Advice for a noobie with clerics low-mid level

[Weaveshear2012]

HI everyone. in three days form now my DM will be setting a campaign(FR) for me to play a cleric of Mask starting 8lv and i may yet reach to 13 . . As i said on the title i don't have a clue for building a cleric (well aside the very basics like higest stat is WIS and e.t.c.) because while the cleric handbook has really cool stuff, for someone totally inexperienced in the class it could mean disaster instead of help and guidance. Other than that i don't want broken or overly cheesy stuff. I already decided that he will be human in race and i have 85 ability points to distribute on my abilities (it is not the point buy system) however i want. Other facts of note is that no ACF are allowed and the allowed books are core , everything in forgotten realms campaign setitng , and the "Comlete" series of books as well as spell compedium and MIC .Now for sure i will be getting help from at most two other npcs that i have no knowldge of, as you can see choices are really limited because he is kind of strict and so i cannot do much other than ask for help . I m guessing that i will  have to be  the main divine caster of the "party" and most likely of evil or neutral alignment. i would rally apreciate any advice , especially those for spell selection. PRCing is available

[Rebel7284]

Paragraphs.  Learn to use them. 

Besides that, Divine Metamagic and Persistent Spell are both in your sources and those are the only things you need to make a very resilient character.

[Concerned Ninja Citizen]

I suspect DMM/Persist qualifies as "overly cheesy" in this context. It does in most low to mid op games (which is most games.)

Can you explain or link to an explanation of the ability generation system you're using? 85 points doesn't map to any system I'm familiar with.

The first thing you want to decide is what you want your role to be. Cleric is a great class in that it is powerful and versatile but it's so versatile that newer players can get overwhelmed with options and end up with a substandard build.

According to the FR Wiki Clerics of Mask must be evil. However, you'll want to ask your DM whether he's going by that chart or by the standard "within one step" rule. If the latter, you can be true Neutral, and I probably would unless it's an explicitly evil campaign.

Of Mask's available Domains, Luck and Trickery are the best by a long shot. They both have solid domain spells and the Luck Domain power is potentially lifesaving. The Trickery power is really good with the Cloistered Cleric variant but you're not allowed to use that so you won't have the skill points to really take advantage of it. This depends somewhat on ability generation. If it's generous and you can afford a 14 or so in Int (would need to be very generous. Int is pretty much a dump stat for non Cloistered Clerics) you might be able to take advantage of the extra class skills.

A key decision you want to make is whether you're going to attack and, if so, how. Clerics can do both ranged and melee but they can also rely on spells or a reserve feat (from complete mage) in combat and not need to attack. This is a key decision because it determines which attributes you want to focus on. It depends partly on the rest of the party. If you've got multiple martial characters already, ignoring attacking is more attractive.

The spells you want to prepare depend somewhat on the role you're trying to fill so I'll come back to that later.

Lastly a note on healing: preparing healing spells is usually a bad idea. Casting them in combat is almost always a bad idea. You want to get your healing from wands of lesser vigor used outside combat and healing belts used in combat if it's really dire. Get the party to pony up for at least a wand and a belt each or refuse to heal them. You're not a good character, after all.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Paragraphs.  Learn to use them. 

Besides that, Divine Metamagic and Persistent Spell are both in your sources and those are the only things you need to make a very resilient character.

2nd , except ...

Only Lawful aligned Clerics absolutely do use paragraphs.
LE and LG Clerics will on occasion sacrifice a paragraph
break for good or evil purposes, respectively.  But not always.
 

[Jackinthegreen]

Besides those unknown NPCs you talked about, are there other characters to be in your group?  Do you know what their builds might be like?  One of the things about clerics is they can really stomp on some toes, especially of the martial characters thanks to Divine Power.

As for stat generation, I assume all your stats will add up to 85?  That's enough to have 14 in 5 stats and 15 in the sixth.  If you're going to be a primary caster, expect Wis to be your main stat probably followed by Con or Cha if you can get some feats to add your casting based on rebuke attempts or Cha in general.

If you don't know what your partymates might be, do you have any preference for the role you want to play?  Clerics are versatile after all, so chances are a role you want can be covered.


Because of the clause in the cleric description about not being to to be True Neutral unless your deity is, you'll probably be Evil unless your DM waives that rule.

[Pteryx]

There is one significant issue concerning evil clerics and clerics of evil gods: They can't heal as readily under their own power as people expect of a cleric since their spontaneous casting yields Inflict * Wounds spells instead of Cure * Wounds spells.  The usual newbie advice of getting a wand of Cure Light Wounds and/or a wand of Lesser Vigor thus goes double for you.  CLW is less predictable but can be used in mid-fight if need be, while LV is much more efficient for out-of-combat healing but too slow to bother with in mid-fight.  You may also want to get a Healing Belt from the MIC to supplement your wand; since the Healing Belt's use is a swift action, if in-combat healing becomes unavoidable you can use both a Cure * Wounds spell (either directly or via wand) and the belt in the same turn (Never mind, somehow my entire game table got confused on that one -- probably because the MIC is full of swift action items).  -- Pteryx

[Jackinthegreen]

Healing Belt is a standard action to use, as noted in its description.

(click to show/hide)

HEALING BELT
Price (Item Level): 750 gp (3rd)
Body Slot: Waist
Caster Level: 3rd
Aura: Faint; (DC 16) conjuration
Activation: — and standard (command)
Weight: 1 lb.

[Weaveshear2012]

I suspect DMM/Persist qualifies as "overly cheesy" in this context. It does in most low to mid op games (which is most games.)

Can you explain or link to an explanation of the ability generation system you're using? 85 points doesn't map to any system I'm familiar with.

The first thing you want to decide is what you want your role to be. Cleric is a great class in that it is powerful and versatile but it's so versatile that newer players can get overwhelmed with options and end up with a substandard build.

According to the FR Wiki Clerics of Mask must be evil. However, you'll want to ask your DM whether he's going by that chart or by the standard "within one step" rule. If the latter, you can be true Neutral, and I probably would unless it's an explicitly evil campaign.

Of Mask's available Domains, Luck and Trickery are the best by a long shot. They both have solid domain spells and the Luck Domain power is potentially lifesaving. The Trickery power is really good with the Cloistered Cleric variant but you're not allowed to use that so you won't have the skill points to really take advantage of it. This depends somewhat on ability generation. If it's generous and you can afford a 14 or so in Int (would need to be very generous. Int is pretty much a dump stat for non Cloistered Clerics) you might be able to take advantage of the extra class skills.

A key decision you want to make is whether you're going to attack and, if so, how. Clerics can do both ranged and melee but they can also rely on spells or a reserve feat (from complete mage) in combat and not need to attack. This is a key decision because it determines which attributes you want to focus on. It depends partly on the rest of the party. If you've got multiple martial characters already, ignoring attacking is more attractive.

The spells you want to prepare depend somewhat on the role you're trying to fill so I'll come back to that later.

Lastly a note on healing: preparing healing spells is usually a bad idea. Casting them in combat is almost always a bad idea. You want to get your healing from wands of lesser vigor used outside combat and healing belts used in combat if it's really dire. Get the party to pony up for at least a wand and a belt each or refuse to heal them. You're not a good character, after all.

 Well, Jackinthgreen got right my ability system . i start every ability with 0 and can distribute 85 points in tital. Of course the limitation for  max18 before racial adjustments still exists  and since i will be roleplaying i cannot afford an ability below 7 at worst and i do not plan to.

As for the role, i would like to be the primary caster and as of Evil alignment i will not be healing others too much so that i can use my slots in debuffing , batllefield control(just a bit of this one) and some ocasional blasting if i have enough spell slots left. I would choose the same domains , except if somenoe more experienced than me in here said otherwise. He might allow cloistered cleric , but he absolutely refuses any info for any of the npcs , but i m sure there will be at least one brute handy for melee. As a note he told me not to comletely neglect STR and CON ( though i always keep my COn as high as possible) because i "might" find myself in unwanted exchanges in melee. If icould choose my role i would say destroing the enemy using my pretty resernoire of spells in a back away corner away form melee, but i can also beacome a melee monster so i cannot be sure.

[Weaveshear2012]

There is one significant issue concerning evil clerics and clerics of evil gods: They can't heal as readily under their own power as people expect of a cleric since their spontaneous casting yields Inflict * Wounds spells instead of Cure * Wounds spells.  The usual newbie advice of getting a wand of Cure Light Wounds and/or a wand of Lesser Vigor thus goes double for you.  CLW is less predictable but can be used in mid-fight if need be, while LV is much more efficient for out-of-combat healing but too slow to bother with in mid-fight.  You may also want to get a Healing Belt from the MIC to supplement your wand; since the Healing Belt's use is a swift action, if in-combat healing becomes unavoidable you can use both a Cure * Wounds spell (either directly or via wand) and the belt in the same turn (Never mind, somehow my entire game table got confused on that one -- probably because the MIC is full of swift action items).  -- Pteryx

yes i will have them buy a belt of healing as well as a wand for themselves and i m not going to step down on that matter.

Besides those unknown NPCs you talked about, are there other characters to be in your group?  Do you know what their builds might be like?  One of the things about clerics is they can really stomp on some toes, especially of the martial characters thanks to Divine Power.

As for stat generation, I assume all your stats will add up to 85?  That's enough to have 14 in 5 stats and 15 in the sixth.  If you're going to be a primary caster, expect Wis to be your main stat probably followed by Con or Cha if you can get some feats to add your casting based on rebuke attempts or Cha in general.

If you don't know what your partymates might be, do you have any preference for the role you want to play?  Clerics are versatile after all, so chances are a role you want can be covered.


Because of the clause in the cleric description about not being to to be True Neutral unless your deity is, you'll probably be Evil unless your DM waives that rule.

The "one step-away" rule applies but i prefer being evil. no other players will be participating , i have no idea about  the NPCs . And as for the role primary caster  focusing mostly on enemy elimintaion and not TOO much team buffing and all

[awaken_D_M_golem]

It might be easier to be a Cleric Archer early on.
If you have to frontline, drop the bow, clout with Mace.

[Jackinthegreen]

A mace?  Nah, smash some heads in with the morningstar so that you can ignore DR every now and then.  As bludgeoning and piercing, it does all of both so you won't have to worry much about damage type-based DR.

I haven't found any more domains for Mask besides darkness, evil, luck, and trickery, so definitely go with luck and trickery because darkness and evil are blah.

You can safely dump Dex to 10 or 12 if going the archery route due to the Zen Archery feat.  To begin to get anything decent out of crossbows you'd need to take the Rapid Reload feat too.  I'd advise against going heavy into ranged weapons since they take a lot of feats to get into, and it'll keep you from doing more caster-like stuff.

You might be able to get some use out of the Eldritch Disciple (Complete Mage 53) prestige class.  It progresses both cleric and warlock abilities and only requires one level in warlock, so you only lose one level of casting but can gain some fun stuff like at-will flight and invisibility thanks to Warlock invocations.  Come to think of it, you could probably use Zen Archery with Eldritch Blast since it is a ranged attack roll after all.

If you went with Eldritch Disciple, your stats might look something like 14 Str, 12 Dex, 16 Con, 11 Int, 18 Wis, 14 Cha.  If this appeals to you then I can give some more recommendations on feats, skills, and invocations.

[Weaveshear2012]

You might be able to get some use out of the Eldritch Disciple (Complete Mage 53) prestige class.  It progresses both cleric and warlock abilities and only requires one level in warlock, so you only lose one level of casting but can gain some fun stuff like at-will flight and invisibility thanks to Warlock invocations.  Come to think of it, you could probably use Zen Archery with Eldritch Blast since it is a ranged attack roll after all

While the requirments are easy to fulfill , i am not too fond of losing two levels of casting(one warlock and the forst in EF) especially when i want my character to make most out of his spells.

As for the NPCs  my DM told me that he would present me a few builds from an overall field soo that i could choose . BUT they are going to be definately stronger than those of the DMG and yet not close to a PC.  I don't know how many i am to choose but i will for sure take the brute whatever class he is to be used as my personal meat-shield  .

[Jackinthegreen]

The lost two levels come with some excellent benefits.  24/7 flight without spending any cash or casting spells for example.  That alone is probably worth a single lost level, and since there are several more invocations to gain 24/7 abilities or debilitate your enemies, it can be thought of as a decent investment.  Take a look at the warlock invocations and see for yourself.

If you're set on being a pure caster though, it doesn't look like you have many PrC options.  That's not always a bad thing, but clerics only gain their spells and better rebuke/turn undead at levels past 1.

Alienist (CAr 21) might work and is full progression, but focusing on (very, very strange) summons might not be your thing.  If you're going for blaster, the Elemental Savant (CAr 32) taken to 5th level loses no progression but does gain some minor things for spellcasting.

If you want blasting, this thread might give you some insight.