People Whining About Mind Control: It Doesn't Work Like That!

[Amechra]

Sorry, this thread is kinda only tangentially related to the title; I only named it that because two players in my upcoming game have specifically asked me to ban Modify Memory, expressing extreme discomfort with the concept of the spell.

This is despite the fact that one of them had rape in his backstory (as the one performing it) until I told him that that was pretty unacceptable (dear god, it is a light-hearted game). And that the other's favorite archetypes are "guy that shapeshifts" and "guy that teleports."

Now, I can see why they would be antsy around it, due to how it can fundamentally alter the nature of a character; however, they still remained highly uncomfortable at the mention of it, even though I specifically stated that it wouldn't be used to modify any memories, and that it would only be used as a speedy information delivery system.

I kinda don't understand why they would be uncomfortable with it; can anyone tell me why they would be?

I mean, they have no problems with mind-control spells in general, so it isn't that.

To explain my stance on this, I view memories as a tangential thing to identity, rather than a sum total of that "thing." If you think about it, even if you lost, say, every memory of a good friend, you still would be, in a fundamental manner, the same person; learned behaviors are stored at a different "level" than actual memories, in different structures, so you would still respond in much the same manner unless more got damaged than just your memories.

As far as I'm concerned, the psyche has a low-level "stream of consciousness" that has the job of supplying continuity of experience; think of it as a little voice saying "I am <adjective>" over and over again, ad infinitum.

If I were to load 5 years of my memories into your head, you would react to them in a fundamentally different way than I would, regardless of whether or not you could tell if those memories were natural or implanted.

I would ask people reading my personal opinions to also take into account the fact that I really am dissatisfied with the whole "body stays in one shape" thing as well; if gender alteration wasn't so damn difficult/psychologically stressful/costly/long-term, I would try out being a woman for a few months to see what its like. I want to experience so many physical and psychological sensations that I literally cannot have in my own limited mind and body that it almost makes me cry.

But enough on that subject for now; why do you think they were uncomfortable with Modify Memory in particular?

[Jackinthegreen]

I imagine they are extremely sensitive about keeping control over their characters and don't want the possibility of there characters being mentally altered by anything.  I hope it's not actually a phobia or something that is making them uneasy.

Have they even read the spell word for word, or are they too bullheaded to even do that?  Because it says right in the spell description that the altered/deleted/new memory can only be 5 minutes at most, and that the DM can decided whether a memory is too nonsensical to really affect the target.

So it's possible they had a bad experience before and no longer trust any DM to use it appropriately.

[bhu]

I'm with Jack.  I've played with lots of people permannetly scarred by bad DM's fucking about with mind control, alignment reversal, possession, etc.

[veekie]

Mostly excessive caution, and character possessiveness, there are quite a lot of players out there who would object to ANY non-transient change to their characters by an external force, just as there are many DMs who can't be trusted to not use these changes to completely rewrite the characters.

[Jackinthegreen]

One option you might have is to use a line from Inception.  "I tell you not to think about elephants.  What are you thinking about now?"  "Elephants..."  "Exactly, but you know that I'm the one who gave you that idea."

Same concept.  You're only going to use the option where the characters know it's not their own ideas and memories, thus they won't be changed by them other than having more knowledge.

[Solo]

You don't need a spell to implant false memories.

[Amechra]

You don't need a spell to implant false memories.

I know have something I need to research even further than I did when I was younger (I can't even remember what year I was obsessed with mental alterations; I know it was in a range between 6th and 8th grades, considering the setting of most of the information I have from that era, but that could be me just conjuring stuff up! Ain't life grand?)

It probably is that they are just really possessive of their characters. That does make a great deal of sense...

[SneeR]

To explain my stance on this, I view memories as a tangential thing to identity, rather than a sum total of that "thing." If you think about it, even if you lost, say, every memory of a good friend, you still would be, in a fundamental manner, the same person; learned behaviors are stored at a different "level" than actual memories, in different structures, so you would still respond in much the same manner unless more got damaged than just your memories.

I disagree very much with this notion. This applies perhaps to deeply-ingrained habits, such as a verbal tic you learned from a lifetime friend, but many things which a person might base around a memory of another can be considered facets of a person's identity in the present. After all, I would consider one's "identity" to be their preferences and proclivities at any one point in time.

Say, for example, that a fellow has a high school sweetheart and dates her for years. He goes to college and becomes engrossed in his studies, gaining a LOT of weight, no matter how much she objects. He just doesn't have time! Well, she breaks up with him and makes remark after biting remark about how vile a person he has become because he won't take care of himself. He swears to exercise everyday after that point because his self-esteem has been so marred by her. For him, exercise is antithetical to his nature, but every time he looks at himself in the mirror, he hears her voice echo in his head and feels the pain of his emotional scars. A year later, he has lost all of the weight and looks pretty good, though he still exercises. His friends think of him as a health junkie now. Suddenly, he loses all memories of his odious ex. Now he doesn't know why he exercises so hard or denies himself even an occasional cheeseburger. Health suddenly matters a lot less because he doesn't carry the mental scars of her emotional abuse.

A lot of life decisions are based around the realization of how one COULD have kept another person in their life and the regret of losing them.

[Jackinthegreen]

It's not always so much keeping people in one's life as learning about how people are people.  For example, I learned a lot from my first girlfriend despite there being pretty much no way for us to work out certain differences like religion.  I don't look upon my experiences with her as a lost chance, but as a learning experience about myself and others.  Losing my memories of her would definitely set me back.

So yes, I totally know where the issue is of memories being precious and would never condone the use of the majority of memory-modifying effects save for extreme circumstances.

[zook1shoe]

Ever read Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth book series?

Well if not, in one of the later books, there's a horribly powerful spell used to erase the memory of an important person from nearly everyone's memory. It starts changing all of their memories that were even remotely involved. These changes began to then unravel other memories due to the paradoxes of the changed memories and complications from another powerful magic.


Can you imagine the effects of someone erasing the memories of your mother (assuming you had a long relationship into adulthood). It would shatter or change drastically nearly all of your memories.

It might change your basic personality, but it may affect you in deeper ways.


As a player, I would not like the DM screwing with the concept of my character. You can go ahead a shot arrows at me or chop me up. But screwing with a character concept without my input, is along the same lines as destroying all of a fighter's gear and no one else's.

[Kajhera]

With only 5 minutes and no ability to read deeply into the mind, Modify Memory seems most useful for keeping immediate secrets, improving recall, and implanting false memories ... not removing memories that the caster might not even know enough about to visualize. Further it's not impossible to tell when your actions are influenced by a repressed memory - would probably be similar for noticing influence from a removed one. It doesn't change your other memories.
It's still some intense stuff, and there is a reason my group views [mind affecting] spells offensively or carelessly used as quite easy to be more evil than [necromancy].

[Amechra]

Alright, allow me to slightly clarify my argument.

I do not argue that certain memories are important in your identity; however, if I you lost half your memories about your mother, say, what is the chance that you'd hit one that modifies your personality when its lost?

I'm arguing that memories, in and of themselves, are not identity.

As to Sword of Truth... I first read them when I was in 4th grade. I picked them back up more recently, and Terry Goodkind is not a writer whose style I can take for longer than a certain amount.

Also, note that I said nothing about tinkering with their character, just that I would have potentially used it as a faster method of talking (just upload 5 minutes of really fast conversation into their brain).

This wouldn't be Golden Years Tarnished Black.

It would be telepathy+. Done only with prior consent of the players (which is why this came up in the first place) and of their characters in-game.

And, now that I think about it, it looks like neither of them actually has had a bad DM vis a vis mind control and loss of player agency...

[Kajhera]

Ah, looking at it again, maybe because they don't really know how to react to getting an implanted memory and processing the information. Also I'm not sure how you're using it for speedy information delivery when it takes an equal amount of time to implant the memory as the amount of memory time you modify.
One way you can allow other beings access to memories is giving it to them as an imagined book or movie to look through at their leisure, with the understanding it is someone else's memory. Maybe use that method for information delivery, opposed to the more confusing aspect of getting the information directly?
Finding out too many of your memories are false can be very painful. A lesser version of this might also put some stress on sanity. The closest thing I can think of though is waking up from a dream and briefly being convinced of its reality, then getting confused as I slowly figure out it's nonsensical.

- Oh, I've started working again on some meditations to get greater control over my mind and senses and start practicing to do things like controlled hallucination, greater concentration and dream control - I don't know if any of my sources are effective yet but if you're interested in self-mind-control I can let you know if I actually get any of it working.

[Amechra]

That would be wonderful if you could; my main barrier to, say, lucid dreaming is that all of my lucid dreams in the past have been nightmares.

Apparently I hate myself that much.

I actually spoke to one of them more recently (I ran into him on the way back from class); he clarified his position about the whole thing that it pretty much is that he likes his character as he is and doesn't want him to change in a non-organic manner.

And the other guy had to drop out of the game, so there you go. His playstyle is completely different from the other players (they've actually never played together, but I've played with both him and the other people, and his entire approach to the game is drastically different), so it is probably for the best.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

As an upstanding member of the Mind Control(-er's)
Guild, I must say that the "whining" is purely intentional.

 

[zook1shoe]

Rereading the spell... Yeah they shouldn't have much to worry about. I was thinking of a half-Mindrape type spell

[Raineh Daze]

Huh, looking at the memory stuff... I think, from what I remember about memory from psychology classes, that it is pretty much true that memory is made up of different areas, and if you were to wipe all memories of events from someone, they would still retain the same basic personality and skills. You should look up Clive Wearing if you're interested in that.

[veekie]

Character wise, it's also a pretty strong trope.
In a lot of fiction and myths, your memories act as a sort of context, overlaid upon your personality. It may change how you treat certain things(since you 'lost' all your friends and enemies, having to assign new ones), but nothing you'd do under altered memory is something you wouldn't do given the right circumstances.

Someone motivated by altruism would remain a generous and helpful person, but the preferred subjects of such may be changed. Someone motivated by duty and loyalty would follow their chosen leader regardless, but they would be following a very different leader.