Discussion: Paladin build compendion (v2.0)

[Waazraath]

For discussion about the build compendium that is here: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8971.msg143560#msg143560

I'll prolly need some time before the formatting is done nicely.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

a Very chaste fem Paladin pic , from ---> http://www.linesandcolors.com/images/2007-05/altmann_450.jpg

[Larkas]

TERRIFIC! Thank you very much for the port, Waazraath!!!

[Pteryx]

It occurred to me relatively recently that while Hospitaler sucks as a paladin PrC, it's not all that bad for making a certain flavor of faux-paladin out of some other divine casting classes, particularly if Prestige Paladin is unavailable.  I see two basic flavors of this: a Champion-variant cleric that prestiges into Hospitaler to be a full-blown faux-paladin (maybe because of being neutral good), or a ranger (perhaps mystic ranger?) that shoots for a sort of "warrior of life" feel.  The latter would be pretty distinct in flavor from, say, a Devoted Tracker rangerdin, to the point that I could see both in the same party.  -- Pteryx

[Larkas]

It occurred to me relatively recently that while Hospitaler sucks as a paladin PrC, it's not all that bad for making a certain flavor of faux-paladin out of some other divine casting classes, particularly if Prestige Paladin is unavailable.  I see two basic flavors of this: a Champion-variant cleric that prestiges into Hospitaler to be a full-blown faux-paladin (maybe because of being neutral good), or a ranger (perhaps mystic ranger?) that shoots for a sort of "warrior of life" feel.  The latter would be pretty distinct in flavor from, say, a Devoted Tracker rangerdin, to the point that I could see both in the same party.  -- Pteryx

It's a pity when you think about it. Hospitaler was such a nice class back in 3.0... Anyways, might work to some extent with Druid too, though two out of three class features would not be advanced by it. Maybe Spirit Shaman? Anyways, Favored Soul would work too, and Healer would be a weird though very nice fit!

EDIT: Hmmmm, I really think that a Healer Hospitaler might be VERY interesting! Let's see here... Tentative base build:

The Bogus Paladin of Heironeous

LG (Female) Half-human Elf

Healer 8/ Ordained Champion 1/ Dragonslayer 1/ OC +2/ Hospitaler 8

It has +16 BAB, and 9th level prepared divine spellcasting, but it's... Not particularly optimized. I was trying to get the Paladin flavor, and trying to avoid using Prestige Paladin. You get plenty of goodies from all the classes (and can even get the Celestial Unicorn mount!), and are able to fit full BAB and the proficiencies to use it on a Healer chassis, so that's pretty good! It certainly is better than the base class. The comparison shouldn't be so good with optimized Paladin builds, however. If you are not against using Prestige Paladin, things get much better, what with all the Paladin spells and the possibility to use Battle Blessing with them. You could get Prestige Paladin 3 in place of Ordained Champion (not so good) or Prestige Paladin 1 in place of a level in Hospitaler (much better). Too bad there are so many lost caster levels. Prestige Paladin 3/ Ordained Champion 5/ Dragonslayer 1 would be very good, but we don't have the necessary Full BAB/Full Casting PrC to fill in the remaining 3 levels (Sacred Fist can't fit without sucking). Also, be sure to use a revised spell selection for the Healer, like this one.

Take a look at the build, and critique it. I'm sure we can reach something better. Bottomline, Hospitaler can be useful, but turning a Healer into a Paladin-like character might be easier by using something like Healer 8/ Prestige Paladin 1/ Ordained Champion 5/ Knight of the Raven 6. =/

[Empirate]

Here's a Paladin build going into Suel Arcanamach I did a while ago:

Race: Human
AL: LG

1st: Paladin 1 (Skilled City-Dweller Alternate Class Feature) / Iron Will, Power Attack (Human)
2nd: Paladin 2
3rd: Paladin 3 / Combat Casting
4th: Paladin 4
5th: Paladin 5 (Mystic Fire Knight Substitution Level; Charging Smite Alternate Class Feature)
6th: Paladin 6 (Mystic Fire Knight Substitution Level) / Knowledge Devotion
7th: Suel Arcanamach 1
8th: Suel Arcanamach 2
9th: Suel Arcanamach 3 / Arcane Strike
10th: Suel Arcanamach 4
11th: Abjurant Champion 1
12th: Abjurant Champion 2 / Divine Might
13th: Abjurant Champion 3
14th: Abjurant Champion 4
15th: Abjurant Champion 5 / Sacred Vitality
16th: Spellsword 1
17th: Dragon Disciple 1
18th: Dragon Disciple 2 / Animal Devotion
19th: Dragon Disciple 3
20th: Dragon Disciple 4

Ends up with BAB +18; base saves +13, +8, +16; 5th level Suel spells (probably 6/day); Greater Dispelling Strike 2/day; all the AC goodies; the ability to wear Mithral Twilight Full Plate without ASF; lots of turning attempts to fuel your divine and devotion feats; and lots of Cha synergy.

Abilities: Cha>Str>Con>Int>Wis>Dex.
Cha should be maxed for obvious reasons: saves, smiting, Suel spellcasting, turning attempts. I'm a melee guy, so Str and Con are important. I don't need much Int, but a few extra skillpoints are always welcome. Wis should be at least 11, though, to take advantage of a single Paladin 1 spell. At 12, I'd get another one, and a bonus to my Will saves. This is not required, though. Dex I'll dump entirely.

Reasoning:
Mystic Fire Knight sub levels give Spellcraft as a class skill, so it should be easy to fulfill Suel entry reqs (with some cross-class ranks in jump, admittedly).
I want Divine Feats, so I skip the first MFK sub level - I won't have many Paladin spells, anyway, just enough for Bless Weapon or Rhino’s Rush.
Since I replace Ride with Tumble as a class skill (as per the Cityscape Web Enhancement), I have no use for my Special Mount, and replace it with Charging Smite.
I don't need Practiced Spellcaster with AC 5.
Dragon Disciple comes in just when the Suel spell progression is finished, so I can take advantage of 3 bonus 5th level spells, plus very nice stat bonuses indeed. Finishing touches, so to speak.


Surreal had a better idea leading to hilariously high caster level, using all MFK sub levels. This is the short version of it:

Mystic Fire Knight Paladin 6/Suel 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 4/Something 1

Where Sacred Exorcist and Something all go into paladin casting. The jist of it is that Abjurant Champion sets your Suel CL = BAB, which should be about 18. This then stacks onto your paladin casting, which puts it at around 28 (and you have 3rd level paladin spells). Battle Blessing is a given, of course...

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Paladin probably gets more mileage out of the Divine Agent
PrC in Manual Of The Planes, than any other class.

Or go Mount + Leadership = early Epic mount goodies.
Or a medium sized hack of the Miracle At Level 6 set-up.

I figure any two of those make the most juice for a Pally.
Doesn't help out the early levels at all.

[Waazraath]

@awaken_D_M_golem: feel free to add a divine agent paladin! Thnx by the way for the pic, as you prolly saw I used it.

@ Empirate: and others who might want to contribute builds: as far as I'm concerned, everybody who has a paladin build can just add it to the compendium itself, not to the discussion thread.

[Waazraath]

Added the builds suggested by Empirate, and a few others.

Can anybody tell me how to make a decent hyperlink, instead of copy/pasting the link itself?

[Arz]

Code: [Select]

[url=link]What I want others to see here[/url]
Human Paladin 6/ Dragonmark Heir 4/ Vadalis Beastkeeper 10

Paladin 1     Least Dragonmark, Favored in House
Paladin 2
Paladin 3     Mounted Combat
Paladin 4
Paladin 5
Planar Paladin 6     Power Attack
Dragonmark Heir 1      Lesser Dragonmark
Dragonmark Heir 2
Vadalis Beastkeeper 1    Dragonmark Smite
Vadalis Beastkeeper 2
Vadalis Beastkeeper 3    Ride by Attack
Vadalis Beastkeeper 4    Feral Mark
Vadalis Beastkeeper 5
Vadalis Beastkeeper 6    Spirited Charge
Vadalis Beastkeeper 7    Awesome Smite
Vadalis Beastkeeper 8
Vadalis Beastkeeper 9    Trample
Vadalis Beastkeeper 10   Cavalry Charger
Dragonmark Heir 3
Dragonmark Heir 4      Greater Dragonmark

High base Saves
2 free templates for mount
Full mount progression
Full smite damage
4th lvl spells
High DC charm/compulsions vs poor save

Favorite mount @ECL 13: Unicorn (Celestial magebred dire horrid rhinoceros)

[phaedrusxy]

Great thread! Makes me want to try some of these. I especially liked the Wee Jas themed one. (I love binders )

[Waazraath]

@Arz thnx for the tip on the formatting! I made use of it and added your build.
@phaedrusxy thnx  let me know if you every play one, if you want, am curious how it works out. I haven't played all of them, obviously, including this one (unfortunately).
@awaken_D_M_golem: could you explain this one to me:
Or go Mount + Leadership = early Epic mount goodies.
Or a medium sized hack of the Miracle At Level 6 set-up.
I know it's from your post months ago, but I missed it back then.
@empirate: looking at your build, I see your comment on no need for practiced caster because of abjurant champion 5. Great, I forgot that making my paladin of the weave, that frees a feat in that build!

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Mount + Leadership = I think it's still kinda unsettled.

The DMG says it gets an LA+2.  OK then ,
if the Pally bonus hd count before the LA
you can't actually have that 0 hit dice horse.
Except the rules specifically say you can.

The other way is Pally horse gets boosted by Cohort
so long as the LA+2 can fit under Leadership limits,
and then after the Pally bonus hd kick in.

The other other way, is ditch the mount part and just
go Leadership ; the Pally bonuses are lost/unused.

(like I said, it hasn't been argued/settled yet)
With the bonus hd the mount gets over the 20hd
epic feats prereq a little early. 
It's unexplored mini-cheese ... but not 9th level spells 

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Here was the last round-up on Heighten cheese
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4407.10

I'm not sure how much or how fast any of that
can be accessed by a Paladin.

[SorO_Lost]

SorO's Paladin Replacement
The True Heironeous

Cloistered Cleric 5 / Ordained Champion 3 / Fist of Raziel 1 / Contemplative 1 / Fist of Raziel +9 / Anything 1 (suggest crusader for 5th level maneuvers).
Domains: War, Knowledge & Undeath.
Free: Weapon Focus (war domain)
Free: Extra Turning (undeath domain)
1: Servant of the Heavens
3: Knowledge Devotion
6: Holy Warrior
Free: Give up the knowledge domain's power (worthless at this point) for Power Attack
Free: Extend Spell (planning domain)
9: Persistent Spell
10: Bonus Domain! Maybe choose Cold if you can and Rebuke a Deathless Red Dragon for a mount or something...
12: Divine Metamagic(persistent spell)
15: Blade of Force
18: Mother Cryst

Rearrange as desired (flaws are helpful), requires worshiping Athena for the domains and reflavoring of OC's worship requirements. I also suggest Rapid Spontaneous casting Divine Power for full BAB as a Swift Action as needed, instead focus your Persistence on things like Greater Visage of the Deity and Necromantic Empowerment. Both of those will consume 14 usages, which means you'll need some items to cover even those two. Nightstick (+4) & Reliquary Holy Symbol (+3) are pretty helpful but there are more. Shroudcrown is the best since it gives you another 3+ChaMod per day, woot.

Highlights & Smiting the Wicked (real smite names may very)
Greater Smite Evil: 5/day (like a 20th lvl paladin!), but also auto confirms crits, hits 5 other targets for 2d6, and further bonuses against evil undead/outsiders (for).
Flame-Smite: Rapid Spontaneously cast Flame Strike as a Swift Action to burn those sins away (oc).
Force-Smite: Force based Reserve feat, as a Swift Action the next attack deals +X and ignores incorporeal miss chance (blade of force).
Holy-Smite: All weapons, including improvising your large holy symbol, gain Holy. Helps bypass Devil/Demon DR, oh and +2d6 damage (for).
Knowledge-Smite: +X attack/damage where X is based on your knowledge check divided by 5 on the creature (knowledge devotion).
Reserve-Smite: +X damage on all attacks where X equals your highest force spell prepped (holy warrior).
Spell-Smite: Either I'm talking about your 9th level spells or Channeling Antimagic Field or Geas into your melee attack. You decide (hint: it's both) (oc).
Turn-Smite: spend a Turn usage to Smite Evil. You should probably avoid dumping Charisma, just saying... (oc)
Yes, in case you haven't caught on it has 9th level spells, Persistence cheese and you also get Magic Circle against Evil; because normal Paladins keep people from running away in fear, but Great Paladins keep you from being Dominated and attacking teammates.

Don't forget to look up Class Boosters in the Cleric, Paladin, and Sorcerer (for cha) sections.

[Waazraath]

Added SorO's paladin replacement.

@awaken_D_M_golem - ah, I see what you mean with the mount remark. I think I used the liberal interpretation of that in my dragonrider build (2nd build in the last post), but I never considered the HD of the mount could open up epic feats (never played epic). Interesting. As you mentioned earlier, Divine Agent might be interesting for paladin, especially the gate as SLA. Unfortunately, one of their major class features ('godly gift') is essentially a big 'it's up to the DM'. That makes it hard to make a build, because those abilities really need to be good to keep the character viable with only moderate BAB, 1/2 casting and little other interesting class features up to class level 10.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Oops I suppose my subconscious read that first line of Godly Gift.
hmm ... well a Paladin should only have the 1 Domain, so that would
lower the options to the 1, 2 and 3 spell.  Throw in a PHB2 Retrain
and you might get the spell you want that level or the next.  Then
repeat the strategy for the 4, 5 and 6 ; and again for the 7, 8 and 9.
Heck you probably want to make an item anyway, and definitely go
with the retrains.  It is a little concerning the "usually" in that line.

Ahh Paladins have to work around some DM Fiat anyway, right (wink)?

[phaedrusxy]

I've been working on a build. It only uses a couple of levels of paladin, so I don't know if it belongs here, really, but thought I'd post a link. It's kind of like the Green Lady build combined with paladin of the mind, with the Mage Slayer tree + Supernatural Opportunist feats thrown in.

I'm still trying to find a good 1st level sorc/wiz spell to use with the Green Lady, preferably something with a swift action casting time that delivers some kind of debilitating condition (or maybe boosts damage).

I'm thinking of using a lance, and getting a flying mount, to deal triple damage (diving charge ability from dragonborn) on charges (max power attack, touch attacks, other damage boosters) to make the most out of a non-pouncing charge build. (Some DMs might balk at that, since the dragonborn is using the mount's flight, not his own).

I'm also considering if swapping out the last two levels of KotSS for 2 levels of psiwarrior for feats might be worth it.

[Waazraath]

I've been working on a build. It only uses a couple of levels of paladin, so I don't know if it belongs here, really, but thought I'd post a link. It's kind of like the Green Lady build combined with paladin of the mind, with the Mage Slayer tree + Supernatural Opportunist feats thrown in.

I'm still trying to find a good 1st level sorc/wiz spell to use with the Green Lady, preferably something with a swift action casting time that delivers some kind of debilitating condition (or maybe boosts damage).

I'm thinking of using a lance, and getting a flying mount, to deal triple damage (diving charge ability from dragonborn) on charges (max power attack, touch attacks, other damage boosters) to make the most out of a non-pouncing charge build. (Some DMs might balk at that, since the dragonborn is using the mount's flight, not his own).

I'm also considering if swapping out the last two levels of KotSS for 2 levels of psiwarrior for feats might be worth it.

Cool idea, paladin-link enough (with KotSS) to include it, I'll add it next time I'll update the compendium. Just curious, why the warmind? It's a good class, but I doubt the abilities and few powers it gets are as good as the extra binding - the difference between 9 levels of soulbinding and 14 levels is the binding of an additional vestige and access to two higher level vestiges... quite powerful.

As for the spell to use with the green lady, it doesn't augment damage but nerveskitter is always nice I guess (though it doesn't do extra damage or hampers the target).

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Dexadin of Snow Bunnies pic , with a touch of Supermount (and tinker gnome).

It's huge so I'll spoiler it.
from here ---> http://pre07.deviantart.net/9deb/th/pre/i/2013/166/3/2/sci_fi_hunter_with_pet_polar_bear_by_marcsteinmann-d6951k8.jpg

(click to show/hide)