Warlock/Eldritch Theurge

[Rainbowseb]

Hi all,

I plan on submitting some builds I have been working on for a while. I am a big fan of drows and warlocks so lots of my builds will be based off these.

Some important things to keep in mind when giving inputs:
- This is my first post, please correct me if I am doing anything wrong.
- I have never actually played the game, that is why I am interested in your inputs to make it adapted to actual play.
- I am not interested in heavy optimization, I am interested in flavor and fun-to-play builds (ofc fun to play means a bit of optimization to not die at the first encounter).
- I have all books at my disposal but let's try to avoid campaign specific material.
- Yes drow sucks for the LA+2 but idc and builds should be easily adaptable to human anyway.

Now let's get down to the build:
Race: Drow

Class: War3/Wiz3/EldritchTheurge10/FateSpinner2

Stats (buy25): Str4 Dex18 Con12 Int20 Wis4 Char10

Feats: Improved familiar, practiced spellcaster, extend spell, insightful divination, quicken spell, silent spell, still spell

Invocations: shatter, see the unseen, entropic warding, fell flight, spider form, relentless dispelling, black tentacles, change shatter for walk unseen

skills: focus on spellcraft, knowledge planes, knowledge arcana, appraise and UMD. (20 each by lvl 20)

To keep this post not too long I won't explain each choice in details and will wait for your first impressions.
The idea is to have a diviner able to control the battlefield to a certain extend and strike foes where it hurts.
He must also be able to do something if magic is cancelled, due to his high dexterity he should be able to use a crossbow quite well.

Please comment, correct, discuss and improve!

Seb

[Agnostic Paladin]

Well, offhand, your point buy stats start at 8, not 4. Your other four stats started at 16, 14, 18 and 8: 32 points. I guess you could be considering the four point penalties to be worth an extra eight points, in which case you've underspent by one. But I'd really really recommend not having fours. A four strength is an invalid; we're talking octogenarian who can't lift herself out of bed here. A four wisdom is some sort of severe mental disability.

[Jackinthegreen]

Definitely make sure to raise your strength and wisdom.  Even though you've got great Will saves from your casting classes, the Wis hit is going to hurt you.  10 will work, and maybe 8, but never go lower than that.

There's a reason 8 is the minimum for point buy: Having less than an 8 in any stat will almost certainly cripple you.  You're only a single spell or ability away from getting them damaged or drained to 0, which means becoming helpless (for every stat but Con) or dead (for 0 Con). Charisma is possibly the easiest to work with being low since out of the box it doesn't do a lot (which I suspect is part of why the designers made so many things key off it in splats), but if 8 is the minimum then being Drow will of course take that to 10 like you have done.

As far as warlock goes, there's the Warlock Information Compilation on these boards or The Newest Warlock Handbook over on GitP.  The GitP one has some more up to date stuff such as Eldritch Claws from Dragon Mag.

If you want to look at alternate class features for wizard, took a look here.  You don't have enough levels in warlock to do anything with its ACFs, and they're crappy anyway.

[Rainbowseb]

Thanks for the replies,

The stats shown here are after Racial adjustments which for Drows are +2 Int, Dex, Char and -2 Con.
Ok so I could probably get 2 less points in Int and 1 less in Dex to get my str and wis to 8.

I have read the warlock handbooks and eldritch claw does not seem appealing for a squishy wizard (+ it is dragon magazine cheese) I will maybe use it for another build, more melee oriented.
Here I think I will prefer using my invocations to avoid fighting and my spells to add control and maybe some blasting to the fight (certainly using all kinds of rays).

About the ACFs, warlock ACFs seem really crappy... but for the wizard part I was looking at Domain power and/or domain wizard, any thoughts about these?

[Rainbowseb]

Ok now I have some questions about the spider form invocation:

How powerful is the spider form?

Is it interesting to go around as an invisible giant flying spider?

Am I silent if I fly using the fell flight invocation?

Can I still cast spells in spider form (still spells? silent spells?)

Is there a way to still be able to use invocations in spider form?


RS

[Jackinthegreen]

1: The spider forms are only good for scouting.  They're crap in combat.

2: See above.  If scouting is interesting to you, by all means go for it.

3: Presumably, yes.

4: It's a polymorph effect, which means it's complicated to figure out what exactly it does.  However, since the invocation references the rules on page 59 in the DotU, those are the rules that it's likely to be held to.  Here's the relevant text: "The target loses all the special abilities it has in its normal form, including its class features (even if the new form would normally be able to use these class features)."

So no, you can't cast spells.  You also can't cast any invocations (including Eldritch Blast), but ones you cast beforehand will still apply.  So yes, you'd still be able to fly and be invisible if that's what you want.  But you won't be able to do much of anything besides "play spider" until you dismiss the invocation.

5: Looking at the above rules, no.

Personally, I wouldn't take that invocation if I were you.  You lose a lot just to turn into a monstrous spider.

[Concerned Ninja Citizen]

Don't know if it's an option or attractive to you but you can be an LA +0 Drow by taking only level 0 of the Savage Progression.

[Rainbowseb]

Thanks for the confirmations!

Ok so combat wise spider is not interesting... even the gargantuan form?

If not then let's use it for scouting, nobody will be suspicious of a tiny spider and even less suspicious if this tiny spider is invisible.
So if I add flight for the silence, some spells like knock and wizards have many ways to disarm traps then *poof* I am better than the rogue no?
I can also take the darkstalker feat somewhere
And if something ever finds me I can still escape through walls with flee the scene or just blast it down?

If I want to push it, what do you think about:
war3/wiz3/child of the night3/ED7/Unseen sire2
This should allow me to not only rely on spells but also take some ranks in search, spot, listen, hide and move silently....

About the LA 0 with savage progression... what's the point? if I understand it correctly, it is still LA+2 just that you start at level 1 and take 2 levels of drow so you still "lose" 2 levels of other classes no?
Or do you mean NOT taking these 2 levels?
In this case you lose spell resistance and long range darkvision so in my opinion better play a human then.

Seb

[Jackinthegreen]

Careful about being too excited lest some or all of the stuff disappoint you.  I usually recommend people read the rules in painful detail as they're pulling builds together to make absolute sure what they think might be cool actually works.  At least you don't seem to have the idea that D&D supports the typical MMO tank with taunt abilities and such.  http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9334.0 is an example of jumping to conclusions and then being disappointed.

Access to spells will absolutely destroy, maim, trample, defenestrate, and otherwise slaughter the combat ability of a gargantuan spider.  You won't be getting access to the gargantuan size spider though because it requires Warlock caster level 20 as per the description of the invocation.  Even if you're able to buy off the Drow LA and can finangle your class and prestige levels (and feats since you might need Practised Spellcaster to shore up lost caster levels from wizard and PrCs) to get caster level 20 for Warlock, it's still 20th level before you can normally get it.

2d8+10 damage once per round also sucks at 20th level.  You'd be better off firing an Eldritch Blast for damage since 9d6 averages out to 31.5 damage, and you'd hopefully be more accurate too since EB targets touch AC.  The DC 20 poison is somewhat nice I guess since it's 2d6 Str damage and can happen multiple times, but chances are you're not built for serious melee

Don't try to be a better rogue than the rogue is.  You're a wizard/warlock.  Let lesser classes deal with that.  You've got spells (and invocations) on your side and can literally alter reality.  If you must fill the trapfinding role, wands can do the trick handily.

Keep in mind spell resistance is sometimes a trap.  You have to lower it to let others buff you for example, but thankfully it won't interfere with your own spells or abilities.


I'll have more once I've had some sleep.

[Rainbowseb]

I like your style "the green"!

Ok so let's just forget about the spider form for combat and keep it for flavor. (sorry for the gargantuan form, did not have the book at hand)

Of course my blast (+ eventually spellweave) will destroy anything but I am trying to find some other ways to use the abilities of the character as the blaster role seems quite boring, especially out of combat.

Why not be a better rogue than the rogue if I can? If the party has a warlock/ET instead of a rogue they get all the utility and sneakiness + the spells, no?
In fact actually have 4 different builds for this warlock/ET that I could use depending on the party. I presented this one as I feel it is the most versatile but keeping the same base I can always adapt to be blaster/controller/scout/party face and usually 2 of these roles at the same time.
What I don't know is if I can be efficient enough in these roles, that's why I submit here.

My knowledge of the rules is certainly perfectible, that is why I am seeking advice from wiser players on these boards. I also lack practical experience... your example is exactly what  I am looking for; correction to the mistakes I certainly did, so please get some rest and send more, this is interesting.

[Concerned Ninja Citizen]

About the LA 0 with savage progression... what's the point? if I understand it correctly, it is still LA+2 just that you start at level 1 and take 2 levels of drow so you still "lose" 2 levels of other classes no?
Or do you mean NOT taking these 2 levels?
In this case you lose spell resistance and long range darkvision so in my opinion better play a human then.

Seb

The ones in Savage Species force you to take all their levels before doing anything else but the online ones specifically say you don't have to do that. So you can just take lv0 which gives you a set of Drow traits that are on par with other LA0 races.

If what you wanted from the Drow race was spell resistance and 120ft darkvision, you'll have to deal with the LA, yeah. Personally, I've never found the range on darkvision to be relevant and spell resistance is as much of a pain in the ass as it is a benefit since you have to drop it to recieve beneficial spells.

As to LA0 Drow vs Human: Human is a better race in general but if your build wants Int and Dex, or to be a Drow or an Elf for whatever reason, it's a good way to do that.

[Rainbowseb]

The ones in Savage Species force you to take all their levels before doing anything else but the online ones specifically say you don't have to do that. So you can just take lv0 which gives you a set of Drow traits that are on par with other LA0 races.

If what you wanted from the Drow race was spell resistance and 120ft darkvision, you'll have to deal with the LA, yeah. Personally, I've never found the range on darkvision to be relevant and spell resistance is as much of a pain in the ass as it is a benefit since you have to drop it to recieve beneficial spells.

As to LA0 Drow vs Human: Human is a better race in general but if your build wants Int and Dex, or to be a Drow or an Elf for whatever reason, it's a good way to do that.

Yep totally agree but as this char will certainly be self-buffing most of the time SR should no be much of a problem.
For the darkvision I feel that 60 feet more might be important in the Underdark.
Thank you for the suggestion, this online version is really more interesting than the one in DoTU/SS

[Jackinthegreen]

I like your style "the green"!

Ok so let's just forget about the spider form for combat and keep it for flavor. (sorry for the gargantuan form, did not have the book at hand)

Of course my blast (+ eventually spellweave) will destroy anything but I am trying to find some other ways to use the abilities of the character as the blaster role seems quite boring, especially out of combat.

Why not be a better rogue than the rogue if I can? If the party has a warlock/ET instead of a rogue they get all the utility and sneakiness + the spells, no?
In fact actually have 4 different builds for this warlock/ET that I could use depending on the party. I presented this one as I feel it is the most versatile but keeping the same base I can always adapt to be blaster/controller/scout/party face and usually 2 of these roles at the same time.
What I don't know is if I can be efficient enough in these roles, that's why I submit here.

My knowledge of the rules is certainly perfectible, that is why I am seeking advice from wiser players on these boards. I also lack practical experience... your example is exactly what  I am looking for; correction to the mistakes I certainly did, so please get some rest and send more, this is interesting.

If you find that the amount of resources you have to use to fill the rogue role is acceptable to you, by all means go for it.  http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8995.0 might interest you.

What handbooks have you looked at for wizard?  http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/09/wizards-handbook-part-one-attributes.html and http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/09/this-is-second-part-to-wizard-handbook.html are a great start, and you only need to pick one or two shticks to work.  http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2716.0 is good too.  A lot of handbooks don't go into much detail about blasting because blasting is usually thought to suck, so what's left are the awesome utility and "screw you" spells.

[Rainbowseb]

so what's left are the awesome utility and "screw you" spells.

First I don't find the amount of resources to turn the character into a rogue really overwhelming (losing 1 or 2 caster levels that's all...) and even left untouched I can still be a descent scout (divination, knock, invisibility...)
Then I feel that spell choice is the easy part of determining what your character will be doing.
So if I understand correctly, yes I can be a magical rogue + be the wizard + still be a descent warlock in case I run out of spells?


Seb