that a Wizard 20 is not the same challenge as a Fighter 20 and that the CR and XP system is broken at a fundamental level, but that's what the rules posit - that a Wizard 20 is a CR 20 encounter and that that rating encompasses any and all spells that he uses.

[Concerned Ninja Citizen]

This is the key passage:

Any time that a creature can bring an ally into play without reducing the resources it otherwise brings to the fight (or well outside of combat) you should strongly consider awarding XP for defeating that ally.

Casting Time Stop and spending several of the rounds gained thereby casting Gate indisputably reduces the resources the Wizard brings to the fight. Any number of 9th lv spell slots spent is a reduction in resources and rounds spent in Time Stop are rounds in combat because they take place during the combat, there are a limited number of them and if the wizard was not casting gate he could have been doing something else. 

The FAQ clearly states that the exception to the "no XP for magic allies"  rule comes into play when the creation of the allies did not use up combat time or resources. In this instance it very clearly did use up combat time and resources.

how would a Summon Monster Trap, whose sole ability awards no XP, be printed with an XP value greater than 0

You're actually defeating your own arguement here. The trap has an XP value. The monster the trap summons does not. Saying that summoning is an "ability [that] awards no XP" is inaccurate. It awards XP but the XP is awarded for defeating the summoner, not the summoned creature. Calling a creature in battle works the same way.

[Necrosnoop110]

This engagement was about a non-theoretically optimized fighter vs a non-theoretically optimized wizard. I didn't even need to employ all of the tactics that phaedrusxy & others suggested ... I just followed the basic script and won handily.

Basic script being ignoring the game rules. Your wizard had neither extra exp or scrolls. He just casted gate a bunch of times while following the spell rules that were convenient to him at the moment. If this was any kind of official competition, your character would've lost simply because you didn't bother following the books.

This is, satisfy my curiosity, if the wizard's advantage is so overwhelming, couldn't you actually follow the game rules? Having to cheat to win only proves you weren't confident at all in your character's odds of victory to start with.

Cheat? Cheat in what way? How on god's green earth do you know that I didn't have scrolls? What do you mean "while following the spell rules that were convenient to him at the moment"?

[Necrosnoop110]

And on when to award XP.

Previously quoted as a counterpoint.
You may wish to award experience points at the end of a session to enable players to advance their characters in level if they have enough experience points. Alternatively, you may wish to give out XP awards at the beginning of the game session following the one in which the characters earned it.
And what they left out
This gives you time between sessions to use these rules and determine the experience award.

The paragraph in full context suggests you award XP at the start of a game session if you need several hours to figure out how to award XP.

Here's the entire paragraph (I gave the page number last time so I wasn't trying to hide anything.)

You need to calculate XP awards during the course of an adventure, whether it's one you wrote or one you purchased. You may wish to award experience points at the end of a session to enable players to advance their characters in level if they have enough experience points. Alternatively, you may wish to give out XP awards at the beginning of the game session following the one in which the characters earned it. This gives you time between sessions to use these rules and determine the experience award. - DMG p36

When I read this paragraph I see it in three parts:

(1) You need to calculate XP awards during the course of an adventure, whether it's one you wrote or one you purchased.

Seems pretty obvious here, the DM needs to calculate the XP awards.

(2)You may wish to award experience points at the end of a session to enable players to advance their characters in level if they have enough experience points.

This is one option. After you've done all your calculating during the game, you may allow the PCs to level up at the end of the session.

(3)Alternatively, you may wish to give out XP awards at the beginning of the game session following the one in which the characters earned it. This gives you time between sessions to use these rules and determine the experience award. - DMG p36

This is a second option. You wait to give out XP until the beginning of the next session so that the DM can use the experience point rules to properly determine the experience award.

Notice a couple of things here. No where does it say anything about leveling up during or after encounters, it measures leveling up at the session level. The sentence that I supposedly omitted, modified the third part of the paragraph, the bit about it being an alternative to leveling up at the end of the session.

Cheers,
Necro   


PS - Does any D&D gaming table in the world have PCs level up during an encounter? Or even at the encounter level? I never played a game that didn't wait till the end of the session, at minimum, to level up. 

[SorO_Lost]

Zugschef didn't cuss at you, but I will: you're a lying sack of shit.

Orly?

Basic Linguistics. Words are used to communicate thoughts and ideas and each person uses their own set of encoding. Often dubbed speech patterns when talking, they have a certain way to put their thoughts into words which also makes them predisposed to translate patterns into certain thoughts. Keep this in mind noob, because the 4 years of school you've attended hasn't thought you shit and you need to remember it so stop staring at the red bull can and pay attention.

The DMG stats all creatures created by "magical powers" do not give XP, we know for an absolute fact Undead and Constructs give XP and are meant to so the author cannot in fact mean that, as he goes on and into details he talks about abilities to summon monsters. This is something we can go with. When using more than a single sentence the author goes into details on summoning. Does he mean ability like the other 95% of uses of a printed concept or is he using quote on quote plain old english? I'm going with the latter.

And why? Summoning it's self is noted not to give XP as part of the rules redundancy reminder thing D&D writers love to do. As they often print some sort of reminder to something it references. As two examples, MM1's Summon Monster entry says monsters summoned in this way don't give XP see DMG pg37 and the Glossary entry on the Summoning subschool which also reminds you of such. Calling has no such reminder.

Is it wrong to read it that way?

No.

Cocks up the ass aside, the FAQ is official rules and you're a nobody on the forums coming out of no where to insult me. It goes into exact detail and in one such example the spellcaster is down the spell slot, and the spell consumes XP to cast just like Gate, and both creatures award their full XP. The no contradiction in RAW is just bonus points because these forums are full of stupid people like you that cannot read headers and sour grape over nerfs. Oh, I'm sorry, I shouldn't use a complex term such as sour grapes around you and I must continue to talk down at your level. It actually doesn't matter what the DMG says, FAQ as a continually updated document on rule interpretation that explains specific examples which simply holds more priority on wither or not Planar Ally gives XP than the DMG does. And it is in those rules this line of posts operates in.

The Official Game Rules provided by Wizard of the Coast agrees that I am fairly close in how to interpret those couple of paragraphs. After all, for an absolute fact it says I'm not a lier on a Called creature gives full XP, making your claim the real lie. You on the other hand, can't even handle two words without bitching at people like you know what the hell you're talking about. So in lieu of that.

Fuck off noob.
I've already wasted more time with you than you will ever be worth.

[Concerned Ninja Citizen]

You know, I'll say this once more and then figure you're being deliberately dense and move on.

Whether you get XP has nothing to do with whether the ability is summoning or calling or whatever.

It has to do with whether you are in combat when you use the ability and whether you are using combat resources on the ability.

That's what the FAQ says, that's what the examples bear out. In every example the text is concerned with when the ability was used and how much of a drain on resources it was. In none of them is the type of ability even mentioned as a factor in the decision on the XP award.

Over the course of many days, a powerful necromancer stocks his lair with undead created via spells. When the PCs fight the necromancer and these undead minions, the necromancer has his full array of spells, so the act of creating these undead hasn’t reduced the challenge he provides. Thus, the Sage recommends awarding full XP for defeating the undead.

The same necromancer is on the run, knowing the PCs aren’t far behind. He spends some of his precious daily allotment of spells to animate a few zombies, only minutes before the PCs bust down his door and attack. That’s a lot more like summoning, since the creation of the undead represents a direct drain on the necromancer’s immediately available resources. Still, he doesn’t have to spend any rounds of combat casting the spells, so it’s not quite the same. The Sage recommends awarding one-half XP for defeating the undead.

An evil cleric uses lesser planar ally to call a succubus to serve him as a spy for 7 days, and sends her up against the PCs (without being present himself). The Sage recommends awarding full XP for defeating the succubus. If the PCs then track down and defeat the evil cleric before he’s able to prepare spells again, it’s tempting to reduce the XP award for the cleric by a little bit (since he’s down one 4th level spell), but it’s probably not worth the effort.

Show me the part in these examples where the type of ability has anything to do with anything? In the one instance the ability type is mentioned at all "That's a lot more like summoning" it is directly followed by text defining the likeness as being about the drain on resources, not some arbitrary rule that summons don't give XP but Calls do.

So looking at this case:

"A wizard enters battle with a fighter. After taking damage in the first round of combat he casts Time Stop and uses the rounds provided by the spell to Gate in 4 Dragons. Unlike the necromancer or the evil cleric the wizard is in combat and using his resources in a way that makes him significantly less powerful (he's nearly out of his highest level spell slots.) The Gated Dragons should not grant XP."

To look at it another way: What if the Wizard had spent the 4 rounds using summon spells to get colossal spiders or elemental monoliths? What would materially change about being in combat and using resources (the things that the FAQ repeatedly states are the basis for minions granting or not granting XP)?

[Demelain]

I have to wonder how you measure whether or not the Wizard is in combat. If he becomes ethereal and sinks into the floor, is he still part of the encounter? He certainly has the opportunity to act, if he chooses, but any wizard that knows the location of his enemy could act, regardless of his own location.
The cleric in the example might leave the succubus behind to fight the PCs, but if he waits on the other side of the door he still isn't part of the encounter. Both the cleric and the wizard are effectively outside of combat until they choose.

I don't know myself how I'd handle this, but I would consider the interpretation that the wizard is not a part of the encounter entirely valid, if he has chosen to "leave the room", so to speak.