Author Topic: [3.x] A minor tweak to iterative attacks  (Read 4262 times)

Offline Pteryx

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[3.x] A minor tweak to iterative attacks
« on: January 30, 2013, 04:23:04 PM »
I know, I know, most of you think full attacks should either be removed entirely or include Pounce, but my take on the whole mess is more conservative.

As far as I've seen, most people are pretty much agreed that your second attack being at -5 is fine.  It's when you get your third attack (at -10) and your fourth (at -15!) while primary casters are getting more and more game-breakers and initiators are starting to add tons of dice of damage to their singular blows that things start to look unfair.  The trick, though is how to tweak full attacks without rewriting half the game around it, breaking multiclassing, or being hard to explain to anyone who passes by.

A few weeks ago, the thought crossed my mind that at least some of the problem is that by RAW, you're not actually getting any better at making more attacks at higher levels, you're just making more of them anyway.  A solution as simple as I was hoping for then hit me:

  • At +6 BAB, your iterative attacks are -0/-5, as normal.
  • At +11 BAB, your iterative attacks are now -0/-4/-8.
  • At +16 BAB, your iterative attacks become -0/-3/-6/-9.  Furthermore, your standard attack is now two attacks, at -0/-5.
  • There is now an epic feat, Martial Pinnacle, which requires BAB+20 (and, by definition, character level 21).  This makes your BAB become +21, and your iterative attacks become -0/-2/-4/-6/-8.
  • Monsters that use a multiple-natural-attack routine instead of iterative attacks are unchanged.

You lose the elegant rollover this way, but I think it's well worth it.

I'm still considering just how thoroughly to loosen up the likes of Flurry of Blows, Two-Weapon Fighting, and Rapid Shot, hence the interactions not being listed yet.  -- Pteryx

Offline ImperatorK

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Re: [3.x] A minor tweak to iterative attacks
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2013, 04:47:41 PM »
Or make all iteratives simply a -5. So at +16 BaB you will have +16/+11/+11/+11.
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Offline Pteryx

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Re: [3.x] A minor tweak to iterative attacks
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2013, 07:07:52 PM »
Or make all iteratives simply a -5. So at +16 BaB you will have +16/+11/+11/+11.

Yeah, I've seen that one many times before, but I feel it misses the point.  The original idea, as I recall, was an improvement in multi-attacking capability that was more gradual than just gaining a full-fledged new attack every now and then, but was easier to manage than 2e's "X attacks per Y rounds".  The problem is that you never actually get better at multiple attacks as you reach the double digits -- you just get new sucky ones tacked on.  The way I describe, not only are the new ones not as inaccurate as in the RAW, but the old ones improve slightly.  Making all iterative attacks be at -5 merely delays the suddenness of getting new attacks.  -- Pteryx

Offline ImperatorK

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Re: [3.x] A minor tweak to iterative attacks
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2013, 01:08:40 AM »
Where does it say you're supposed to get better at multiple attacks? (I ask under the assuption that getting more attacks for some reason isn't considered getting better.)
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Offline RobbyPants

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Re: [3.x] A minor tweak to iterative attacks
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2013, 09:06:58 AM »
Or make all iteratives simply a -5. So at +16 BaB you will have +16/+11/+11/+11.

Yeah, I've seen that one many times before, but I feel it misses the point.  The original idea, as I recall, was an improvement in multi-attacking capability that was more gradual than just gaining a full-fledged new attack every now and then, but was easier to manage than 2e's "X attacks per Y rounds".  The problem is that you never actually get better at multiple attacks as you reach the double digits -- you just get new sucky ones tacked on.  The way I describe, not only are the new ones not as inaccurate as in the RAW, but the old ones improve slightly.  Making all iterative attacks be at -5 merely delays the suddenness of getting new attacks.  -- Pteryx
I'm not sure what you're getting at. in 2E, you'd get extra attacks (fewer than in 3E at the same level), but they'd all hit with the same accuracy, and they'd be usable after movement. It would be akin to removing all attack penalties for iteratives and allowing full attacks as a standard action.
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Offline Pteryx

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Re: [3.x] A minor tweak to iterative attacks
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2013, 03:25:09 PM »
Where does it say you're supposed to get better at multiple attacks? (I ask under the assuption that getting more attacks for some reason isn't considered getting better.)

I could have sworn I once read something in design notes from around the 3.0 transition comparing 2e's take on multiple attacks and 3.0's, but I can't seem to find it.  (Then again, a lot of that stuff was from the early days of what is now ENWorld, and some of my Dragons from around that time seem to have gone missing, so I can't easily verify whether I'm misremembering or just lost track of it.)

More attacks are only a partial solution to me.  The math works well enough at single-digit BAB, but... well, let's put it this way.  For a fighter-BAB character, an attack at your full BAB is level-appropriate while an attack at -5 (with no commiserate bonus to something else in return) is something you could do five levels ago.  Gaining another attack at -10 means your shiny new attack is only as good as something you could do ten levels ago -- not especially relevant save for representing a new chance to roll a 20.  Conversely, if it's at -8 while your old secondary attack becomes -4, then not only is the new addition less outdated, but your old secondary attack is just a little bit closer to par than it used to be.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. in 2E, you'd get extra attacks (fewer than in 3E at the same level), but they'd all hit with the same accuracy, and they'd be usable after movement. It would be akin to removing all attack penalties for iteratives and allowing full attacks as a standard action.

As I recall, in 2e, you typically gained new attacks at an every-other-round rate (so 1 attack per round, 3 attacks per 2 rounds, 2 attacks per round, etc.).  However, while this was pretty enough mathematically, not everyone grasped it readily and it meant having to track what you did last round in order to know what you can do in the current round.  By my understanding, a desire to create a solution that was easier to grasp and play with while preserving a more gradual improvement than gaining full-powered new attacks, combined with a transition to a less abstract round, is where new attacks at a lower bonus came from.  By that logic, the best equivalent to the 2e way of doing things would be a switch to -0, -0/-5, -0/-0, -0/-0/-5... but I'd prefer a solution that bears closer resemblance to cleaning up 3.x than to backporting a 2e rule -- in part because it would mean less system-rewriting and less explanation.

If you prefer Pounce for everyone, the basic math of a progression of -0, -0/-5, -0/-4/-8, -0/-3/-6/-9 isn't incompatible with such.  -- Pteryx

Offline Eldritch_Lord

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Re: [3.x] A minor tweak to iterative attacks
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2013, 04:01:06 PM »
Where does it say you're supposed to get better at multiple attacks? (I ask under the assuption that getting more attacks for some reason isn't considered getting better.)

I could have sworn I once read something in design notes from around the 3.0 transition comparing 2e's take on multiple attacks and 3.0's, but I can't seem to find it.  (Then again, a lot of that stuff was from the early days of what is now ENWorld, and some of my Dragons from around that time seem to have gone missing, so I can't easily verify whether I'm misremembering or just lost track of it.)

I recall reading a similar comparison article around then, where it was claimed that WotC went with the iterative attack model because (A) it let them set monster ACs on the assumption that a fighter's first attack would basically always hit by high levels and it would be the later attacks that had a good chance of missing and (B) the average damage increase was more gradual if you added another attack at -5 instead of just adding another attack at the same bonus.  So in fact they were trying to slow down the fighter's damage curve so he wasn't "too good" in combat just like the overvalued BAB in other places.  Don't recall how official and/or well-supported it was, though.

Offline Pteryx

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Re: [3.x] A minor tweak to iterative attacks
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2013, 04:18:37 PM »
I could have sworn I once read something in design notes from around the 3.0 transition comparing 2e's take on multiple attacks and 3.0's, but I can't seem to find it.  (Then again, a lot of that stuff was from the early days of what is now ENWorld, and some of my Dragons from around that time seem to have gone missing, so I can't easily verify whether I'm misremembering or just lost track of it.)

I recall reading a similar comparison article around then, where it was claimed that WotC went with the iterative attack model because (A) it let them set monster ACs on the assumption that a fighter's first attack would basically always hit by high levels and it would be the later attacks that had a good chance of missing and (B) the average damage increase was more gradual if you added another attack at -5 instead of just adding another attack at the same bonus.  So in fact they were trying to slow down the fighter's damage curve so he wasn't "too good" in combat just like the overvalued BAB in other places.  Don't recall how official and/or well-supported it was, though.

Ah, thank you!  :)  It sounds, then, like they basically overshot their goal -- not that that's surprising, given that they also assumed that Str would still be the most powerful stat in the game and that's where we got half-orcs with +2 Str, -2 Int, -2 Cha.  -- Pteryx

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: [3.x] A minor tweak to iterative attacks
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2013, 04:27:41 PM »
The iterative system is a bit of an annoyance, but the main problem is still the fact that it limits tactics due to full attacks being full-round actions compared to casters getting more powerful spells that are still standard actions.  Supposedly the martials were "balanced" around always having their weapons while casters ran out of spells, but we all know well-played casters don't usually run out once they get to decent levels.

Alas, were I better at math and computers I could put together a bunch of charts to show what the effects of various iterative systems were.

Offline Pteryx

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Re: [3.x] A minor tweak to iterative attacks
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2013, 06:00:49 PM »
The iterative system is a bit of an annoyance, but the main problem is still the fact that it limits tactics due to full attacks being full-round actions compared to casters getting more powerful spells that are still standard actions.

Honestly, I've considered the idea of having "standard action" spells take an amount of initiative count to cast equal to the spell level, adjusting init accordingly and making some rules for wrapping around to the next round, but no one in my group seems game for it.  The idea that a 9th-level spell just might be that much more valuable a use of time and that giving fighter-types the time to actually interrupt spells might be a good thing didn't go over well...  Oh well, at least they agree that 5' steps, defensive casting, and Concentration checks to maintain a spell when interrupted are one too many layers of protection, even if we don't all agree which one to drop.  (Personally, I'd go with nerfing the Concentration check so the spell is disrupted no matter what, you're just rolling to see if the spell is expended or not.)  -- Pteryx

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: [3.x] A minor tweak to iterative attacks
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2013, 06:14:31 PM »
It's probably enough that the spell gets interrupted without it being completely expended.

I'm glad I looked at your first sentence again because I originally read it as using BAB for the spells, not initiative.  Still, going by initiative might not work too well because it adds even more complexity to spellcasting and initiative is supposed to be one of the simpler things.