Author Topic: Monk Optimization - Improved Unarmed Strike Weapon Special Abilities  (Read 16923 times)

Offline Captnq

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It seems like this topic should be posted here.

I have been asked why I speak highly of Monks when they suck so bad. I point out a particular player who has taking Monk CO to scary places. I have been asked to post said player's stats, but I have a policy of not posting a player's stats without permission. Apparently at some time in the past this board has offended my player so bad that she will not post here. As such, I can only speak in generalities.

Since I am working on my WSA handbook (I am currently breaking down all individual Special Weapons, BTW) and she has said it's okay to use some of her older combos for the handbook, I'm posting some combinations that have come up in play for review before I put it in the handbook itself. Please post any useful comments.

Do note that I am running a RAW 3.0/3.5 campaign where anything published by WotC (even the Dragon magazines) is allowed as written. I expected the campaign to explode 20 levels ago, but it's been going strong for years now. Strangely enough we have not reached the Pun-Pun Event Horizon as I expected. So, until the players get bored or we finally reach PPEH and it collapses into a single PC that is so powerful the campaign become meaningless, I plod on.

What makes her monk scary is the sheer number of WSAs you can stack on her Improved Unarmed Strike before going epic. A normal fighter can take a single weapon and with some work get a total of +14 to any one given weapon. Now, it is possible to wield multiple weapons, but they count as different attacks, so one weapon can, at most have a base +1, +9 in WSAs and get hit with a Greater Magic Weapon spell for a +5 and that equals out to +14.

Now, an archer has the problem that projectile weapons are shut down by a number of low level spells, but projectile weapons and ammo can combine to give a theoretical max of +23. +1/+9 for the bow, +1/+9 for the Ammo, and GMW for another +5.

A monk can have a TO of +43.

Not that I allowed that, mind you, but she still managed to get it up to +33 and some other rules abuses that follow.

1) First of all, we have the Bracers of Striking. As written, they enhance the Improved Unarmed Strike Directly. The way it is written, you have to treat them as a Blunt weapon for purposes of enchanting, but they are not weapons in and of themselves. So, from the BoS we get our first +1/+9.


2) Next we have the Ward Cestus, which specifically states that it does damage: special. The special damage is that it does damage based on your Unarmed Strike, yet it is a weapon. Now, originally I argued that the WSAs of BoS and WC would not stack. However, my player came up with many counter arguments and in the end my player group agreed that she had a point. The main argument is this:

A) The Archer gets to stack WSAs from his weapon and his ammo. Ammo in and of itself does no damage. Ward Cestus does no damage in and of itself. So, in effect a ward cestus is reusable ammo, and your unarmed strike is the projectile weapon.

B) I countered with, "Archer's suck so they need all the love they can get.". Which she countered with, "Everyone says Monks Suck." So I let it go.

Thus we now have a total of +1/+18


3) The ward cestus is a Light weapon. So one can increase it's size and add the WSA Balanced to it. Now, since the WC does no damage in and of itself, I have ruled that increasing it's size does NOT increase the damage. She still went ahead and did it anyways, because increasing the weapon size makes it a one-handed weapon. Thus she can choose to wield it two-handed to set up some truly disgusting display of the use of the Power Attack feat.


4) A Necklace of natural attacks is worded very poorly. Alas, the way it reads, anything you put in it is added to your Natural Attacks. A monk's unarmed strike is considered a natural attack by the SRD. You don't even need to put that first +1 weapon enhancement in the necklace. In theory, you can have a Necklace of nothing but WSAs and they should stack with BoS and WC.

So now we are up to +1/+28

At this point, I wish to point out the Kensai class, which would allow you to add up to another +1/+9 to your fists. My player argued that the Kensai class added directly to your fists, not your unarmed strike, thus you should be able to stack it with the others. I ruled that BoS and the class feature of the Kensai class are virtually identical and would not stack with each other and to stop pushing it. If you buy into her argument, it would bring the total TO to +1/+37.

5) Under RAW, Defending adds to all other bonuses including itself, so, in theory, if you had 20 defending +5 weapons at the ready, you could increase your AC by a hundred. In my game, I have ruled that the way it reads, you have to use the weapon in combat. I felt this would limit it to a +10, because if a TWF wants to use two defending weapons, hey, go for it.

I forgot how many different means of Unarmed Strike a monk has.

So, if you take a ward cestus, make it +1, add defending, you can put it on your off hand and have it at the ready. It only costs 8,000 gp.

Now take a ward cestus, add +1, Defending, and Opposable. Opposable allows the weapon to be wielded by a non-standard limb. Monks can make an unarmed strike with fists, feet, elbows, and knees. So buy yourself 6 of these for 16,000 each.

Then she intended to buy an amulet of mighty fists.

In the only use of Amulet of Mighty Fists I have ever seen that was ACTUALLY cost effective, it would have boosted all 8 Ward Cestus up to a +5, which are all defending. Now, to do what she wanted normally, it would require 6 +7 weapons at 98,000 gp each. and one +6 weapon at 72,000 for a whopping 660,000 gp.

Her method had the same effect and only cost 266,000 gp. I should point out that she ditched this shortly after figuring it out because, "She wants to look pretty." When someone pointed out that multiple strips of leather with "thumbs" would be gripping her various body parts and that would look, and I quote, "Hawt", she had what could only be described as a full body seizure, then promptly ditched the plan to buy multiple ward cestus.

It also brings our final total up to +5 to hit and damage and +28 in WSAs for a total +33 to one two-handed attack.

Now, we have reached the end off what I am permitted by my player to discuss. So I welcome arguments as to why they should not work together because I'm going to eventually update the ward cestus entry and would like this peer reviewed before then.
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Offline zugschef

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Re: Monk Optimization - Improved Unarmed Strike Weapon Special Abilities
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2013, 12:54:51 PM »
honestly, is this a trolling attempt?

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Monk Optimization - Improved Unarmed Strike Weapon Special Abilities
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2013, 01:06:57 PM »
This is some serious houseruling...

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Monk Optimization - Improved Unarmed Strike Weapon Special Abilities
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2013, 07:30:09 PM »
Some of this isn't new to me.

A Necklace of Natural Weapons adds +X to your Unarmed Attacks and Damage.
In turn a Scorpion's Kama deals you Unarmed Damage, so while it wouldn't have a +5 Enhancement Bonus to Attack Rolls (you are attacking with a kama) anything that augments your Unarmed Damage is carried over. Of course various must be wielded and utility effects not withstanding.

I actully posted in our Ask a Question area about using a Battlefist, which is a little less direct, as well and met no opposition.

So again, not new. And this is only part of the reason Unarmed is the best weapon in the game.However I have no clue on how the Dragon stuff is worded.


C

Offline Amechra

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Re: Monk Optimization - Improved Unarmed Strike Weapon Special Abilities
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2013, 07:45:16 PM »
And, of course, the fun part about Scorpion Kamas and such (or, say, the Beast Claw feat) is that, once you've increased your size, the size bonuses stack (your scaled-up Unarmed Strike damage is the base damage for the other weapon, so if you scale that up...)
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Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Monk Optimization - Improved Unarmed Strike Weapon Special Abilities
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2013, 11:22:07 PM »
I am currently breaking down all individual Special Weapons
Nice. I hope you'll be breaking down their cost. Feel free to emulate my point-by-breakdown for evaluating new base weapons usefulness.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Monk Optimization - Improved Unarmed Strike Weapon Special Abilities
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2013, 08:38:17 PM »
If your ripping special abilities, your players will ask for Manyfanged Scorpion's Kama.

Offline Captnq

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Re: Monk Optimization - Improved Unarmed Strike Weapon Special Abilities
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2013, 09:26:43 PM »
No. Not trolling. I'm just a little annoyed at a conversation I just had and decided to kill a few birds with one stone.

As for house ruling, the problem is, I can't find anything in writing that says Weapon Special Abilities DON'T stack. True, Weapon Enhance Bonuses don't stack. But there is no reason you can't put +1d6 Fire damage, +1d6 cold damage, Etc, etc, etc. Furthemore, I do have in writing that Ammo WSAs and The projectile weapon itself's WSAs do stack. So how do I stop someone from using these various ways of adding WSAs to unarmed strike without house ruling.

As for ripping abilities, I'm adding them to the Weapon Handbook in a special Requires DM Approval section. At first I wasn't going to, but then a player made a very valid point.

They aren't making any more official 3.5 material.

The fact of the matter is, the system is stagnant unless you are willing to go with 3rd party or 3.P. Breaking the Special weapons down into the individual WSAs and making an updated list offers a new list of options for players and DMs alike. As my players pointed out, "How many times can we roll for the same Adamantine Axe? Don't dwarves ever put enchantments on these things?"

I've come to hate 3rd party. Nothing is driving me more insane that allowing Pact Magic. Who the hell makes a power that allows you to drop-kick an entire city into the outer darkness? Sigh. I should have read that book a bit more. It seemed reasonable at first glance. Ah well, live and learn.

So if I'm going to keep feeding my players interesting shiney-shiney, I'm at least going to be screwed by quasi-official magic items.


I am currently breaking down all individual Special Weapons
Nice. I hope you'll be breaking down their cost. Feel free to emulate my point-by-breakdown for evaluating new base weapons usefulness.

I have a feeling the answer is obvious, but where oh where might I find this?
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Offline Solo

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Re: Monk Optimization - Improved Unarmed Strike Weapon Special Abilities
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2013, 04:28:46 AM »
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Offline snakeman830

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Re: Monk Optimization - Improved Unarmed Strike Weapon Special Abilities
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2013, 10:27:07 AM »
Fistbeard Beardfist uses Sizing, Throwing, and Returning on his beard.
Why bother with Returning?  Just use your last attack in your Flurry of Blows to go wherever you want like Fisty McFlingerton did :p
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Offline Ananse

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Re: Monk Optimization - Improved Unarmed Strike Weapon Special Abilities
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2013, 06:15:41 AM »
I have been asked to post said player's stats, but I have a policy of not posting a player's stats without permission.

Convenient.

And, of course, the fun part about Scorpion Kamas and such (or, say, the Beast Claw feat)

Beast Strike.

And one is not done until it is combined with Eldritch Claw to double Unarmed Strike damage (plus Eldritch Blast).

Scorpion Kama will strike as an Unarmed Strike once you use Graft Weapon.

Everyone I know that has dealt with Defending weapons, which is a small number, caps the bonus granted at 5, period, from all sources, as a house rule. Anything else than such a cap justifies an infinite number of bonuses, limited only by gold expenditure, since there are an infinite sources of unarmed attacks, shield spikes, etc. (Every entity, or at least every monk, has infinite sources of unarmed attacks RAW. I do not know where Opposable is from as a weapon property, but it is irrelevant to this concept.)

I have been asked why I speak highly of Monks when they suck so bad.

Throwing a quarter of a million gold at any melee concept will result in red-mist level of damage potential at arbitrarily high to-hit results. Monk can neither enhance nor diminish this concept.

Any class using unarmed damage can achieve the same results with this level of wealth -- and at level 16, where this level of wealth would be expected, every competent class should have something better to do.

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Monk Optimization - Improved Unarmed Strike Weapon Special Abilities
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2013, 02:52:50 PM »
Convenient.
And likely

Every entity, or at least every monk, has infinite sources of unarmed attacks RAW.
I had thought that too but just took a look and only see this: A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This is different than the feat.

Throwing a quarter of a million gold at any melee concept will result in red-mist level of damage potential at arbitrarily high to-hit results.
This is very true. The question is whether the cost can be drastically lowered for close to the same results.

Offline Ananse

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Re: Monk Optimization - Improved Unarmed Strike Weapon Special Abilities
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2013, 05:38:47 PM »
Convenient.
And likely

Mine was a reference to legitimacy and efficacy, not probability, but it was not important regardless.

Every entity, or at least every monk, has infinite sources of unarmed attacks RAW.
I had thought that too but just took a look and only see this: A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This is different than the feat.

I know; that was one of the early inconsistencies of 3.x I noticed years ago, and I remember because there wasn't much commentary on the web about it. Here's the problem: the wotc writers, being terrible hacks, allocate a lot of "unarmed strike" language in the monk writeup. I admit I don't have any examples on hand right now -- I'm away from book(s) -- but I do know that this habit was ridiculously persistent and actually made a lot of 3.0 utterly confusing, and for some people unplayable without houseruling when it came to unarmed strikes. The problem here is is that it's impossible to declare that the unarmed strike doesn't have infinite sources because even a real-world check (the last resort of an exacting gamer) presents us with martial arts that use every body part imaginable. And note what you didn't read in the Imp. Unarmed Strike description: you didn't read that the strike referred only to punching.

It gets worse. If you would re-review your own link, you would note that there is "no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed." So if I do not strike "as a monk," I can two-weapon and multiattack unarmed to my heart's content, right?

So what is a monk strike? What's a non-monk strike?

The answer is obvious. There's not really any such thing. The authors were shitty writers and everyone in the universe who paid for this text overpaid. It's gibberish masquerading as game rules. So no matter who you are, if you've played d20 and resolved someone striking someone else with a punch, you were houseruling.

And that's fine. We just have to be careful that we don't run back to the text and try to get blood from that stone.

Anyway, because the idea of a "monk-only" strike in a class-based game which literally has no concept of a "class-only" strike anywhere else in its voluminous texts is one of the stupidest things in the history of stupid, so I conclude -- keeping in mind that my conclusion is ultimately a houserule because, well, see above -- that there's no such thing and that the monk text is actually describing how unarmed strikes in d20 work. For everyone.

Keep in mind that, if you disagree, there's still no text in Imp. Unarmed Strike that explains, like in the monk writeup, how unarmed strikes work, so if you decide that there's not an infinite number of unarmed strike sources, you're adding to the text, and, therefore, houseruling. Which, again, is fine, but not applicable to every table.

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Monk Optimization - Improved Unarmed Strike Weapon Special Abilities
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2013, 07:01:09 PM »
If you would re-review your own link, you would note that there is "no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed." So if I do not strike "as a monk," I can two-weapon and multiattack unarmed to my heart's content, right?

So what is a monk strike? What's a non-monk strike?
No, it doesn't change non-monk IASers.

A monk strike is with the few body parts listed in the quote for monks. Body parts other than that don't seem to be supported. The naked monk jokes require a DM houserule it seems.

For non-monks with IAS, they are using the unarmed strike weapon as their primary. I'm not really all that worried about TWF monks. Meh

Offline Ananse

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Re: Monk Optimization - Improved Unarmed Strike Weapon Special Abilities
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2013, 08:16:00 PM »
If you would re-review your own link, you would note that there is "no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed." So if I do not strike "as a monk," I can two-weapon and multiattack unarmed to my heart's content, right?

So what is a monk strike? What's a non-monk strike?
No, it doesn't change non-monk IASers.

A monk strike is with the few body parts listed in the quote for monks.

With respect, this is meaningless. By that logic, a character can do an unarmed strike "as a monk" then do another unarmed strike "as not-a-monk" in the same turn and get different game-mechanical results. What does that even mean?

But, yeah, the upside here is that all this is about a sub-par subsystem anyway, so it doesn't really matter, pratically speaking, what your houserule is. I suppose that's. . . good?

(But where this gets ridiculous is when the Pathfinder designers come in, note the poor writing, and then exploit it to hammer in a set of even more self-contradictory rules in order to stomp on a class that makes them feel small in the pants when they're playing wizards -- it seems that publishers have much more serious mental health problems with monks than players do.

But I digress.)

(Btw, to continue the digression, as bad as Pathfinder is/can be, it did just provide a roundabout way to get a monk who's wearing armor without losing monk Wis/scaling AC bonuses, and even lets you stack them with Swordsage's equivalent. . . but via 3rd-party material, so it's semi-official. But I bet most tables accept it. Digression over, for reals this time.)

Offline linklord231

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Re: Monk Optimization - Improved Unarmed Strike Weapon Special Abilities
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2013, 08:53:59 PM »
By a strict reading of RAW, enchanting the Bracers of Striking (as they appear in Magic of Faerun, I'm not sure if they were updated elsewhere) doesn't actually do anything.  They're not weapons, and the text doesn't say that enchantments applied to them are also applied to your unarmed strike.

I'm not familiar enough with 3.0 weapon sizes and their conversion to 3.5 to make an informed call about the Ward Cestus trick, but she'd look rather silly whether it's RAW or not.  It's like stuffing both your hands into an oversized boxing glove, so that you can punch with both hands at the same time.

What book is the Opposable enchantment found in? 
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Offline Ananse

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Re: Monk Optimization - Improved Unarmed Strike Weapon Special Abilities
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2013, 04:11:16 AM »
By a strict reading of RAW, enchanting the Bracers of Striking (as they appear in Magic of Faerun, I'm not sure if they were updated elsewhere) doesn't actually do anything.

That is absolutely correct. Authorial intent is gleanable -- they require magic fang or magic weapon in order to be created. (And reading magic weapon just gives one another headache about what the hell a monk strike is -- seriously, wotc, HoL was written better than this, no joke.) So one could conclude they're meant to be another way for unarmed fighters to grab enchantments, but man, that's really obscure.

I couldn't find Opposable either.

Offline bruceleeroy

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Normally, I would be reading this, open the reply box, decide what I had to say didn't need said, and close out. But this is just too ridiculous.



Offline linklord231

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Re: Monk Optimization - Improved Unarmed Strike Weapon Special Abilities
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2013, 11:16:56 AM »
Ah I see. The whole "must be able to stand without the limb in question" bit means she can't strap ward cestae to her feet, and if you check out the definition of "limb" you'll find that humans only have 4 (2 arms, 2 legs, and the head doesn't count). So she can't wield more than 2 ward cestae at a time using Opposable, which she could do anyway.
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