Author Topic: Katana=Schimitar? Discuss.  (Read 26448 times)

Offline brujon

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Re: Katana=Schimitar? Discuss.
« Reply #60 on: February 21, 2013, 03:16:04 PM »
Therefore, its basically 'apples and oranges'.
Those are quite easy to compare. For a good example, see my sig.

Amusing link. The way i see it, the problem lies within the very definition of the word comparison.

Quote from: Merriam Webster Definition
1 : to describe as similar <compare an anthill to a town>
2 : to examine in order to discover likenesses or differences <compare two bicycles>
3 a : to be worthy of comparison <roller-skating does not compare with ice-skating> b : to appear in comparison to others <compares well with the rest of the class>
4 : to inflect or modify (an adjective or adverb) according to the degrees of comparison

http://www.wordcentral.com/cgi-bin/student?compare

In the analogy, it is clear that they're using the 1st definition of compare, saying that you can't compare apples to oranges because they're not, in fact, similar. But this is false, because you can, in fact, compare very different things, like the very example in the definition "compare an anthill to a town".

In addition, in most arguments, the definition used is the second one, "to examine in order to discover likeness and differences". Using the first argument to refute another argument that is using the second form of compare, is in fact committing a logical fallacy by reducing the actual meaning of the word compare in the context.

The fact is, you can compare anything to anything, both in the first and second meanings of the word Compare, but the adage attempts to extract a different meaning from the first definition, that is more restrictive than it actually is, i.e "to compare similar things". It's a fallacy, first and foremost, because you can't determine similarity before using the more broad form of compare, which is the second definition, and thus, the fallacy contradicts itself, since by stating that apples and oranges are different, means a form of comparison has already been made in order to produce that sentence.

So, not only saying "you're comparing apples and oranges" in order to reduce the value of a given comparison is a logical fallacy, it's also patently wrong.
"All the pride and pleasure of the world, mirrored in the dull consciousness of a fool, are poor indeed compared with the imagination of Cervantes writing his Don Quixote in a miserable prison" - Schopenhauer, Aphorisms: The Wisdom of Life

Offline Halinn

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Re: Katana=Schimitar? Discuss.
« Reply #61 on: February 21, 2013, 03:34:27 PM »
In the analogy, it is clear that they're using the 1st definition of compare, saying that you can't compare apples to oranges because they're not, in fact, similar.
IR spectroscopy begs to differ with regards to their similarity. :)

Offline brujon

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Re: Katana=Schimitar? Discuss.
« Reply #62 on: February 21, 2013, 03:52:30 PM »
In the analogy, it is clear that they're using the 1st definition of compare, saying that you can't compare apples to oranges because they're not, in fact, similar.
IR spectroscopy begs to differ with regards to their similarity. :)

I know, but that's besides the point i was arguing... And by using a different standard of comparison, i can find a lot of differences. For instance, macroscopic analysis shows that their structure is very dissimilar.
"All the pride and pleasure of the world, mirrored in the dull consciousness of a fool, are poor indeed compared with the imagination of Cervantes writing his Don Quixote in a miserable prison" - Schopenhauer, Aphorisms: The Wisdom of Life

Offline Halinn

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Re: Katana=Schimitar? Discuss.
« Reply #63 on: February 21, 2013, 04:52:29 PM »
Blurred black and white photographs would show them to be indistinguishable from each other :P
Anyways, I think that we more or less agree on the conclusion from the research paper
Quote from: Apples and Oranges -- A Comparison
Conclusions
Not only was this comparison easy to make, but it is apparent from the figure that apples and oranges are very similar. Thus, it would appear that the comparing apples and oranges defense should no longer be considered valid. This is a somewhat startling revelation. It can be anticipated to have a dramatic effect on the strategies used in arguments and discussions in the future.

Offline Bloody Initiate

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Re: Katana=Schimitar? Discuss.
« Reply #64 on: February 22, 2013, 01:08:17 PM »
There's a 3rd party source book called "mercenaries" I think that offers more of what should have been in the game to begin with regarding martial weapons and craftsmanship.

Something that annoys the hell out of me with D&D is that crafting is the realm of wizards and "well-made" = "magic." The best a smith can do is make something "masterwork" or "dwarvencraft."

I like non-magical power, it's harder to detect, harder to dispel, and more cost-effective (Although since 3.5 hates non-magic it's also extremely easy to destroy with level 1 spells).

So that mercenaries book gives you options like laminated weapons (I think it's "laminated," but it's layered steel) that add +1 damage I think and serrated weapons that add +1 crit range (Again, going on my memory here).

The point is there just isn't a lot of room for mundane improvement in D&D, and mundane improvement is exactly what made feudal weapon technology special. Katanas were a brilliant design for their time and location, but the superior craftsmanship and all that were what made things special. There were great craftsman all over the world making weapons for the combat appropriate to their time and place too, comparing them is silly.

It's not apples and oranges, it's the craft skill making a difference instead of being magic, and the differences in mundane power being irrelevant compared to magic. Weighing the value of +1 damage vs. +2 potential damage is exactly the problem with the non-magic classes. It's completely irrelevant past level 2 and you aren't getting a big boost one way or the other. Who cares if your weapon is better at slashing than piercing? You still suck because you brought a sword in the first place. Nothing about D&D 3.5 supports debates like these. It's a black hole in the system.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 01:19:44 PM by Bloody Initiate »
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Offline littha

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Re: Katana=Schimitar? Discuss.
« Reply #65 on: February 22, 2013, 03:06:57 PM »
There is a Nonmagical +2 Katana in Oriental Adventures if I recall.

Edit: Yep, Kakita Katana, nonmagical +2 bonus for 9400gp

Supposedly it is made of superior steel by master smiths.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 03:10:42 PM by littha »

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Katana=Schimitar? Discuss.
« Reply #66 on: February 22, 2013, 03:45:42 PM »
Was there ever a Separate thread for weapon
and armor mods that are Not magical ??

Like non-Pun level Shaedling or psi Crystal items.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/specialMaterials.htm
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Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Katana=Schimitar? Discuss.
« Reply #67 on: March 03, 2013, 01:31:51 AM »
There is a Nonmagical +2 Katana in Oriental Adventures if I recall.

Edit: Yep, Kakita Katana, nonmagical +2 bonus for 9400gp

Supposedly it is made of superior steel by master smiths.

I'm reminded of "super masterwork" items in some Dragonlance book.  Can't remember exactly which one right now, but the masterwork bonus went up to +5 if I recall correctly.

Offline brujon

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Re: Katana=Schimitar? Discuss.
« Reply #68 on: March 03, 2013, 04:01:24 AM »
There is a Nonmagical +2 Katana in Oriental Adventures if I recall.

Edit: Yep, Kakita Katana, nonmagical +2 bonus for 9400gp

Supposedly it is made of superior steel by master smiths.

I'm reminded of "super masterwork" items in some Dragonlance book.  Can't remember exactly which one right now, but the masterwork bonus went up to +5 if I recall correctly.

That actually sounds pretty cool. Crafting as a skill is generally not very valued, and being able to craft quasimagical items out of a high craft skill definetely breathes life into that. It also gives a purpose to higher level Expert smiths, which otherwise, don't serve much purpose outside of poking fun at how ridiculous it is to be able to keep upping your craft DC in order to craft items faster. Katana in 5 minutes flat! COME GET ONE NOW! LIMITED TIME OFFER!

=P
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Offline bobthe6th

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Re: Katana=Schimitar? Discuss.
« Reply #69 on: March 03, 2013, 02:43:37 PM »
For crafting, you could just offer a feat with a craft (armor/weapons/bows) 8 ranks prereque, that allows you to craft magical arms and armor as extraordinary skill. They can only craft up to (ranks in the skill-3)/3 enhancement bonus.

Bam, you now have non magical crafter that matters.
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Offline InnaBinder

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Re: Katana=Schimitar? Discuss.
« Reply #70 on: March 03, 2013, 02:53:09 PM »
I may be an outlier, but I'm indifferent to realism in my D&D weaponry.  I'm happy that Scimitars and Rapiers do what they do in 3E D&D b/c they fill a niche:  lower damage, higher crit.  I don't really have a great sense of whether that captures how Rapiers "really" work.  I could see the argument for it, but it's not particularly relevant to me.  Hell, the system is so damn unrealistic to begin with ...

The idea is how the stats capture a fantasy narrative.  And, perhaps more importantly b/c all weapons should be more or less balanced against each other, should be worth using.  If I were running a game and my one Crane Samurai player wanted to use the stats for a Thinblade (or Courtblade, etc.) for a Katana, I'd say have at him.  If I were running a L5R game, so that katanas might abound, I might actually fire up wikipedia or something and give them some variations.
Agreed.  The whole "the katana as described in a fantasy setting where dragons and magical teleportation exist aren't described accurately enough by real-world standards" thing just makes me headdesk.
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Offline brujon

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Re: Katana=Schimitar? Discuss.
« Reply #71 on: March 03, 2013, 07:51:13 PM »
For crafting, you could just offer a feat with a craft (armor/weapons/bows) 8 ranks prereque, that allows you to craft magical arms and armor as extraordinary skill. They can only craft up to (ranks in the skill-3)/3 enhancement bonus.

Bam, you now have non magical crafter that matters.

But then you make magical crafting, which requires XP, irrelevant. I think the idea of having a super masterwork bonus that accept enchantments on top of it is overall a better idea. It makes mundanes relevant while at the same time benefitting magical crafting, because they can now have access to better base materials.
"All the pride and pleasure of the world, mirrored in the dull consciousness of a fool, are poor indeed compared with the imagination of Cervantes writing his Don Quixote in a miserable prison" - Schopenhauer, Aphorisms: The Wisdom of Life

Offline bobthe6th

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Re: Katana=Schimitar? Discuss.
« Reply #72 on: March 03, 2013, 08:15:04 PM »
But then you make magical crafting, which requires XP, irrelevant. I think the idea of having a super masterwork bonus that accept enchantments on top of it is overall a better idea. It makes mundanes relevant while at the same time benefitting magical crafting, because they can now have access to better base materials.

Or just make enhancement bonus come from mundane, and magic can just add special abilities.
Or make mundane cost XP to, like the caster is putting a bit of his soul into the item.
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Offline veekie

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Re: Katana=Schimitar? Discuss.
« Reply #73 on: March 03, 2013, 11:11:25 PM »
For crafting, you could just offer a feat with a craft (armor/weapons/bows) 8 ranks prereque, that allows you to craft magical arms and armor as extraordinary skill. They can only craft up to (ranks in the skill-3)/3 enhancement bonus.

Bam, you now have non magical crafter that matters.

But then you make magical crafting, which requires XP, irrelevant. I think the idea of having a super masterwork bonus that accept enchantments on top of it is overall a better idea. It makes mundanes relevant while at the same time benefitting magical crafting, because they can now have access to better base materials.
If it generates only enhancement bonuses? Not really, while armor doesn't really have much in the way of good enhancements, weapons have quite the range of special effects to tag on that are fully worth the magical crafting process.

Of course, crafting, magical AND nonmagical is still screwy.
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Offline FlaminCows

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Re: Katana=Schimitar? Discuss.
« Reply #74 on: April 07, 2013, 03:43:23 AM »
There is a Nonmagical +2 Katana in Oriental Adventures if I recall.

Edit: Yep, Kakita Katana, nonmagical +2 bonus for 9400gp

Supposedly it is made of superior steel by master smiths.

I'm reminded of "super masterwork" items in some Dragonlance book.  Can't remember exactly which one right now, but the masterwork bonus went up to +5 if I recall correctly.

That actually sounds pretty cool. Crafting as a skill is generally not very valued, and being able to craft quasimagical items out of a high craft skill definetely breathes life into that. It also gives a purpose to higher level Expert smiths, which otherwise, don't serve much purpose outside of poking fun at how ridiculous it is to be able to keep upping your craft DC in order to craft items faster.
If you like that sort of thing, there's also the Artisan Craftsman feat in Dragon 358. Allows you to add some nonmagical qualities to your stuff.
Quote
Katana in 5 minutes flat! COME GET ONE NOW! LIMITED TIME OFFER!
Reminds me of Gary the Cobbler. Just an ordinary Standard Array Level 1 Commoner craftsman. He's just an apprentice, really, to a higher-level master.

He can make 433 pairs of leather shoes per week.

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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Katana=Schimitar? Discuss.
« Reply #75 on: April 07, 2013, 02:46:30 PM »
 :plotting :D

Y'know ... in-game terms, the katana "is" awesome.
And just because somebody says so.  Therefore
for balance purposes, that awesome must
have some sort of penalty applied, to keep it's awesomeness
from overwhelming the poor rest of the party.
Let's say a (-1) penalty to Will [Mind Affecting] saves.
stacking each time the PC feels compelled
to say how awesome their katana is, especially compared to un-awesome non-katanas.
Note:  this is not an actual penalty.  It's assumed into the awesomeness of the katana.
It's no more a penalty to a katana user, than it is for
Q to take human form to fvck with Captain Picard.


Sry about the redundant un-awesome tag on the non-katanas.
Anything that isn't a katana is apriori (!) also not awesome,
and it's a waste of every katana lovers time, to even suggest
that it's non-katana-ness needs to be explained as not awesome.
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