Monk without monk (Core build)

[ImperatorK]

Let me say it E-V-E-N S-L-O-W-E-R so you can understand - he said "Using the 7 feats", but wrote only 5, from which GTWF has two feats as prerequisites... Think about it for a moment.

[zioth]

You sure like your large font sizes , bright colors and Capital Letters...

The reason I said your BaB was wrong was because in your first post, you claimed a BaB of 13. I hadn't noticed that you revised your build in a later post.

you cannot Flurry with a Gauntlet

From the SRD:
"Gauntlet: This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack."

A gauntlet is for unarmed strikes, and an unarmed strike is a valid monk weapon. Therefore you can flurry with a gauntlet.

So aside from some minor errors which I corrected in a later post, my thrown-together, poorly-optimized build still stands, and still does a lot more unarmed damage than the fake monk. Here's the fully corrected version, with one more correction (forgot to factor in the +1 weapon):


Monk 20
BAB +15
Using the wealth you spent on your build: +1/+1 frost, flaming, shock gauntlets, and boots of speed.
Using the 7 feats you spent on your build: TWF, iTWF, gTWF (there, now I've been explicit), Improved Natural Attack, Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, Improved Initiative
Speed: 120 with haste

Unarmed Damage 4d8 +3d6 +1(avg extra damage from improved crit) +1 (30 average)
Full attack with Flurry+gTWF+Speed: +16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+11/+11/+6/+6/1
If all Hit = Total Damage 300 - 76 more damage than the fake monk


Monk16/Fighter4:
BaB: +16
Feats: Same as above, plus Weapon Specialization, and three extra feats for whatever.
Equipment: Monk's Belt
Unarmed Damage 4d8 +3d6 +4 (31 average)
Full attack with Flurry+gTWF+Speed: +17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+12/+12/+7/+7/+2/-3
If all Hit = Total Damage 352 - More than 50% better than the fake monk



Again, these are poorly optimized monks, and they beat your optimized fake monk -- not in everything, but in damage, AC, saves (plus Improved Evasion), speed, SR, initiative, stunning fist, feats and equipment (they don't have to pay +50% cost to improve items in so many slots). They also beat your fake monk in hindering situations, such as an antimagic field, or when sneak attack is impossible (which happens quite often at level 20).

Your character gets many useless class abilities (due to low class level), plus Aura of Despair, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Hide in Plain Sight, and a fair number of low-level spells.

Finally, while the monk depends on str, dex, con and wis, your fake monk depends on all of those plus cha (if he wants to compete on saves).

Your character might be more fun to play because of the spells, but for defense and melee power, I'd take the monk.

[Halinn]

... an unarmed strike is a valid monk weapon ...

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Monks are proficient with club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling.

[carnivore]

You sure like your large font sizes , bright colors and Capital Letters...

The reason I said your BaB was wrong was because in your first post, you claimed a BaB of 13. I hadn't noticed that you revised your build in a later post.

in this Thread ..... I did not post my build originally, Prime32... posted a quote of my build, which if you looked at it you would realize that it indeed had a BAB +17, since BAB is derived from Class levels .... what I revised was adding some Colors and highlights, but not relavant material

you cannot Flurry with a Gauntlet

From the SRD:
"Gauntlet: This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack."

A gauntlet is for unarmed strikes, and an unarmed strike is a valid monk weapon. Therefore you can flurry with a gauntlet.

this may be acceptable as a houserule in your games, however... WoTC feels differently... notice:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a

Can a monk use a +5 gauntlet in an unarmed attack, gaining all of her class benefits as well as the +5 bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls from the gauntlet?

Gauntlets are indeed a weapon. If a monk uses any weapon not listed as a special monk weapon, she does not gain her better attack rate. She would, however, gain the increased damage for unarmed attacks.

try again

 

[awaken_D_M_golem]

  ... where's that old eating Popcorn smiley face ?



Best I can do is Druid 5 / Monk 1 / Druid X ... so I don't qualify.
Monk 1 / Druid 19 could be massaged a little early on ; still doesn't qualify.

[Lycanthromancer]

Monks aren't proficient in either gauntlets OR unarmed strikes.

[ImperatorK]

One feat deals with both problems.

[Sir Giacomo]

Writing a book
Dating my favourite TV moderator (EDIT only once...a shame...)
Looking a shark into its gaping maw
Meeting Sting (EDIT only once ... even more shame ...  )
Discussing core builds with carnivore

Hey, that list now is complete!

Anyway, carnivore – the thread originally is about how builds can emulate the monk in core, not whether they are better in a certain aspect. And I think your build still misses a lot of important monk class aspects.

Also, I am not even sure about the combat part...

Here’s a simple human core monk lvl 20, also with 80k gold equipment (note that you do not need a ring of feather falling, the assassin already has it as a spell).

FEATS
Weapon Focus Unarmed Strike (Human)
Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk)
Improved Grapple (Monk)
Improved Initiative (level 1)
Combat Reflexes (Monk)
Blind-Fight (Level 3)
Improved Trip (Monk)
INA (level 6)
Leadership (level 9, to equal the blackguard’s minions)
Stunning Fist (level 12)
Improved Critical – Unarmed Strike (level 15)
Power Attack (level 18, or take flyby attack in case of flying speed)

EQUIPMENT (80k max)
Ring of Freedom of movement (equals blackguard spell, 40k)
Belt +4 STR (equals blackguard bull’s strength, 16k)
Amulet of natural attacks +1 (6k)
Boots of speed (12k)
Permanent buff for large form, either enlarge (3.1k+, when polymorphing is out) or RAW PaO (when morphing spells are allowed) into large outsider (1.2k). Assumption here: an enlarge effect despite perfect self restriction (or polymorph ban would disadvantage monk too much)

ATTACK COMPARISON

(click to show/hide)

Monk
+20/+20/+20/+20/+15/+10 = total +105
Monk-without-Monk (MWM, carnivore’s build)
+18/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+3 =total +91 (note I included the blood bond from the fiendish servant)
Note:
-   I’d rather choose the boots of speed over the speed weapon, since it also gives the +1 haste attack bonus. If the MWM takes it, though, it does not change the picture much
-   The big advantage oft he monks is that the two flurry extra attacks are at the highest bonus. The TWF-MWM is hit quite hard by the iterative BAB.
-   I added the total BAB here to give an AC-independent impression oft he attacking power oft he builds. Most level 20 opponents have 35 AC and more – which again puts the monk with four vs three highest attacks at an advantage (and I am not even counting in the divine power buff that is easily obtainable at level 20 wbl)
-   Both builds may get additional bonuses, but the MWM-specific ones cost a standard action (bull’s strength, greater invisibility, and most opponents at that level can see invisible, rendering that buff less important. Both can hope to get +2 flanking bonuses from their minions. The monk has more stunning fist attempts (another potential +2), and also has the touch attacks for grapple and trip which the MWM does not have.
-   In general, the four combat bonus feats, as well as the feats the MWM needs to emulate monk abilities are an advantage of the monk that should not be underestimated here (EDIT improved initiative and blind-fight come to mind EDIT END)

RESULT ATTACK COMPARISON: Advantage monk

DAMAGE COMPARISON

(click to show/hide)

Monk
6d8 (huge lvl 20 monk equivalent) +4 (STR from size boost via enlarge, enhancment and +1 from amulet) = average 31.
MWM
1d8 + 3 (enhancement gauntlet, blood bond) +8d6 sneak = average 35.5
Note:
-   the MWM could also get an enlarge boost, but that would only raise base damage from 1d8 to 2d6. The monk’s big advantage from size stacking (even more visible in non-core) is that the class starts with the higest base damage of all classes.
-   Sneaks will not work on undead, constructs, elementals and plants, (At CR 20, this may appear not that frequent any more, but there were levels before that ) Moreover, it does not work at all vs invisible opponents, so, as I said in my previous post, it is highly situational (and this problem applies also to death attack which otherwise is clearly better than quivering palm). Also, many opponents can see invisible. Flanking could help to provide more sneaks, but vs CR 20+ foes that also may be difficult to achieve with mid-level minions.
-   Monk got reach, but MWM can apply sneaks to 30ft missile range

RESULT DAMAGE COMPARISON: A draw (somewhat more damage from MWM, but less reliably so – and if you ask me, I’d here go for the monk damage)

DEFENSE COMPARISON

(click to show/hide)

Monk
AC: +4+WIS from monk class , base saves +12 (all) and +2 vs enchantment school effects, spell resistance; combat reflex/trip combo even when flat-footed with reach, poison immunity, DR 10/magic, EDIT forgot improved evasion EDIT END
MWM
AC: +1+WIS from belt, base saves fort +11, refl +11, will +5 and overall CHR bonus to saves; +50% miss chance with a standard action (greater invisibility)
Note
-   Monk should be ahead in saves, since: CHR is going to be fairly low fort he mwm (which is massively MAD since it needs STR for melee attack and damage, DEX for the TWF tree, INT for the assassin spells, WIS fort he stunning fist and blackguard spells and CHR. MWM could use protection spell to get +2 to saves
-   Since monk can focus in STR and WIS, that class may even more ahead in AC

RESULT DEFENSE COMPARISON: Advantage monk

SKILLS COMPARISON

(click to show/hide)

Monk
23x4 + 23 human =115 skill points
MWM
8x4 + 2 + 2x10 + 8x4  + 23 human= 109 skill points
Note
-   the MWM has a much bigger class skill list (with UMD! )
-   also, likely due to assassin spell has INT maybe a bit higher
-   and trapfinding from rogue on top for MWM....

RESULT SKILL COMPARISON Advantage MWM

AND ALL THE REST....

(click to show/hide)

Well, here it essentially boils down to whether the level 1-4 assassin and blackguard spells are better than what the monk offers which I mentioned in my last post that the MWM did not emulate (and which – like spell resistance and poison immunity has not been mentioned above). That is a difficult call.
Note:
-   at level 20, most assassin/blackguard level 1-4 spell effects are not that powerful anymore. Monster summons of that level, for instance, are a joke to waste a full round on. Greater invisibility, dimension door and freedom of movement certainly are good, (they depend btw on at least 14s in WIS and INT here!) but the monk in this case can also do one dimension door/day, and has freedom of movement up all the time. Greater invisibiltiy: see also the problems by level 20 outlined above (opponents able to see/pinpoint the invisible character)
-   Meanwhile, the monk  has the equivalent of the following spells up all the time: speak with animals, feather fall – worse than the spell actually -, expeditious retreat – better than the spell actually - (level 1), speak with plants, tongues (level 3), etheralness (level 9, up to 20 rounds)
-   Still, healing is clearly better for  the MWM.

RESULT REST COMPARISON: Draw

OVERALL COMPARISON/RESULTS
Carnivore, your build is interesting. However...
... it does not really achieve „monk without a monk in core“...
... nor does it appear better to me.

What do you think?

- Giacomo

PS: Glad that you liked my rogue-without-rogue.
What about this one:
Barbarian-without-barbarian:
Bard 8/Fighter 2/Dragon disciple 10
Spam rage spells, get total higher STR bonus (also 24/7) from DD, light adamantine armour gets a bit of damage reduction, and you are a scholar instead of an illiterate!

[Tshern]

Leadership (level 9, to equal the blackguard’s minions)

What?

[ImperatorK]

Giacomo, why is your build trying to emulate carnivore's build? Isn't it supposed to be the other way around? Your Monk should be a Monk, not some fake Blackguard/Assassin.

[carnivore]

quick question .... how did you figure the Attack Bonuses? more specificly how did the Monk get +20 BAB?

also, FYI ... the Blood Bond only benefits the Fiendish Servant, not the Blackguard.

thank you for your response .... I will address the entire post tomorrow

 

[carnivore]

PS: Glad that you liked my rogue-without-rogue.
What about this one:
Barbarian-without-barbarian:
Bard 8/Fighter 2/Dragon disciple 10
Spam rage spells, get total higher STR bonus (also 24/7) from DD, light adamantine armour gets a bit of damage reduction, and you are a scholar instead of an illiterate!

very nice ... I have seen that one somewhere before .... I like it

 

[Solo]

I'm 100% reasonably sure Gia doesn't have a Monk to showcase, and if he does it's mostly just bullet lists of his traits and the only notes on outcome are horrible.

So how about this? ~Courtesy of Solo.

(click to show/hide)

Alright, so I had the recent and unique insight that the Duelist prestige class synergies with the Monk. Behold what can be done when you put these two powerful character options together, for it shall make even the mightiest wizard quake in his boots!

The thought occurred to me when I realized that the Duelist was the only other core class than the monk which received a mental stat to AC, namely Int. Obviously, if you made a character focused on Dexterity, Wisdom, and Intelligence, you could get sky-high AC and be nigh-invulnerable in combat. Thus I propose the following build for anyone who enjoys swashbuckling combat in a high-stakes environment.

Class progression: Monk6/Fighter2/Paladin2/Duelist10
Race: Human
Feats:
Monk bonus: Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip
Fighter Bonus: Dodge, Mobility
Character: Improved Initiative, Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse,  Improved Natural Attack, Two Weapon Fighting, Spring Attack, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Greater Two Weapon Fighting

With this setup, you will have +18 BAB, which is only 2 less than that of an 20th level Fighter, meaning you won't have any trouble when it comes to hitting. Moreover, your defense will be outstanding. Not only is your regular AC high, but your touch AC will be phenomenal.

Assuming a total score of 26, 22, 22 in Dex, Int, and Wis respectively, AC when fighting defensively can be as high as:
8 (Dex)+ 6 (Int) + 6 (Wis) + 2 (Monk AC bonus) +1 (Haste) +5 (Bracers of Armor) + 5 (Deflection) + 1 (Ioun Stone) + 5 (Defending) +5 (Combat Expertise) +3 (fighting defensively with 5 ranks in Tumble) + 10 (Duelist class bonus when fighting defensively) = 57 (Touch 52)

Assumed equipment: Monk's Belt, Boots of Speed, Bracers of Armor, Ring of Deflection, Ioun Stone, +5 Defending Kama, various Tomes.

When you compare this to high level monsters such as a Balor or Pit Fiend, with attack bonuses of +33 and +30 respectively, we can see that they are simply unable to be hit by either of them except on a natural 20. This is an incredible asset in combat because it makes you nearly invincible.

Now, a Duelist won't be able to deal much damage, but you're not playing a Duelist to kick ass in the same way a Barbarian does, you're doing it for the roleplaying potential. Besides, there are so many other roles in battle to fill; a Duelist's main strength is mobility, so it would be a good idea to capitalize on that. Spring Attack, tumble, and Mobility allow you to run around the battlefield at top speed thanks to your unarmored status, dealing damage wherever it is needed to support the main melee combatants and providing a critical flanking bonus so that the rogue can sneak attack should he wind up in an unfavorable position. In addition, you can stun enemies with your Stunning Fist attack, whose DC will be through the roof since Wisdom is an important stat for this build. This is truly a superior supporting character for the battlefield that not even a Bard can rival.

Since your reflex saves would be through the roof, you will never fail a reflex save. Since you have evasion, that means a wizard could cast Fireball at you all day without you breaking so much as a sweat. If he chooses to cast ray spells, he'll miss horribly, since not even True Strike would enable a ray to hit. Fortitude saves will be a cinch to make due to getting a great fortitude progression from the fighter, paladin and monk, as well as Cha to saves; likewise, the monk's good will saves coupled with high wisdom and the paladin's save bonus means that will saves will be trivial to pass as well. Anything else can obviously be handled by a simple Mantle of Spell Resistance combined with a Ring of Blinking, so you aren't even there half the time!

Admittedly, a Magic Missile spell can still target you if you're on the Etheral Plane, but a simple wand of Shield can solve that problem. Due to your high Int, you will have more skill points than you know what to deal with, so having cross class ranks in UMD is entirely possible. Combined with the Charisma you have for saves, you'll easily be able to make the DC20 UMD check to activate a wand.

It's worth noting that since activating a wand has a flat DC, you could use wands of other spells to augment your fighting capability. If you find that there is not enough cash in your coffers after boosting your Dex, Int, Wis, and Cha, then a few partially charged wands may make for a good investment, like buying used cars.

This is how you make a truly fearsome magekiller! Wield carefully this power you now hold in your hand, for knowledge is a double edged, two bladed sword with spikes on the handle.

For the record, Giacomo supported the build in my original thread on the subject.

[Sir Giacomo]

@carnivore:
the attack bonus of +20 for the monk contains +1 weapon focus, +1 haste, +1 enhancement from amulet+1 and +2 from a +4 STR enhancer. BAB is 15.
Good point on the blood bond - confused that.

Otherwise:
- if people take offence with leadership, replace it with any other feat.
- the reason why I saw some use in Solo's parody monk build can be found in my posts in the original linked thread. Anyhow, it is not a monk without monk

- Giacomo

[ImperatorK]

Leadership can be replaced with Simple Weapon Prof., for the unarmed strike prof.

[carnivore]

Leadership can be replaced with Simple Weapon Prof., for the unarmed strike prof.

this is one thing I simply dont understand .... hence the reason I use Bold Print and Color in my posts .... Do you believe that a Monk does not already have Proficency in Unarmed Strike?


look at page 41 in the Players Handbook, there is a Paragraph titled Unarmed Strike .... notice the Quote of the first sentence:

"Monks are highly trained in fighting unarmed, giving them considerable advantages when doing so. At 1st level a Monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a Bonus Feat."

That Unarmed Strike does not appear in the Weapon Proficency section is Irrelavant, since it has its own entry as a Class Ability and is handled differently than Unarmed Strike for other characters.

 

[ImperatorK]

Improved Unarmed Strike says nothing about giving proficiency in it.
Fluff text is irrelevant.
That Unarmed Strike does not appear in the Weapon Proficiency section is irrelevant, because it's just a stupid failure on WoTC's part and no sane DM will follow RAW to this extent. Monks Unarmed Strike class feature is irrelevant, because it also says nothing about giving proficiency in it.

[snakeman830]

To give another example (this one backed by mechanics), look at Swordsage 1.  Note the Discipline Focus and what it does if you choose, say, Shadow Hand.  It gives you Weapon Focus in the spiked chain.  Weapon Focus means you have spent a fair bit of time training with that weapon.  Yet a Swordsage is still not proficient with a spiked chain.

[zioth]

Gauntlets are indeed a weapon. If a monk uses any weapon not listed as a special monk weapon, she does not gain her better attack rate. She would, however, gain the increased damage for unarmed attacks.

Good to know. It doesn't matter though, because even without the two extra attacks from flurry, both the straight monk and the monk/fighter do more damage than the fake monk.

My builds also benefit much more from the help of other party members. For example, when polymorphed into a huge creature, the straight monk does MUCH more damage than the fake monk with a similar polymorph. The real monk gets similarly superior benefits from spells like Greater Mighty Wallop (non-core).

[Solo]

@carnivore:
the attack bonus of +20 for the monk contains +1 weapon focus, +1 haste, +1 enhancement from amulet+1 and +2 from a +4 STR enhancer. BAB is 15.

+20 total attack bonus at level 20?