Author Topic: Monk without monk (Core build) (Read 33738 times)

SorO_Lost · « **Reply #20 on:** November 14, 2011, 06:36:00 PM »

Yeahee a thread about Monk bashing and gia is here ^_^
I need some forum drama or I'll get bored you know.

kalaskaagathas · « **Reply #21 on:** November 14, 2011, 07:07:14 PM »

Quote from: ImperatorK on November 14, 2011, 04:23:39 PM

If you don't have a counter example then what are you even comparing your build to? If you want to be fair you should either assume at least basic, staple optimization on the Monks part, or not compare to non-existing builds.

The trouble with that, I think, is that basic, staple optimization for a Monk is to be a Monk 1, 2, or at most 6/PsyWar (or better yet, Ardent) Tashalatora, or a Monk 1, 2/Cloistered Cleric 8, 9 (or less, depending on PrC selection)/Sacred Fist 10. Neither of which is an option in Core (assuming Core is either the PHB, DMG, and MM1 or the SRD).

Really, as far as Core Monk optimization goes, I think the only staples would be Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike) and a Necklace of Natural Attacks.

That said, if we really want to compare these pseudo-Monk builds to an actual Monk 20, with the same restrictions, then let's set our parameters. Do we want Core only to be the PHB, DMG, and MM1 combo, or do we want access to the whole SRD? Do we want to restrict the Monk build to being a Monk 20? What is our stat generation method? Finally, how will we decide if the pseudo-Monks have adequately simulated the Monk, let alone if they have done it "better?" Will it be by number of class features reproduced and who has the better numbers with those class features, respectively? Do we want to nominate a panel of judges?

In the interest of full disclosure, I happen to think that the best pseudo-Monk 20 in Core (either definition) is a Druid 20, but that's just me...

ImperatorK · « **Reply #22 on:** November 14, 2011, 07:18:37 PM »

Quote from: kalaskaagathas on November 14, 2011, 07:07:14 PM

Quote from: ImperatorK on November 14, 2011, 04:23:39 PM
If you don't have a counter example then what are you even comparing your build to? If you want to be fair you should either assume at least basic, staple optimization on the Monks part, or not compare to non-existing builds.

The trouble with that, I think, is that basic, staple optimization for a Monk is to be a Monk 1, 2, or at most 6/PsyWar (or better yet, Ardent) Tashalatora, or a Monk 1, 2/Cloistered Cleric 8, 9 (or less, depending on PrC selection)/Sacred Fist 10. Neither of which is an option in Core (assuming Core is either the PHB, DMG, and MM1 or the SRD).

Really, as far as Core Monk optimization goes, I think the only staples would be Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike) and a Necklace of Natural Attacks.

That said, if we really want to compare these pseudo-Monk builds to an actual Monk 20, with the same restrictions, then let's set our parameters. Do we want Core only to be the PHB, DMG, and MM1 combo, or do we want access to the whole SRD? Do we want to restrict the Monk build to being a Monk 20? What is our stat generation method? Finally, how will we decide if the pseudo-Monks have adequately simulated the Monk, let alone if they have done it "better?" Will it be by number of class features reproduced and who has the better numbers with those class features, respectively? Do we want to nominate a panel of judges?

In the interest of full disclosure, I happen to think that the best pseudo-Monk 20 in Core (either definition) is a Druid 20, but that's just me...

No equipment, first and foremost. The Monk gets his abilities as class features. With enough cash you can obviously imitate lower tier classes and even be better then them. Lets not make it too easy.

Tshern · « **Reply #23 on:** November 14, 2011, 07:52:39 PM »

Quote from: snakeman830 on November 14, 2011, 05:28:27 PM

Quote from: Tshern on November 14, 2011, 05:21:06 PM
I like the core build of carnivore's (big surprise there). However, I would still like to see a pure Monk build to compare it with and I assume Sir Giacomo has a few in store.
You're kidding me, right? I haven't seen a build out of him yet that doesn't either fight the class or blatantly cheat.

I never said he has something valid or strong enough prepared.

kalaskaagathas · « **Reply #24 on:** November 14, 2011, 08:12:21 PM »

Quote from: ImperatorK on November 14, 2011, 07:18:37 PM

Quote from: kalaskaagathas on November 14, 2011, 07:07:14 PM
...Stuff about setting parameters and whatnot...
No equipment, first and foremost. The Monk gets his abilities as class features. With enough cash you can obviously imitate lower tier classes and even be better then them. Lets not make it too easy.

I can see some benefit to that, I suppose, but on the other hand the Monk also receives WBL, so theoretically that shouldn't be an advantage to one side or the other (and if it is, it should be towards the Monk, as he need not spend his WBL emulating his own class features).

Though, if we so desire, we could run more than one test - a test with equipment, a test without, and a test in an AMF should be sufficient. Or we could go whole hog and have a test with equipment, a test without, a test in an AMF with equipment, a test in an AMF without equipment, and a test beginning outside an AMF before entering into said AMF, both with equipment and then without equipment.

The question then becomes, do we build the Monk 20 and the pseudo-Monk with equipment, and then run the tests on those builds (both with equipment and without), or do we build two of each, one with equipment and one without, respectively? I suggest we simply build one of each (with access to full WBL) and then remove their equipment for the tests which call for the same.

How does that sound?

Lycanthromancer · « **Reply #25 on:** November 14, 2011, 08:28:18 PM »

If it's in an AMF, do a 5' step and you're no longer in an AMF.

Solo · « **Reply #26 on:** November 14, 2011, 08:34:45 PM »

Quote from: carnivore on November 14, 2011, 04:05:47 PM

Quote
Also, as Sir Giacomo pointed out, your combination really can't do what a monk can do. Sure, it makes up for it in other ways, but you can't call it a monk.
thats right ... what I made can actually Survive Combat and Contribute to a party in a meaningful way, many Monks find it hard to do those things

That not entirely true. It would be more accurate to say that Sir Giacomo's monks find it hard to do those things.

kalaskaagathas · « **Reply #27 on:** November 14, 2011, 08:37:16 PM »

Quote from: Lycanthromancer on November 14, 2011, 08:28:18 PM

If it's in an AMF, do a 5' step and you're no longer in an AMF.

While that's true, I suspect that certain proponents of the Monk would assert that taking a five foot step out of the AMF is not in the spirit of the test. I recognize that there are many ways of dealing with an AMF, but I suspected that the issue would come up, so I wrote it in to the potential testing regimen. I don't stand by it as a particularly valid issue (since, as you say, a five foot step and ranged effects/reach obviate the AMF) but I was certain it would come up, and sought to preempted it.

SorO_Lost · « **Reply #28 on:** November 14, 2011, 11:26:42 PM »

I'm 100% reasonably sure Gia doesn't have a Monk to showcase, and if he does it's mostly just bullet lists of his traits and the only notes on outcome are horrible.

So how about this? ~Courtesy of Solo.

(click to show/hide)

Quote from: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11458.0

Alright, so I had the recent and unique insight that the Duelist prestige class synergies with the Monk. Behold what can be done when you put these two powerful character options together, for it shall make even the mightiest wizard quake in his boots!

The thought occurred to me when I realized that the Duelist was the only other core class than the monk which received a mental stat to AC, namely Int. Obviously, if you made a character focused on Dexterity, Wisdom, and Intelligence, you could get sky-high AC and be nigh-invulnerable in combat. Thus I propose the following build for anyone who enjoys swashbuckling combat in a high-stakes environment.

Class progression: Monk6/Fighter2/Paladin2/Duelist10
Race: Human
Feats:
Monk bonus: Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip
Fighter Bonus: Dodge, Mobility
Character: Improved Initiative, Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse, Improved Natural Attack, Two Weapon Fighting, Spring Attack, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Greater Two Weapon Fighting

With this setup, you will have +18 BAB, which is only 2 less than that of an 20th level Fighter, meaning you won't have any trouble when it comes to hitting. Moreover, your defense will be outstanding. Not only is your regular AC high, but your touch AC will be phenomenal.

Assuming a total score of 26, 22, 22 in Dex, Int, and Wis respectively, AC when fighting defensively can be as high as:
8 (Dex)+ 6 (Int) + 6 (Wis) + 2 (Monk AC bonus) +1 (Haste) +5 (Bracers of Armor) + 5 (Deflection) + 1 (Ioun Stone) + 5 (Defending) +5 (Combat Expertise) +3 (fighting defensively with 5 ranks in Tumble) + 10 (Duelist class bonus when fighting defensively) = 57 (Touch 52)

Assumed equipment: Monk's Belt, Boots of Speed, Bracers of Armor, Ring of Deflection, Ioun Stone, +5 Defending Kama, various Tomes.

When you compare this to high level monsters such as a Balor or Pit Fiend, with attack bonuses of +33 and +30 respectively, we can see that they are simply unable to be hit by either of them except on a natural 20. This is an incredible asset in combat because it makes you nearly invincible.

Now, a Duelist won't be able to deal much damage, but you're not playing a Duelist to kick ass in the same way a Barbarian does, you're doing it for the roleplaying potential. Besides, there are so many other roles in battle to fill; a Duelist's main strength is mobility, so it would be a good idea to capitalize on that. Spring Attack, tumble, and Mobility allow you to run around the battlefield at top speed thanks to your unarmored status, dealing damage wherever it is needed to support the main melee combatants and providing a critical flanking bonus so that the rogue can sneak attack should he wind up in an unfavorable position. In addition, you can stun enemies with your Stunning Fist attack, whose DC will be through the roof since Wisdom is an important stat for this build. This is truly a superior supporting character for the battlefield that not even a Bard can rival.

Since your reflex saves would be through the roof, you will never fail a reflex save. Since you have evasion, that means a wizard could cast Fireball at you all day without you breaking so much as a sweat. If he chooses to cast ray spells, he'll miss horribly, since not even True Strike would enable a ray to hit. Fortitude saves will be a cinch to make due to getting a great fortitude progression from the fighter, paladin and monk, as well as Cha to saves; likewise, the monk's good will saves coupled with high wisdom and the paladin's save bonus means that will saves will be trivial to pass as well. Anything else can obviously be handled by a simple Mantle of Spell Resistance combined with a Ring of Blinking, so you aren't even there half the time!

Admittedly, a Magic Missile spell can still target you if you're on the Etheral Plane, but a simple wand of Shield can solve that problem. Due to your high Int, you will have more skill points than you know what to deal with, so having cross class ranks in UMD is entirely possible. Combined with the Charisma you have for saves, you'll easily be able to make the DC20 UMD check to activate a wand.

It's worth noting that since activating a wand has a flat DC, you could use wands of other spells to augment your fighting capability. If you find that there is not enough cash in your coffers after boosting your Dex, Int, Wis, and Cha, then a few partially charged wands may make for a good investment, like buying used cars.

This is how you make a truly fearsome magekiller! Wield carefully this power you now hold in your hand, for knowledge is a double edged, two bladed sword with spikes on the handle.

zioth · « **Reply #29 on:** November 15, 2011, 10:34:30 AM »

Quote

Slots are Irrelavant.... since you can combine magic items in a single Body Slot

...At higher cost, and assuming you have Craft Wonderous Item...

Quote

thats right ... what I made can actually Survive Combat and Contribute to a party in a meaningful way, many Monks find it hard to do those things

You didn't claim you were making a character that could survive combat. You claimed you were making a monk-equivalent. I can also make characters that survive combat -- druid20, for example.

Quote

actually a 20th lvl Character .... which is what I posted, has 760000gp... and I only spent 1/11th of his entire Wealth to make a Monk irrelavant, since this character can do all he does and even Better

Alright, you got me there. My fake build used more than 760k gp, and yours only used 80k or so.

Quote

Monk 20 : BAB +15, Unarmed Damage 2d10(11 average)
Full attack with Flurry: +15/+15/+15/+10/+5
If all Hit = Total Damage 55 points

My Fake Monk: BAB +17, Unarmed Damage 1d8+8d6SA(32 average)
Full Attack with TWF+Imp TWF+Speed: +15/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5/+0
If all hit = Total Damage 224

(You have -2 for TWF, +1 from haste and +13 BaB. Your real bonuses are +12/+12/+12/+7/+7/+2/-3. Also, you can use Alter Self to get large size for a little more unarmed damage)

Let's try that again, and give the monk the same advantages you're giving to your build:
Monk 20 : BAB +15
Using the wealth you spent on your build: +1/+1 frost, flaming, shock gauntlets, and boots of speed.
Using the 7 feats you spent on your build: Greater TWF, Improved Natural Attack, Weapon Focus, Two Weapon Rend, Water Splitting Stone (yes, these are non-optimal choices)

Unarmed Damage 4d8 +3d6 +4(assuming most things have DR at level 20) (32 average)
Full attack with Flurry+gTWF+Speed: +15/+15/+15/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5/+5/0
If all Hit = Total Damage 324 (including 4 from two weapon rend)

If you don't insist on Monk20, but allow even the incredibly sub-optimal Monk16/Fighter4, you get:

BaB: +16
Feats: Same as above, plus Weapon Specialization, Superior Unarmed Strike and two extra feats for whatever.
Unarmed Damage 4d8 +3d6 +4(assuming most things have DR at level 20) +2 (34 average)
Full attack with Flurry+gTWF+Speed: +16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+11/+11/+6/+6/+1/-2
If all Hit = Total Damage 388 (including 4 from two weapon rend)

So this very poorly built real monk does 73% more damage than your fake monk, and hits much more often (+16 on the highest attack instead of +12). Plus, while the real monk loses some damage against energy resistence, your build loses almost all of its damage against creatures immune to sneak attack. The real monk also fares much better in an antimatic field.

Obviously, your build has its advantages, but unarmed damage is not one of them.

This is fun.

edit: I went overboard with the TWF. Just removed some attacks. But at level 21 with Perfect TWF, the real monk builds go crazy!

ImperatorK · « **Reply #30 on:** November 15, 2011, 11:18:15 AM »

Wasn't it supposed to be Core only?

zioth · « **Reply #31 on:** November 15, 2011, 12:37:52 PM »

Okay. Take out Dual Weapon Rend, replace Superior Unarmed Strike with a Monk's belt and replace the Corrosive property with Flaming. Doesn't make that much difference. The rest is core.

snakeman830 · « **Reply #32 on:** November 15, 2011, 12:46:32 PM »

Well, taking out the non-core material, your damage output drops to 313 on the pure Monk assuming all attacks hit.

On the multiclass Monk, it drops to 396.5 average damage, assuming all attacks hit.

You're still ahead on both counts, but I'd still rather have the fake monk in my party due to being more useful.

zioth · « **Reply #33 on:** November 15, 2011, 01:59:40 PM »

A little less damage, actually, since I put in too many TWF attacks. Still does better damage.

Yes, the fake monk is useful to a party, due to some party buffs, but I'm not convinced it's better overall than a poorly-built real monk like the one I proposed. I suspect a well-built monk would far more powerful.

Also, at level 21, the real TWF monk becomes crazy, especially if you read the PTWF description literally - every attack, including flurry attacks - is doubled. That's 14 attacks! +17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+12/+12/+7/+7/+2/+2/-3/-3

Nachofan99 · « **Reply #34 on:** November 15, 2011, 02:21:56 PM »

I don't understand why "the other guy" always gets to be custom built, min/maxed, DM Fiat'd, break WBL and allowed to simply outperform Monk/Fighter/Whoever based on "because it's obvious."

I mean, shouldn't the Monk be using optimal tactics like carrying his entire party? Doesn't he give Evasion to everyone?

That's a wink guys.

carnivore · « **Reply #35 on:** November 15, 2011, 04:53:39 PM »

Quote from: zioth on November 15, 2011, 10:34:30 AM

Quote
Monk 20 : BAB +15, Unarmed Damage 2d10(11 average)
Full attack with Flurry: +15/+15/+15/+10/+5
If all Hit = Total Damage 55 points

My Fake Monk: BAB +17, Unarmed Damage 1d8+8d6SA(32 average)
Full Attack with TWF+Imp TWF+Speed: +15/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5/+0
If all hit = Total Damage 224

(You have -2 for TWF, +1 from haste and +13 BaB. Your real bonuses are +12/+12/+12/+7/+7/+2/-3. Also, you can use Alter Self to get large size for a little more unarmed damage)

I realize you must have been in a Great Hurry, thats why you Ignored the Fact that the Fake Monk Build has a BAB+17
to start with ... the Attack Bonuses stand as I posted them

also why dont you try again posting the actual Feats for a CORE ONLY build .... and make them Legal(you cant just pick Greater TWF without taking the Prereqs first also)

also you included an ERROR that many novices include ..... you cannot Flurry with a Gauntlet .... it is not a Special Monk Weapon, try again with a Legal Build example

I would love to see a corrected example .... and try to use Monk 20... since as you said "I suspect a well-built monk would far more powerful." ..... lets actually see

what do you say?

ImperatorK · « **Reply #36 on:** November 15, 2011, 05:10:05 PM »

Quote

also why dont you try again posting the actual Feats for a CORE ONLY build .... and make them Legal(you cant just pick Greater TWF without taking the Prereqs first also)

He has the prerequisites, just not written down. And I already pointed out that it is supposed to be Core only and he corrected it in his next post.

(BTW. Idk why, but your writing style annoys me.)

carnivore · « **Reply #37 on:** November 15, 2011, 05:16:24 PM »

Quote from: ImperatorK on November 15, 2011, 05:10:05 PM

Quote
also why dont you try again posting the actual Feats for a CORE ONLY build .... and make them Legal(you cant just pick Greater TWF without taking the Prereqs first also)
He has the prerequisites, just not written down. And I already pointed out that it is supposed to be Core only and he corrected it in his next post.

really .... all I see is this:

Quote from: zioth on November 15, 2011, 10:34:30 AM

Using the 7 feats you spent on your build: Greater TWF, Improved Natural Attack, Weapon Focus, Two Weapon Rend, Water Splitting Stone (yes, these are non-optimal choices)

just what feats does his build have? ... if he posted them we would know

ImperatorK · « **Reply #38 on:** November 15, 2011, 05:19:03 PM »

Count how much feats that is (and don't include Two Weapon Rend and Water Splitting Stone 'cause they're not Core).

carnivore · « **Reply #39 on:** November 15, 2011, 05:26:01 PM »

let me post this V...e...r...y S...l...o...w...l...y so you understand my Point, rather than have him say later that he had different feats, if he posts(himself) exactly the Feats he has chosen to prove his point there will be no confusion or argument. he is the witness... I am not going to put words in his mouth as some have done to me already, I will let him talk for himself.

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Author Topic: Monk without monk (Core build) (Read 33738 times)