Author Topic: Help with Mounted Charging Build  (Read 7875 times)

Offline Lunarambling

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Help with Mounted Charging Build
« on: March 19, 2013, 01:50:42 AM »
Hey folks. So, turns out that I suck at math. I am trying to help a fellow player figure out their damage for their mounted charger build, but am getting all flustered. Here is the basics of what we are dealing with:

Power Attack with Lance in 2H=x2
Leap Attack=x4
Battle Jump=x2
Combat Brute=x3 (Every other round as I understand it)

Now it is out mutual understanding that this specifically only effect the PA damage. However he is also using the following

Spirited Charge =x3 becomes x4 with Riding Boots
Valorous Weapon=x4
Which, I believe is going to be a final modifier of x7?

So, lets say Rosco Charges and PA for 10. Using Halfling Outrider he can leap off his mount at the end of the charge to trigger Battle Jump/Leap Attack and lets assume he did a ride by attack last round to set up Combat Brute. By my understanding he would be Power attacking for a total of 80? Base 10, x2 x4 which becomes just x5 x2 which becomes total of x6 x3 which makes the multiplier x8 in the end.

So Rosco is doing 1d6+Str*1.5+80+10(Collision and +5 Weapon) x7 on each attack?

Is that accurate? Also, the Lance has the Charging Property, adding 2d6, this is not Precision Damage, so does that get multiplied by the Spirited Valorous Charge?
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 01:52:22 AM by Lunarambling »

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Help with Mounted Charging Build
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2013, 02:08:26 AM »
Just clarifying some things:

Leap Attack does deal with PA damage.  Not normal weapon damage.  Thus, it's tracked separately.  Make sure you qualify for it while riding a mount because it is a bit iffy.

Battle Jump does not deal with PA.  It simply doubles weapon damage.  Which actually results in a gain on the PA front if I understand the rules right.  And once again, make sure you can do it while mounted.

A lance used from a mount does 2x damage, so between that and Battle Jump you'd have x3 damage.  Add Valorous and it's x4.  Spirited Charge would make that x5.  Finally, Riding Boots would make that x6.  That's x6 the total weapon damage, which includes the doubled PA, so it's effectively x12 damage.

Combat Brute can work with this build, but the extra damage doesn't actually happen on the charge so the multipliers won't be as useful.  It could work on a second charge, but you're very unlikely to be able to charge an opponent twice in two consecutive rounds so I don't recommend it.

You might find Shock Trooper tickles your fancy instead since you can negate the accuracy issue and instead take away from your AC to power PA.  If your enemy doesn't have a way to make an AoO against you while you're charging then it's quite nice.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 02:12:19 AM by Jackinthegreen »

Offline Lunarambling

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Re: Help with Mounted Charging Build
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2013, 05:51:26 AM »
I was under the impression that when you got the multipliers you basically minused 1, then added them to get the new number like so:

Battle Jump x2+Valorous x4=x5 + x2 for Lance=x6 + x4 from Spirited Charge with teh Riding boots= x9? Rosco is riding a Wyrmling Gold Dragon with a speed of 220(Perfect), Hover, Wingover, Flyby Attack, Ride-by Attack, etc, so pretty sure he should be able to strafe his opponents more often than not, so then add Combat Brute x3 to get x11 total.

So TOTAL damage x11. Plus the PA Damage, prior to that x11 would be x4 due to Leap Attack and a Two Handed Weapon.

As for Battle Jump and Leap Attack, I am applying them due to the Leap From The Saddle(ex) ability of the Halfling Outrider. Specifically, it allows you to make a DC 20 Ride Check to dismount from your Mount as a Free Action, landing adjacent to the Mount, and if there is an Opponent in a Square that you threaten AFTER you Dismount, you can make a melee attack with a +2 bonus, and a -2 penalty to AC And I quote "(Just as if you were making a Charge)" the ability is only useable if the Mount is moving no faster than twice their Speed.

So, Since I can fly OVER the target, dismounting beside my Mount as a Free Action, I will then fall, triggering Battle Jump, and make a Jump Check as part of the movement to trigger Leap Attack. Since Rosco's Dragon is crazy fast, he can then just Snatch Rosco after the fact, allowing Rosco, who has not actually taken an action, to Fast Mount as per the Ride Skill as a Free Action and then make the triggering attack to keep Combat Brute going while using Ride-by Attack. Rinse and Repeat as needed.

I think that works?

Oh, and the 2d6 from the Charging Weapon Enhancement, is that multiplied as well?

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Help with Mounted Charging Build
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2013, 04:55:39 PM »
Where is the Charging enhancement from?  We'll need to look at it specific rules to see how it interacts with things.  If it was a critical hit then it would not, but a non-critical weapon multiplier like using a lance to charge is a bit of a different matter.

I guess I wasn't specific enough with my wording:  Do not add stuff that only multiplies Power Attack damage to stuff that only multiplies total weapon damage.  Combat Brute will not add on to the weapon multipliers because it's not a weapon multiplier: It's a Power Attack multiplier.  Same thing for Leap Attack.  Leap Attack and Combat Brute are not weapon multipliers.  They are Power Attack multipliers.  They don't combine the same way and thus need to be calculated separately.


Biggest thing first: The lance has the wording "A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount."  If you're going to use Leap From the Saddle, it doesn't look like you'll be getting the bonus damage from the lance or Spirited Charge since you're no longer on the mount.



So unless you actually can be treated as being mounted while using Leap From the Saddle to trigger Battle Jump then you pretty much need to stop right there because the trick you're trying to do isn't supported by the rules.

If you can tweak the rules such that you're still treated as being mounted while benefiting from Leap From the Saddle and Battle Jump, then read on.



Looking further through your equipment, you've got the Riding Boots' effect wrong.  They only function to improve a Lance's critical multiplier to x4, which means you have to crit.  The exact wording is:

"In addition, if
the wearer has the Spirited Charge feat, any charge attacks
she makes while mounted and wielding a lance deal ×4
damage on a critical hit, instead of the normal ×3."

In short, it's not going to do what you want it to.  I assume you'll be keeping the boots on since they're generally understood to grant Ride-by Attack and a bonus to Ride checks, so if you want to see what a crit would look like with this setup I can provide the math.

Along those lines, note that the DMG2 version of Riding Boots has the Ride bonus as an untyped +4.  The Magic Item Compendium version, however, has them as a +5 competence.  The bonus to Ride checks provided by Halfling Outrider is also a competence bonus, so only the best one of those would apply.  Usually the rule is the most recent printing of an item or spell, etc, is the one that should be used, and the MiC version is the most recent.  Check with your DM to see which version of the boots you'll be using.

Now that I know exactly how you plan to do the charge, I have to tell you that Leap Attack won't trigger.  LA requires you to move 10 feet horizontally as part of a jump action, and then land in a square that threatens an opponent you wish to attack.  I see no way you'll be meeting the jump or 10 foot move requirement since you're not even making a jump check to move much less moving 10 feet horizontally with a jump since you're dismounting from a medium creature and landing in an adjacent square to it.  The first diagonal is treated as a 5 foot move, so a diagonal dismount won't work either.  The only jump check you're entitled to make is part of Battle Jump, and that's simply to lower the damage you take from falling.  I recommend the Landing armor enhancement from MiC page 12 to counter any falling damage of 60 feet or less.

Combat Brute's Momentum Swing maneuver is going to be interesting to trigger.  If you're triggering Battle Jump the first round via dismounting, that means your mount is usually at least 10 feet in the air since you have to drop from a height of at least 5 feet above your opponent.  Your use of Snatch won't work because one of the prerequisites is being Huge or larger, which your wyrmling is not.  Unless you can ignore the prerequisites of course, which you haven't noted either way.  You've noted that your mount has perfect maneuverability, which is a bit surprising given that gold wyrmlings normally have poor.  But, if it is truly prefect then you might have the option of dismounting and making the attack, then your mount can move down low enough for you to mount it again and then it can fly up high enough to perform another Battle Jump and thus you can get another charge in the next round.

Another thing to note is the interaction between Combat Brute and Leap Attack.  It's a bit ambiguous whether Combat Brute merely modifies Power Attack damage (so that it still counts as a normal use of Power Attack) or that it's making it a non-normal use of Power Attack.  The reason this is notable is because the Leap Attack description says "...you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat."  It might come up if you can use Leap Attack as you'd like to, so you have to chat with your DM about it to make sure of how it actually interacts.

The good news with Combat Brute is it can be interpreted that it will work the round after a charge, including on other charges.  So long as you continue to make charges each round, it seems you can continue getting the extra Combat Brute damage each round after the first.

However, remember that you're still trading accuracy for damage.  The more damage you do, the more accuracy is going to be important since every time you lower your accuracy by 1 point it's going to effectively be a 5% damage reduction.  You might get a better bang for your buck with Shock Trooper.  I know I've mentioned it already, but it really is a great feat since you don't have to worry about losing accuracy anymore and can do a full Power Attack.  If I had the full stats of your character I could run them through a spreadsheet to see what your average damage would be for the Combat Brute vs Shock Trooper setups.

Be wary of the wording in Leap From the Saddle: "just as if the character were making a charge."  It's a little too ambiguous and could mean the action was actually treated as a charge for all purposes, or that it's simply as if it were a charge in that it grants a +2 bonus to attack but a -2 to AC, but nothing else to go along with a charge.  So long as you qualify for Battle Jump though, it should be fine.

Last, but not least, the Gloryborn weapon template from DMG2 page 277 might be useful to you.  A weapon it's applied to does an extra 1 damage on a charge, which will get multiplied thanks to your build.  For 600g, it's a great investment.

If anything I've gone through is different than your interpretation, could you please go over it in detail?  I've provided links to the feats and such, so you should be able to go through them thoroughly.

Until I know exactly what you guys have ruled works or doesn't work, I don't think there's much I can really go over.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 05:04:26 PM by Jackinthegreen »

Offline Lunarambling

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Re: Help with Mounted Charging Build
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2013, 07:18:45 PM »
Wow. I should stop making characters while sleepless and heavily medicated.

Ok. So it looks like I should just outright drop Battle Jump, Leap Attack and Combat Brute. I am going to go through all the stuff you provided again and see what I can come up with.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Help with Mounted Charging Build
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2013, 07:46:58 PM »
If the DM lets you ripe unique Weapons, Manyfang Dagger & Knight's Sword have lovely additions.

The Manyfang ability is quadruple damage and you don't have to charge anyone for it either. Honestly pretty good as a Large Dagger, because you can THF with it as is. But ripping it onto a Lance is nice and dirty. A Knight's Sword deals double damage while charging making it a typical booster. You can also stash a Wand of Rhino's Rush in a Wandhilt too.

Valorous Manyfang Knight's Lance with Spirited Charge/Riding Boots & Rhino's Rush comes out to x10 damage.
Pretty deadly, and you haven't even gotten me started yet.

Read the second post's Charging section.

Offline nijineko

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Re: Help with Mounted Charging Build
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2013, 11:52:08 PM »
I was under the impression that when you got the multipliers you basically minused 1, then added them to get the new number like so:

Battle Jump x2+Valorous x4=x5 + x2 for Lance=x6 + x4 from Spirited Charge with teh Riding boots= x9? Rosco is riding a Wyrmling Gold Dragon with a speed of 220(Perfect), Hover, Wingover, Flyby Attack, Ride-by Attack, etc, so pretty sure he should be able to strafe his opponents more often than not, so then add Combat Brute x3 to get x11 total.

So TOTAL damage x11. Plus the PA Damage, prior to that x11 would be x4 due to Leap Attack and a Two Handed Weapon.

no, iirc, it's more like you divide any multiplier after the first in half, then add it on.

Offline Scottzar

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Re: Help with Mounted Charging Build
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2013, 01:14:19 AM »
Wow what.
Multipliers in D&D are really simple.

Basically, a multiplier isn't something you multiply with. It's a base X1 + a number of extra sets of the damage. When collecting multiple multipliers, you just get a single base X1 + all the extra sets of damage.

Hence the multiplier would be 1 +1 (BJ) + 1 (Valorous) +1 (lance) + 1 (spirited charge) +1 (riding boots).

This is basic stuff, how do you not know it?

Where are you getting the multiplier from combat brute? It doesn't multiply anything.
Assume that any rules statements I make are under full RAW.
Common sense, game balance, or an enjoyable experience need not apply.

Offline Lunarambling

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Re: Help with Mounted Charging Build
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2013, 12:12:59 AM »
Wow what.
Multipliers in D&D are really simple.

Basically, a multiplier isn't something you multiply with. It's a base X1 + a number of extra sets of the damage. When collecting multiple multipliers, you just get a single base X1 + all the extra sets of damage.

Hence the multiplier would be 1 +1 (BJ) + 1 (Valorous) +1 (lance) + 1 (spirited charge) +1 (riding boots).

This is basic stuff, how do you not know it?

Where are you getting the multiplier from combat brute? It doesn't multiply anything.

First, thank you for being kind of condescending. That bit is extra helpful.

Second, can you please provide where each item add +1? From what I have read thus far, that doesn't seem to be how it works. And Combat Brute has an ability to multiple PA damage if you meet certain requirements.

Offline Scottzar

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Re: Help with Mounted Charging Build
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2013, 01:31:05 AM »
Technically the multipliers are RIDINGBOOT-SPIRITEDCHARGE-LANCE X4 + 1 (BJ) +1 (Valorous) = X6.

I really wish I didn't have to address that combat brute comment, but I guess you really are illiterate.
Quote
Momentum Swing: To use this maneuver, you must charge a foe in the first round, and you must make an attack using your Power Attack feat in the second round. The penalty you take on your attack roll must be -5 or worse. Your attacks during the second round gain a bonus equal to your attack roll penalty x 1-1/2, or x 3 if you're using a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands. For instance, if you choose to take a -6 penalty on your attack roll, you can deal an extra 9 points of damage, or an extra 18 points if you're using a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands.

Now there's two interpretations for this. My way (which is technically correct, but retarded), and the common way (which is logical and consistent with given errata on other feats)

Most people would say that this makes your second turn PA change from 1/2 to 1.5/3, which given the way other feats are officially interpreted (e.g. leap attack) is equivalent to +50%. Leap attack, as of it's errata, add's +100%. So you have 250% * 2(2H weapon) * any multipliers from misc, in your case 5*6 multiplier on any PA AB decrease you take.

Technically, however, it gives you a separate unnamed bonus. This means in your case you have (2*2 + 3)*6 or 7*6 on your PA AB decrease.



Of course I am going to be condescending to you. You are arguing with me despite the fact that you haven't read the basic rules of what you intend to do, nor even the most basic and essential rules of core (i.e. numerical logic used by game calculations).
Assume that any rules statements I make are under full RAW.
Common sense, game balance, or an enjoyable experience need not apply.

Offline nijineko

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Re: Help with Mounted Charging Build
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2013, 01:50:27 AM »
Second, can you please provide where each item add +1? From what I have read thus far, that doesn't seem to be how it works. And Combat Brute has an ability to multiple PA damage if you meet certain requirements.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm

scroll down to "multiplying".

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Help with Mounted Charging Build
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2013, 03:39:57 AM »
Technically the multipliers are RIDINGBOOT-SPIRITEDCHARGE-LANCE X4 + 1 (BJ) +1 (Valorous) = X6.

Note that the Riding Boots only give a modifier on crits, not weapon damage as normal like charging with a lance would in the first place.
Looking further through your equipment, you've got the Riding Boots' effect wrong.  They only function to improve a Lance's critical multiplier to x4, which means you have to crit.  The exact wording is:

"In addition, if the wearer has the Spirited Charge feat, any charge attacks she makes while mounted and wielding a lance deal ×4 damage on a critical hit, instead of the normal ×3."

If you wish to verify that, the rules can be found in the DMG2 on page 270 or the MiC page 121.  And yes, I did originally mistake the Riding Boots for working as he wanted, but I wanted to make sure of them in case they weren't as what as advertised.


I was under the impression that when you got the multipliers you basically minused 1, then added them to get the new number like so:
no, iirc, it's more like you divide any multiplier after the first in half, then add it on.

As per the rules here, the correct interpretation is -1 if multiple multiples for the same thing are involved.  THus, a -1 on a +2 is a +1.  A bit of clarification on that can be found here.  Multiplying for abstract values is essentially additive (so a x2 is treated more like a +100%, and further x2's only add the +100% to the original value of 200% damage, hence why 2 x2's are treated as x3 since it becomes 300% damage.  x1 is 100%, x2 200%, and so forth).  Niji ninja'd me, but hopefully my example should provide a better explanation than just the rules alone.

Leap Attack thus becomes a bit odd to work with since it says "...+100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat."  Since it's already been shown not to work on a mounted charge build though (unless the mount itself charges and has the feat, or if it's a Centaur), it's probably better to make a new thread about it.

Having linked to the multiplying rules and reread them, I'm pretty sure Charging wouldn't be multiplied.  It's going with the rule stating "Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied."
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 03:56:05 AM by Jackinthegreen »

Offline Cyclone Joker

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Re: Help with Mounted Charging Build
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2013, 05:29:55 AM »
Why has nobody brought up Water Orc and Headlong Rush? Another X2 is always good, especially with such downright laughable prereqs. +4 strength on top of that is far, far too good to pass up.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Help with Mounted Charging Build
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2013, 12:31:49 PM »
If you wish to verify that, the rules can be found in the DMG2 on page 270 or the MiC page 121.  And yes, I did originally mistake the Riding Boots for working as he wanted, but I wanted to make sure of them in case they weren't as what as advertised.
You know, you're not the only one that missed that.

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Help with Mounted Charging Build
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2013, 01:35:48 PM »
If you wish to verify that, the rules can be found in the DMG2 on page 270 or the MiC page 121.  And yes, I did originally mistake the Riding Boots for working as he wanted, but I wanted to make sure of them in case they weren't as what as advertised.
You know, you're not the only one that missed that.

I wanted to head off the "you missed it too!" at the pass.

Why has nobody brought up Water Orc and Headlong Rush? Another X2 is always good, especially with such downright laughable prereqs. +4 strength on top of that is far, far too good to pass up.

Considering the original character was going to be a Halfling Outrider, there didn't seem to be any open discussion for races.  It still might not be if the character has to be small to fit on a medium mount.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 01:38:49 PM by Jackinthegreen »

Offline nijineko

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Re: Help with Mounted Charging Build
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2013, 11:48:29 PM »
I was under the impression that when you got the multipliers you basically minused 1, then added them to get the new number like so:
no, iirc, it's more like you divide any multiplier after the first in half, then add it on.
quite so, quite so, though you may have noticed that when i next replied before your quote, i linked the correct rules. ^^ i didn't have time to look up the rule the first time i replied, and as usual, the off-the-cuff-from-recall-and-i'm-not-good-at-nonvisualized-math response is lacking.