Author Topic: M&M 3e Challenge  (Read 5777 times)

Offline Cyclone Joker

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M&M 3e Challenge
« on: March 23, 2013, 08:51:02 AM »
Well, I recently got M&M 3e, and was discussing it with a friend, pointed out some of the more absurd abilities, and, well, one thing lead to another, and, long story short, I was challenged to find or produce builds that met the following challenges:

PL 8-10, though up to 12 is acceptable - reliably defeat more than one top-tier Justice League1 character in 1V1
PL 10-12 that can reliably defeat more than one at once
PL 10-15 that can reliably defeat a large number at once.

While that would be easy enough, there are a few conditions:
1) No, and I quote "lolstupidhax" abilities, including, but not limited to, Duplicate, high-level Transform, some of the more egregious Immunity abuse, or "I can switch around all my PP at will." Also, Immortality is useless because being killed once is game over.
2) While devices are okay, they cannot be the core of the build(EG kickass magic sword is okay but Iron Man or Green Lantern isn't)(This was to avoid having far too much PP, so I'd assume any other such exploits aren't allowed)
3) It doesn't count if you win through weakness exploitation. No kryptonite on Supes or fire on MM.

Lower level is better. If possible, a level 10 build would be better than a level 15 on challenge 3. Also, bonus points if the character is a viable character rather than just a combat monstrosity.

I figured I'd get better results here, since I'm quite new to the system, don't have all the books, though can probably get most of them if I needed to, and I figure y'all know the system better than I do.

So, is this doable, or is 3e that much better than 2e?
____
1JLA was what was decided on because I have DCA and not Instant Heroes, and it was simpler than building more characters. If they're seriously below the Instant Heroes characters of the same level, then I guess it'd be better to use the Instant Heroes instead.

Offline Agita

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Re: M&M 3e Challenge
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2013, 09:58:13 AM »
First off, not having "all the books" is okay - there's only the one in 3e.
To what degree are you able to pick your fights? I mean this less in the vein of "kryptonite against Superman" and more in terms of "this guy has shit Perception". The whole thing obviously becomes much easier if you can gear your build and tactics to defeat a certain kind of hero (e.g. Perception range Damage powers work wonders against Batman, not so much against Supes, due to how tradeoffs work).

My first instinct, without opening the book, would be to go for Concealment and stealth, and pick up a penetrates concealment sense and a Perception attack power. Be as far away as you can still detect them (which can be very far if you also extend your sense), avoid them detecting you, and plink away with an attack that can't miss. Alternatively if you're feeling bold, attacking from surprise with an attack traded off to abysmal to hit and sky-high damage is effective too (and faster, but probably riskier since you need line of effect). This works much better on the "badass normals" like Batman than on flying bricks (who can not only tank a good number of your attacks, but also often have flight to close the distance faster than you may be comfortable with), but it's probably the most reliable tactic I can think of.
There's also a bunch of cheese you can pull with very low-ranked Perception-range powers with a lot of extras (Penetrating, Sustained, Indirect, Triggered etc) if you just turtle up and let the power do its work for you.
IIRC, the bathtub telekinetic still works as well, though I think it's become fairly expensive.

You probably guessed this already, but you want to avoid just going toe to toe in any case. The math makes that not work out well for you even with a gap of just two PLs.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 10:00:36 AM by Agita »
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Offline Cyclone Joker

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Re: M&M 3e Challenge
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2013, 10:27:18 AM »
First off, not having "all the books" is okay - there's only the one in 3e.
So there's nothing of relevance in Supernatural Handbook? Good to know, I was planning on buying it. Is a shame, though, it sounded interesting.

And I would have sworn there was an Instant Heroes book, but on second glance it's 2e.
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To what degree are you able to pick your fights? I mean this less in the vein of "kryptonite against Superman" and more in terms of "this guy has shit Perception". The whole thing obviously becomes much easier if you can gear your build and tactics to defeat a certain kind of hero (e.g. Perception range Damage powers work wonders against Batman, not so much against Supes, due to how tradeoffs work).
Unsure, to tell the truth. I got the impression it was going to mostly be against bricks like Shazam and Supes, but I don't know. As far as I can tell, the only PL15 guys are bricks and Doctor Fate, and I assume top-tier is 14 and 15, though I dunno.
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My first instinct, without opening the book, would be to go for Concealment and stealth, and pick up a penetrates concealment sense and a Perception attack power. Be as far away as you can still detect them (which can be very far if you also extend your sense), avoid them detecting you, and plink away with an attack that can't miss. Alternatively if you're feeling bold, attacking from surprise with an attack traded off to abysmal to hit and sky-high damage is effective too (and faster, but probably riskier since you need line of effect). This works much better on the "badass normals" like Batman than on flying bricks (who can not only tank a good number of your attacks, but also often have flight to close the distance faster than you may be comfortable with), but it's probably the most reliable tactic I can think of.
I'd forgotten about that little trick. How will it be able to deal with people who casually go hypersonic, though?
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There's also a bunch of cheese you can pull with very low-ranked Perception-range powers with a lot of extras (Penetrating, Sustained, Indirect, Triggered etc) if you just turtle up and let the power do its work for you.
Can you elaborate a little more? I'm afraid I don't quite understand what you mean.
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IIRC, the bathtub telekinetic still works as well, though I think it's become fairly expensive.
I don't recognize the term. Can you define it?
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You probably guessed this already, but you want to avoid just going toe to toe in any case. The math makes that not work out well for you even with a gap of just two PLs.
Yeah, I've done the arithmetic It's just that, well, I still have Ultimate Power lying around, and I'm sure you remember some of the lulz in that book. Although I am still irritated that you can't mudamudamuda.

Offline Agita

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Re: M&M 3e Challenge
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2013, 04:43:56 AM »
First off, not having "all the books" is okay - there's only the one in 3e.
So there's nothing of relevance in Supernatural Handbook? Good to know, I was planning on buying it. Is a shame, though, it sounded interesting.

And I would have sworn there was an Instant Heroes book, but on second glance it's 2e.
Actually, I wasn't aware of its existence at all. Been a while since I took a look at 3e products. Looking at its product page, it sounds like a Mecha & Manga or Swords & Sorcery kind of supplement - mostly flavor content with some advice for tweaking mechanics.

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My first instinct, without opening the book, would be to go for Concealment and stealth, and pick up a penetrates concealment sense and a Perception attack power. Be as far away as you can still detect them (which can be very far if you also extend your sense), avoid them detecting you, and plink away with an attack that can't miss. Alternatively if you're feeling bold, attacking from surprise with an attack traded off to abysmal to hit and sky-high damage is effective too (and faster, but probably riskier since you need line of effect). This works much better on the "badass normals" like Batman than on flying bricks (who can not only tank a good number of your attacks, but also often have flight to close the distance faster than you may be comfortable with), but it's probably the most reliable tactic I can think of.
I'd forgotten about that little trick. How will it be able to deal with people who casually go hypersonic, though?
That probably depends on some external factors. If you can hide in plain sight and have a Stealth check they just can't beat, being faster won't help them. It's hard to get there due to the caps, though, if they have any kind of Perception at all. With Skill Mastery and a fully capped Stealth check, you can be at between 28 to 30, or 30-32 if you also pick up Favored Enemy (JLA). Most of the JLA statted in the core book don't have terribly high perception, but a lot of the PL 14-15 ones do have it high enough to beat a 30 on a high roll, so they could find you eventually if you don't manage to take them out first.

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There's also a bunch of cheese you can pull with very low-ranked Perception-range powers with a lot of extras (Penetrating, Sustained, Indirect, Triggered etc) if you just turtle up and let the power do its work for you.
Can you elaborate a little more? I'm afraid I don't quite understand what you mean.
Let's see, as a quick example... say you have a Damage X power, with the extras Sustained, Penetrating X, Subtle 2, Triggered 2, maybe Contagious too. Let X be some low number like 2 so you aren't paying out of your nose for it. Make the rest of the build social, get friendly with peeps, be nonthreatening. Put a dozen or so triggers of your damage power on your mark. Because it's Subtle 2, they literally can't notice this unless they have a sense keyed to the power's descriptors, which is easy enough to avoid. At some point when you're far, far away, trigger all the damage activations at once and (metaphorically) watch the mark make a dozen Toughness rolls every six seconds against a pitiful damage DC. Penetrating bypasses Impervious Toughness. Again, they won't even notice they're taking damage thanks to Subtle. Eventually, they'll fail enough checks.
The weakness of this strategy is people like Supes who can make most low Toughness checks even on a 1. To take him down eventually, you need at least Damage 5 (making for a DC of 20, with his minimum result being a 19), which starts getting expensive.

Quote
IIRC, the bathtub telekinetic still works as well, though I think it's become fairly expensive.
I don't recognize the term. Can you define it?
I think the more common name for the build is the bathtub psychic, actually, but nevertheless:
The idea is basically the same as with the stealth build outlined above, except you take Remote Sensing and target people with Perception powers via that while sitting somewhere safe. It was called the bathtub psychic/telekinetic based on the idea of a character sitting at home in their bathtub while interacting with the world through Astral Projection (which was the power used in 2e).
On reading up, however, it doesn't seem possible any longer to target people with powers through Remote Sensing while also preventing others from targeting you, so that may put a wrench in the build.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 04:45:35 AM by Agita »
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Offline Cyclone Joker

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Re: M&M 3e Challenge
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2013, 05:13:56 AM »
Huh. Fascinating.

So the only way to even think about doing this is to snipe them from hundreds of miles away while invisible? Not anywhere near as elegant as I'd like, but functional. And to be honest, I totally hadn't even thought about the idea this way.

Also, social won't work. It's pure killingness. All opponents only have the objective of killing this character and vice-versa.

Offline Agita

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Re: M&M 3e Challenge
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2013, 06:51:53 AM »
Well, it's certainly the safest and probably most reliable way.
Another possibility: Take a Damage power traded off as far as you're allowed to. Take Power Attack and All-Out Attack. Attack from ambush. The other guy is surprised (unless they have Danger Sense or similar, which is a high possibility), meaning their dodge and parry defenses are zero. They now have to roll against the mother of all damage DCs. Drawback: If you miss, there goes your chance.
Fun fact: Attacking is a skill check in M&M 3e. Skill Mastery applies to this. This is explicitly not RAI as stated by a writer somewhere (Skill Mastery as applied to combat skills is supposed to work for stuff like trick shots that aren't attacks), but I'm not sure if it was clarified in errata.

Summoning still breaks the action economy, but it's much more expensive in 3e. You could conceivably spawn a bunch of critters and have them dogpile guys with Team Attacks. Potentially very effective, but less hilariously so than in 2e.

I assume taking Incorporeal 4 and then Immunity to the thing that bypasses your incorporeality would fall under stupid immunity abuse.
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Offline Amechra

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Re: M&M 3e Challenge
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2013, 05:21:05 PM »
I'm going to say this about Summoning (with the Horde and Multiple Minions extras):

Rank 3 summoning can let you generate 3 extra Hero Points each round. If you are really feeling it, Rank 5 summoning can give you 15 a round.

Hell, Rank 7 summoning gives you 128 minions, for 127 Hero Points a round.

Did they give you any prep time? Because if they did, you should have a couple thousand Hero Points, along with Luck Manipulation.

You can pretty much force them to reroll until they roll minimum, and keep on rerolling until your rolls are high enough.

As for Advantages:

-Seize Initiative lets you go first by spending 1 Hero Point. You have them to spare.
-Buy a buncha Ultimate Efforts; they let you auto-20 with a Hero Point. How may of those do you have again? Notably, it looks like you can pick Rank Checks. In which case, Instant Counter as much as you can; a PL 10 character essentially has an auto-30 for their Rank check; they would need to roll a 15 or better, and with Luck Manipulation, you can force them to reroll that.
-Extraordinary Effort is nice, since you can give yourself 2 extra standard actions in a turn, or +2 to the rank of a power, or ad-lib powers, or get extra Resistance checks.

If your GM is lenient, I'd suggest Ultimate Effort (Toughness), Ultimate Effort (Dodge), Ultimate Effort (Parry), and Ultimate Effort (Rank checks for Countering.)

That gives you a lot of power. Pretty much.
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Offline Agita

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Re: M&M 3e Challenge
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2013, 05:49:30 PM »
I'm pretty sure summoned minions don't get hero points, so most of that doesn't work. They can pass you luck points with Luck Control and so do the rerolling thing (which is a great idea that I hadn't thought of), but fueling extra effort and advantages won't work.

However, the same thing can be done more efficiently: Get two minions with the advantage. Give each of them Luck Control 1 (bestow a luck point) with the Area extra. Get the same yourself. Spend a luck point to give each of your minions a luck point. Have each of your minions use the luck point they just got to give each other and you a luck point. You now have two luck points. Repeat.
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Offline Amechra

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Re: M&M 3e Challenge
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2013, 05:58:18 PM »
...that's what I was doing.

Shit, I forgot to mention what I was doing, didn't I?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you can just give your minions Victory points, so they can route it to everyone.
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Offline Agita

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Re: M&M 3e Challenge
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2013, 07:46:43 PM »
...that's what I was doing.

Shit, I forgot to mention what I was doing, didn't I?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you can just give your minions Victory points, so they can route it to everyone.
Right. Still, the point about advantages stands. Seize Initiative, Ultimate Effort, and negating the fatigue from extra effort all specifically require hero points. Luck Control and the Luck advantage give out rerolls that are not hero points (they are referred to as luck points in Luck Control's description, but the Luck advantage stupidly fails to refer to them as such, I'm not sure if this has been errataed).
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Offline Amechra

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Re: M&M 3e Challenge
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2013, 09:24:25 PM »
Well, Luck Manipulation can grant Hero Points.

It is something it can do.

And there is that one enhancement that remove Minion status from your summoned minions, so yeah.
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Offline Agita

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Re: M&M 3e Challenge
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2013, 09:55:54 PM »
Well, Luck Manipulation can grant Hero Points.

It is something it can do.

And there is that one enhancement that remove Minion status from your summoned minions, so yeah.
It cannot.

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You can bestow a luck point on others. You can grant only one point to any given character in a round, but the recipient may use the bestowed point normally.

No hero points here.

Re removing minion status, I don't think that would change anything, as the section on hero points states every player gets one at the start of a session, rather than every character, and there's no mention elsewhere of minions or sidekicks getting any, either (though judging from the wording, it seems to me like you could technically spend hero points on behalf of any minions you, the player, control).
« Last Edit: April 04, 2013, 09:58:32 PM by Agita »
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Offline Amechra

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Re: M&M 3e Challenge
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2013, 10:05:00 PM »
Huh.

I'm working off the SRD, where it looks like you can grant Hero Points to other characters.
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