Breaking Polymorph, Totally Serious

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Polymorph copies spellcasting. This was one of LoP's dirty tricks, IIRC, but I can't find it. This is the core of the lvl 1 ethergaunt shuffle, but that's pretty sourcebook intense for all the + cl feats.

Like Soro, I don't ascribe to that interpretation. What shuffle though? DCFS? The Duskgiant or other HD shuffles are already more broken than polymorph. You can do them with WS, which is strong but not broken.

Mix with Master Transmogrifist for the win.

I like this PrC. It's a huge investment with interesting payoffs. It reminds me of MoMF.

[Nunkuruji]

MT is interesting, except for the slap in the face of 6/10 casting given that you really want to have Shapechange working with its class features at the upper levels, pre-epic. (nothing a kobold can't fix.. hah hah... mreh)

[wotmaniac]

No -- MT has absolutely no business whatsoever getting Shapechange pre-epic.  Full stop.

[Mister Freeze]

But turning into a chronotyryn and then cherry picking another creature's ability to add to the mix is fun!

[nijineko]

elder giant magic feat requires only spellcraft 9 ranks or giant type.

for that you get the ability to boost your cl by up to +3. and if you are giant type, you can also use it on your SLAs.

[Scottzar]

Polymorph copies spellcasting. This was one of LoP's dirty tricks, IIRC, but I can't find it. This is the core of the lvl 1 ethergaunt shuffle, but that's pretty sourcebook intense for all the + cl feats.

Like Soro, I don't ascribe to that interpretation. What shuffle though? DCFS? The Duskgiant or other HD shuffles are already more broken than polymorph. You can do them with WS, which is strong but not broken.

It's not an 'interpretation'. It's proven fact. (Not sure if Read-as-Written is the correct term, given the mechanics are derived via process of elimination within the given ruleset, although unlike with true dragons this doesn't conflict with examples)
Ethergaunt shuffle is getting high enough base CL, via reserves of strength and such, and then going
Alterself/Polymorph into red etherguant > Have more spellcasting effective level >Polymorph into white ethergaunt >Draconic polymorph/PaO into Black ethergaunt >+17 to your effective spellcasting level

[Mister Freeze]

I'm guessing this is one of the creatures that explicitly does have (EX) casting, and not the dubious reading that claims spellcasting is (EX)/(SU)/(SP) in general?

[Scottzar]

It was proved that spellcasting is a natural feature. This isn't dubious at all.
Your question seems illogical.

[Mister Freeze]

Right, spellcasting is a natural ability everywhere except in MM5 (I think?).  Shapechange does not grant natural abilities?

[Scottzar]

I thought the MM5 was one specific creature which listed it's spellcasting as Ex?
Regardless, all of the line, from alter self through to shapechange, use the same base 'effect' and thus gain natural abilities.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I don't know why people even argue about the gaining spellcasting "application" of Shapechange.

It's not going to be allowed in a game, whether it's RAW or not.

I like how my current DM replied when I said as regards Shapechange, I don't consider spellcasting to be something you gain.
DM: "Even if you did, I'd rule you'd need to rest 8 hours and prepare spells again to actually get to use them."
I guess the spell could be made to outlast that, but it does make it harder to abuse.

[phaedrusxy]

The Roper is pretty insane. A bunch of strength damaging ranged touch attacks...

For the level, I think Alter Self is actually more overpowered than Polymorph, though...