Author Topic: Mundane infiltrator/subterfuge-type character  (Read 12213 times)

Offline Shadowstalker

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Mundane infiltrator/subterfuge-type character
« on: March 20, 2013, 11:42:39 AM »
I'm building a character for a three-player game, with a lot of solo action expected, since not everyone will be at every gaming session.

We're a stealth- and subterfuge-focused group - after all, why risk your own hide against the bandits when you can trick or convince another group of thugs into doing it for you, then come back and loot them when they've neutralised each other? Or to convince a knightly order to eliminate a red dragon for you. Same thing, but on a bigger scale, when you're dealing with armies, nations and infernal hordes. Essentially, we're not playing as the foot-soldiers, wading deep into dungeons to confront threats, hoping to not roll a 1 on a save-or-suck spell and hoping that the enemy doesn't roll too many crits. If we're rolling saves or attack rolls, we've made a mistake. Rather, we're the chessmasters and puppeteers, playing individuals and factions off against each other to achieve our goals, using others as pawns in the game rather than being those pawns ourselves, as so often happens in D&D.

To that end, I'm planning an infiltrator-type character, focusing on mundane disguises (True Seeing being a common enough threat) and nonmagical abilities (good Will saves, Mind Blanks, etc. being common at high levels). She is a capable-enough thief (after all, even if you've infiltrated an enemy's lair, you still need to be able to unlock chests in order to plant evidence against him) but her main specialties are subterfuge and trickery - Disguise and Bluff to get in and out of places, Forgery to mislead and confuse the organisation you're trying to manipulate (not relying on a cohort for this - sometimes, you need to do it on the spot), Diplomacy (to get individuals onto your side), Gather Information (because sometimes scrying often isn't the best option), Sense Motive to thwart counterespionage attempts, and Leadership to build an effective spy network.

Obviously it's hard to sneak around and maintain a disguise while carrying a truckload of magical items, so I've concentrated on acquiring inherent bonuses to stats, as well as maintaining a slush fund to run my undercover operations.

Sources include all WOTC-published 3.5 material except Dragon and Dungeon magazines.

So, here's the build at level 20:

Name: Simmi
Race/Sex: Human/Female
Alignment: CG
Abilities (including inherent bonuses increases from character level): Str 13/Dex 20/Con 14/Int 20/Wis 14/Cha 26
Classes: Martial Rogue 10/Spymaster 3/Marshal 1/Exemplar 4/Swordsage 2
Feats: Able Learner, Improved Initiative, Skill Focus (Bluff), Skill Focus (Disguise), Jack of All Trades, Improved Unarmed Strike, Deceitful, Versatile Unarmed Strike, Leadership, Martial Stance (Dance of the Spider), Darkstalker, Power Attack, Savvy Rogue, Improved Toughness, Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Open Minded x3
Flaws: Vulnerable, Noncombatant
Traits: Aggressive
Class features: Trapfinding, Evasion, Quick Fingers, Trap Sense +2, Uncanny Dodge, Cover Identity, Undetectable Alignment, Quick Change, Scrying Defence, Uncanny Bravery, Skill Mastery (Bluff, Disguise, Forgery, Hide, Move Silently, Search, Climb, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Spot, Sense Motive, Gather Information, Balance), Minor Aura (Motivate Charisma), Skill Artistry (Disguise, Bluff), Lend Talent, Sustaining Presence, Quick to Act +1, Discipline Focus (Shadow Hand), Magic Aura, Sneak Attack +1d6, Swordsage AC bonus (Wis to AC)
Skills/Skill Tricks: Balance 5 ranks/Bluff 23 ranks/Climb 9 ranks/Diplomacy 23 ranks/Disable Device 21 ranks/Disguise 23 ranks/Forgery 23 ranks/Gather Information 23 ranks/Hide 23 ranks/Listen 23 ranks/Move Silently 23 ranks/Open Lock 9 ranks/Search 19 ranks/Sense Motive 23 ranks/Spot 23 ranks/Assume Quirk (skill trick)
Manoeuvres/Stances: Cloak of Deception (SH 2), Mountain Hammer (SD 2), Bonecrusher (SD 3), Elder Mountain Hammer (SD 5), Shadow Stride (SH 5), Baffling Defence (SS 2), Crushing Vise (SD 6) Step of the Wind (SS 1 stance), Dance of the Spider (SH 3 stance - acquired via feat), Step of the Dancing Moth (SH 5 stance)
BAB: +13
Saves: Fort +17 (including Sustaining Presence)/Ref +21/Will +15
HP: 135 (including Improved Toughness bonus)
AC: 15 (10 -1 flaw -1 trait +5 Dex +2 Wis)

This gives me a Disguise check result of 62 (using Motivate Charisma and a Disguise Kit) when Taking 12 (rather than taking 10, due to Savvy Rogue), or 64 when acting in character, and a Bluff check of 58 when Taking 12 - without any magic that can be dispelled, subject to True Seeing or other divinations and which function in an AMF, and which don't rely on my character carrying around any easily-recognised magic items, or a spell-component pouch (which would immediately brand her as a spellcaster) or a focus (which would also brand her as a spellcaster). She is also a decent sneak (maxed Hide and Move Silently), can climb across a slippery ceiling (able to make a DC 34 Climb check) or over liquids, can open Good locks (DC 30, -2 penalty to check for improvised tools) and use Mountain Hammer/Elder Mountain Hammer to get through anything she can't pick, find and disable all traps by taking 12, and has a 50' teleport-type effect (Shadow Stride) useable almost at will, as an extraordinary ability.

Level-by-level:

1: MRog 1. Str 10/Dex 16/Con 10/Int 16/Wis 10/Cha 16. Trapfinding (class feature). Skill Focus (Disguise). Able Learner (human bonus feat). Improved Initiative (MRog bonus feat). Skill Focus (Bluff) (bonus feat from flaw). Jack of All Trades (bonus feat from flaw). Aggressive (trait). Noncombatant (flaw). Vulnerable (flaw). Saves Fort +0/Ref +5/Will +0. BAB +0. 6HP. Skills Bluff 4/Diplomacy 4/Disguise 4/Forgery 4/Gather Info 4/Hide 4/Listen 4/Move Silently 4/Open Lock 4/Search 4/Sense Motive 4/Spot 4.

2: MRog 2. Evasion (MRog class feature). Improved Unarmed Strike (MRog feat). Saves Fort +0/Ref +6/Will +0. BAB +1. 9HP. Skills Bluff 5/Diplomacy 5/Disguise 5/Forgery 5/Gather Info 5/Hide 5/Listen 5/Move Silently 5/Open Lock 5/Search 5/Sense Motive 5/Spot 5.

3: MRog 3. Quick Fingers (MRog ACF - Dungeonscape). Deceitful. Saves Fort +1/Ref +6/Will +1. BAB +2. 13HP. Skills Bluff 6/Diplomacy 6/Disguise 6/Forgery 6/Gather Info 6/Hide 6/Listen 6/Move Silently 6/Open Lock 6/Search 6/Sense Motive 6/Spot 6.

4: MRog 4. Str 10/Dex 16/Con 10/Int 16/Wis 10/Cha 17 (bonus point to Cha). Uncanny Dodge (MRog class feature). Versatile Unarmed Strike (MRog feat). Saves Fort +1/Ref +7/Will +1. BAB +3. 16HP. Skills Bluff 7/Diplomacy 7/Disguise 7/Forgery 7/Gather Info 7/Hide 7/Listen 7/Move Silently 7/Open Lock 7/Search 7/Sense Motive 7/Spot 7.

Breakpoint for Open Lock - now able to disarm Good locks by Taking 20.

5: MRog 5. Saves Fort +1/Ref +7/Will +1. BAB +3. 20HP. Skills Bluff 8/Diplomacy 8/Disable Device 1/Disguise 8/Forgery 8/Gather Info 8/Hide 8/Listen 8/Move Silently 8/Open Lock 7/Search 8/Sense Motive 8/Spot 8.

6: MRog 5/Spy 1. Cover Identity (Spy class feature). Undetectable Alignment (Spy class feature). Leadership. Saves Fort +1/Ref +9/Will +1. BAB +3. 23HP. Skills Bluff 9/Diplomacy 9/Disable Device 2/Disguise 9/Forgery 9/Gather Info 9/Hide 9/Listen 9/Move Silently 9/Open Lock 7/Search 9/Sense Motive 9/Spot 9.

7: MRog 5/Spy 2. Quick Change (Spy class feature). Scrying Defence (Spy class feature). Saves Fort +1/Ref +10/Will +1. BAB +4. 27HP. Skills Bluff 10/Diplomacy 10/Disable Device 3/Disguise 10/Forgery 10/Gather Info 10/Hide 10/Listen 10/Move Silently 10/Open Lock 7/Search 10/Sense Motive 10/Spot 10.

8: MRog 6/Spy 2. Str 10/Dex 16/Con 10/Int 16/Wis 10/Cha 18 (bonus point to Cha). Trap Sense +1 (MRog class feature). Martial Study (Cloak of Deception) (MRog feat). Saves Fort +2/Ref +11/Will +2. BAB +5. 30HP. Skills Bluff 11/Diplomacy 11/Disable Device 4/Disguise 11/Forgery 11/Gather Info 11/Hide 11/Listen 11/Move Silently 11/Open Lock 7/Search 11/Sense Motive 11/Spot 11.

9: MRog 7/Spy 2. Darkstalker. Saves Fort +2/Ref +11/Will +2. BAB +6. 34HP. Skills Bluff 12/Diplomacy 12/Disable Device 5/Disguise 12/Forgery 12/Gather Info 12/Hide 12/Listen 12/Move Silently 12/Open Lock 7/Search 12/Sense Motive 12/Spot 12.

10: MRog 8/Spy 2. Uncanny Bravery (MRog ACF - Draconomicon). Martial Stance (Dance of the Spider) (MRog feat). Saves Fort +2/Ref +12/Will +2. BAB +7. 37HP. Skills Bluff 13/Diplomacy 13/Disable Device 6/Disguise 13/Forgery 13/Gather Info 13/Hide 13/Listen 13/Move Silently 13/Open Lock 7/Search 13/Sense Motive 13/Spot 13.

11: MRog 9/Spy 2. Saves Fort +3/Ref +12/Will +3. BAB +7. 41HP. Skills Bluff 14/Diplomacy 14/Disable Device 7/Disguise 14/Forgery 14/Gather Info 14/Hide 14/Listen 14/Move Silently 14/Open Lock 7/Search 14/Sense Motive 14/Spot 14.

12: MRog 10/Spy 2. Str 10/Dex 16/Con 10/Int 16/Wis 10/Cha 19 (bonus point to Cha). Trap Sense +2 (MRog class feature). Skill Mastery (Bluff, Disguise, Forgery, Hide, Move Silently, Search) (MRog class feature). Martial Study (Mountain Hammer) (MRog feat). Savvy Rogue. Saves Fort +3/Ref +13/Will +3. BAB +8. 44HP. Skills Bluff 15/Diplomacy 15/Disable Device 8/Disguise 15/Forgery 15/Gather Info 15/Hide 15/Listen 15/Move Silently 15/Open Lock 7/Search 15/Sense Motive 15/Spot 15.

Breakpoint - now able to break through Amazing doors and locks using Mountain Hammer with an unarmed strike.

13: MRog 10/Spy 2/Mshl 1. Skill Focus (Diplomacy) (Mshl class feature). Minor Aura (Motivate Charisma) (Mshl class feature). Saves Fort +5/Ref +13/Will +5. BAB +8. 49HP. Skills Bluff 16/Diplomacy 16/Disable Device 8/Disguise 16/Forgery 15/Gather Info 15/Hide 16/Listen 15/Move Silently 16/Open Lock 7/Search 16/Sense Motive 16/Spot 16.

Expected wealth at level 13 = 110000gp. Expected wealth at level 14 = 150000. Purchase Tome of Mental Prowess +4, or 4x Wish/Miracle/Reality Revision, during this level.

14: MRog 10/Spy 2/Mshl 1/Exm 1. Str 10/Dex 16/Con 10/Int 20/Wis 10/Cha 19 (+4 Inherent bonus to Int). Skill Artistry (Disguise) (Exm class feature). Skill Mastery (Climb, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot) (Exm class feature). Saves Fort +5/Ref +13/Will +7. BAB +8. 52HP. Skills Bluff 17/Diplomacy 17/Disable Device 8/Disguise 17/Forgery 17/Gather Info 17/Hide 17/Listen 17/Move Silently 17/Open Lock 7/Search 17/Sense Motive 17/Spot 17.

Breakpoint for Search - now able to find Level 9 magic traps by Taking 12. Breakpoint for Climb - now able to climb an uneven surface by Taking 12 and using Dance of the Spider.

15: MRog 10/Spy 2/Mshl 1/Exm 2. Lend Talent (Exm class feature). Skill Mastery (Gather Information) (Exm class feature). Open Minded. Saves Fort +5/Ref +13/Will +8. BAB +9. 56HP. Skills Bluff 18/Diplomacy 18/Disable Device 17/Disguise 18/Forgery 18/Gather Info 18/Hide 18/Listen 18/Move Silently 18/Open Lock 7/Search 17/Sense Motive 18/Spot 18.

Breakpoint for Disable Device - now able to disable Level 9 magic traps using normal thieves' tools by Taking 12.
Expected wealth at level 15 = 200000gp. Expected wealth at level 16 = 260000. Purchase Tome of Leadership and Influence +5, or 5x Wish/Miracle/Reality Revision, during this level.

16: MRog 10/Spy 2/Mshl 1/Exm 3. Str 10/Dex 16/Con 10/Int 20/Wis 10/Cha 25 (+5 Inherent bonus to Cha, bonus point to Cha). Skill Mastery (Balance) (Exm class feature). Open Minded (Exm feat). Saves Fort +6/Ref +14/Will +8. BAB +10. 59HP. Skills Balance 5/Bluff 19/Diplomacy 19/Disable Device 17/Disguise 19/Forgery 19/Gather Info 19/Hide 19/Listen 19/Move Silently 19/Open Lock 9/Search 17/Sense Motive 19/Spot 19. Assume Quirk (skill trick).

Breakpoint for Balance (able to balance without losing Dex bonus to AC). Breakpoint for Open Lock (able to open Good locks with improvised tools).

17: MRog 10/Spy 2/Mshl 1/Exm 4. Skill Mastery (Jump) (Exm class feature). Skill Artistry (Bluff) (Exm class feature). Sustaining Presence (Exm class feature). Saves Fort +13/Ref +14/Will +9. BAB +11. 63HP. Skills Balance 5/Bluff 20/Climb 2/Diplomacy 20/Disable Device 19/Disguise 20/Forgery 20/Gather Info 20/Hide 20/Listen 20/Move Silently 20/Open Lock 9/Search 17/Sense Motive 20/Spot 20.

Breakpoint for Disable Device (able to disarm level 9 magic traps while Taking 12, using improvised tools).
Expected wealth at level 17 = 340000gp. Expected wealth at level 18 = 440000. Purchase Manual of Gainful Exercise +3, or 3x Wish/Miracle/Reality Revision, during this level.

18: MRog 10/Spy 2/Mshl 1/Exm 4/Ssg 1. Str 13/Dex 16/Con 10/Int 20/Wis 10/Cha 25 (+3 Inherent bonus to Str). Retraining - Martial Study (Cloak of Deception) (MRog 6) replaced with Power Attack. Discipline Focus - Shadow Hand (Ssg class feature). Quick to Act +1 (Ssg class feature). Open Minded. Saves Fort +13/Ref +16/Will +11. BAB +11. 67HP. Skills Balance 5/Bluff 21/Climb 9/Diplomacy 21/Disable Device 19/Disguise 21/Forgery 21/Gather Info 21/Hide 21/Listen 21/Move Silently 21/Open Lock 9/Search 17/Sense Motive 21/Spot 21. Manouevres - Cloak of Deception (SH)/Mountain Hammer (SD), Bonecrusher (SD), Elder Mountain Hammer (SD), Shadow Stride (SH), Baffling Defence (SS). Stance - Step of the Wind (SS).

I went off the interpretation that you need to take a first-level stance with your first level of Swordsage - different groups read it in different ways, and AFAIK there's no official ruling on this. I know Bonecrusher is crap, but I needed a second Stone Dragon manouevre in order to take Elder Mountain Hammer. I didn't take the Concentration check instead of save Diamond Mind manouevres because I don't have Concentration...

Breakpoint for climb (able to climb across a slippery ceiling, using Dance of the Spider). Also gain teleportation-like ability as Extraordinary ability with Shadow Stride.
Expected wealth at level 18 = 440000gp. Expected wealth at level 19 = 580000. Purchase Manual of Quickness of Action +4, or 4x Wish/Miracle/Reality Revision, during this level.

19: MRog 10/Spy 3/Mshl 1/Exm 4/Ssg 1. Str 13/Dex 20/Con 10/Int 20/Wis 10/Cha 25 (+4 Inherent bonus to Dex). Retraining - Martial Study (Mountain Hammer) (MRog 10) replaced with Improved Toughness. Magic Aura (Spy class feature). Sneak Attack +1d6 (Spy class feature). Saves Fort +14/Ref +20/Will +12. BAB +12. 90HP. Skills Balance 8/Bluff 22/Climb 9/Diplomacy 22/Disable Device 19/Disguise 22/Forgery 22/Gather Info 22/Hide 22/Listen 22/Move Silently 22/Open Lock 9/Search 18/Sense Motive 22/Spot 22.

Expected wealth at level 19 = 580000gp. Expected wealth at level 20 = 760000. Purchase Manual of Bodily Health +4 and Tome of Understanding +4, or 8x Wish/Miracle/Reality Revision, during this level.

20: MRog 10/Spy 3/Mshl 1/Exm 4/Ssg 2. Str 13/Dex 20/Con 14/Int 20/Wis 14/Cha 26 (+4 Inherent bonuses to Con and Wis, bonus point to Cha). AC bonus (wisdom to AC) (Ssg class feature). Saves Fort +17/Ref +21/Will +15. BAB +13. 135HP. Skills Balance 8/Bluff 23/Climb 9/Diplomacy 23/Disable Device 19/Disguise 23/Forgery 23/Gather Info 23/Hide 23/Listen 23/Move Silently 23/Open Lock 9/Search 20/Sense Motive 23/Spot 23. Manoeuvre - Crushing Vise (SD). Stance - Step of the Dancing Moth (SH).

Any comments or suggestions?
« Last Edit: March 21, 2013, 03:02:55 AM by Shadowstalker »

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Mundane infiltrator/subterfuge-type character
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2013, 05:38:40 PM »
Have you considered the Changeling race? Or would that not work for your intent?  They have a rogue ACF that trades trapfinding for more skill points among other things.  Being a Changeling will get you a +10 disguise check when you're using the Minor Change Shape racial ability.

Have you looked at the Factotum class in Dungeonscape?  It's basically rogue+, though I suppose you might be turned away since it does get a small selection of SLAs that do require material components (though Eschew Materials can fix that, but for so few spells it might not be worth it).  Go up to 3rd level though and you get Int to all your Dex and Str ability and skill checks. 

Offline Shadowstalker

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Re: Mundane infiltrator/subterfuge-type character
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2013, 08:54:04 PM »
Have you considered the Changeling race? Or would that not work for your intent?  They have a rogue ACF that trades trapfinding for more skill points among other things.  Being a Changeling will get you a +10 disguise check when you're using the Minor Change Shape racial ability.

Have you looked at the Factotum class in Dungeonscape?  It's basically rogue+, though I suppose you might be turned away since it does get a small selection of SLAs that do require material components (though Eschew Materials can fix that, but for so few spells it might not be worth it).  Go up to 3rd level though and you get Int to all your Dex and Str ability and skill checks.

Changeling wouldn't work, as it is Eberron-only; also, trapfinding is kind of important when you're operating alone, and the target is in a locked, trapped chest. The disguise check is undone by True Seeing; even if True Seeing doesn't let someone know who I truly am, the fact that it sees through the Minor Shape Change part of the disguise would at least let them know that a disguise is in use.

Factotum doesn't work because I'd be losing out on two skill points per level (pumping Int doesn't really work if I'm going for a Cha-based build that includes Marshal) as well as 3+Int Skill Mastery choices, as well as Savvy Rogue - not good if I'm trying to increase my minimum skill check in a large number of skills.

Offline ImperatorK

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Re: Mundane infiltrator/subterfuge-type character
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2013, 09:26:07 PM »
Changeling wouldn't work, as it is Eberron-only;
Actually, it's not. It got reprinted in MM3, it can be used in any setting that has both humans and doppelgangers.

Quote
The disguise check is undone by True Seeing; even if True Seeing doesn't let someone know who I truly am, the fact that it sees through the Minor Shape Change part of the disguise would at least let them know that a disguise is in use.
Then you won't use it when magical identification is probable. But just because it might not be useful in some situations doesn't mean it's useless. It's still a good ability and can be used against enemy groups without magical support.
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Offline Shadowstalker

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Re: Mundane infiltrator/subterfuge-type character
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2013, 09:44:45 PM »

Actually, it's not. It got reprinted in MM3, it can be used in any setting that has both humans and doppelgangers.

But the ACF is. (we use the non-setting-specific splatbooks, plus FR). In any case, even with the ACF, a changeling only gets 1 more skill point per level than a human, loses the feat, would take a -2 penalty to disguise as a non-changeling in almost all situations, and would still need another way to get Trapfinding.

Quote
Then you won't use it when magical identification is probable. But just because it might not be useful in some situations doesn't mean it's useless. It's still a good ability and can be used against enemy groups without magical support.

Fair point. But, against less-challenging groups where true seeing isn't a possibility, a sky-high Disguise and Bluff check, together with Quick Change, should fool them anyway.

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Mundane infiltrator/subterfuge-type character
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2013, 09:45:58 PM »
Definitely spymaster is great... Try to get Deep Cover to avoid divinations from ratting you out

if you're using the Song and Silence version, there's actually a 5 level version in a 3.5 book (I'm AFB, so someone else will have to tell you where)

I'd avoid savvy rogue feat, there's better feats that help more.

if you can use custom or semi-custom items...
Buy a bunch of Chronocharms, you can wear infinite number, as long as they are different. Check out the 'adding additional effects' stuff in the DMG and Magic Item Compendium, for ways to create different chronocharms.

you can buy a bunch of cheap ones, that each give you a 'x' bonus to a skill. Its cheaper to buy more at a low bonus. You can do this for saves, and AC too.

edit: found em... Spymaster is 7 levels in Complete Adventurer and the 5 level one I thought of is the Zhentarim Spy, in the Player's Guide to Faerun, but it is evil-only.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 09:57:18 PM by zook1shoe »
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Offline Shadowstalker

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Re: Mundane infiltrator/subterfuge-type character
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2013, 10:18:58 PM »
Definitely spymaster is great... Try to get Deep Cover to avoid divinations from ratting you out

if you're using the Song and Silence version, there's actually a 5 level version in a 3.5 book (I'm AFB, so someone else will have to tell you where)

Unfortunately, that costs 7 levels of Spymaster and only works while using a cover identity. Also, the most immediate threat - Detect Thoughts - has an easy Will save.

We're using the Complete Adventurer version, since that supersedes the Song and Silence version.

Quote
I'd avoid savvy rogue feat, there's better feats that help more.

Any suggestions? +2 to almost every skill check seems pretty good, considering I've had 3 feats to spend on Open Minded...

Quote
if you can use custom or semi-custom items...
Buy a bunch of Chronocharms, you can wear infinite number, as long as they are different. Check out the 'adding additional effects' stuff in the DMG and Magic Item Compendium, for ways to create different chronocharms.

you can buy a bunch of cheap ones, that each give you a 'x' bonus to a skill. Its cheaper to buy more at a low bonus. You can do this for saves, and AC too.

Magic items aren't a good option, because it means having to incorporate them into each disguise I take on (why's the beggar wearing expensive jewellery/why's the courtier wearing a necklace that looks like it's been fished from the sewer/why do these seven people all seem to be wearing the same amulet, but only one of them's here at any given time) and justify them in each situation. Which leaves me with a lot of spare change...

I've essentially spent the expected wealth-by-level on inherent bonuses, either via Wish/Reality Revision/Miracle or tomes/manuals - Intelligence +4 at level 14, Charisma +5 at level 16, Strength +3 at level 17 (to allow me to Power Attack for an effective CDG), Dexterity +4 at level 19 and Constitution and Wisdom +4 at level 20.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Mundane infiltrator/subterfuge-type character
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2013, 10:27:25 PM »
Races of Eberron is not actually an Eberron-specific book (despite the name).  You can tell because the cover and interior formats are quite different from the Eberron books, and match the Races Of series instead.
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Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Mundane infiltrator/subterfuge-type character
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2013, 10:27:50 PM »
I assume the Zhentarim Spy is out of the question? Being evil.

Chronocharms are a single necklace, make it out of copper and it'll look much less expensive. But I understand the worries though ;)

yeah, I guess that +2 to all skills is good in this case, sorry about that
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Offline Shadowstalker

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Re: Mundane infiltrator/subterfuge-type character
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2013, 10:37:29 PM »
I assume the Zhentarim Spy is out of the question? Being evil.

Worth considering, especially since there's nothing inherently evil about the class abilities, and is only designated as such due to the word 'Zhentarim' (i.e. fluff text). Still, no Quick Change or Magic Aura (useful for hiding magic items when I'm carrying them), and I'd have to find two levels of something else to give up...

Quote
Chronocharms are a single necklace, make it out of copper and it'll look much less expensive. But I understand the worries though ;)

Make it out of copper and it'll look out-of-place if you're trying to impersonate a noble, a courtier, a military officer or a wealthy merchant. It's one of the problems when you're dealing with disguises - how to hide all your equipment! You can use Magic Aura to make a magic helmet look mundane, but it's still a helmet and would look out of place on a civilian!

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yeah, I guess that +2 to all skills is good in this case, sorry about that

I agree that it's mediocre for most of the other rogue high-level abilities, though!

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Re: Mundane infiltrator/subterfuge-type character
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2013, 11:24:52 PM »
Glamored equipment.

Conceal a Belt of Many Pockets under your cloths.  Store any incongruous equipment in it.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 11:31:56 PM by Keldar »

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Mundane infiltrator/subterfuge-type character
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2013, 11:36:37 PM »
I prefer possum pouch
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Offline nijineko

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Re: Mundane infiltrator/subterfuge-type character
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2013, 11:45:12 PM »
mindspy is another useful prestige, though perhaps not with your specific build.

Offline Shadowstalker

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Re: Mundane infiltrator/subterfuge-type character
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2013, 12:58:48 AM »
Glamored equipment.

Too easy to see past at higher levels. It only takes one person to see past it, tap on your armour-which-looks-like-clothing and your whole disguise is blown. Without glamered equipment, even if someone with an incredibly high Spot check sees past your disguise, you can still use Bluff and Diplomacy to convince everyone else that the person calling you a fake is crazy.

Quote
Conceal a Belt of Many Pockets under your cloths.  Store any incongruous equipment in it.

Useful for some missions, but I wouldn't be able to bring it along everywhere (could probably be left with other party members, or a cohort). I don't have enough skill points to spare for Sleight of Hand, and some costumes just don't allow a Belt of Many Pockets to be hidden.

Also, in my current build, I don't get Magic Aura until level 19, but that is obviously something adjustable.

Offline Shadowstalker

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Re: Mundane infiltrator/subterfuge-type character
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2013, 03:03:37 AM »
Edited to add level-by-level build details.

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Re: Mundane infiltrator/subterfuge-type character
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2013, 06:52:48 AM »
mindspy is another useful prestige, though perhaps not with your specific build.

With 2+Int skills? Not for a skillmonkey... maybe for a dedicated telepath.

Offline gadeschaos

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Re: Mundane infiltrator/subterfuge-type character
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2013, 07:18:32 AM »
Ok maybe i'm not so used to this, but how did you get ~+30 to disguise? I can't pinpoint all the bonuses that get there :\

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Re: Mundane infiltrator/subterfuge-type character
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2013, 07:26:03 AM »
Ok maybe i'm not so used to this, but how did you get ~+30 to disguise? I can't pinpoint all the bonuses that get there :\

23 ranks + 3 (Skill Focus) + 2 (Deceitful) + 4 (Skill Artistry) + 8 (Cha) + 8 (Motivate Charisma) + 2 (disguise kit) + 12 (Take 12, with Skill Mastery and Savvy Rogue) = 62

64 when acting in character (due to Bluff synergy), 60 when a disguise kit isn't available.

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Re: Mundane infiltrator/subterfuge-type character
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2013, 07:46:33 AM »
But the ACF is.
Then don't take it? The race is still very good without the ACF. If you worry about the lost feat, don't, because changeling gives +2 Bluff (and +2 Intimidate and Sense Motive), so you don't need Skill Focus (Bluff) and you'll lose only +1.
In your situation there's simply no reason to not play a changeling.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2013, 07:50:25 AM by ImperatorK »
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Re: Mundane infiltrator/subterfuge-type character
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2013, 07:58:10 AM »
Skill Focus (Bluff) is a prerequisite for Spymaster. I'd also be taking a -2 to Disguise checks almost all the time, due to disguising as a different race. Sure, the +10 from shapeshifting compensates for this, but only when the enemy doesn't have True Seeing (and True Seeing items are fairly common at high level).

At low levels, before True Seeing becomes common, Changeling would rock, though.