Shadow creature template - shadow blend

[pelzak]

Hello,

I'm looking at Shadow creature template from LoM and I'm not sure if I understand it's Shadow blend (Su) correctly.

Shadow Blend (Su): In any conditions other than full daylight, a shadow creature can disappear into the shadows, giving it total concealment. Artificial illumination, even a light or continual flame spell, does not negate this ability, but a daylight spell will.

Hide skill says:

You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.

Does it means that creature with Shadow blend is invisible?

Best regards,
Pelzak

[Kasz]

In the shadows he is effectively invisible I guess, under epic uses of spot it's a +20 to the DC to notice an invisible creature and a skill trick - Clarity of Vision   to Notice invisible enemies for 1 round.

Total cover usually means like...hiding behind a wall... no spot check is going to spot you through a wall without x-ray specs because the spotter doesn't have Line of Sight.. In this case the "wall" is shadows... so if the spotter has Line of Sight then he makes spot checks at the +20 DC and can use that skill trick. If the spotter has no LoS then he cannot possibly succeed.

[tuesdayscoming]

How interesting...

I wonder, then: how would Shadow Blend interact with Darkvision, or other effects which allow the beneficiary to negate the effects of darkness. RAW, it seems to me that the Shadow Creature would have full concealment, even against a creature that was otherwise unencumbered by the darkness...

[ksbsnowowl]

You are correct, when in anything but full daylight, a Shadow Creature (or Shadow Mastiff, or Shadow Dragon...) effectively auto-succeeds at Hide checks.

This was an unintended side-effect of WotC "simplifying" the cover and concealment rules in 3.5; in 3.0 they only gained 9/10 concealment (40% miss chance).

Darkvision will not help.  Shadow Blend is a Supernatural ability; you could say that it is supernaturally be cloaked in darkness.  Darkvision won't help.

Still, it just means your PC's need to be prepared with a scroll of Daylight.

For more on the topic, see here:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?323595-What-can-overcome-Shadow-Blend#post5918582

[ariasderros]

I disagree.
Shadow Blend does not equal Hide = infinite.
Usually, if you have total concealment it isn't from an ability like this, so the "usually" line from Hide kind of footnotes itself there.

Think of it this way, you can notice the location of an invisible creature with a high enough spot check. The invisible creature still has Total Concealment, the only thing is that you know exactly which square to aim into.

Shadow Blend is like invisibility, except you don't get a bonus to your hide check. It is still Total Concealment though, so you've still managed to LoS-block uber-chargers and the like.

I used to think the Shadow Blend = Invisibility, but re-reading the rules changed my mind.
It is at least rules-grey enough that it is up to the DM.

[Nagukuk]

How does True Sight interact with this type of creature?

What if the creature is using the hide skill in addition to being concealed?

[ksbsnowowl]

How does True Sight interact with this type of creature?

If you click the link provided above, the other thread has your answer.  Right in the spell description for True Seeing, it states that it does not pierce concealment.

What if the creature is using the hide skill in addition to being concealed?

This is the tricky area where it's pretty much up to DM interpretation.

Total Concealment = can't be seen, ergo, you don't really need to hide.

A reasonable way of running it in game would be to treat the total concealment as a 50% miss chance, as well as an improved form of Hide in Plain Sight*, allowing the creature to make a free Hide check each round with no penalty, and if the opponents fail their spot checks, then they can't see the Shadow Creature.  I'm thinking of running it this way in the future; Shadow Creatures are going to start being a major faction that my PC's will have to go up against.

*Note that the Dark Creature template, which is supposed to be a toned-down and streamlined version of the Shadow Creature template (at +1 LA instead of +2), gives HiPS, as well as a racial bonus to Hide and Move Silently checks.  The greater version of the template only gives a bonus to Move Silently checks.  That dichotomy reinforces the straight RAW answer, in that Total Concealment = can't be spotted.  Shadow Creature doesn't give a racial bonus to Hide checks, because most of the time the Shadow Creature doesn't even have to make them.

That said, there's nothing preventing the shadow creature from using the Hide skill while shadow blended.  The shadow blend even gives him the concealment that allows the Hide check.

[SorO_Lost]

A creature under the effects can and most likely will desire to make Hide Checks.

For one thing, per Epic rules by accepting a -30 penalty you can Hide another creature. Considering you maintain your Total-Concealment from Shadow Blend no matter your check, this is a risk free attempt to share the wealth. Of course since it does have such a huge penalty and you have achieved this state of absolutely hidden. You'll probably find it easier to completely disregard Hide bonuses and instead focus your resources else where.

But before you completely ditch it, effects like Blindsight does bypass Shadow Blend and the well known counter, Darkstalker, isn't perfect. It is dependent on a Hide vs Spot check so if you want to maintain your Total-Concealment bonus against say a Red Dragon. You will need an exceptional modifier.