How does a Glaivelock do damage?

[muktidata]

I assumed my best bet is to go up as Eldritch Disciple for Divine Power + Knowledge Devotion + Power Attack. I also plan on having my familiar and I both spam wands of Druid's Snake's Swiftness. But what are my other options to up the damage other than that crappy item that adds +1d6 for 8k or the scepter that uses charges?

ToB, MoI, Dmgz, ToM, Psi, Non-Faerunian CS Books, 3.0 Timeframe Books, Web Enhancements all banned.

My build stub is as follows:

Human

Cloistered Cleric 4/Warlock 1/Eldritch Disciple 4 (ECL 9)

Domains:
Knowledge Devotion
Travel Devotion
War

Feats:
Knowledge Devotion
Travel Devotion
Practiced Spellcaster
Quicken SLA
Holy Warrior
Power Attack
Obtain Familiar: Raven (for UMD)
Combat Reflexes
Weapon Finesse

Invocations:
See the Unseen
Eldritch Glaive
Devil's Sight

Gift of the Divine Patron:
Fiendish Resistance
Protective Aura

ACF's:
Cloistered Cleric
Spontaneous Domain Casting: War (for Divine Power)

Equipment of Note:
Gauntlets of War (+3 Damage) 4,000
Wand of Snake's Swiftness from Druid List (50/50) 750
Rod of Extend, Lesser 3,000
Various Utility Items and Mithral Shirt/Buckler
Wand of Enlarge Person (50/50) 750
Gauntlets of Entangling Blast
~12,000 Remaining

Spells of Note (regarding damage):
Lore of the Gods
Divine Power
Snake's Swiftness (from Raven)
Enlarge Person

Attack Routine:
1) Divine Power, Lore of the Gods, Enlarge
2) Get into position via Travel Devotion/Knight's Move
3) Eldritch Glaive + PA/KD, have Raven spam Snake's Swiftness
4) While in range: EG, Snakes's Swiftness, Quickened EG

Is there anything I'm missing that would benefit this character's attack routine while keeping him the same character? Within the book limitations?

[sirpercival]

Hellfire Warlock.

[ZhonLord]

This guide will probably help you out quite a bit:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2997.0

[Jackinthegreen]

You may want to look at http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265455

And Eldritch Glaive is rather difficult to work with because it's a full-round action but not a full attack, so stuff like haste technically doesn't work and it's debatable whether Snake's Swiftness would.  Better to use Eldritch Claws from Dragon Mag for damage.

And yeah, Hellfire Warlock is the best way to upgrade EB damage, especially if Uncanny Trickster or Legacy Champion are allowed to progress a prestige class.  Need a way to regularly and reliably heal the ability damage of course, so Binder gets a nod.

[muktidata]

:face palm:

I'm only level 9 and MoI and ToM are banzored. Dragon mags and online stuff are also banned.. So is ToB and any non-Faerun setting specific stuff... Ya... So...

Edit: Oh and I read every guide I could find already. Hoping for more insights than those guides have. Are there any wands that would help?

[Jackinthegreen]

Besides equipment, there's also the Mortalbane feat but of course it is limited in use and might be banned outright because of the book.

If you can PA with EG, good for you.  But this needs a clarification: Is EG considered a full attack, or a full-round action in your game?

Also, Quicken SLA might be ruled to get you another set of attacks with EG.

But for your own sake, be specific about what is and isn't allowed when asking for help.

[muktidata]

Yeah, hence the face palm. Perhaps I should list my build when I get time. I planned on using both Power Attack and Quicken SLA.

I'm 100% sure EG will be ruled to be a full round SLA that grants melee attack ROLLS and are thus a candidate for PA.

Edit:
I also foresee it being ruled that since it produces a weapon-like effect I can use stuff like Holy Warrior with it (thanks for reminding me of the obvious stuff I miss, AfterCrescent - wherever you are).

[Empirate]

Power Attack may "work", in that it makes it harder for your melee attacks to connect - but since EB is a spell-like effect, your damage wouldn't increase. Same as PAing with a touch spell.

[Jackinthegreen]

It's a spell-like effect, but it can be argued that it works properly with PA because it does create a physical weapon to use.  The character does threaten squares and can make AoOs with it after all.  It'll be up to the DM to decide.

[muktidata]

DM will allow it.

[Empirate]

DM is an idiot.

[bobtheapple]

DM is an idiot.

Hey now, no need to be rude.  I will say that Power Attacking with a Eldritch Glaive is not support by RAW at all; Complete Arcane lists all of the feats from the PHb that function with weapon-like spells without so much as a word about power attack, and Eldritch Glaive never says it creates a weapon, just that you may make an attack "as if wielding a reach weapon."  It also never specifies whether its a two-handed or one-handed weapon either, but the entry on Weapon Finesse in CArc says you may treat melee touch attack spells as light weapons (a rule your build uses), and you may not use Power Attack with light weapons except for unarmed strikes.  Even ignoring that, the damage calculation is up in the air, and if the DM gives you 2:1 returns on PA because it is glaive shaped, expect to get your character banned the first time you use it.

Consider asking your GM if you can play the adaption version of Ur-Priest, where they worship a dead or lost god (and no longer have to be evil).  If so, take 2 levels of UP for your Eldritch Disciple entry.  That will net you a huge cleric casting boost (no duh, ur-priest hur hur) while also snagging you +2 levels of warlock for damage.

You don't NEED MoI or ToM to take Hellfire Warlock, they are just the best options to negate the down side.  Exalted Raiment (BoED), a 6th level sanctified spell, gives you a Strongheart Vest effect for 1 min/level, as well as some other decent effects.  Body Ward (CC) is a 2nd level spell that preemptively blocks the next 5 damage, and lasts 1 min/level as well.  You could also, *gasp* *shock*, just TAKE the damage as the book intended: lesser restoration pretty much covers it, no problem.  Still doesn't fix the fact that Hellfire Warlock is a high entry PrC though.

Pretty much anything I can add other than that has been mentioned in the guides I'm sure.  I do note that you don't have a Chasuble of Fell Power (CArc) though, which is pretty much a warlock staple (also works with [chaos] damage spells).

[Empirate]

Being rude: yeah, well, I was just sain' it as I'm seein' it. But do ask your DM if he would also be OK with Wraithstrike being a 1st level spell with an hour/level duration, on a PAing melee guy. Coz that's similar to what he's getting, only with level-dependent weapon damage dice. Allowing PA on Eldritch Glaive, AND allowing a 1:2 hit:damage ratio means Warlock just become THE no. 1 dip class for melee!

[zugschef]

you can't increase your damage output with power attack with an eldritch glaive. you are not doing melee damage, you are doing eldritch blast damage.

SRD: Power Attack

On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls.

Dragon Magic: Eldritch Glaive

If you hit, your target is affected as if struck by your eldritch blast (including any eldritch essence applied to the blast).

[Unbeliever]

Being rude: yeah, well, I was just sain' it as I'm seein' it. But do ask your DM if he would also be OK with Wraithstrike being a 1st level spell with an hour/level duration, on a PAing melee guy. Coz that's similar to what he's getting, only with level-dependent weapon damage dice. Allowing PA on Eldritch Glaive, AND allowing a 1:2 hit:damage ratio means Warlock just become THE no. 1 dip class for melee!

This is by no means true.  The Eldritch Glaive has its own wonky mechanics, namely its funky attack routine (full round action v. full attack action).  And, it can't be enchanted and so forth.  UMD or a dip into Wizard and a wand of Wraithstrike is probably easier if that was your goal.  And, this is hardly the only way to gain touch attacks. 

I think it's pretty clear that you can Power Attack with it -- it's a melee attack and the distinction between doing "melee damage" and "edtritch glaive" damage strikes me as arcane in the extreme (heh).  I see no evidence that kind of Talmudic parsing is present in any D&D book, and much evidence to the contrary. 

Further, if you're going to quote part of the passage, you should also quote the preceding sentence where it says "you can make a single melee touch attack as if wielding a reach weapon."  That would seem to indicate that it functions, for attack purposes, like a weapon that is melee, reach, and touch.  None of those qualities in D&D suggest that you can't use Power Attack with it (contrary to Pathfinder). 

Now, if you think it's broken, that's another issue.  But, it's a lot to read in that the main melee feat, Power Attack, cannot be used in conjunction with it.  If it was really that idiosyncratic of an ability writers should have called out what feats can and can't be used with it.  Without statements to the contrary, you can use Power Attack and you use Strength to modify your attack roll b/c it's a melee attack.

P.S.:  why can't I Power Attack with a touch spell?  I see no mention that you can't in the Rules Compendium under either spells or touch attacks.  The only rules-based argument would be that the list of feats that can be applied to "weaponlike spells" is exhaustive.  But, that's a huge stretch:  there's nothing to indicate that it's an exclusive list, and given that the only feats listed are SRD ones, cutting out the vast majority of D&D's corpus.

[Empirate]

In that case, I'm gonna two-handedly PA with Vampiric Touch for a bit from now on. Sweet, sweet extra damage PLUS healing!

And do you think a PA'd Slay Living would deal the PA extra damage on a successful save?

What about Shivering Touch? I mean, ability damage is still damage, so PA bonus damage ought to apply, right?


In all seriousness, I think allowing Power Attack to work with touch range spells opens a can of worms. And I wouldn't allow it on Eldritch Glaive for the obvious reason that Eldritch Blast is an invocation, and invocations are spell-like abilities, and spell-like abilities work (mostly) just like spells, hence the name.

[zugschef]

I think it's pretty clear that you can Power Attack with it -- it's a melee attack and the distinction between doing "melee damage" and "edtritch glaive" damage strikes me as arcane in the extreme (heh).

it's completely irrelevant if it strikes you as arcane in the extreme. the rules are crystal clear in that regard. power attack increases melee damage whereas eldritch glaive explicitly does eldritch blast damage.

why can't I Power Attack with a touch spell?  I see no mention that you can't in the Rules Compendium under either spells or touch attacks.  The only rules-based argument would be that the list of feats that can be applied to "weaponlike spells" is exhaustive.  But, that's a huge stretch:  there's nothing to indicate that it's an exclusive list, and given that the only feats listed are SRD ones, cutting out the vast majority of D&D's corpus.

you totally can power attack with a touch spell, but you won't increase spell damage, since power attack explicitly only increases melee damage. you'll suffer the penalty to attack, though.

[Unbeliever]

In that case, I'm gonna two-handedly PA with Vampiric Touch for a bit from now on. Sweet, sweet extra damage PLUS healing!

And do you think a PA'd Slay Living would deal the PA extra damage on a successful save?

What about Shivering Touch? I mean, ability damage is still damage, so PA bonus damage ought to apply, right?


In all seriousness, I think allowing Power Attack to work with touch range spells opens a can of worms. And I wouldn't allow it on Eldritch Glaive for the obvious reason that Eldritch Blast is an invocation, and invocations are spell-like abilities, and spell-like abilities work (mostly) just like spells, hence the name.

Is there a good reason to treat Power Attack completely differently from Sneak Attack and other precision damage?  How about Favored Enemy bonuses? 

B/c the Shivering Touch example that you presented in reductio style is explicitly covered in those cases: Shivering Touch would deal extra negative energy damage.  As would Slay Living for that matter, on a successful save.  See Rules Compendium page 136. 

To be clear, Weapon Specialization, Sneak Attack, Favored Enemy, and Improved Critical all explicitly work in these instances.  So, why is Power Attack the odd man out? 

I'm trying to figure out what the argument would be.  My feeling is like JackintheGreen's -- it creates a thing that you make melee attacks with, and all melee abilities should apply.  It has to be treated the same way as Flame Dagger (melee touch attacks that you "can wield as if it were a dagger"), Thunderlance, Ice Axe, Flame Whips, etc. 

[Empirate]

Hmm. Was unaware of the Rules Compendium ruling (although the RC, which I have made a point of not buying, has come up with other stuff that strikes me as needless, illogical and generally not good rules material. Miss chance stacking is one thing off the top of my head). The "does extra negative energy damage" bit, as applied to Shivering Touch, for example, is interesting.

(click to show/hide)

What about Ray of Enfeeblement, btw? If you successfully sneak attack with that, would you deal actual (negative energy) damage despite the spell dealing only a Str penalty? Ray of Exhaustion? Is every weapon-like spell, i.e. every spell that needs an attack roll, eligible to do extra damage from Sneak Attack, Favored Enemy etc.?

So from a RAW perspective, I'm forced to concede you might have a point. However, would you allow charge damage multipliers, Decisive Strike etc. all the same for weapon-like spells/abilities? I haven't thought this through completely, but it not only strikes me as possibly "imba", it also makes no sense to me that you could strike "even harder" with something that just needs to connect at all (no matter how hard) to deal its damage.

[Unbeliever]

By the way, the sneak attack language is exactly the same in Complete Arcane (page 86).  I haven't given it much thought, but I'd probably allow the same rules for Ray of Enfeeblement, Exhaustion, etc.  Pretty much anything with an attack roll b/c I see no good reason to treat Enervation and Shivering Touch, which do stat damage and negative energy, as different and automatically superior to those spells. 

I would hesitate to automatically define Power Attack as swinging harder b/c that restricts concepts.  It surely seems that way, but it could just as easily be a haymaker (a broad swing) or a more targeted swing for a vulnerable point.  Aiming for the eyes or neck means you're more likely to miss than aiming for the center mass.  Also, the fact that something ignores plate mail doesn't automatically need you can't swing hard -- you can Power Attack with brilliant energy weapons.  But, all of that is secondary to the ruling's potential to remove potentially interesting concepts. 

For the record, just b/c it's RAW or a reasonable RAI, doesn't necessarily mean it's good for your table.  It depends on the firepower you're comfortable with and what works for your party.  My willingness to let someone Power Attack with Flame Blade or, more to the point of this thread, Eldritch Glaive comes from 2 observations. First, I'd hate to tell people that their only way to work that kind of build is through Sneak Attack or similar precision damage.  I don't see how that's automatically much more benign than Power Attack.  Second, I don't think the Glaivelock is a particularly powerful option.  But, that depends on what else is on the table and what your baseline is.  That's a good argument regardless of what the RAW is. 


P.S.:  the same would go with Decisive Strike.  If you can figure out how to Decisive Strike with a spell, then more power to you.  I can't see a good argument for distinguishing them.  Again, the relevant question would be how powerful that ends up being.  But, my gf was playing a Monk -- a totally powerful class we all know -- with Decisive Strike and she was doing a ton of base damage with a great attack bonus.  So, I don't know how much of an edge it represents.