[D&D 3.5] Swift Action Touch Spell + Full Attack in The Same Turn

[IserLuick]

Hi everyone!

I'm currently playing a Duskblade in a Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 game with my friends and we got into an extended talk with the dungeon master because I intended to do the following in one turn with all my actions:

1.- Using the Duskblade's Quick Cast class feature, I cast a Vampiric Touch as a swift action on the enemy.
2.- I do a full attack using the remaining actions.

The master argued that I can't do that, because I'm making a touch attack to deliver the vampiric touch and therefore I can't do the full attack. A friend and me said that the touch attack is granted with the casting, that it should not affect the remaining actions because, otherwise, with almost all the touch spells, you would need one standard action to cast the spell and another one to make the touch attack and deliver it, but all the touch spells can be delivered on the same turn that you cast them, and you're using only 1 standard action.

He said that the Quick Cast allowed me to cast the Vampiric Touch spell more quicly, but that doesn't include the touch attack to deliver the spell. I argued that there are no rules that say that, and the Quick Cast would be pretty useless with touch attacks if I had to spend a swift action for casting only and still needed a standard action to deliver the spell (It would be the same as just casting the spell normally), and the touch attack should be included in the swift action without affecting the other actions.

I tried to search for rules that clarify this issue, but I haven't been able to find any, what do you think? Are there any rules that support any side of this discussion?

If I didn't explain myself correctly, please let me know and I'll fix it.

Thanks a lot for your attention! 

[NunoM]

The way i always played it, casting a touch spell includes the delivery. I always considered it as a sort of somatic component or a free attack (if necessary) to deliver it. This is further supported by the fact that many spells allow multiple touch targets, regardless of the BAB of the caster (ex.: Teleport). If a "normal" attack was needed to deliver the spell, a caster might be forced to deduce the number of touches (to unwilling targets) from the number of attacks allowed by the BAB. In the case of the Teleport spell, that would deny the purpose of the spell altogether, because a 9th lvl Wizard, has a lousy BAB!!!

In addition, as per the ruling on table 8-2 of the PHB p.141, casting and delivering the spell that way is a free action that doesn't provoke an AoO.

If i was DMing it and you were trying to do a full-attack after the casting, however, I wouldn't allow you to move before delivering the spell, as granted by the ruling on "Touch Spells in Combat" (PHB, p.140-141).

[Slaughterhouserock]

You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch as many willing targets as you can reach as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell.

Found here, emphasis mine.  The only thing I see holding it back is the "willing" qualifier.

[Kethrian]

Here's what the Rules Compendium has to say on the matter:

Allies and Touch Spells: ...
You can move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. If you use a full-round action to touch multiple targets, you can take only a 5-foot step.
Opponents and Touch Spells: To use a touch spell against an opponent during combat, you cast the spell and then touch that opponent. You can touch the opponent on the same turn you cast the spell.  To touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll to make a melee touch attack. You can hold the charge and move as defined for touching allies.

And then further on, under Weaponlike Spells (which are earlier defined as any spell that requires an attack roll), it states:

Attacks
Casting time takes precedence over normal rules for attacks, unless a spell’s description says otherwise.  If a spell allows its caster to make multiple attacks and has a casting time of 1 standard action, all those attacks occur during that standard action. The caster uses the highest applicable attack bonus for each attack in such a case.

So yes, a quickened spell would allow you to deliver the touch as part of the swift casting, and would allow you to even cast, move, then touch, and, if you only moved up to your speed, still have a standard action left.

[IserLuick]

Wow! Thanks a lot for all your replies! 

I've shown this forum topic to my DM, we're almost out of the doubt with this, but we're still not sure if the touch attack of the spell is granted by the spell itself or if it consumes one of your attacks for the purpose of making a full attack after casting it as a swift action.

To support my argument in favor of this topic, I've found on the Rules Compendium the following text unther the Action Types section:

During a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform an immediate action or a swift action, and as many free actions as your DM allows. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action. Activities can also be undertaken that are parts of other actions but not actions in and of themselves.

This is also explained in the Player's Handbook, p. 139 under the Action Types section as "Not an Action":

Not an Action: Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don’t take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else. For instance, using the Use Magic Device skill (page 85) while trying to activate a device is not an action, it is part of the standard action to activate a magic item.

If we refer to touch spells, the touch attack  has to be considered as an inherent part of the spell; therefore, it does not take an aditional action (so you can cast, move and deliver the spell on the same turn, for example) and it should not affect your full attack if you haven't moved and you have used only the swift action for the quickened spell.

We're almost done! What do you think?

Thanks a lot for the help!

[NunoM]

Regarding the delivery part of the spell, i think it's perfectly clear by now.
Summing up: delivering a touch spell normally (i.e. not channeling) doesn't require an action, or you could assume it as part of the action of casting the spell. Against unwilling targets it requires a touch attack, which is made at the highest BAB, no matter how many touches are needed.

Which, BTW, is nice to a Duskblade with "Chill Touch" too. If you have "Vampiric Touch", you should have 9+ touches available for "Chill Touch", by now, if you don't channel it with the 13th level Duskblade ability. I'm pretty sure you won't find many willing targets for that spell...

Regarding the movement part, i think you're headed the right way (no pun intended), IMO.
If you limit yourself to a 5ft. movement, or don't move at all, to deliver the spell, you should be able to perform the full-attack.

[NunoM]

I've been giving this some more thought...

It just feels wrong to allow multiple attacks + full-attack... I think a reasonable compromise could be:
- Willing targets: touch as many as you can reach
- Non-willing targets: perform as many attacks as you're allowed to by your BAB and/or other effects (such as "Haste").

This means you could deliver a quickened "Cure light wounds" or "Teleport" spell as part of the casting to as many willing targets as you can reach, but, for offensive uses (i.e. against unwilling targets) some higher degree of focus is needed, hence needing an attack.

Bottom line: Quickened "Vampiric Touch" won't work if followed by a full-attack, unless the targets are willing (good luck with that...). "Chill Touch" allows for multiple touches, so you can quick-cast it, deliver some of the touches allowed using your full-attack in the same round, and the rest in subsequent rounds the same way. If you cast it as a standard action, you're still allowed to perform a single attack to deliver it during that round.
You're better off using the quickened spell for buffs ("Bull's Strength"), battlefield control/area spells ("Color Spray") or movement ("Dimension Hop"), than for targeted offensive spells.

EDIT: typos

[IserLuick]

Well, I finally got to an agreement with my DM!

As we could simply not make our points solid enough, we justified the quick cast and the full attack with the folowing use:

1.- I use Quick Cast to use a Vampiric Touch, I hold the charge.
2.- I begin a full-attack and the first attack will be the touch attack for the delivery of the Vampiric Touch (I'll probably have a kind of Two Weapon fighting penalty, because I'm using a Greatsword and I have to hold it with one hand to deliver the spell with the other hand).
3.- I do the remaining attacks with the sword (holding it woth both hands, no penalty), using Arcane Channeling to cast another spell, like a Shocking Grasp or another Vampiric Touch.

Another way that I can use this, would be the following:

1.- I activate my boots of speed to get the Haste effect.
2.- I do a full-attack with my sword using Arcane Channeling.
3.- I do the Quick Cast before using the extra attack greanted by the Haste.
4.- I spend the extra attack to deliver the spell.

This sound pretty decent and well-justified to me, what do you think? 

[NunoM]

Here's my take...

Sequence #1:
You're free to use the "Vampiric Touch" as the off-hand attack and use the greatsword for the full-attack [channeling], but, IMO, you still incur in the penalties for TWF when using the greatsword. The fact that it's being used two-handed doesn't matter. It's roughly the same as using the greatsword and an additional attack with armor spikes, for example.

TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. Fighting in this way is very hard, however, and you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. [...]

(emphasis mine)

The way i see it, the penalties apply because of the fighting style you're using (i.e. you're coordinating yourself to deliver two sets of attacks with different weapons) and not because you're wielding a weapon in each hand; as you know, there are some other ways to gain off-hand attacks and they all incur in the same penalties. Wielding a weapon in each hand is just one of them.

If it makes you feel any better, you can still decide which one of the weapons is considered the main weapon (in your case, the greatsword), and you can also choose to strike with your "Vampiric Touch" off-hand attack first. This means your highest penalty for TWF will be applied to the touch attack, so, all-and-all, you still have a nice chance to hit.


Situation #2:
If you full-attack with Arcane Channel, you don't have to recast the spell to use it in the extra attack granted by Haste. The extra attack is added to the full set of attacks you're allowed during the full-attack, so you arcane channel the original spell in that extra attack as well.

Also on this, i'm not sure you can stop a full-attack action to cast a spell, even a quickened one... I can even assume it's possible, 'cause a swift action is basically a free action with another name and limitations, so i can go with that; but you're using a greatsword for the full-attack, and you switch to the hand to deliver the touch attack. If you did this in a game i was DMing, i would call it TWF and apply the appropriate penalties.