Author Topic: Monk without monk (Core build)  (Read 33744 times)

Offline ImperatorK

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Re: Monk without monk (Core build)
« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2011, 05:32:42 PM »
Let me say it E-V-E-N S-L-O-W-E-R so you can understand - he said "Using the 7 feats", but wrote only 5, from which GTWF has two feats as prerequisites... Think about it for a moment.
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Offline zioth

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Re: Monk without monk (Core build)
« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2011, 05:42:40 PM »
You sure like your large font sizes , bright colors and Capital Letters...

The reason I said your BaB was wrong was because in your first post, you claimed a BaB of 13. I hadn't noticed that you revised your build in a later post.


Quote
you cannot Flurry with a Gauntlet
From the SRD:
"Gauntlet: This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack."

A gauntlet is for unarmed strikes, and an unarmed strike is a valid monk weapon. Therefore you can flurry with a gauntlet.

So aside from some minor errors which I corrected in a later post, my thrown-together, poorly-optimized build still stands, and still does a lot more unarmed damage than the fake monk. Here's the fully corrected version, with one more correction (forgot to factor in the +1 weapon):


Monk 20
BAB +15
Using the wealth you spent on your build: +1/+1 frost, flaming, shock gauntlets, and boots of speed.
Using the 7 feats you spent on your build: TWF, iTWF, gTWF (there, now I've been explicit), Improved Natural Attack, Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, Improved Initiative
Speed: 120 with haste

Unarmed Damage 4d8 +3d6 +1(avg extra damage from improved crit) +1 (30 average)
Full attack with Flurry+gTWF+Speed: +16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+11/+11/+6/+6/1
If all Hit = Total Damage 300 - 76 more damage than the fake monk


Monk16/Fighter4:
BaB: +16
Feats: Same as above, plus Weapon Specialization, and three extra feats for whatever.
Equipment: Monk's Belt
Unarmed Damage 4d8 +3d6 +4 (31 average)
Full attack with Flurry+gTWF+Speed: +17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+12/+12/+7/+7/+2/-3
If all Hit = Total Damage 352 - More than 50% better than the fake monk



Again, these are poorly optimized monks, and they beat your optimized fake monk -- not in everything, but in damage, AC, saves (plus Improved Evasion), speed, SR, initiative, stunning fist, feats and equipment (they don't have to pay +50% cost to improve items in so many slots). They also beat your fake monk in hindering situations, such as an antimagic field, or when sneak attack is impossible (which happens quite often at level 20).

Your character gets many useless class abilities (due to low class level), plus Aura of Despair, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Hide in Plain Sight, and a fair number of low-level spells.

Finally, while the monk depends on str, dex, con and wis, your fake monk depends on all of those plus cha (if he wants to compete on saves).

Your character might be more fun to play because of the spells, but for defense and melee power, I'd take the monk.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 05:51:42 PM by zioth »

Offline Halinn

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Re: Monk without monk (Core build)
« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2011, 06:31:57 PM »
... an unarmed strike is a valid monk weapon ...

Quote from: SRD
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Monks are proficient with club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling.

Offline carnivore

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Re: Monk without monk (Core build)
« Reply #43 on: November 15, 2011, 06:44:24 PM »
You sure like your large font sizes , bright colors and Capital Letters...

The reason I said your BaB was wrong was because in your first post, you claimed a BaB of 13. I hadn't noticed that you revised your build in a later post.
in this Thread ..... I did not post my build originally, Prime32... posted a quote of my build, which if you looked at it you would realize that it indeed had a BAB +17, since BAB is derived from Class levels .... what I revised was adding some Colors and highlights, but not relavant material

Quote
Quote
you cannot Flurry with a Gauntlet
From the SRD:
"Gauntlet: This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack."

A gauntlet is for unarmed strikes, and an unarmed strike is a valid monk weapon. Therefore you can flurry with a gauntlet.
this may be acceptable as a houserule in your games, however... WoTC feels differently... notice:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a

Quote from: FAQ,page 21
Can a monk use a +5 gauntlet in an unarmed attack, gaining all of her class benefits as well as the +5 bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls from the gauntlet?

Gauntlets are indeed a weapon. If a monk uses any weapon not listed as a special monk weapon, she does not gain her better attack rate. She would, however, gain the increased damage for unarmed attacks.


try again

 :D

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Monk without monk (Core build)
« Reply #44 on: November 15, 2011, 06:47:11 PM »

 :whistle ... where's that old eating Popcorn smiley face ?



Best I can do is Druid 5 / Monk 1 / Druid X ... so I don't qualify.
Monk 1 / Druid 19 could be massaged a little early on ; still doesn't qualify.
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Offline Lycanthromancer

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Re: Monk without monk (Core build)
« Reply #45 on: November 15, 2011, 07:15:49 PM »
Monks aren't proficient in either gauntlets OR unarmed strikes.


Offline ImperatorK

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Re: Monk without monk (Core build)
« Reply #46 on: November 15, 2011, 07:25:50 PM »
One feat deals with both problems.
Magic is for weaklings.

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Offline Sir Giacomo

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Re: Monk without monk (Core build)
« Reply #47 on: November 15, 2011, 07:52:15 PM »
Writing a book
Dating my favourite TV moderator (EDIT only once...a shame...)
Looking a shark into its gaping maw
Meeting Sting (EDIT only once ... even more shame ...  ;) )
Discussing core builds with carnivore


Hey, that list now is complete! :)

Anyway, carnivore – the thread originally is about how builds can emulate the monk in core, not whether they are better in a certain aspect. And I think your build still misses a lot of important monk class aspects.

Also, I am not even sure about the combat part...

Here’s a simple human core monk lvl 20, also with 80k gold equipment (note that you do not need a ring of feather falling, the assassin already has it as a spell).

FEATS
Weapon Focus Unarmed Strike (Human)
Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk)
Improved Grapple (Monk)
Improved Initiative (level 1)
Combat Reflexes (Monk)
Blind-Fight (Level 3)
Improved Trip (Monk)
INA (level 6)
Leadership (level 9, to equal the blackguard’s minions)
Stunning Fist (level 12)
Improved Critical – Unarmed Strike (level 15)
Power Attack (level 18, or take flyby attack in case of flying speed)

EQUIPMENT (80k max)
Ring of Freedom of movement (equals blackguard spell, 40k)
Belt +4 STR (equals blackguard bull’s strength, 16k)
Amulet of natural attacks +1 (6k)
Boots of speed (12k)
Permanent buff for large form, either enlarge (3.1k+, when polymorphing is out) or RAW PaO (when morphing spells are allowed) into large outsider (1.2k). Assumption here: an enlarge effect despite perfect self restriction (or polymorph ban would disadvantage monk too much)

ATTACK COMPARISON
(click to show/hide)
RESULT ATTACK COMPARISON: Advantage monk

DAMAGE COMPARISON
(click to show/hide)
RESULT DAMAGE COMPARISON: A draw (somewhat more damage from MWM, but less reliably so – and if you ask me, I’d here go for the monk damage)

DEFENSE COMPARISON
(click to show/hide)
RESULT DEFENSE COMPARISON: Advantage monk

SKILLS COMPARISON
(click to show/hide)
RESULT SKILL COMPARISON Advantage MWM

AND ALL THE REST....
(click to show/hide)
RESULT REST COMPARISON: Draw

OVERALL COMPARISON/RESULTS
Carnivore, your build is interesting. However...
... it does not really achieve „monk without a monk in core“...
... nor does it appear better to me.

What do you think?

- Giacomo

PS: Glad that you liked my rogue-without-rogue. :D
What about this one:
Barbarian-without-barbarian:
Bard 8/Fighter 2/Dragon disciple 10
Spam rage spells, get total higher STR bonus (also 24/7) from DD, light adamantine armour gets a bit of damage reduction, and you are a scholar instead of an illiterate!
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 08:05:57 PM by Sir Giacomo »

Offline Tshern

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Re: Monk without monk (Core build)
« Reply #48 on: November 15, 2011, 08:47:55 PM »
Leadership (level 9, to equal the blackguard’s minions)
What?
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Ja rauenneilla kasvoilla
Viipyy muiston pysyvyys

Offline ImperatorK

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Re: Monk without monk (Core build)
« Reply #49 on: November 15, 2011, 08:58:43 PM »
Giacomo, why is your build trying to emulate carnivore's build? Isn't it supposed to be the other way around? Your Monk should be a Monk, not some fake Blackguard/Assassin.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 09:00:29 PM by ImperatorK »
Magic is for weaklings.

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Offline carnivore

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Re: Monk without monk (Core build)
« Reply #50 on: November 15, 2011, 10:21:53 PM »
quick question .... how did you figure the Attack Bonuses? more specificly how did the Monk get +20 BAB?

also, FYI ... the Blood Bond only benefits the Fiendish Servant, not the Blackguard.

thank you for your response .... I will address the entire post tomorrow

 :D

Offline carnivore

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Re: Monk without monk (Core build)
« Reply #51 on: November 15, 2011, 10:24:40 PM »

PS: Glad that you liked my rogue-without-rogue. :D
What about this one:
Barbarian-without-barbarian:
Bard 8/Fighter 2/Dragon disciple 10
Spam rage spells, get total higher STR bonus (also 24/7) from DD, light adamantine armour gets a bit of damage reduction, and you are a scholar instead of an illiterate!

very nice ... I have seen that one somewhere before .... I like it

 :D

Offline Solo

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Re: Monk without monk (Core build)
« Reply #52 on: November 15, 2011, 11:10:31 PM »
I'm 100% reasonably sure Gia doesn't have a Monk to showcase, and if he does it's mostly just bullet lists of his traits and the only notes on outcome are horrible.

So how about this? ~Courtesy of Solo.
(click to show/hide)
For the record, Giacomo supported the build in my original thread on the subject.
"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down."

Offline Sir Giacomo

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Re: Monk without monk (Core build)
« Reply #53 on: November 16, 2011, 01:56:25 AM »
@carnivore:
the attack bonus of +20 for the monk contains +1 weapon focus, +1 haste, +1 enhancement from amulet+1 and +2 from a +4 STR enhancer. BAB is 15.
Good point on the blood bond - confused that.

Otherwise:
- if people take offence with leadership, replace it with any other feat.
- the reason why I saw some use in Solo's parody monk build can be found in my posts in the original linked thread. Anyhow, it is not a monk without monk ;)

- Giacomo


Offline ImperatorK

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Re: Monk without monk (Core build)
« Reply #54 on: November 16, 2011, 02:12:27 AM »
Leadership can be replaced with Simple Weapon Prof., for the unarmed strike prof.
Magic is for weaklings.

Alucard: "*snif snif* Huh? Suddenly it reeks of hypocrisy in here. Oh, if it isn't the Catholic Church. And what's this? No little Timmy glued to your crotch. Progress!"
My YT channel - LoL gameplay

Offline carnivore

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Re: Monk without monk (Core build)
« Reply #55 on: November 16, 2011, 05:52:05 AM »
Leadership can be replaced with Simple Weapon Prof., for the unarmed strike prof.

this is one thing I simply dont understand .... hence the reason I use Bold Print and Color in my posts .... Do you believe that a Monk does not already have Proficency in Unarmed Strike?


look at page 41 in the Players Handbook, there is a Paragraph titled Unarmed Strike .... notice the Quote of the first sentence:

"Monks are highly trained in fighting unarmed, giving them considerable advantages when doing so. At 1st level a Monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a Bonus Feat."

That Unarmed Strike does not appear in the Weapon Proficency section is Irrelavant, since it has its own entry as a Class Ability and is handled differently than Unarmed Strike for other characters.

 :D

Offline ImperatorK

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Re: Monk without monk (Core build)
« Reply #56 on: November 16, 2011, 06:05:04 AM »
Improved Unarmed Strike says nothing about giving proficiency in it.
Fluff text is irrelevant.
That Unarmed Strike does not appear in the Weapon Proficiency section is irrelevant, because it's just a stupid failure on WoTC's part and no sane DM will follow RAW to this extent. Monks Unarmed Strike class feature is irrelevant, because it also says nothing about giving proficiency in it.
Magic is for weaklings.

Alucard: "*snif snif* Huh? Suddenly it reeks of hypocrisy in here. Oh, if it isn't the Catholic Church. And what's this? No little Timmy glued to your crotch. Progress!"
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Offline snakeman830

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Re: Monk without monk (Core build)
« Reply #57 on: November 16, 2011, 07:29:45 AM »
To give another example (this one backed by mechanics), look at Swordsage 1.  Note the Discipline Focus and what it does if you choose, say, Shadow Hand.  It gives you Weapon Focus in the spiked chain.  Weapon Focus means you have spent a fair bit of time training with that weapon.  Yet a Swordsage is still not proficient with a spiked chain.
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Offline zioth

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Re: Monk without monk (Core build)
« Reply #58 on: November 16, 2011, 10:24:37 AM »
Quote
Gauntlets are indeed a weapon. If a monk uses any weapon not listed as a special monk weapon, she does not gain her better attack rate. She would, however, gain the increased damage for unarmed attacks.

Good to know. It doesn't matter though, because even without the two extra attacks from flurry, both the straight monk and the monk/fighter do more damage than the fake monk.

My builds also benefit much more from the help of other party members. For example, when polymorphed into a huge creature, the straight monk does MUCH more damage than the fake monk with a similar polymorph. The real monk gets similarly superior benefits from spells like Greater Mighty Wallop (non-core).

Offline Solo

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Re: Monk without monk (Core build)
« Reply #59 on: November 16, 2011, 10:28:29 AM »
Quote
@carnivore:
the attack bonus of +20 for the monk contains +1 weapon focus, +1 haste, +1 enhancement from amulet+1 and +2 from a +4 STR enhancer. BAB is 15.
+20 total attack bonus at level 20?
"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down."