Breaking Polymorph, Totally Serious

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Yes, you heard me. I've never actually considered putting it on a character due to the cheese. But I've looked at the handbook, and although it wasn't really, really closely I didn't find anything that much more powerful than what is expected from a 4th level spell (wild shape for magic immunity via will-o-wisp says hi!). This is besides the usual non-polymorph shenanigans (wish loops, etc).

I've also ported the Supernatural Ability list, just to show how serious I am.

So besides a big versatile bump, why is polymorph the single thing E6 fears? If anything CoP is much scarier to a DM: "How should I know your biggest threat next week? That depends on your choices!"

I've got one good combo but it requires another spell and a whopping eleven to seven very high-powered feats (two just to permanently gain the ability so as to qualify at an unknown level-up time), so its basically a focal point of the build:

(click to show/hide)

0a) another spell to creation or summon undead
0b) be a spontaneous (divination) caster
1) Extend Spell
2) Persistent Spell
3) Assume Supernatural Ability
4) Improved Assume Supernatural ability (to avoid continuous -2hit, saves, skills, ability checks)
5) Finally, you need +3 CL. This is non-trivial at level 7. One of the best ways seems to be Reserves of Strength. You can do without this later but its still a great feat for a polymorph-driven build.
6,7) Sanctum Spell & Versatile Spellcaster with an intelligence of 18 for the needed bonus spell. Like the above these aren't as important
8) Spell Focus (Necromancy)
9) Greater Spell Focus (Necromancy)
10) Undead Batteries
11a) Now turn into a Spell Weaver [MMII187]
11b) Mindsight (now that we have telepathy always up) now enjoy being a mobile 1000 mile radar station for anything with a mind.

Edit: Assume no share spells. It's just you gaining the polymorph benefit. No extra familiar polymorphed zoo army.

[Mithril Leaf]

Well, polymorphing into a kelzuvu (or maybe kelvuzu, it's from the Demons of MMII) for free 8d6 sneak attack and nice physical stats (around 30 Dex) is always handy. It takes CL 12. Honestly, polymorph isn't that cheesy. It's exceptionally good, but things like Ice Assassin are cheesy. It's mainly because it's an omnitool as far as casters go, you get all the of all the physical abilities of all the monsters in the book. Plus it's wildshape's ability to ignore physical attributes.

[Mister Freeze]

Polymorph is only cheesy in a low op setting, because it just makes you good at melee (unless you invest a lot into it, via assume supernatural ability and so forth).  All it takes is you polymorphing into a hydra, and suddenly the fighter and so forth are going to feel useless, because suddenly you and your familiar get 7 attacks each at level 7, as long as you stay close.  There's a good chance you now also have more HP than the fighter because of your increase in con.  Outside of core with some CL boosting, war troll is another favorite, because it gets the ability to daze things with its attacks, plus a huge str and con score.

Shapechange, on the other hand, is catastrophically broken right out of the box. 

[Kaelik]

There's a good chance you now also have more HP than the fighter because of your increase in con.

Someone isn't playing with errata.

[Mister Freeze]

There's a good chance you now also have more HP than the fighter because of your increase in con.

Someone isn't playing with errata.

Skip Williams agrees with me, the errata doesn't mean what you apparently think it does.

[Scottzar]

Polymorph copies spellcasting. This was one of LoP's dirty tricks, IIRC, but I can't find it. This is the core of the lvl 1 ethergaunt shuffle, but that's pretty sourcebook intense for all the + cl feats.

That's all you really need.


I must ask: if 28 dex, +9 deflection bonus, perma invis and immunity to SR checking magic are considered normal for a 4th level spell, what spells are you casting which give these levels of benefit?

[wotmaniac]

Mix with Master Transmogrifist for the win.

[Garryl]

There's a good chance you now also have more HP than the fighter because of your increase in con.

Someone isn't playing with errata.

Skip Williams agrees with me, the errata doesn't mean what you apparently think it does.

That article came out 2 years before the Polymorph subschool errata in PHB2, which is what removes the hp change. In theory. They still managed to make it less than 100% clear.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Polymorph copies spellcasting. This was one of LoP's dirty tricks, IIRC, but I can't find it.

Same neighborhood:  Abusing the new Polymorph - (by K)
... is the thread but it's only avaiable in the wayback now.
forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=648806
That was near the end of the old wotc T.O. board.


The versatility of it is >> a normal spell list.
Add in the Assume or MT feats to get all those juicy (su) abilities.

Wizard 1 > carnivore Pixie 4      

[Mithril Leaf]

Polymorph copies spellcasting. This was one of LoP's dirty tricks, IIRC, but I can't find it. This is the core of the lvl 1 ethergaunt shuffle, but that's pretty sourcebook intense for all the + cl feats.

That's all you really need.


I must ask: if 28 dex, +9 deflection bonus, perma invis and immunity to SR checking magic are considered normal for a 4th level spell, what spells are you casting which give these levels of benefit?

Polymorph :3c
If you never play with the really powerful spells banned, they just don't seem that amazing. And polymorph still requires 8 more hours of rest to get spellcasting, if it even does (which is at best debatable).

[Mister Freeze]

That article came out 2 years before the Polymorph subschool errata in PHB2, which is what removes the hp change. In theory. They still managed to make it less than 100% clear.

The language in the polymorph subschool isn't meaningfully different than what was already present in the language of alter self, so if con changes from polymorph changed your HP before, nothing from the introduction of that subschool would change that.  The polymorph subschool wasn't created to deal with polymorph, it was created to deal with all the lesser versions of polymorph (aspect of the wolf and so forth) that they started printing when they realized how common banning polymorph altogether was at tables. 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I agree with the OP.  I have used polymorph and have not found it that insanely powerful.  You can make the fighter obsolete, but so can lots of things casters do, like summoning, or CoDzilla.  UNLIKE those things, however, you can actually share polymorph *with* the fighter, as it is not a self-only buff, and instead of replacing him, use it to make him more awesome.  That's actually my favorite thing about the Polymorph spell.

I do think out of core, there are a lot of really broken monsters, and there are feats and ways to become different creature types to expand your options beyond what was originally intended, and that can break polymorph.  But it does take effort, cheese, and blatantly unbalanced monsters.  In core, you can best use it for the hydra form, yeah.  But you wouldn't get the single-minded coordination to move and attack with all the heads, that's clearly a "quality," unlike pounce, which is an attack.  I guess Cloaker can also be abusive. That's...about it.

I think Enervation spam is more powerful, really.  Toss a lot of those (empowered, split, quickened, and/or maximized if possible) and you can ruin a caster pretty fast.  As casters are the most potent threat in the game, that makes it a pretty powerful spell.

Shapechange is definitely broken, though, no question.  And Alter Self is way too good and long-lasting for its spell level.  If higher level and nerfed a bit, it'd be fine.  Both are also self-only, which makes things worse.

But Polymorph itself I've never really had an issue with, I think the internet condemnation of it is way overblown.

[wotmaniac]

Familiar's Share Spells + Polymorph = 
your goddamned bonded-helper toad should not be outright replacing entire character concepts.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Familiar's Share Spells + Polymorph = 
your goddamned bonded-helper toad should not be outright replacing entire character concepts.

Yeah... my familiar gets whacked, I lose a fuckton of xp...  Familiar can stay in the back using wands, thank you.  I'll certainly polymorph him along with myself to buff his nat armor and defenses.  But sending your familiar to combat is stupid, no matter how buffed to hell it is.

[Raineh Daze]

I agree with the OP.  I have used polymorph and have not found it that insanely powerful.  You can make the fighter obsolete, but so can lots of things casters do, like summoning, or CoDzilla.  UNLIKE those things, however, you can actually share polymorph *with* the fighter, as it is not a self-only buff, and instead of replacing him, use it to make him more awesome.  That's actually my favorite thing about the Polymorph spell.

Well, there goes the fighter's entire reason for having any sort of build, as its highly unlikely a fighter's feats are tailored to make optimum use out of being turned into another creature. If they are, then they're basically playing a summoned creature anyway, so not much of a fighter. 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Well, there goes the fighter's entire reason for having any sort of build, as its highly unlikely a fighter's feats are tailored to make optimum use out of being turned into another creature. If they are, then they're basically playing a summoned creature anyway, so not much of a fighter. 

Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip.... all work fine in any form (unless you now lack the stats to qualify and use them).  The weapon related feats might be problematic... but they suck anyway, so who cares? 
But even with weapons and armor, there's still plenty of giant, monstrous humanoid, and other human-shaped creatures to turn the fighter into so he can still use his weapons and armor, too.

[strider24seven]

In core, you can best use it for the hydra form, yeah.  But you wouldn't get the single-minded coordination to move and attack with all the heads, that's clearly a "quality," unlike pounce, which is an attack.  I guess Cloaker can also be abusive. That's...about it.

Except that a hydra's ability to attack with all of its heads is clearly not a "quality."  In fact, it is listed neither under "Special Attacks" nor under "Special Qualities."  A hydra's ability to attack with all of its heads is twofold:  its ability to do so on a normal melee attack, even if it moves or charges, and its ability to do so as an attack of opportunity.  The former is simply part of its attack routine and is referenced in the "Combat" section in the MM, while the latter is granted by a modified Combat Reflexes feat that it gains as a racial bonus feat.

Polymorph grants both of these abilities to anyone who chooses a hydra form. 
See spoiler for details.

(click to show/hide)

Polymorph grants the following (bolded for emphasis):

This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.

Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further). If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead.

The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.

Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to being polymorphed, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action.

...and then defaults back to alter self (also bolded for emphasis)

You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself.

You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).

You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.

If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components.

You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.

You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form. Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form. You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.

You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.

When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form

Since a hydra's ability to attack with all of its heads is not an extraordinary special quality, and not a supernatural or spell-like special attack or special quality, and since it is comprised of both X natural attacks (X being the number of heads) and a racial bonus feat, Polymorph would grant it in its entirety.

Now, as to polymorph seeing actual play:
It is a very powerful spell, but only broken if the rest of your party is made up of martials. 
This is true of the entire Alter Self line, with the notable exception of Shapechange, which is pretty much broken no matter how you look at it (unless you or your DM severely limits your forms and whether or not it grants spellcasting... RAW it does but many DM's tend to remove that bit from Shapechange, which brings its power level down from the stratosphere.)
 
Alter Self comes out early and hits hard... even Core-only humanoids get the Troglodyte for +6 natural armor, 30' move (if you were a dwarf or small), 2 claws, a bite, the multiattack feat, and +4/+8 hide depending on surroundings. 

Polymorph's big winners are the Roper, Cloaker, Choker (with some way to get its Quickness ability, like Metamorphic Transfer or Assume Supernatural Ability), Hydra. 

Draconic Polymorph from Spell Compendium is basically a "win-more" version of Polymorph, trading a spell level for some stat bonuses.  The difference between a Draconic Polymorph and an Extended Polymorph may vary wildly depending on your game.  In my games I tend to prefer the latter, because staying moderately vicious for longer is generally more valuable than being very vicious for shorter. 

[Raineh Daze]

Well, there goes the fighter's entire reason for having any sort of build, as its highly unlikely a fighter's feats are tailored to make optimum use out of being turned into another creature. If they are, then they're basically playing a summoned creature anyway, so not much of a fighter. 

Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip.... all work fine in any form (unless you now lack the stats to qualify and use them).  The weapon related feats might be problematic... but they suck anyway, so who cares? 
But even with weapons and armor, there's still plenty of giant, monstrous humanoid, and other human-shaped creatures to turn the fighter into so he can still use his weapons and armor, too.

Seems like saying "you're useless as you are, so I'm going to replace your entire physical form for you!" to me, which seems like, well... 


If you're going to change them into a monstrous humanoid or giant, I'm not perfectly sure why you'd bother using polymorph. 

[kitep]

I think it was a lot worse in 3.0, when the duration lasted a lot longer.

[Nunkuruji]

I would say E6 in part fears the Polymorph + Assume SNA due to the Save or Dies it opens up, and some of the capabilities it enables. Versatility in itself is nice, but don't confuse it for broken.

'Typical' E6 with it's 3rd level spell cap still has a lot of Save or Suck, but staple Save or Dies such as Slay Living typically aren't in the hands of PCs. With Poly + SNA we have this easily with Medusa, and a host of other broken (Barghest) or very strong abilities that are normally out of reach even just at CL 6.

The even higher CL/HD forms become an issue as more of a product of not having an E6 CL cap, as it can deal poorly with simple stat escalation.

In terms of capabilities, without an alternate rule, you're looking at the only? way to Raise Dead via Lesser Planar Binding via poaching the 3rd level spell off the Demonologist list.

So, as the DM, it depends on what sort of power level & capability you want out of your E6 world. Do these things exist in your campaign world, or do they not.


---
Tangent

I've been looking at these sorts of interactions as I've slowly been building up my E6 PrC+ doc, as the next campaign I plan to DM after Age of Worms will use those E6 rules. Ultimately I've decided that I want these sorts of things in this campaign, but it should be noted that these powerful capabilities are available only to specialists. In essence, your typical Wizard chassis is going to be a generalist spell list, whereas PrC specialists like a Demonologist are going to be the ones doing Planar Binding. In such a world, yeah, those evil bastards are really going to be the only ones permanently summoning in abyssal forces that are causing pain and suffering across the world. Those spells aren't really going to be available at the local magic shop either. Obviously this moves the bar up on the power curve a bit, but ultimately my goal is to reduce some complexities & decision paralysis that come with higher and higher levels of play.