Author Topic: Tarrasque (Its Real CR) (Read 8443 times)

Necrosnoop110 · « **on:** February 21, 2013, 12:36:23 PM »

What do you think the Tarrasque's real challenge rating is for a moderately optimized group of PCs (not theoretically optimized)? Do think the big T is really worth a CR 20 when it has an Int of 3 and no real casting abilities? What would you ballpark its CR if you don't think it deserve its current rating?

Peace,
Necro

McBeardly · « **Reply #1 on:** February 21, 2013, 01:36:39 PM »

I'd feel fine throwing it against level 15 or so characters. Maybe as low as 12 if they had prep time and it was a "boss" encounter. I usually give it some rock throwing or spine shooting and a few other modifications bumping it at least to 15 or 16, something getting as high to challenge level 20 again depending on the adventure.

nijineko · « **Reply #2 on:** February 21, 2013, 04:17:12 PM »

it depends on whether the party knows how to kill it or not, i think. it is probably worth the unaltered cr to an ignorant party. informed parties can use optimized tactics, which will appear to throw off the cr rating. if the party has a hard quest to find out how to kill it, perhaps the overall difficulty should be folded into the final cr rating of the creature in a general fashion.

awaken_D_M_golem · « **Reply #3 on:** February 21, 2013, 05:24:41 PM »

Heh, yeah, that's why the 4e version
has a Flight suppression ability.

oslecamo · « **Reply #4 on:** February 21, 2013, 05:34:17 PM »

One key detail about the tarrasque it's that it has lots of HD but horrid feat selection (toughness x6

). If the party is pimped out, it's only fair for the DM to swap around some of the Tarrasque's own feats. Three martial studies here, a martial stance there, grant it some incarnum and binding, perhaps even some epic feats and suddenly the tarrasque is a lot more scary.

Captnq · « **Reply #5 on:** February 21, 2013, 09:37:14 PM »

The actual battle with the tarrasque was a joke. He dropped in two rounds. Then the party had to keep hitting him over and over to keep him down until the wizard could teleport off to town to buy a wish and finish the damn thing off. I think they were 15th level at the time. And my players wonder why I so rarely run things right out of the book.

ksbsnowowl · « **Reply #6 on:** February 21, 2013, 10:04:43 PM »

For a comparable example, I've recently been looking at the Mountain Giant from the MM2, which is supposedly CR 26. He suffers most of the same problems as Big T, but doesn't have SR or require a wish to kill him. Reading around the net it seems people actually peg it at CR 16 or so.

Kethrian · « **Reply #7 on:** February 21, 2013, 10:59:58 PM »

Even against a party of pre-ToB mundanes, the Tarrasque would have serious issues if the PCs were level 20, given that each should have roughly 780,000gp in magic gear. 13,000-54,000gp for a permanent fly speed item, and the PCs are suddenly only going to get hurt if they do something stupid.

Necrosnoop110 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 22, 2013, 10:20:42 AM »

My Group: 15th Psion (Shaper), 15th Cleric (Undead Slaying Focus), 14th Druid (Summoner Focus), 16th Level Barbarian, 15th Level Ranger, 15th Level Rogue (all but the Ranger can fly at will)

Q: What would you recommend I add to the Big T or should I just run him "as is" for this party?

Thanks,
Necro

oslecamo · « **Reply #9 on:** February 22, 2013, 10:35:26 AM »

Retrain its feats. Grab one of the ToB stances that grant flying, probably best shadow hand and one of the teleporting ones. Then add incarnum feats for ranged options and some extra defenses.

Raineh Daze · « **Reply #10 on:** February 22, 2013, 10:53:31 AM »

Alternative method to grant it flight.

oslecamo · « **Reply #11 on:** February 22, 2013, 02:08:35 PM »

Now that I have ToB and MoI in hand those are a good selection of feats for the Tarrasque to retrain into:
-Martial Study for Shadow Blink (swift action teleport)
-Martial Study for Cloak of Deception (swift action invisibility)
-Martial Study for Bloodletting Strike (you need a third feat for below)
-Martial Stance Balance in the Sky (Air Walk)
-Dire Charge epic feat.
-Shape Shouldmeld for Shadow Mantle
-Open Heart Chakra, allowing you to use Shadow Mantle as Ethereal Jaunt.

Get rid of the 6x toughness and alertness.

SorO_Lost · « **Reply #12 on:** February 22, 2013, 02:33:08 PM »

None of those are Epic Feats so you might as well swap Iron Will & Great Fortitude for their Epic versions (+4 instead of +2).

McBeardly · « **Reply #13 on:** February 22, 2013, 02:52:56 PM »

Steadfast Determination works well to buff up its weak will save as well, and in general is better for it than iron will, though it requires two feats instead of 1.

muktidata · « **Reply #14 on:** February 22, 2013, 03:57:10 PM »

Okay, let's just take a look at the resources we have available:

1) 17 Feats (Leadership, anyone?)
2) +3LA (Bought Off)
3) 220,000g

1) There's a Vestige that you could sink 2 feats for which gives half your CON bonus to AC. Steadfast Detetmination, as stated, will also shore up its saves. Sudden Leap could be a funny one to grab via Martial Maneuver alongside Iron Heart Surge. Leadership a bunch of gelatinous cubes that attack the PC's inside the stomach. Or get the Tarrasque to be a size smaller and Leadership a Colossal mount for it. Tarrasque über-charger, anyone?

2) Get non-magical flight here? Two-headed Tarrasque, anyone?

3) You can get +5 Permanent Greater Magic Fang for 8,100g. Grafting could also provide flight. Seems like a better resource to use than LA.

Pimp this Tarrasque, anyone?

phaedrusxy · « **Reply #15 on:** February 22, 2013, 04:20:24 PM »

I love the idea of the Tarrasque taking Leadership and being followed around by a cult of worshippers.

This also solves so many of its problems (they could buff it for flight, etc). Of course, it would probably take a penalty due to eating one of them occasionally, but all power comes with a price.

muktidata · « **Reply #16 on:** February 22, 2013, 04:25:39 PM »

I like the idea of the Tarrasque taking Spirited Charge, decreasing in size, and riding a flying Colossal mount.

linklord231 · « **Reply #17 on:** February 22, 2013, 04:31:10 PM »

He still needs some way to not die to Allips.

phaedrusxy · « **Reply #18 on:** February 22, 2013, 04:32:41 PM »

Quote from: linklord231 on February 22, 2013, 04:31:10 PM

He still needs some way to not die to Allips.

Iron Heart Surge?

(Permanent)(Greater) Magic Fang (from a follower/cohort) on his bite should help, also...

OK, holy crap I now have to use this... It sounds like a great campaign foundation (or at least arc).

The Cult of the Beast
A mad cult seeks to awaken the legendary tarrasque. The PCs at first quest to stop them, but in the ultimate showdown must face the creature, which has been buffed/modified by its followers to be even more formidable.

SorO_Lost · « **Reply #19 on:** February 22, 2013, 05:05:42 PM »

Quote from: linklord231 on February 22, 2013, 04:31:10 PM

He still needs some way to not die to Allips.

Does it? I mean, exactly how many creatures would die if you boxed them in Wall of Force and drowned them? What continues to live happily ever after if you Planeshift it to hell? Certain tactics are not Terrasqua weaknesses, but so BA they work on just about everything anyway.

Big T also has one huge handicap, no treasure. It means it cannot own or buy anything

Shape Soulmeld is about the closet thing it can get to owning a "magical" item. Which seems a little out of context for the Big T but they can be helpful. In fact you can really make use of that HD to compensate for stuff. Bind Dread Carapace to your Totem Chakra and it's a mid thirties Save DC.

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Author Topic: Tarrasque (Its Real CR) (Read 8443 times)