Author Topic: TWF Question  (Read 3150 times)

Offline muktidata

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TWF Question
« on: February 16, 2013, 03:37:56 AM »
If you're TWF'ing with a Heavy Spiked Shield with two hands and your Armor Spikes as your off-hand attack, do you get the 1.5 STR on your Shield Spike Attacks for wielding it two-handed?
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Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: TWF Question
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2013, 07:25:20 PM »
Yes.  The same is true if you're using any two-handed weapon as the "main hand" and your armor spikes as the "off hand."  Full strength bonus to the primary and .5x to secondary unless you have an ability that changes it (such as a Revenant Blade who gets 1.5x strength on both main and off hand attacks when using a double scimitar).

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: TWF Question
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2013, 08:52:49 AM »
That would be my read as well, fwiw. 

Offline NunoM

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Re: TWF Question
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2013, 08:14:28 PM »
I did some re-reading of the rules, and they appear to really suck regarding shield bashes, i'm afraid...

First of all, the rules specifically say the shields can only bash as off-hand weapons, and only count as martial weapons if used this way. Personally, i would vote for a house-rule to counter this, but that's just me...

Quote from: PHB p.125
Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a light shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. See Table 7–5: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a light shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. [...]
(emphasis mine - from the description of light shields)

Secondly, i don't see how a shield can be "wielded" with two hands... It has to be equipped on an arm and used with a swing of that arm. If you tell me you're picking the shield up with both hands and pouncing the enemy on the head with it, i could probably accept it, but that isn't exactly a shield bash as written in the rules, and i don't think shield proficiency even applies here... It's more like an improvised weapon. If so, yes, you can have your 1.5 multiplier for using it two-handed.

This being said, regarding the situation you mentioned, according to the rules, you can only use your armor spikes as the main weapon, because they are considered martial weapons on their own right, and the shield will always be relegated to the off-hand.

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: TWF Question
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2013, 08:48:06 PM »
From the FAQ:

Quote
Can a character make a shield bash attack using the
shield as a primary weapon or can it be used only as an offhand
weapon?


While the rules describe a shield bash as an off-hand
weapon, that’s simply an assumption (that your primary hand is
holding a weapon). There’s nothing stopping you from
declaring your shield bash as your primary weapon.
Of course,
that means that any attack you make with your other hand
becomes a secondary weapon.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: TWF Question
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2013, 08:54:48 PM »
You can also explicitly shield bash with a heavy shield, and it is a one-handed (not light) weapon. While it also describes using it as an "off-hand" attack, presumably this is because again the authors couldn't conceive of using it as your primary attack, and so built their assumptions right into the description...  :rolleyes
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Offline NunoM

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Re: TWF Question
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2013, 12:18:52 AM »
@jackinthegreen: Ah! Nice to know there's a source on that, thanks! :)

Well... if we went strictly by RAW, it also says that ...
Quote
[...]
A one-handed weapon is bigger than a light weapon and has sufficient length and heft to allow you to use both hands to wield it and possibly deal some extra damage with a successful hit
[...]
(from here)

According to this, I guess it's possible to use a heavy shield two-handed, because it's considered a one-handed weapon... but i still maintain the shield is equipped (i.e. attached to the body) and not wielded, so I'm not sure if i'd allow that, if i was DMing it.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 12:23:40 AM by NunoM »

Offline weenog

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Re: TWF Question
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2013, 05:11:47 AM »
@jackinthegreen: Ah! Nice to know there's a source on that, thanks! :)

Well... if we went strictly by RAW, it also says that ...
Quote
[...]
A one-handed weapon is bigger than a light weapon and has sufficient length and heft to allow you to use both hands to wield it and possibly deal some extra damage with a successful hit
[...]
(from here)

According to this, I guess it's possible to use a heavy shield two-handed, because it's considered a one-handed weapon... but i still maintain the shield is equipped (i.e. attached to the body) and not wielded, so I'm not sure if i'd allow that, if i was DMing it.

So?  It's not as if you can't stabilize one arm with the other to get away with leaning more body weight or hip torque into an elbow or forearm strike.
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Offline NunoM

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Re: TWF Question
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2013, 01:19:11 PM »
I'm not trying to make my point.
It's already established that, by pure RAW, yes, two-handed handling of a heavy shield for bashing is possible. Heck, you can even use Power attack with it, if you wish.

I'm simply viewing from a "realistic" POV (and that always causes problems in a fantasy setting, i know... :tongue). My reasoning is, when you use a shield strapped to your arm as a weapon, you can't exactly apply the amount of swing similar to wielding a two-handed sword or a longsword with two hands. Most of the strength of a two-handed impact is given by that extra swing.
Using a second arm to aid a shield bash, just seems weird to me... much like trying to deliver a two-handed unarmed strike by interlocking the fingers in a single punch... Yes, it's do-able, but weird...

Again (and back to the OP question), by RAW, it's perfectly acceptable to: use a heavy shield two-handed, apply x1.5 to the damage and use the armor spikes.
On a side note: i don't think using a two-handed weapon is considered using an off-hand weapon (which would prevent the use of the armor spikes). Therefore, you could, for example, strike with a guisarme (two-handed, reach weapon) at 10ft., and then use the armor spikes at 5ft. as a secondary weapon, in the same full-attack action.

(EDIT: added some text)
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 01:21:50 PM by NunoM »

Offline Captnq

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Re: TWF Question
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2013, 12:56:11 AM »
If you're TWF'ing with a Heavy Spiked Shield with two hands and your Armor Spikes as your off-hand attack, do you get the 1.5 STR on your Shield Spike Attacks for wielding it two-handed?

Well, first of all, just to expand a bit, you could only attempt to do this with a heavy shield, heavy spiked shield, or heavy razored shield. In order to make a light shield that you could use with two hands, you would have to increase the size of the weapon, incuring a -2 penalty, but then it would become a one-handed weapon, and thus eligible for a two hand attack. Ironically, this would not improve the AC shield bonus. Weird, but true.

Now the SRD states:
Quote
Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. See Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a shield as a one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next action (usually until the next round). An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

Clearly the shield must be the off hand weapon. Which means, even if you want to make it your primary attack, it's an off-hand attack, subject to off hand penalties, even if you don't make a primary attack.

Kinda sucks, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

Can you make a two handed attack with it? Well, at first glance, one might say yes, but we run into the problem that it cannot be used alone. You MUST have a primary attack to go along with your shield.

Now, in your question, you are using armor spikes. I'm afraid the armor spikes must be your primary attack. Can you make your armored spikes your primary? Yes. While it does not say you can under armored spikes, it does say that razored armor is just like spiked armor, and it states specifically that you can use razored armor as a primary, vis a vi, spiked armor can be the primary.

So, you have two hands free to wield your heavy spiked shield. Your shield is a martial, one-handed melee weapon. Any one-handed weapon can be wielded with two hands to do x1.5 damage on str bonus and power attack. So yes, you can do it.

But remember, it's the off hand, which means that if you are making a full attack, the armored spikes can be used multiple times (if you have a high enough BAB), but the shield can only be used as many times in a round as your two-handed weapon fighting feats allow.

In fact, technically, if I was unarmed and had only my shield, by RAW, unless I buy improved two-weapon fighting style, I can only make one attack with my shield per round, even if my BAB is 20.

How to get around that? Simple. Remove the shield from your arm and treat it as an improvised weapon. The DM will undoubtedly have the improvised weapon do just as much damage as it normally does, and it will cause you to take a -4 to hit, but you are free to make as many primary attacks as you wish (and BAB allows.)

I'm going to have to add this one to the weapon handbook.



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« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 12:58:15 AM by Captnq »
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Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: TWF Question
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2013, 01:03:45 AM »
I recommend not adding it to the handbook, unless you add the FAQ entry too.  Not being able to use a shield as a primary weapon is as much bad rules and bullshit as a monk not getting proficiency with his unarmed strikes.

Offline Captnq

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Re: TWF Question
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2013, 11:13:34 AM »
I recommend not adding it to the handbook, unless you add the FAQ entry too.  Not being able to use a shield as a primary weapon is as much bad rules and bullshit as a monk not getting proficiency with his unarmed strikes.

All editor comments are labeled as such and I always add the disclaimer that Editor comments must be taken with a grain of salt.

That said, while you may have a valid RAI point, I cannot see any flaws in my RAW analysis. Oh, I agree. RAI, that is silly as hell and I agree with the assessment that the line in question, "Off hand attack" was put in there by someone who had his own prejudices about shield bashing.

However, I do believe that RAI being able to use a shield two handed while it is strapped to your arm is stupid as shit. If I have a heavy shield strapped to my arm, I can't think of any way to use my other hand to properly add more leverage to the act of bashing with that shield and doing extra damage.

Game mechanics has nothing to do with real world physics.

But, being unable to use that shield more then once a round with a -10 penalty to hit (or -4 if you have TWF feat), that sounds like a suitable penalty for trying to do something that physically makes no sense to me at all. I've had an actual shield strapped to my arm. A modern one made of modern materials. It was heavy as hell. I don't want to even think about trying to swing a steel one. Not with a 5 foot reach, at anyrate.

As part of a bull rush, sure. I can see that. Putting both hands behind the shield and rushing at someone. But swinging it with both hands? No. I cannot see how that adds damage. In fact, trying to swing with both hands would more then likely screw up any sort of momentum you'd get going. But, rules are rules. It's up to a DM to go, "That makes no sense." It's not my place to tell someone how to run a game, only to recommend and place the best arguments for both sides of an issue at their disposal.
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