[3.P] Tier 3 "Wizard" and "Cleric"

[ImperatorK]

For my games I want the players to stay in the T3 range of power, but I also don't want to completely take away the possibility of playing a "Wizard"-ish or "Cleric"-ish archetype character. Thus I'm trying to remake other classes into weaker versions of those. For Wizard I'm gonna use Bard with access to Wizard/Sorcerer list. Arguably it's still T3 (although strong T3, but that's fine). Now it's time for the Cleric.

What spell levels would you be alright with each class having?  If it's in the 5th or 6th range then using the bard's or duskblade's casting numbers (not necessarily spells of course) might work.  If you want 9's though you'll need to have a specialized list a la Dread Necro and Beguiler if you want it to stay T3.

Well, 6th level is proven to be the sweet spot.
I don't want to use specialized list classes, my goal is to have one class that fills the role of the Wizard/Cleric, which means a versatile generalist, but without being overpowered.

[Jackinthegreen]

It sounds like buffing the Adept might align with what you want.  Give it the bard's spellcasting numbers (though it probably deserves 1st level spells at 1st level due to lack of class features) and a selection of 6th level spells, plus add in some other ones of different levels since you're going for a generalist, and you should be set.  Since you want it to be more like cleric/wizard, I'm assuming that also means prepared spellcasting?  Casting and preparing through a book or through prayer is subjective enough that I can't really make a recommendation either way.

[ImperatorK]

Doesn't have to be prepared. And Bards get 1st level spells at 1st level in PF.
EDIT: Huh, I didn't put the appropriate tag in the title. Lets fix that.

[Jackinthegreen]

Didn't know bards got 1st level spells at 1st in PF, but all I can say is: It's about damn time!

As for the rest though, was there anything else you might want commented on?  My first thought was that the adept's (both 3.5 and PF) class features are rather sparse, so adding some would be quite helpful.

[ImperatorK]

I'm thinking it through. Might take a while.
The easiest would be to just use Bard spellcasting, I guess, because it works fine. Perhaps put it on the Cleric's hassis? Something like Cleric hassis and class features, but Bard spellcasting with Cleric list? Maybe I'll add Archivist's class features to the mix.

[rasmuswagner]

"Everything has Casting time: 1 round, or more". There's a huge debuff to casters right there. Then make some spells Exotic, requiring a feat to learn.

[ImperatorK]

I'd rather limit this thread to making a tier 3 "Cleric", thank you.

[wotmaniac]

I'd rather limit this thread to making a tier 3 "Cleric", thank you.

Divine Bard ; replace Bardic Music with Turn Undead

(yeah, I got a little lazy with that one)

[Maat Mons]

The retrieved spells mechanic from spirit shaman might be a good fit.  It keeps the day-to-day variability without resorting to prepared casting. 

[Halinn]

Buff the spell list of the Inquisitor?

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Most any 5/10 or 6/10 PrC is enough to neuter a Tier 1.

Or push the Bard or PsyWar prog on it.

[gorfnab]

Nightstalker from Dragonlance: Races of Ansalon - Bard like casting, decent skills, Rebuke Undead. Spells are mostly Conjuration (Healing), Necromancy, and Divination.

Healer from Miniatures Handbook - To make it tier 3 I would suggest giving it Turn Undead, make it a spontaneous caster (with spells known being its spell list, kind of like the Beguiler), set its spellcasting stat to Cha only, and maybe give it Advanced Learning every even level set to Conjuration (Healing) spells to augment its spell list or just update its list with more Conjuration (Healing) spells and maybe some other protection/buffing spells as shown in this Healer Handbook http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6849

[RobbyPants]

I'm thinking it through. Might take a while.
The easiest would be to just use Bard spellcasting, I guess, because it works fine. Perhaps put it on the Cleric's hassis? Something like Cleric hassis and class features, but Bard spellcasting with Cleric list? Maybe I'll add Archivist's class features to the mix.

Do note that by pushing back the level you get your spells, you're also pushing back the level at which you get the various Remove ___ spells. Unless you adjust monster CRs accordingly, this will have the unintended affect of leaving the party more vulnerable to energy drain, paralysis, and the like for several more levels.

Probably the easiest way I can suggest for dropping tiers is to give each class a very nailed down spell list, like the war mage or beguiler, and let them cast off of it spontaneously. Be sure not to actually make it too good, though. If you give them all the win spells, then you haven't really weakened them. One thing to keep in mind is to make each character primarily only affect one type of save, so they can't just switch to affect a weak save round by round. This will make it more important to have well-rounded parties, which may be good or bad.

[ImperatorK]

That would be counter-productive to my goal.

[RobbyPants]

That would be counter-productive to my goal.

Which part? Not raising the level that they get their Remove ___ spells, or the fixed lists?

[ImperatorK]

The second (I knew I should have quoted the part I was responding to >.<).

[Jackinthegreen]

For those who wish to contribute more, Imperator's main goal is to make a generalist kind of caster that'll be T3.  Owing to requiring a varied spell list to do general casting, that means the class would be best capped at 6th level spells because it's mostly 7th through 9th that cause the biggest headaches and put casters into T2 and higher.

I'm pretty sure the original question has been answered by now.  The only things really be wondered about, if they're still on the table, are class features and maybe certain spells.

[lans]

I think it should be given the  cure line(up to mass heal), restoration line, and Raise dead line as spell like abilities at the appropriate level

[veekie]

because it's mostly 7th through 9th that cause the biggest headaches and put casters into T2 and higher.

Not entirely though, the bulk of the most cited spells a are closer to levels 3rd to 5th, writers for the higher power spells tend to be just "more bigger" than granting any true tier shifting magnitude. Granted, getting those late does slow down breakage a lot.