Author Topic: Question about Versatile Spellcaster  (Read 8914 times)

Offline Sillvva

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Question about Versatile Spellcaster
« on: February 23, 2013, 08:00:29 PM »
I googled this to kingdom come, but could not find a satisfactory answer. So, I have a question about the Versatile Spellcaster feat and its compatibility with metamagic feats.

According to SRD:

Quote
Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up.

Quote
You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows.

Does this mean I can apply high cost metamagic feats beyond my spell slot limitations by using two slots of one level lower than the spell's original spell level?

EDIT: Just noticed the Ask a question section, sorry if this was in the wrong section.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2013, 08:15:15 PM by Sillvva »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Question about Versatile Spellcaster
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2013, 08:18:26 PM »
Quote from: FAQ, pg46
Can a sorcerer combine Versatile Spellcasting with a metamagic feat to cast a spell whose level is higher than the level of spells he’d normally be able to cast?
This is possible. For example, a 1st-level sorcerer using the Versatile Spellcaster feat can give up two 1st-level spells to cast extended shield.

It's also the only method that by RAW/Intent allows you to cast spells at a higher level than you should. Intent on prerequisites may still disbar it's usage with Heighten Spell for PrC early entry (actual ability vs capability), through it is still considered acceptable for extremely high optimization / T.O. purposes.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Question about Versatile Spellcaster
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2013, 08:25:48 PM »
Huh, so, wait, with Practical Metamagic and this, could a sorcerer cast a maximised version of an 8th level spell?

Offline Sillvva

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Re: Question about Versatile Spellcaster
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2013, 08:45:30 PM »
Quote from: FAQ, pg46
Can a sorcerer combine Versatile Spellcasting with a metamagic feat to cast a spell whose level is higher than the level of spells he’d normally be able to cast?
This is possible. For example, a 1st-level sorcerer using the Versatile Spellcaster feat can give up two 1st-level spells to cast extended shield.

It's also the only method that by RAW/Intent allows you to cast spells at a higher level than you should. Intent on prerequisites may still disbar it's usage with Heighten Spell for PrC early entry (actual ability vs capability), through it is still considered acceptable for extremely high optimization / T.O. purposes.

Not sure what you meant. Technically, according to wording on metamagic an extended shield is still only a level 1 spell (and only uses a 2nd level slot). So wouldn't they use two 0-level slots? Also couldn't a level 8 sorcerer, for example, use two 3rd-level slots to cast a maximized, twinned, quickened, and empowered Enervation spell? I know it sounds broken, but according to the way it is worded, that's how I'm reading it. Or am I wrong?
« Last Edit: February 23, 2013, 08:54:18 PM by Sillvva »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Question about Versatile Spellcaster
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2013, 09:13:40 PM »
How has this level 8 sorcerer got their hands on quickened? :P

Offline ksbsnowowl

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Re: Question about Versatile Spellcaster
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2013, 09:18:21 PM »
Here.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12171163&postcount=11

Quote from: Ask Wizards 06/03/2008
Q: Can a sorcerer combine Versatile Spellcasting with a metamagic feat to cast a spell whose level is higher than the level of spells he’d normally be able to cast?

A: This is possible. For example, a 1st level sorcerer using the Versatile Spellcaster feat can give up two 1st-level spells to cast extended shield.

Offline Sillvva

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Re: Question about Versatile Spellcaster
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2013, 09:30:45 PM »
Well if I'm right about what I'm reading, the increase in spell slots doesn't matter because (for the third time) it doesn't change the spell level which seems to me to be the only thing that Versatile Spellcaster feat is concerned with (again, spell level and not spell slots). It sounds like it is replacing the metamagic cost and you can therefore use high cost metamagic feats at low levels. That is what I am asking here: does it replace the metamagic costs? Yes or no please.

I wasn't asking about casting spells from the next spell level.

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Question about Versatile Spellcaster
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2013, 01:05:33 AM »
By the technical wording it does only care about spell level.  So yes.  However, you're going to get a book to the head if you try to use two 2nd level spells to cast a 3rd that has been modified out the wazoo with metamagic.

In short, they royally fucked up on the word usage and as such it's a trick that would only get used in Theoretical Optimization.

Offline betrayor

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Re: Question about Versatile Spellcaster
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2013, 06:59:33 AM »
By RAW it could be seen that it is correct,but it is absurd to try and use it that way,no sane dm would let,it is T.O.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Question about Versatile Spellcaster
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2013, 12:50:58 PM »
Well if I'm right about what I'm reading, the increase in spell slots doesn't matter because (for the third time) it doesn't change the spell level
I'm going to target that a moment. I said, "Intent on prerequisites may still disbar it's usage with Heighten Spell for PrC early entry (actual ability vs capability)"

The 'trick' is say a 1st level Human Warmage, Versatile Spellcaster & Heighten Spell. By merging two 1st level slots he can cast a Magic Missile spell that is treated as being a 2nd level for various effects. This is capable of casting 1st level spells, however many effects already make you capable. Scrolls for instance, Wands for another, even certain Races obtain sooner-than-normal SLAs can cast X spell. In a direct example, Precarious Apprentice does grant the capability to cast a 2nd level spell it flat out contains an 'able to cast 2nd level spells' clause for a secondary effect which differentiates between the two, which of course is a "RAW" example that proves otherwise in practice. So there is a high level of tangibility that Prerequisites only refer to the actual abilities in question. Seconded by the fact requirements are not an 'effect' in any context of the rules to which Heighten Spell can say for a fact it influences. But I'm not here to argue that, just explaining things as you seem to getting frustrated.

On the idea of can you use it consecutively? IE four 1st to two 2nds to one 3rd?
That's a no for a few reasons. VS uses two Spell Slots to X-level of Spell and since it does not produce a Spell Slot then you have nothing to work with on that second literation. Inertly, you can only combine Spell Slots and not other sources of spellcasting such as a Ring of Spell Storing or VS's spell fuel conversion. Further this is done on cast and not on preparation so you could not sit down and prepare two 4th level slots as a 5th level slot irregardless if it said it gave you a 5th level slot, meaning you'd have to apply the Feat multiple times at once. And  unless noted otherwise Feats do not stack with them selves and even on top of that it names two to one, but not you may repeat NI times or four slots to two to one super big.

And can you use it to pay for Metamagic Costs?
Not directly. Much in the same way a 3rd level Slot cannot be used to help pay for or reduce the cost of an Empowered 2nd level Spell, VS cannot 'reduce' Metamagic costs. It does give the capability of casting a higher level spell which can be used as normal. For instance, Practical Metamagic(empower) reduces Empower from +2 to +1, so you could combine two 1st level Spell Slots to cast a 2nd level spell, this in turn could be used to cast an Empower 1st level spell because in this specific case the Empowered spell is 2nd level, and VS is allowing you to cast a 2nd level spell by way of two 1sts. In the end result you are using two 1sts to cast a normally 3rd level spell, but no you cannot use VS to reduce Metamagic costs, you only change how you're casting the required spell level in question.

Also in closing; You should never goto GitP if you want to talk about game rules. Ever.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2013, 12:59:09 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline linklord231

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Re: Question about Versatile Spellcaster
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2013, 02:01:45 PM »
Elven Generalist + Domain Wizard might let you "chain" Versatile Spellcaster.  I don't remember the details well enough to say whether it works for sure or not, but if I recall correctly, both give you bonus spell slots of the highest level you can cast.
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Question about Versatile Spellcaster
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2013, 03:48:46 PM »
Elven Generalist + Domain Wizard might let you "chain" Versatile Spellcaster.  I don't remember the details well enough to say whether it works for sure or not, but if I recall correctly, both give you bonus spell slots of the highest level you can cast.
Might is a pretty strong word. By RAW Domain Wizard grants a Bonus Spell for every level at level 1, either you can already cast 9th level spells or again by RAW you cannot because the Bonus Spells are dependent on Spellcaster Level. Who in their right mind would add the assumption that you can substitute a Class Features you don't have on top of things?

Offline linklord231

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Re: Question about Versatile Spellcaster
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2013, 06:19:00 PM »
I thought Domain Wizard had language similar to Elven Generalist, with the whole "you gain these bonus spell slots when you are able to cast spells of X level," but I don't care enough to look it up.  And I'm fairly certain Domain Wizard only cares whether or not you are a specialist, not whether or not you could be one. 
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Question about Versatile Spellcaster
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2013, 09:56:27 PM »
It's not about being Specialist or not. ACFs replace the level of the normal Class and that is a very important fact. Elven Wizard states the Generalist substitution replaces the standard wizard’s ability to specialize. With the words "substitute" & "replace" and you can go two ways with things. Either you have replaced your choices in what you can specialize in to be Generalist only and then choose that which makes you equivalent to being a Specialist, or you have utterly traded away the ability to specialize. Either way, Domain Wizard exchanges your School based Specialist option for Domains provided you are not a Specialist, and exchanges are not free. Do you see the problem there?

And it gets worse. A more strict reading of RAW prohibits these two from interacting at all. Elf Wizard says your Spells Per Day is As Standard Wizard with of course the exception of the Generalist addition. Domain Wizard's Spellcasting is as normal Wizard except of course the Domain addition. Each one tweaks the Wizard's Spellcasting then each routes back to Standard/Normal Spellcasting. No matter how you stack them, the last one always says Standard Wizard + My Mods and does not allow another ACF to tweak things.

Now you can call it SorO's crap or BS if you like. Personally, if you already think you have this fallacy of being able to use Domain Wizard's Bonus Spells as you like, you should have walked away with Shapechange in hand instead of inviting more stuff for people to rip into.

Offline linklord231

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Re: Question about Versatile Spellcaster
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2013, 11:40:16 PM »
Fine, I'll go read the abilities :grave

Ok, you're right, it doesn't work.  But not for the reasons you said. 
Here's what Domain Wizard says: 
Quote
A domain wizard cannot also be a specialist wizard; in exchange for the versatility given up by specializing in a domain instead of an entire school, the domain wizard casts her chosen spells with increased power.

And here's what the Elf Wizard sub level says:
Quote
This substitution feature replaces the standard wizard’s ability to specialize in a school of magic.

If I have replaced my ability to specialize, then I obviously am not a specialist Wizard.  The two are not mutually exclusive. 

No, the reason it doesn't work is because of the way Elf Wizard works.  Check it:
Quote
The elf wizard may also prepare one additional spell of her highest spell level each day. Unlike the specialist wizard ability, this spell may be of any school.
You only get that bonus slot once per day, when you sit down and regain spell slots.  It's not "floating."
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.