Author Topic: The Tripping Handbook - Discussion Thread  (Read 12756 times)

Offline Captnq

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1602
  • Haters gonna hate. Dragons gonna drag.
    • View Profile
    • Ask the Captain
Prone Spellcasters
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2013, 06:18:59 PM »
Quote from: Prone SRD
The character is on the ground. An attacker who is prone has a -4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A defender who is prone gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a -4 penalty to AC against melee attacks. Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity.

If you are going to be a tripper, you need to argue with your DM about prone spellcasters. You see, this is the prone condition and it's a bit vague about a few things. So you need too figure out where your DM stands. Chances are you are going to want to trip a spellcaster at some point, and you are going to need to know what that spellcaster can do.

1) Are Spells Ranged Weapons?

The RAW of this doesn't say anything on this one. By strict RAW reading, you can cast ranged spells with no penalty when prone. Now to argue.

- Ranged Touch Attack Spells require an attack roll, just like projectiles and thrown weapons. If you need an attack roll and it is ranged, it clearly is a weapon.

- Nets are weapons and a ranged touch attack. Therefore, the fact that rays are touch attacks are not a reason to exclude them as weapons.

- The Weapon Focus Feat states, "Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for purposes of this feat." Here we have it specifically listed that rays are "one type of weapon". So, we can conclude that rays (and thus ranged touch attacks) are considered "weapons". Since the only excluded weapon is Crossbow, we must assume that unless you can cast your ranged touch attack spells with a crossbow, that you cannot cast ranged touch attack spells while prone.

(As a DM, I would argue that wands are the equivalent to a Spell crossbow, and you can use a wand while prone just fine.)

Now, if you can get this past your DM, tripping a spellcaster limits them from a wide range of spells to ruin your day, to eliminating all ranged touch attacks, as well as imposing a -4 to hit roll on all melee touch attack spells.

(As a DM, I would rule that being prone has no effect on a spectral hand spell. That might seem obvious to some, but having checked other forums on the topic, I can see the need for clarification.)


2) Is there a concentration check involved?

Now, if you do manage to convince the DM that prone scorching ray casting is now off limits, what do you do about fireballs? (Remember, space is 3 dimensional. A wizard could cast the fireball high enough into the air to scorch anyone standing, but leave prone people unharmed. Something to keep in mind, oh prone wizard.) Well, for those sorts of spells, you have to convince the DM that lying on the ground requires a concentration check, if the spell in question has somatic components (Gestures)..

Now, by RAW, it doesn't. But, lets look at concentration checks more closely.

Quote from: Concentration
You must make a Concentration check whenever you’re distracted while engaged in an activity that requires your full attention. ... If you’re trying to cast, concentrate on, or direct a spell when the distraction occurs, add the level of the spell to the indicated DC.

Now, as one person asked else-forum, "If I'm lying on my back, how does that distract me from casting a spell? I can move my arms just fine."

Well, normally it wouldn't. But, if you are attempting to avoid getting hit during combat, one might assume that wiggling around on the ground avoiding sword blows is a "Vigorous Motion" or a DC 10 + (level of the spell you are casting) concentration check. By RAW, you can avoid blows just as well on your back as you can standing up. By RAI, can you truly say that it isn't distracting to roll around trying not to get hit?

Friend, fancy footwork don't work when you ain't on your feet.

So your argument is, if the Spellcaster is willing to forgo his Dex Bonus to AC, he isn't making any vigorous motion while lying on the ground and thus, no concentration check. But, trying to avoid sword blows while lying on the ground AND casting spells clearly IS vigorous motion, thus requiring a check. So if I knock down a spellcaster and he's trying to fireball me, it's a DC 10 + the spell he is trying to cast concentration check.

(As a DM, You'd be surprised how many Pre-Gen Spellcasting NPCs I've found with no concentration skill as a spellcaster. What? Do people just not play with concentration checks?)

3) Does lying prone interfere with line of effect?

This is the weakest of the three arguments, and won't come up very often, but it's something to keep in mind. It involves the cover rules.

Now, the cover rules are very subjective to begin with, so there is no real RAW way to answer this. It's a case by case situation. Keep it in mind and pull it out if you need to try and weasel out of something.

Now, lying on the ground does provide a +4 to AC from ranged attacks. This is the equivalent to normal, soft cover. No bonuses to reflex saves. No hide attempts. So, what happens if the target you are trying to reach is using cover as well?

Well, The argument goes, it would be additive. So if you are prone, and you are trying to hit a target behind normal cover, the combination is effectively improved cover, but he only has to deal with normal cover when attacking you. If your target has improved cover, it upgrades to total cover. You cannot hit him, while he can attack you.

After all, if you are looking out an arrow slit and plunking arrows into someone lying on the ground, how well is he going to be able to see you when he tries to return fire while attempting to avoid getting a sharpened bit of timber inserted into his left ventricle?

Like I said, it's subjective and entirely situational. But, I can see circumstances where you might want to go, "WAIT! The evil necromancer has been tripped and the prince he is trying to assassinate is hiding behind the throne! That's partial cover, but he's got a bad line of sight while lying on his back, so treat it as normal cover!"

Maybe the DM will buy it. Maybe the DM will roll his eyes and say, "It's 2 am in the goddamn morning! The Prince DIES. The necromancer DIES. Rocks fall, everybody DIES!"

In other words, don't be a dick about it, and use it only when it matters.


So, before deciding if you are going to specialize in tripping, be sure to iron out these consequences of lying prone for spellcasters before you make your PC. These three arguments can change being a tripper from being a spellcaster's worst nightmare, to being turned into a newt.
If you have questions about 3.5 D&D, you might want to look at the:
Encyclopedia Vinculum Draconis

Currently: Podcasting

Offline Captnq

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1602
  • Haters gonna hate. Dragons gonna drag.
    • View Profile
    • Ask the Captain
Other thoughts
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2013, 09:27:47 PM »
Here's some thoughts:

Tripping

Tripping is awesome. Why? because with improved trip, you get to trip someone, then make a free attack against them immediately afterwords. That reduces the target's AC by 4 against your Melee attacks. It also may have effect on him as a Spellcaster (See Prone spellcasting section)

He will have to provoke an AoO when he stands up, and waste a move action doing so. This prevents your target from making a full-attack, and thus limits the number of incoming attacks.

Now that's the obvious stuff. Here's the cool part.

Tripping is an attack.

I know, you're saying, "Wha…?" It's a touch attack. So if you are using a weapon that has WSAs that take effect on ANY successful attack, those WSAs kick in. Then you get to follow up with a free melee attack to have them kick in AGAIN. So if you are going to be a tripper, may I suggest loading your weapon up with WSAs that work on contact, not on a damaging roll.

Side Note: Give the monk some love
If you are a monk or other unarmed fighter, may I recommend the Ward Cestus. This 4 pounds of leather that you strap to your hand acts like a weapon, but does damage as based on your unarmed strike. So you can magic up your Ward Cestus, but still use your flurry of blows or what not. You can have two of these, so you can magic up each weapon separately. One for the trip attack, one for kicking them while they are down.

Speaking of kicking someone while they are down, a monk gets to attack with his hands and feet. There is no reason you cannot make a Ward Cestus for the feet. It's not RAW, but it sure seems RAI to me. Effectively, you can make a pair of masterwork boots that you can magic up for kicking in people's teeth.


Useful WSAs

Assassination: This WSA is perfect if you want to use a contact poison on your weapon to trip someone.

Banishing: It only works three times a say, but works on any strike. Buh-Bye, Demon!

Binding: Trip your target and keep him from teleporting away for the next ten minutes. No Running and no 'porting.

Bloodstone: Hit your target with an empowered vampiric touch while you trip them. Making a slurping sound as you do it. Making make that sound the old gas pumps made. (Ding... ding... ding... ding...)

Brutal Surge: Not only have you just tripped them, but you can then bull rush them without moving. Push them back a few squares. Maybe knock them into someone for the fun of it.

Burning: Trip 'em and for a DC 11 Reflex save, they catch fire for 1d4 rounds for 1d6 hp a round. Kinda sucks, but the +2 to initiative sort of makes up for it.

Clouting: Expensive, but you can knock people back 10 feet with a chance to stun.

Diseased: If you are evil, 1d3 dex/con damage can ruin someone's day. Sucky Fort save (DC12)

Dislocator (Greater): Get the greater version. It's only another +1 but the Will save DC goes up to 20 and you can teleport your prone foe 30 feet. Alas, it's only three times a day.

Dismisser: An improved version of banishing.

Dispelling: Hate buff spells? Get the greater version. Great with binding. takes care of teleporting, AND since your trip doesn't do damage, it rarely triggers those contingency spells. With a little luck, thegreater dispelling will stop any other contingencies from kicking in as well.

Disruption: Hate undead? Trip 'em and make them disintegrate at the same time.

Explosive: 2d4 damage in a 5 foot burst. Make sure to use a reach weapon to trip, or you'll be using cure light wounds to grow your eyebrows back.

Impedance: Makes it harder for the target to cast spells.

Paralyzing: Make sure they STAY down. Alas, it's only once per day.

Revealing: Trip that invisible guy then outline him with faerie fire.

Sending: On a natural 20, you can teleport the target anywhere you want them to go within 1700 miles. +4 bonus, but funny as hell. I like volcanos and ice flows.

Shadowstrike: +5 reach 1/day

Stunning Surge: Keep 'em down.

Vanishing: Teleport once a day up to 60'

Whirling: Trip everyone within reach 3 times a day.


-----


As for feats, the one that sticks out is Great Throw.

Expensive to get (Improved unarmed strike, dex 13+, dodge, improved trip, combat reflexes) But worth is for the unarmed tripper. You do your normal unarmed strike damage when you throw them, automatically after a successful trip. Furthermore, you choose where they land.

I've seen an Monk under an enlarge person spell with Shadow Strike and whirlwind stack up everyone with 15 feet in the same square. (Which, to add insult to injury, was promptly webbed.) So what happens when you do a whirlwind attack (Either by feat or the WSA) and stack everyone up in the same square?

Well, by the rules it's a move action to stand up. Thus you cannot move out of the square without using your standard action as a move action. To quote the rules compendium, "the creature must be or remain prone, attempt to grapple you, or leave your space at its first opportunity."

So, having stacked 10 Bar patrons on top of each other, one at a time they have to get up and leave the square, taking no other actions, or remain prone. They provoke attacks of opportunity as they stand, and as they leave the square.

Needless to say, the monk used nonlethal damage and thus a sticky pile of prone, unconscious drunkards learned not to play grab-ass.

As for what other effects having 10 people piled on top of each other does to other actions, say... spellcasting? That's up to your DM for the ruling. But later the monk learned to expand her reach out to 20 feet and learned to love fighting near stairs, cliffs, and once next to a well. And thus the following joke was born:

Master Owl, How many bandits does it take to fill in a fifty foot well?
Let's Find Out!
*screaming sound*
One… Two-hoo-hoo… Threeeee…
*CRUNCH*


Three.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 11:18:27 PM by Captnq »
If you have questions about 3.5 D&D, you might want to look at the:
Encyclopedia Vinculum Draconis

Currently: Podcasting

Offline Jackinthegreen

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 6176
  • I like green.
    • View Profile
Re: The Tripping Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2013, 10:15:19 PM »
For those curious, Great Throw was in the errata for Oriental Adventures and can be found reprinted on WotC here

Also, just in case it's not totally clear, prone says that standing up is normally a move-equivalent action that does provoke an AoO, and an AoO can be used to make a trip attack since trips can be made instead of a normal attack including on AoOs.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 10:21:32 PM by Jackinthegreen »

Offline Captnq

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1602
  • Haters gonna hate. Dragons gonna drag.
    • View Profile
    • Ask the Captain
Re: The Tripping Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2013, 11:07:09 PM »
For those curious, Great Throw was in the errata for Oriental Adventures and can be found reprinted on WotC here

Also, just in case it's not totally clear, prone says that standing up is normally a move-equivalent action that does provoke an AoO, and an AoO can be used to make a trip attack since trips can be made instead of a normal attack including on AoOs.

Err.... actually, the consensus seems to be that because the person has not finished standing up until the AoO is resolved, you cannot trip someone as part of the AoO for standing up. It's an action order thing. I'm standing up, but have not stood until you resolve your AoO.

And the FAQ states you cannot trip creatures without legs or that are not currently using their legs. (IE flying, swimming, or prone.) Oh yeah, If I could trip someone who was prone... I got an infinite recursive loop of tossing someone around until they are pulp. It'd look something like what The Hulk did to Loki in The Avengers.
If you have questions about 3.5 D&D, you might want to look at the:
Encyclopedia Vinculum Draconis

Currently: Podcasting

Offline Jackinthegreen

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 6176
  • I like green.
    • View Profile
Re: The Tripping Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2013, 11:40:40 PM »
After a bit of digging I've found an official source for the rule that you can't trip an opponent when it's standing from prone: Rules of the Game: All About Trip Attacks (Part Two).  Near the bottom it says

Quote from: Skip Williams, WotC
It's possible to attempt a trip attack as an attack of opportunity. Fortunately, you can't be tripped while getting up from prone, at least not through the attack of opportunity you provoke. That because attacks of opportunity are resolved before the actions that provoke them (there are a few exceptions, see Rules of the Game: All About Attacks of Opportunity for details). When you try to stand up from a prone position, the attack of opportunity comes before you get back on your feet. Since you're still prone when the attack comes, the attack of opportunity can't trip you.

Your foes still can use trip attacks to keep you down when you're prone, however. A foe can use the ready action to prepare a trip attack against you when you stand up.

So I admit my error, and am providing a citation so others don't make the same mistake.

Offline Captnq

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1602
  • Haters gonna hate. Dragons gonna drag.
    • View Profile
    • Ask the Captain
Re: The Tripping Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2013, 10:11:10 PM »
So I admit my error, and am providing a citation so others don't make the same mistake.

Heh.

You should have seen the post I had worked out on that recursive loop before I found proof you can't trip someone who is prone. But gosh darn it, If I can just find a way to force someone to his feet...

Hey. There's a thought. Is there a way to force someone to stand? For example, I think if I used that chessmaster teleport spell, I could switch someone standing with someone prone. Or, if I do that, do the conditions remain?

Meh.

Just read it. Nuts. I'm just moving a prone person around.
If you have questions about 3.5 D&D, you might want to look at the:
Encyclopedia Vinculum Draconis

Currently: Podcasting

Offline Empirate

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 258
  • I'm not as new as my post count suggests!
    • View Profile
Re: The Tripping Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2013, 05:08:24 PM »
Well, the Stand spell gives someone a chance to stand up from prone without provoking, but that's probably not what you're looking for. Hilarious looking with a spell storing Guisarme, though...