Author Topic: Katana=Schimitar? Discuss.  (Read 26467 times)

Offline bobthe6th

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Katana=Schimitar? Discuss.
« on: February 13, 2013, 08:14:15 PM »
It just always bothered me that the sword made to be sharp as hell has a normal sword crit rate. On top of that EWP bastard sword is demeaning. "I just spent a feat to deal +1 damage! yay!"


So make katanas be one handed martial slashing or piercing weapons, that deal 1d6 damage at medium & have a 18-20/x2 crit rate? Would mean messing with some magic items, and making the samurai class not suck.
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Offline Agita

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Re: Katana=Schimitar? Discuss.
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2013, 08:21:37 PM »
No, the Samurai would still suck. :P
It's a fair enough change overall, though.
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Offline ImperatorK

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Re: Katana=Schimitar? Discuss.
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2013, 08:22:56 PM »
I use elven courtblade.
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Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Katana=Schimitar? Discuss.
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2013, 08:43:34 PM »
They're better if they're made from uranium :P
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Offline bobthe6th

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Re: Katana=Schimitar? Discuss.
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2013, 08:51:41 PM »
Courtblade is fun... though it doesn't offer a possible one handed style that tends to be iconic of the katana in a lot of modern media.
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Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Katana=Schimitar? Discuss.
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2013, 09:19:12 PM »
Agreed with the above.  Any reason not to split the baby and make them deal 1d8 damage, 18-20/x2 and have the handed mechanics of a bastard sword (2 handed is martial, so like a falcion, one handed is EWP, so like a thinblade)? 

Offline bobthe6th

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Re: Katana=Schimitar? Discuss.
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2013, 09:25:45 PM »
Would need to add a specific ruling that it can be finnessed while two handing... though I would argue shifting it to dealing 1d10 damage, 18-20/x2 would make them a solid weapon.

But yeah, I could see that as a katana. Though I would probably rule that the stats for a schimitar could also be called a katanna.
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Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Katana=Schimitar? Discuss.
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2013, 09:28:09 PM »
The thinblade equivalent might work.  1d8 18-20, can be finessed (both 1h and 2h it looks like), and it'll still deal 1.5x str damage while being used 2h.

Offline Agita

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Re: Katana=Schimitar? Discuss.
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2013, 09:28:17 PM »
Agreed with the above.  Any reason not to split the baby and make them deal 1d8 damage, 18-20/x2 and have the handed mechanics of a bastard sword (2 handed is martial, so like a falcion, one handed is EWP, so like a thinblade)?
There's actually a "great scimitar" in Sandstorm that works exactly like that.
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Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Katana=Schimitar? Discuss.
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2013, 09:31:28 PM »
The great scimitar from SS is 2d6, 2h, 18-20 crit, can't be finessed of course.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Katana=Schimitar? Discuss.
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2013, 09:34:54 PM »
They're better if they're made from uranium :P
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Offline Agita

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Re: Katana=Schimitar? Discuss.
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2013, 09:45:03 PM »
The great scimitar from SS is 2d6, 2h, 18-20 crit, can't be finessed of course.
Either your copy of Sandstorm is different from mine or you're misremembering, because I'm looking at it now and the great scimitar is 1d8, 18-20/x2, and a bastard sword-style 1h/2h weapon.
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Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Katana=Schimitar? Discuss.
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2013, 09:46:43 PM »
The great scimitar from SS is 2d6, 2h, 18-20 crit, can't be finessed of course.
Either your copy of Sandstorm is different from mine or you're misremembering, because I'm looking at it now and the great scimitar is 1d8, 18-20/x2, and a bastard sword-style 1h/2h weapon.

I had a derp and switched it with the great falchion...  Carry on.

while we're talking about errors, anyone got a d43?  Apparently that's how much damage a medium scorpion-tail whip does/   :lmao
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 10:03:13 PM by Jackinthegreen »

Offline veekie

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Re: Katana=Schimitar? Discuss.
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2013, 11:17:04 PM »
Would need to add a specific ruling that it can be finnessed while two handing... though I would argue shifting it to dealing 1d10 damage, 18-20/x2 would make them a solid weapon.

But yeah, I could see that as a katana. Though I would probably rule that the stats for a schimitar could also be called a katanna.
Well, if it's a 'realistic' katana, it's not all that finessable, but the finesse option itself doesn't really impact balance much. So yeah, keener, but lower base damage bastard sword should do.
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Offline Cyclone Joker

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Re: Katana=Schimitar? Discuss.
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2013, 02:58:01 AM »
Why are katanas considered so special? They were really just generally well-crafted longswords(Or bastard swords, according to those incapable of basic research at WotC) made of really crappy metal.

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Katana=Schimitar? Discuss.
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2013, 03:16:14 AM »
Part of it is the whole "alternate culture awesomeness" thing.  The thing they didn't really take into account was katana are not actually that big and can be used one-handed with as much effort as a normal arming sword, or longsword in D&D terms.

A weapon they might have been thinking of instead is the nodachi or odachi (same sword form, just a change in name over the years), which is the big two-handed swords that were typically three to four feet long.  Those would definitely take special training to use one-handed if they could even be wielded like that.

Offline veekie

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Re: Katana=Schimitar? Discuss.
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2013, 06:36:03 AM »
Why are katanas considered so special? They were really just generally well-crafted longswords(Or bastard swords, according to those incapable of basic research at WotC) made of really crappy metal.
There is a bit more difference than that. Katanas trade off raw impact power(read, lower damage dice) for a more vicious edge(read, bigger crit range), relative to a longsword. The longsword can culturally be expected to have to contend with armored opponents, but the katana generally did not, thus it's designed to messily eviscerate lightly armored enemies after the battle has gone from archery to cavalry with spears to the final melee. However, from what I've seen, while they CAN be used one handed, that is certainly neither easy nor the standard mode of use. It's not like ancient Japan did much dual wielding or shields.

Craftsmanship doesn't really factor into it, except due to the scarcity of metal in ancient Japan, they'd always be made masterwork, because there simply wasn't enough good metal to do otherwise.
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Offline Vicerious

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Re: Katana=Schimitar? Discuss.
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2013, 09:03:49 AM »
Veekie, that was a well-put and concise post, but I'm afraid I am forced to utterly destroy your arguments.  Behold, irrefutable truth:
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Offline brujon

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Re: Katana=Schimitar? Discuss.
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2013, 10:36:21 AM »
Would need to add a specific ruling that it can be finnessed while two handing... though I would argue shifting it to dealing 1d10 damage, 18-20/x2 would make them a solid weapon.

But yeah, I could see that as a katana. Though I would probably rule that the stats for a schimitar could also be called a katanna.
Well, if it's a 'realistic' katana, it's not all that finessable, but the finesse option itself doesn't really impact balance much. So yeah, keener, but lower base damage bastard sword should do.

As someone who did a bit of Kendo, i agree with the above. Katana's are not wielded with finesse, they're wielded as a proper blade. You don't make quick, successive, weightless attacks, but rather, you attack through power slashes. Each slash is meant to be lethal, and you're taught how to put the weight of your body into each blow, swinging your hips and forwarding your torso. Sure, with training you can do it faster and faster, but this is precisely what's covered by BAB anyway.

That said, Katana's aren't any sharper than european swords, this is a flawed comparison that was popularized by a century of Samurai movies that romanticized both the sword and the warrior.

Katana's were generally expensive in Japan, because iron there is much rarer, and it comes in powdered form, or "iron sand" (tamahagane), instead of the iron veins that are common throghout Europe, which are much easier to work with. Because their iron is harder to work with, swordsmiths had to get creative to get the most out of what they had, and the folding steel technique, the soft iron core with hardened steel outside, and the curved blades, were all adjustments made to increase the efficiency of the sword. European swords on the other hand were made of generally superior steel, in crucibles, which also had the ability to achieve greater temperatures than the fanned ovens of Japan. The swords were heavier, and made with higher carbon content steel, which meaned a sharper edge and more weight behind each cut.

In my opinion, the Katana and the european Longsword/Bastard Sword are not sufficiently different to be awarded different statistics on D&D. Bear in mind that Katana's have a range of different sizes,from 60 to 73cm (According to Wikipedia), while the common Bastard Sword had a range from 100 to 122cm. So by that logic, a Katana would be more appropriately categorized as dealing the same damage as a Longsword instead of a Bastard Sword, with the caveat of being able to wield it with 2 hands for 1.5 strength on damage.
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Offline Garryl

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Re: Katana=Schimitar? Discuss.
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2013, 10:44:39 AM »
In my opinion, the Katana and the european Longsword/Bastard Sword are not sufficiently different to be awarded different statistics on D&D. Bear in mind that Katana's have a range of different sizes,from 60 to 73cm (According to Wikipedia), while the common Bastard Sword had a range from 100 to 122cm. So by that logic, a Katana would be more appropriately categorized as dealing the same damage as a Longsword instead of a Bastard Sword, with the caveat of being able to wield it with 2 hands for 1.5 strength on damage.

As a one-handed weapon, you can already wield a Longsword in 2 hands for 1.5 strength on damage. No special rules required.