Author Topic: Balancing the chance to be awesome versus the chance to suck  (Read 9867 times)

Offline Jackinthegreen

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 6176
  • I like green.
    • View Profile
Balancing the chance to be awesome versus the chance to suck
« on: March 03, 2013, 01:56:01 AM »
I'm mostly looking at attack rolls with this, but saves get an honorable mention too.  Basically the question is about how you feel the game handles the chance to automatically miss versus the chance to critically hit.

I'm not sure quite how to word all the things I wonder about the way D&D handles automatic fails versus automatic successes, so I guess I'll just list them in no particular order.

Do you like having the chance to automatically fail based on chance?  If so, how much of it might be acceptable?  Have you ever had such a bad (or good) streak on rolls that the tone of the entire campaign changed?  Does the setting influence the enjoyment of that randomness? (tabletop versus PBP for example)
Where the heck did they get the idea for automatic fails and successes anyway?
Have you tried a system that changed these dynamics up?  If so, how did it turn out?
As a DM, do you do anything special if bad or good luck strikes at a time when it would spell disaster?  Do you plan your encounters such that the players rolling terribly and/or you rolling excellently won't actually screw up the players so badly?
Players, how much investment might you think is reasonable to help mitigate bad rolls?

One of the things I've enjoyed about Torchlight 2 is that there aren't automatic fails on attacks.  There's no "cap at 95% accuracy" thing going on.  Instead, the mechanic in place to give some chance to the equation is a fumble chance, but the fumble is simply a chance to do lower damage, not miss entirely, and both the chance to fumble and the amount of damage lost from it can be lowered through gear and stats.  Likewise, there is no crit confirmation.  If it comes up as a crit, you crit, and nothing is immune.  What the player can do is gear up specifically to increase crit chance as well as increase crit damage.

I'm left wondering if auto-fails and such are actually vital to the game, or if they actually detract from it.  And perhaps if it is a good part of the game, am I a pussy for getting upset over a series of bad rolls in a clinch moment?  A bit I'd reckon, since it is just a game, but I can't really help but feel shafted from my reward of investing time and energy into something.

Anyway, that's my rant/ramble.  What are your thoughts on both the game mechanics and your own reactions to those mechanics?

Offline Bauglir

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 629
  • Constrained
    • View Profile
Re: Balancing the chance to be awesome versus the chance to suck
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2013, 09:25:42 PM »
My own thinking is that if you're going to include these mechanics at all (and there's an argument to be made that they add drama and tension to the die rolls), you need them to be a function of level. The absolute worst outcome of this in a vacuum is exemplified by D&D with crit fails and iterative attacks. Many crit fail systems have the crit hurt you, and don't scale either your chance of getting a crit fail or the consequences of one by level, so that a level 20 fighter is likelier to decapitate an ally than a level 1 fighter. If you're going to have crit fails at all, you need to use them as an element of design. By that, I mean that you can't just tack them on - they need to serve a purpose other than "occasional hilarity", and it needs to be more specific than "adds drama".

Personally, I prefer to scale them so that you are less likely to get a crit fail as your skill improves. The purpose this shows, then, is that you are less reliant on luck because you're sufficiently badass that your own skill is the core of what you need. It doesn't matter so much that maybe there's inconvenient footing that might trip up a lesser swordsman, or that you're fighting in close quarters with allies you don't want to hurt - you've got the skill to handle that. Critical failures then become a way of enhancing the feeling of advancement from weak characters to those with greater control over their own destinies. For instance, if I put some kind of auto-miss or critical failure system into a game, I would supplement it with the following houserule:

"Whenever you make an attack roll, a high base attack bonus allows you to make extra rolls, from which you choose the best. You roll 1 die for every attack granted you by virtue of your base attack bonus (1 at BAB 5 or less, 2 at BAB less than 11 but greater than 5, and so on). Other sources of extra attacks don't grant you extra die rolls.

You threaten critical hits as normal, using the die that ultimately determines your attack roll. If all of your dice are natural 1s, then you suffer a critical failure."

I probably won't add such a houserule because table lookups for this sort of thing are clunky and annoying, but if I came up with a unified mechanic it might be useful for lending some particular feel to a particular campaign. It should also be noted that most of my games are electronic, so I'm disregarding the slowdown of rolling that many dice at once and finding the highest, since it's a nonissue in my play environment. I absolutely would not use critical failures at a meatspace game, because I don't think it's possible to make them serve a good purpose while also keeping play streamlined.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2013, 09:28:03 PM by Bauglir »

Offline veekie

  • Spinner of Fortunes
  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 5423
  • Chaos Dice
    • View Profile
Re: Balancing the chance to be awesome versus the chance to suck
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2013, 11:21:28 PM »
Well your rolls have two purposes:
-Mediating the interaction between character and challenge, accounting for specialization and power level.
-Generating unplanned story through twists.

The former just says that when doing something you're specialized in against an 'unworthy challenge' you succeed. The latter says that success and failure can be partially independent of your skill level if it makes the story more interesting. This excludes things where failure ends the story(thus, auto fails on save or die effects are bad, but autofails on ATTACKS are less bad) and where failure doesn't alter the resolution or generate a narrative of it's own.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline Kasz

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 574
  • The God-Emperor protects, the Omnissiah provides.
    • View Profile
Re: Balancing the chance to be awesome versus the chance to suck
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2013, 05:57:55 AM »
In my campaigns a 1 is always a miss, but not a fail/fumble, I ask for a second roll and a second 1 is then a fumble, making them less likely than crits. My reasoning: People in combat are more likely to hit an organ/artery than themselves.

A double 1 is 1/400 whereas a Crit is much higher odds, depending on your weapon / opponents AC. If you can hit your foe on a 12+ and your weapon is a 20 crit range you've got like... oh god math... It's just over 33/400 but under 34/400, works out to about 8.25% of the time you'll crit 2.25%(against a decent AC foe and with a low crit chance weapon). Much better than 1/400 which is 0.25% chance to fail.

The chance to fail is constant, the chance to crit depends on your enemy and weapon.

The thing I hate is when one player rolls a string of 15-20's and another rolls a string of 1-5's. It happens and it can spoil that player's experience. One of my players is quite competitive and loves the combat side of the game... when he rolls a string of low attack rolls he gets annoyed and it makes the game less enjoyable for everyone due to the resulting tension.

Autofails and successes on saves are balanced. it's just a 5% chance either way... assuming you have none of the feats that allow you to succeed on a 1, or reroll a 1. It's quite funny to think that your save modifier only matters 9/10 times. You've just got to be careful because nothing sucks quite as hard to losing a character to a single roll of a 1.

Edit; Oh God, Math
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 10:11:15 AM by Kasz »

Offline Gribel

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 139
    • View Profile
Re: Balancing the chance to be awesome versus the chance to suck
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2013, 07:30:20 AM »
Higher level characters have more resources that they can (and should) invest in rerolling. Luck feats, Pride domain, magic items (this, for example), all of those make higher level characters less likely to auto fail on a natural 1. There are options to fix this randomness, and although they cost resources, I'm fine with them.
(click to show/hide)
Oh, and stinking cloud has to be one of my favorate battlefield spells. Combined with sleet stor, you can shut a group down and keep them shut down, trapped inside a fart. When does that ever get old?

Offline zugschef

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 699
    • View Profile
Re: Balancing the chance to be awesome versus the chance to suck
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2013, 09:51:26 AM »
Autofails and successes on saves are balanced.
it's a stupid 3.5 houserule by skip williams. just like the part where quicken spell isn't supposed to work with spontaneous casting when it actually does.

Offline Bauglir

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 629
  • Constrained
    • View Profile
Re: Balancing the chance to be awesome versus the chance to suck
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2013, 10:27:24 AM »
That they are mathematically balanced and make for nice symmetrical numbers doesn't mean they make for balanced gameplay.

Offline veekie

  • Spinner of Fortunes
  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 5423
  • Chaos Dice
    • View Profile
Re: Balancing the chance to be awesome versus the chance to suck
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2013, 10:31:45 AM »
Actually, while I doubt the authors thought that far, a flat success and failure rate can act as a buffer against hyperoptimization. You always have a chance to hit, you always can do at least SOMETHING(if not much of that thing), rather than it being completely futile.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline zugschef

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 699
    • View Profile
Re: Balancing the chance to be awesome versus the chance to suck
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2013, 02:22:39 PM »
Actually, while I doubt the authors thought that far, a flat success and failure rate can act as a buffer against hyperoptimization. You always have a chance to hit, you always can do at least SOMETHING(if not much of that thing), rather than it being completely futile.
automatic success isn't the problem, automatic failure is. both are bad for pcs (think of 1000 level 1 archers), but the latter is much worse (think of a cockatrice).

Offline veekie

  • Spinner of Fortunes
  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 5423
  • Chaos Dice
    • View Profile
Re: Balancing the chance to be awesome versus the chance to suck
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2013, 02:53:02 PM »
See my post before that for consideration. Automatic success and failure should never govern story-ending effects, but they can and should feed into story-altering effects. Similarly for critical success and failure, they should make things unexpectedly interesting, but not break it.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline zugschef

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 699
    • View Profile
Re: Balancing the chance to be awesome versus the chance to suck
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2013, 04:45:38 PM »
See my post before that for consideration. Automatic success and failure should never govern story-ending effects, but they can and should feed into story-altering effects. Similarly for critical success and failure, they should make things unexpectedly interesting, but not break it.
i'm not sold on that. a specialist should never fail in his speciality solely due to bad luck no matter what the consequence.

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10577
  • hi
    • View Profile
Re: Balancing the chance to be awesome versus the chance to suck
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2013, 04:56:38 PM »
It's apparently much easier to attack than defend.

A level 100 colossal monstrosity of some description should not have a 5% chance of missing a six year old, either. Critical failures seem... illogical. :|

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7639
  • classique style , invisible tail
    • View Profile
Re: Balancing the chance to be awesome versus the chance to suck
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2013, 05:34:10 PM »
Sad monster says:  I'm a level 100 colossal monstrosity, but I miss a certain 6 year old, like 100%.



I like the idea that a mob of British soccer hooligans
with a 1/20 hit chance apiece, could take down Thor.
(and what better use of their time, yes?)

btw ... this is a good enough in-game reason why Deities don't curb stomp everybody they don't like.
(maybe not the best reason, but reason enough)
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline zugschef

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 699
    • View Profile
Re: Balancing the chance to be awesome versus the chance to suck
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2013, 05:58:31 PM »
btw ... this is a good enough in-game reason why Deities don't curb stomp everybody they don't like.
(maybe not the best reason, but reason enough)
w007? it's because deities die without followers and because other deities would intervene. (i actually hope you are trolling)

Offline linklord231

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3352
  • The dice are trying to kill me
    • View Profile
Re: Balancing the chance to be awesome versus the chance to suck
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2013, 06:32:28 PM »
btw ... this is a good enough in-game reason why Deities don't curb stomp everybody they don't like.
(maybe not the best reason, but reason enough)
w007? it's because deities die without followers and because other deities would intervene. (i actually hope you are trolling)

Is this actually established outside of Forgotten Realms?  I don't know the lore of other campaign settings well enough.
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline veekie

  • Spinner of Fortunes
  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 5423
  • Chaos Dice
    • View Profile
Re: Balancing the chance to be awesome versus the chance to suck
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2013, 09:58:51 PM »
See my post before that for consideration. Automatic success and failure should never govern story-ending effects, but they can and should feed into story-altering effects. Similarly for critical success and failure, they should make things unexpectedly interesting, but not break it.
i'm not sold on that. a specialist should never fail in his speciality solely due to bad luck no matter what the consequence.
It is for the reason of contestability. The possibility of failure means you cannot push yourself off the RNG for any dramatic task(as opposed to non-dramatic tasks), there is always an element of risk. If there is no risk, don't bother rolling.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline ImperatorK

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2313
  • Chara did nothing wrong.
    • View Profile
    • Kristof Imperator YouTube Channel
Re: Balancing the chance to be awesome versus the chance to suck
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2013, 03:58:34 AM »
I removed automatic failures and successes, instead replacing them with bonuses to rolls. If you roll a natural 3 (I use Bell Curve variant) the roll is treated as a -7. If you roll a natural 18 it's treated as a 28.
Magic is for weaklings.

Alucard: "*snif snif* Huh? Suddenly it reeks of hypocrisy in here. Oh, if it isn't the Catholic Church. And what's this? No little Timmy glued to your crotch. Progress!"
My YT channel - LoL gameplay

Offline Kasz

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 574
  • The God-Emperor protects, the Omnissiah provides.
    • View Profile
Re: Balancing the chance to be awesome versus the chance to suck
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2013, 06:26:50 AM »
i'm not sold on that. a specialist should never fail in his speciality solely due to bad luck no matter what the consequence.

That's a very high fantasy assumption. Most real heroes fail at things... Most specialists occasionally fluff their specialty just not as often as an amateur.
A pro skateboarder is a specialist, most of them have been doing it for over a decade, since they were very young... then why do we get the bloopers/crashes reel at the end? because occasionally they do everything right and get unlucky, or they make a minor error.
Green Arrow, Hawkeye and Bullseye occasionally miss... even though they're superhuman heroes with their entire specialty based around being accurate as hell, they're fighting people on par with them and as such they miss when the enemy dodges or something puts them off balance or the sun is in their eyes or w/e.

I like the idea that a mob of British soccer hooligans with a 1/20 hit chance apiece, could take down Thor. (and what better use of their time, yes?)

You're trolling... Only 8 get to attack per round... maybe 20 if you give the second rank reach weapons. 20 attacks, 1 hits, damage reduction and fast healing negate it.
Using the Mob Rules, They'd do more damage but nowhere near enough... also... flight + lightning bolts...

My experience is probably different to most as I use a fumble confirmation of roll a 1, then confirm by rolling a second 1, giving a 1/400 chance to fumble, as opposed to 1/20. I agree, 1/20 is too damn high a chance to fumble... but 1/400 is very reasonable. As with a 1 being a Miss... We houserule that a 1 isn't automatically a miss but it probably is because AC tends to be higher than 10. (not always though) So if you don't fumble and your +hit is high enough you will hit even on a 1.

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10577
  • hi
    • View Profile
Re: Balancing the chance to be awesome versus the chance to suck
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2013, 07:29:53 AM »
A 1/400 chance that something like an ancient red dragon would miss a commoner and hurt itself is simply ludicrous, though. :/

Offline Kasz

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 574
  • The God-Emperor protects, the Omnissiah provides.
    • View Profile
Re: Balancing the chance to be awesome versus the chance to suck
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2013, 08:37:36 AM »
Depends... the Ancient Red Dragon leans forward and swipes at the commoner, missing by a hair's breadth.. placing himself off balance he stumbles forward and recovers (-2AC for 1 round).

The Ancient Red Dragon lashes out with a wing at the commoner, the bone of the wing brushing past the commoner and the leathery wing catching on the commoners dagger, protruding from his belt. (1d6 damage)

The Dragon snaps forth with his razor sharp fangs, striking his head upon a stalactite, this stops his jaws from closing around the commoner and debris fills the air. (1d6 damage & -2 to attack rolls for 1 round due to dust in the eyes)

The above is fine to me... they're a 0.025% chance of occurring, and they're more interesting than "You miss" "you hit deal damage"