Monk without monk (Core build)

[zioth]

Improved Unarmed Strike says nothing about giving proficiency in it.
Fluff text is irrelevant.
That Unarmed Strike does not appear in the Weapon Proficiency section is irrelevant, because it's just a stupid failure on WoTC's part and no sane DM will follow RAW to this extent. Monks Unarmed Strike class feature is irrelevant, because it also says nothing about giving proficiency in it.

Wait... you're saying that most DMs would impose a -4 penalty to monks using unarmed strike, because of lack of proficiency? I can't imagine any DM doing that. Unarmed Strike isn't listed as a proficiency because every character is proficient with it.

Or has this just devolved into random trolling? (or maybe it started that way)

[Solo]

I would like to get this thread back on its tracks.

So, what does +20 AB get you at level 20?

[ImperatorK]

No dude, I said that it is RAW, but it would be absurd to impose that penalty because it's stupid.
And no, not every character is proficient with it. If a creature starts with class levels he uses class proficiencies.

Nice that you're calling Prime, a Moderator, a troll.

[Seerow]

No dude, I said that it is RAW, but it would be absurd to impose that penalty because it's stupid.
And no, not every character is proficient with it. If a creature starts with class levels he uses class proficiencies.

Nice that you're calling Prime, a Moderator, a troll.

Mods can't troll?

[ImperatorK]

Mods don't troll. They entertain.

[Halinn]

@carnivore:
the attack bonus of +20 for the monk contains +1 weapon focus, +1 haste, +1 enhancement from amulet+1 and +2 from a +4 STR enhancer. BAB is 15.

+20 total attack bonus at level 20?

To be fair, that's 20+Str (total strength not including the +4 from belt)

[Basket Burner]

I would like to get this thread back on its tracks.

So, what does +20 AB get you at level 20?

Public ridicule, elitist commentary, and ignored?

I can think of the pets of level 6 characters that run close to +20 to hit. Not even a class feature or anything, just a random attack animal.

[SorO_Lost]

Monks aren't proficient in either gauntlets OR unarmed strikes.

To nitpick a nitpick.

The Monk's Unarmed Strike counts as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for all purposes for enhancing it by feats, spells, items, special abilities, class features and so one.  As the Chaos Shuffle will gladly detail, Weapon Proficiency is a feat. One can claim all creatures have Natural Weapon Proficiency(my natural weapons) since they are all in fact proficient with any Natural Weapon no matter how the attack was obtained such as grafts to spells. Since your Unarmed Attack benefits from anything that can apply to your natural weapons, the said feat must then apply to your Unarmed Attacks as they state it must.

[kalaskaagathas]

Monks aren't proficient in either gauntlets OR unarmed strikes.

To nitpick a nitpick.

The Monk's Unarmed Strike counts as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for all purposes for enhancing it by feats, spells, items, special abilities, class features and so one.  As the Chaos Shuffle will gladly detail, Weapon Proficiency is a feat. One can claim all creatures have Natural Weapon Proficiency(my natural weapons) since they are all in fact proficient with any Natural Weapon no matter how the attack was obtained such as grafts to spells. Since your Unarmed Attack benefits from anything that can apply to your natural weapons, the said feat must then apply to your Unarmed Attacks as they state it must.

Nitpickception.

Can all creatures be said to have "Natural Weapon Proficiency(My Natural Weapons)" as a feat?  I don't think so, as Natural Weapons are included under Special Abilities.  Further, a Monk's Unarmed Strike counts as a manufactured weapon or a natural weapon for the purpose of spells or effects that enhance either manufactured weapons or natural weapons, but not feats, so even if all creatures received "Natural Weapon Proficiency(My Natural Weapons)" as a feat, an Unarmed Strike is a simple weapon, not a natural weapon.  Unless your Monk has RHD which grant simple weapon proficiency in addition to their class levels, they are not proficient with simple weapons.

So, I don't think that claim holds up.

[SorO_Lost]

Nitpickception.

We could probably get a bunch of those. Natural Weapons rules, indeed Unarmed Strike rules are so poorly written it's not even funny.

Can all creatures be said to have "Natural Weapon Proficiency(My Natural Weapons)" as a feat?  I don't think so, as Natural Weapons are included under Special Abilities.

And many Exotic Weapon Proficiencies from from Racial abilities, some from from classes. You can look up the exact argument your self I really don't know enough details to follow up too well other than as a mass people decided it worked, was TO, and broken as hell.

Further, a Monk's Unarmed Strike counts as a manufactured weapon or a natural weapon for the purpose of spells or effects that enhance either manufactured weapons or natural weapons, but not feats,

Recall the arguments there though. An Unarmed Strike isn't a Natural Weapon, so Improved Natural Weapon cannot be taken. Yes says one guy citing the Monk's rules, no says another citing one of the Rules Of The Game articles, yes is returned using the same article (recently GttP just brushed on this) and P.S. the FAQ says so too. Against loses and we all move on.

Does Weapon Proficiency apply? Well it didn't improve the weapon per see but it did improve attack rolls.
To? For? Depends on who you talk to.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

 

I'm confused.

My kitty avatar is confused too (or is it two) ?

[Basket Burner]

I'm confused.

My kitty avatar is confused too (or is it two) ?

01-10    Attack caster with melee or ranged weapons (or close with caster if attack is not possible).
11-20    Act normally.
21-50    Do nothing but babble incoherently.
51-70    Flee away from caster at top possible speed.
71-100    Attack nearest creature (for this purpose, a familiar counts as part of the subject’s self).

1d100+0
88+0 = 88

I'll be waiting over here then.

[SorO_Lost]

lol.

@awaken_D_M_golem, we kind of had a minor tangent on Monk's being proficient with unarmed strikes or not. WotC's retardation and all. It's just me and what's his name were doing it a bit better than some of the other guys, hell I even skipped quoting them and used Ly's post as my entry.

Before that, I think someone said something about a +20 attack bonus at level 20 was what the Sorcerer used for his Touch Rays, not the Monk.

[wilconran13]

Monk's are my favorite class of all time (and I think the most powerful) They only remain good for the first 6/7 levels, but there's prestige classes to cover that. One of my favorites:
Race:Changling, Alignment: any.
Monk (Passive Way) 2/psychic warrior 2/swordsage 1/initiate of draconic mysteries 4/SS+1/shadow sun ninja 1/fist of the forest 3/warshaper 2/IoDM+4
1: Combat Expertise (bonus), Power Attack,2: Improved Trip (bonus),3: Alertness, Iron Will (bonus)
4: Great Fortitude (bonus),6: Tashalatora,9: Superior Unarmed Strike,12: Practiced Manifester

Skills:
1: hide 4, concentration 4, know (relig) 4, know (arcana) 4, jump 0, tumble 4
2: hide 5, concentration 5, know (relig) 4, know (arcana) 5, jump 2, tumble 4
3: hide 5, concentration 6, know (relig) 4, know (arcana) 5, jump 4, tumble 4
4: hide 5, concentration 6, know (relig) 4, know (arcana) 6, jump 5, tumble 4
5: hide 8, concentration 6, know (relig) 4, know (arcana) 6, jump 8, tumble 4 (with one left over)
Open after this.

Items: Monk’s Belt, Monk’s Tattoo, Fanged Ring, Necklace of Natural Attacks

Full attack is 4 unarmed strikes at 36d8 (or 48d8, depending on your extrapolation of the chart) damage each, and insane trip modifiers, as well as decent reach.  Add in Inhuman Reach and one more Warshaper level for +10 foot reach.  Add in Broken Fist Masteries I and II and Knock-Down for more trippy goodness.  Tomb-Tainted Soul somewhere in the party would be great, and would make the healing go twice as fast. ( Shadow Sun Ninja lets you make 1 attack as a standard action and then heal that amount next round as a swift action)

[Tshern]

Awfully non-core for a core thread however.