Author Topic: Hatchet Job Port Thread  (Read 60021 times)

Offline Toptomcat

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Re: Hatchet Job Port Thread
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2013, 12:13:35 AM »
Why Tier 1s are in Tier 1.
by Gr1lledcheese

It was brought up that there's no set explanation for why low tier classes are generally less effective. With that in mind, I figured I'd start one. I'll be doing one for each tiers, but I want to get the low tiers out of the way first, because most people know why classes like Wizards and Druids are above average. I'm looking for your input on the classes, and to make this a guide for people new to CO. Thanks to all who contribute in advance.

From JaronK's Tier System For Classes guide, the widely accepted Char Op base power description thread:

Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

Examples: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer, Erudite

A note about an unlisted class: "Psionic" Artificer deserves a mention.
No one has taken an extended look at it.
Psi X / Magic interactions suck.
Psi Recharge available at level 1, more a problem of recharge set-ups, than how Psi Arty does it better.
Linked Power allows Wand-ificer cheese, but on the cheap ... I mean real cheap.
Dorje is a Wand that can have higher than level 4s on it.
Oh hey, Erudite Spell to Power puts spells into the psionics realm.
Oh hey, Dragon #349 put Divine spells into the psionics realm.

If there is a Tier Zero, Psi Arty deserves it, but again ... it's more a Psi X problem, than the class being anything anyone has looked at or bork't. -Awaken DM Golem


Why Tier 1s are Tier 1:

Wizard:

A quote from an old thread about wizards.

Quote
Originally from Ongorth:

Another really funny party was Fighter, Wizard, Wizard, Nymph. Both of the wizards focused on control spells, with one favoring summons and the other favoring defensive stuff. Basically, this party was the exact opposite (even though the fighter in this party was one of the fighers in the other party) of the other. They simply did not so any damage, instead completely looking up the fight with stunning gaze, acid fog, wall of ________, trips, summoned elementals, etc. while slowly chipping the opponent away. Every combat took a long time to resolve, but usually it was a forgone conclusion early on. The opponents would get seperated and stalled while the fighter individually pounded them. For a powerful single opponent would be subjected to repeated save-or-abilities from behind barriers of spell created obstacles and the fighter. Probably the most "professional" party I'd ever been in, from the perspective that they always were able to solve every encounter they faced with a clear, efficient strategy that was often ad-libbed and always effective.

It also helped convince me that the game is less fun with two wizards, because you really, really always have a solution to every problem as a standard action, even when both wizards are intentionally limiting their spell lists for thematic and balance concerns.

This is more to silence those who would claim that wizards are really only powerful when they get to abuse supposed loopholes in the game, such as infinite wishes, spamming major creation or how they presumably always have the "perfect" spell for the job, despite having to prepare their spells beforehand. Even when playing them at a fraction of their capabilities, they should still be able to eclipse the rest of the non-casters. -Runestar

Cons: You have to pay a trivial amount for spell knowledge above and beyond the stuff you gain for leveling.  And if your GM is a major jackass, you may have to put a small amount of resources into protecting your spellbook - an eternal wand of hoard gullet, perhaps, or something similar.  Your HP and BAB are fairly low, unless you buff your con. -The_Mad_Linguist
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Your power starts slow.  Unlike even many Rogues, at level 1 you're stuck in back judiciously using your small number of level 1 and 0 spells while the front-liners get to feel continually special.  (Even tier 5s and 6s can shine at level 1 and laugh at the Wizard.  Then the Wizard levels and outshines them brighter than Daylight.)  Hopefully you packed Cloudy Conjuration or some means of giving your spells some extra oomf.  At best, you have 5 level 1 slots at level 1 from being a 20+ INT Focused Specialist.  More likely, you'll have 3 or 4.

Managing until about level 5 when you can safely cast a spell or two every fight and not feel like you're wasting your resources is a challenge, if only to your patience.  Things tend to get much easier from there, unless your DM is annoying and repeatedly targets your spellbook, imprisons you naked, sends Antimagic Field-generating creatures at you, or decides to "challenge" you by stripping you of your highest level spell slots on a whim.

Another problem is spell selection:  There are often too many good spells for me to choose at a given level.  What spells do I pick when my Conjurer hits level 3:  Mirror Image and Glitterdust; Invisibility and Web; Rope Trick and Cloud of Bewilderment?  Complete Arcane's Collegiate Wizard and Races of the Wild's Elven Generalist increase the number of free spells known, but these aren't always available or optimal.

Scrolls you want aren't guaranteed to be available on demand to pad your lean spellbook, but when you can Teleport across the world in minutes, your odds drastically improve.  Cost is a significant factor unless your DM says you can use Secret Page to make spellbooks with every spell in the game at no charge, or you find another method.  WotC assumes Wizards pay gold for their extra spells and don't use money tricks like spamming Water to Acid then selling the acid, or binding farms of Efreet for all the Wishes they want.  (I'm not saying being a Wish farmer is necessarily a bad thing, but I am saying your DM is probably a reasonable person who disapproves of your trying to shortcut your way to divinity and ignoring his plot hooks.  Your DM has feelings too, and he probably doesn't want to play alone.)

Sometimes, Wizard players become rampantly annoying when they ask their DMs what sorts of limits he puts on their power.  "Can I use Shadow Miracle?  Can I make a Simulacrum of a Solar to keep in my Bag of Holding?  How soon can I turn this peaceful farming village into a hooker/terrorist/necromancer/ludicrously profitable encampment?  What do you mean I can't cast the spells of my new Polymorph form?  What's so bad about using Genesis to create a plane of pure gold/platinum/diamond/obdurium that only I can access with a hole in the middle big enough for my construct army to mine out?"

Playing a Wizard effectively requires preparation, planning, and the ability to anticipate your DM's actions out of character.  Some people consider this cheating or unsporting, but if you weren't so smart out of character, why play a Wizard?

Also, your spell selection is largely at the DM's whim.  If your DM prevents you from expanding your spellbook, you're effectively an INT-based Sorcerer with less spontanaeity, stuck in the less comfortable realm between low tier 1 and high tier 2.  This is especially true if your DM forbids Elven Generalist, Domain Wizard, Collegiate Wizard, or other means of cheaply expanding your spellbook.

By comparison, if a typical Cleric or Druid loses access to a spell or domain, there's typically little problem since they know EVERY spell on their list.  If the DM doesn't like Druids casting Flame Strike, it's no biggie; just Wild Shape and instead cast Flaming Sphere or Vortex of Teeth or Creeping Cold or... -Endarire

Pros: At every level, you have an "I-win" button.  From the lowly "Power word: Pain" to the mighty shapechange, and anywhere in between, you rule supreme.  Your spellcasting stat, intelligence, is optimal (with the exception of a hypothetical constitution-based spellcaster).  You only really have one ability score to raise, so even in low point buy you aren't going to be less powerful - just slightly squishier. 

A wide range of prestige class options are open to you, and the access to bonus feats makes it easier to qualify for them.

At first level, you possess the most fungible assets of any party member, as well as scribe scroll.

The single spell "Contact Other Plane" is so useful that it removes any downside for having prepared casting, and that's without truly abusing it.

With access to wish, time stop, genesis, and ice assassin, there is absolutely nothing that a Wizard20 cannot do.  Scry&fry is a trivial example.

Basically, a wizard can learn any of the hundreds of spells that are broken in some circumstance or another. With divinations, you'll know which ones you'll need to prepare. -The_Mad_Linguist
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One of the facets about wizards that I find the most broken is how much stronger he gets with a bit of forethought and prep-work.

So many spells are of Permanent or Instantaneous duration that can be used and abused to the point of ridiculousness (and can generally be accessed far, far sooner than would generally be expected). Spells like astral projection, clone, simulacrum, and explosive runes (yes, I prepared them this morning) can be used in ways to make yourself nigh invincible, and there's definitely a reason why the last one I mentioned has the initials E.R.

Unlike most other classes, who can generally only buffer themselves against most effects (such as improving their AC), wizards have access to so many spells that render them untouchable, with a bit of forethought. Simply telling someone, "no, you can't affect me 'cuz I'm 100% immune" is a sure way to survive an encounter with mundane and exotic critters alike. Protection from arrows, wind wall, ironguard, polymorph, mind blank, true seeing, protection from good/evil/law/chaos, protection from vermin, shapechange, and a whole host of other spells can render threats to entire campaign worlds null and void.

Wizards also have myriad ways of increasing their spellcasting prowess both inside and out of combat: ioun stones, metamagic rods, pearls of power, rods of absorption, staves, wands, scrolls, rings of wizardry, spell-storing weapons, and a slew of other items are specifically designed to do horrible things to a given game (and those are just in Core). That's not even including the in-game strategies a wizard has access to. And Reserve Feats.

Have I mentioned that even low-level spells can essentially take down encounters by themselves at near-epic levels? Properly utilized, even grease and silent image can render creatures of amazingly high CR down to mere trivialities to kill. I'm sure there's a way to do the same with prestidigitation, if someone really tried.

Heck, four 4th level wizards, properly equipped, could take down the tarrasque. Fly + Melf's acid arrow for the win. -Lycanthromancer
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Being able to kill people with your mind makes for an excellent scenario akin to Revenge of the Nerds.  As the saying goes, a high level Fighter can hit stuff really hard.  A high level Wizard can remake existence in less than a round's time on his chosen plane.  As another saying goes, "In mortality, the shortest way to divinity is through wizardry."

A level 15 Wizard worth his spells is effectively a demigod, able to turn X into Y, go where he pleases on this plane and that, blow stuff up because it doesn't belong there, give life to Simulacrums of his favorite dragons/outsiders, call his favorite deity via Contact Other Plane and get scooped on what spells to prepare for that time period, Clone himself a backup self, and enslave cities with Charm/Dominate >>all in the same day.<<  (Really, a Wizard can access every spell if only indirectly.  A Solar casts spells as a Cleric20.  An Efreeti can emulate L6 Druid spells, and there's probably some extraplanar Archivist, Psion, Erudite, Artificer, <class name> who'd be willing to help you for a large enough bribe or a strong enough Charm/Dominate Monster.  Gate one in and have a ball, or better yet, a Prismatic Sphere!)

If someone uses the phrase, "A Wizard did it!" you can choose to take credit without speaking a word.

A Wizard knows a lot.  Potentially, he knows everything.  More likely, he knows the relevant stats of any CR-appropriate fight and then some.  A level 5 Wizard who boosts his INT and Knowledge checks could go to some random stranger, take 10, and tell them all their childhood secrets.  Even the DM might be creeped out at that. -Endarire


Cleric:

Cons: Often requires Divine Metamagic (Which is occasionally banned) and Nightsticks (may be banned or demoted to un-stackable). Needs to have some idea of domains chosen (although that's only at low levels).

Undead Creation is often Evil, and thus banned for Good clerics. This also extends to other aligned spells. Rebuking is considered much stronger than turning undead.

PrC'ing is a must. You really don't get anything by staying in Cleric.

Just because you're a cleric, people will be expecting you to heal. This is a trap. Healing in combat has proved to be not as optimal as other actions.

Feat heavy. Clerics usually require 3 feats (Extend spell, persist spell, and divine metamagic), and may require additional feats to qualify for PrC's.

You have an aura. Specifically, you are a giant neon sign to anyone who uses the Detect alignment spells. -Chaos Josh

Pros: Divine Metamagic: Persist is easily their best trick. The ability to make spells such as Divine Power, Righteous Wrath, Lesser Vigor, etc. etc. last all day is one of the best tricks for buffing and forgetting about it. This is especially useful for breaking the metamagic cap, and spontaneously using metamagic.

If you need skill points, Cloistered Cleric is the ACF for you. You'll gain 4 skill points/level, a form of bardic knowledge, additional spells and free use of the Knowledge Domain, while only losing on average 1 hp and medium armor profs (which is made up by some PrCs) (The loss of BAB is covered by Divine Power).

Clerics gain some of the best minion creation spells in the game. This includes the summon monster line, gate, planar ally, animate dead, etc. This is not including what a cleric may have by rebuking enemies, either.

Domain spells, and also the domain powers can be very helpful. This also makes a one level dip in cleric good for almost any build. You could potentially gain 2 feats AND the ability to use all cleric scrolls/wands/staves including those of your domain spells. Heck, having the Magic domain for a 1 level dip means you net wizard/sorcerer magic items as well. You can even pick up Trap Finding, Uncanny Dodge, or many other class features through this dip. And lets not forget that some even give you a +1-2 to caster level on certain spells, or even the ability to turn additional creatures. This isn't including the Divine Magician class feature in Complete mage, giving you any 9 wizard spells (1 per level) from specific schools.

Some devotion feats are strong, and are also powered by turning as well. These include using Travel devotion to move and full attack, animal devotions to gain flight/bonuses to Str, or additional hit/damage with Knowledge devotion. You get more devotion feats than the other classes as well. (potential of 3 as opposed to 2).

You have effectively ALL cleric spells on your spell list. You are not some sissy with a book that he needs to protect, or loaded to the brim with scrolls/wands like the artificer. This is an advantage whenever a PrC says something like "Able to cast seven different divination spells, one of which must be 3rd level or higher." or similar.

They get the very nice Divine Insight, which gives up to +15 insight to a single skill check (is discharged). This is powerful if you consider Knowledge devotion, and even without may replace the rogue (although going on that route may make the dungeon take more time).

You get Quicken spell. This doesn't seem that much better than the other tier 1's, until you realize that you can take Divine Metamagic: Quicken, breaking the metacap as well.

4 turning attempts are worth 7,500g. Hurrah for nightsticks.

You can buy a +4 to CL for 10 mins. for 20,000g. And it's Core as well.

Animate Dead Abuse: Combining Desecrate and animate dead could potentially net you a 10-headed Hydra zombie. At 5th level. Effectively a 75 hp tank with 10 attacks/round. Costs a bundle on Onyx though...

There's a lot of broken things you can do with clerics as well. Sure, everyone knows that Druids have wildshape, and wizards can create different planes, but do they have spiffy names like the Twice Betrayer of Shar or the Cheater of Mystra. The main broken thing, unlike the Planar Shepard or Incantrix, is that they rely on not prestige classes, but a feat. Initiate of Mystra allows you the ability to cast in antimagic fields. You can cast antimagic field. With Ocular Spell, you can persist antimagic fields. There's also Greater Compulsive Field abuse (Gain +2 str, 1d8 hp, and +1 CL by killing 1 commoner. Run through the town!).

There are so many GOOD cleric prestige classes. This adds to the variety of Cleric builds. Just going by the handbook here on BG's there is:
Bone Knight
Church Inquisitor
Contemplative
Divine Oracle
Malconvoker
Ordained Champion
Prestige Paladin
Radiant Servant
Ruby Knight Vindicator
Sacred Exorcist
Sacred Fist
Seeker of the Misty Isle
Sovereign Speaker
Thaumaturgist
Dweomerkeeper

Borderline SAD. You only really need Wis, as it's the main casting stat. Every other stat could be a 10, but it's handy to have them higher. Not as SAD as say, Druids, due to lacking transformation skills (Without domain choices, however. A cleric with the transformation domain can persist a Polymorph at 9th level.)

The basic class is one of the best. Two good saves (being the important ones), a d8 HD, and 3/4 BAB are pretty good. The ability to cast regardless of armor, while also being proficient in it, is a sole feature of the Cleric in this tier (well, at lower levels anyhow). (For all it's worth, it's not important, but it is a pro).
-Chaos Josh

Druid:

The druid is a true powerhouse of a class due to the sheer versatility and power of its three main class features: wild shaping, spells, and animal companions.  Able to function as a tank (or 2 tanks with wild shape and animal companion), summoner, battlefield controller, damage-dealer, scout (both with wildshape and with divinations), and healer, the druid is extremely flexible. -Akalsaris

Cons: - Most prestige classes are traps for the druid, as very few advance the things a druid cares about.  Nature's Warrior, Master of Many Forms, and Blighter are all far weaker than straight druid.  Planar Shephard is the only PrC that possibly surpasses straight druid, while Moonspeaker and Contemplative both give some things and take away some things.

- Very feat-tight.  A druid gets 0 bonus feats and must take Natural Spell at 6th (don't argue this one), so every feat it takes must do a hell of a lot for the build, especially on a non-human.  A summoner's feats are practically locked into Spell Focus (Conj), Ashbound/Greenbound, Augment Summoning, Natural Spell, Rapid Spell, and Elemental Summoning, for example.

- Spells are alignment-limited and the druid must have a neutral component to her alignment, which can limit the spell list sometimes, especially for summoning.  Neutral (True Neutral) is easily the safest alignment in this regard, completely sidestepping the restrictions.

- Very few worthwhile alternative class features, unlike the wizard or cleric.  The Shapeshift Druid is alright, but trades 2 good class features for one mediocre class feature. -Akalsaris

Pros: - The chassis: Druids have medium-high hitpoints, medium BAB, medium skills/level, medium-low armor and weapon proficiencies, and high fort/will saves.  All decent, but not particularly strong, though the saves are quite nice.

- Spells: the most powerful tool in a druid's arsenal.  First level starts off strong with Entangle, a very long-range battlefield control spell, and only gets better from there on.  With a fast spell progression and wisdom based casting, the druid also has dozens of supplements' worth of spells to cherry-pick from, as she can cast any spell on her list with preparation.  The ability to spontaneously cast Nature's Ally spells is another strong ability for summoning-focused druids, and can be helpful even to other kinds.  Druid spells are typically either utility, battlefield control, or damaging, with a large sprinkling of divinations, healing, and buff spells.  The Spell Compendium is notable for nerfing a lot of former druid staples, but introducing a ton of other excellent spells, especially self-buffs.

- Wild Shape: The next most powerful tool a druid has, at its best, wild shape allows a druid to cherry-pick through a dozen sourcebooks for animal forms that are the best answer to any given situation.  Even if only limited to the Monster Manual, wild shape gives tremendous flexibility and allows druids of 8th level or higher to completely ignore Str and Dex in character creation, freeing up points for other stats.  It also makes the druid's weak armor and weapon proficiencies a non-issue.

- Animal Companion: The linchpin to the druid's power, the animal companion is like having .5 more party members.  At low levels it can function as a support tank, and at higher levels it can either be used to provide the party's less awesome members with flight, or it can become a tank in of itself.  Dinosaurs especially are good at almost all levels.  With 1 or 2 buffs such as a shared Bite of the Wereboar or an Animal Growth spell, the animal companion can easily match the party's fighter in tanking and damage output.

- Other class features: To top it off, the other druid abilities are pretty solid as well.  Nature Sense is effectively a +2/+2 skills feat, while Wild Empathy is like a free, albeit limited, Diplomacy score.  Venom Immunity is useful for evil druids who want to use poisons, while Timeless Body means that a druid starting at high levels can begin with +3 to all mental stats without the physical drawbacks. -Akalsaris
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More cons for druids: doesn't (easily) get access to time stop and wish. At this tier it's a consideration.  If you're playing gamebreaking characters, not having access to a couple of gamebreaking techniques is significant especially when a lowly sorcerer CAN get those tricks. -Rebel7284


Archivist:

Cons: Dual stat casting*:  This is a real disadvantage, meaning you can'T truly focus on one stat,  since your spell DC's are based on your intel, and your bonus spells per day are based on your wisdom.

No domain access*: The domains are a great advantage, and the archivist does not, unfortunately, have access to them.  At least, not without multiclassing. Domains are there for the spells, yes, but also for the domain powers!!  Undeath grants extrat urning, planning grants extend spell, luck grants rerolls, travel grants freedom of movement, these are all awesome abilities.

No turn undead.*  A staple of the divine spellcasters is their ability to channel turn undead attempts into divine metamagic.  Unfortunately, you can't do that if you'Re an archivist, again, some prestige classes grant it, but then it means you get them later.

Basically, IMO, while the archivist is GREATLY versatile, way more than the cleric, he is someone lacking in other departments and this is why i have yet to play one (althought my next level 1 character might be an archivist...) -Alastar

Sacred exorcist, while being very good for the archivist, is not ideal for all campaigns, as it requires you to be good, as well as :''Only characters judged by their church to be examplary in faith and devotion, strong of will and upright in morality, are made exorcists''

I mean, it's not HARD to do, but maybe no everybody wants to be an exorcist/archivist.
*-See JaronK's pro section.
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The time factor allows DMs to stop Archivists from actually getting the good spells if you don't have access to magic marts or a Warlock.  Also, the fact that you're a divine spellcaster may make your party want you to be a healbot.  If so, make sure to dip Sacred Exorcist, then persist Lesser Mass Vigor or Vigorous Circle, and tell them to shut up. -JaronK

Pros: Versatility:  With his prayerbook giving him acccess to the whole armada of divine spells out there, the archivist, throught domains, prestige class lists, funky unearthed arcana spell lists and a slew of other things, can get virtually any spell he wants in his prayerbook, some of them at a lower level then a normal cleric!!!  (I'm looking at you lesser restoration)  This is a HUMONGOUS advantage in any game!!

Good skills, with a focus on intelligence, means an archivist can easily take knowledge devotion.  This synergises well with his dark knowledge ability.  The Dark Knowledge ability is a huge boon to the whole party. -Alastar
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I have to say, Archivist dual statting is NOT a serious disadvantage.  If you look at it, the only "dual stat" issue is that they use Wisdom for bonus spells.  This would be annoying, except that they actually get one more spell at a given level than Wizards, so they've effectively got plenty of bonus spells anyway.  Very handy.  As such, they really don't need to boost wisdom much, though it helps.

Furthermore, while Archivists don't get domain abilities, they do get domain spells, which is often the important thing anyway.

And finally, Sacred Exorcist 1 is all you need for Turn Undead, so that's hardly an issue.

Archivists can cast almost any spell in existence, often at very low levels.  Consider for a moment the Dragon Magic Favoured Soul variant that makes every 6th level and below Wizard/Sorc spell exist as a divine spell, and the divine Bard variant.  In fact, I can't think of a single good Wizard/Sorc spell out there that isn't available to an Archivist (technically, you can actually get all Wizard/Sorc spells, but only because of the existance of a 3.0 PrC, the Hexer.  But all the good ones can be gotten without 3.0 material).  Furthermore, because the research rules allow you to research any spell that's a copy of an existing spell (without changing it at all) you can get all the spells you want, limited only by time.  Or you can just have a Warlock make you some scrolls.  Whatever floats your boat.

Also, a lot of spells were created with slow casting progressions in mind (Adept, Ranger, Paladin) and the Archivist can therefor get these spells much faster than intended... and with a Sacred Exorcist dip, you can then pull off stunts like Persistant Swift Haste (Ranger 2).

The Archivist even gets useful class features (namely Dark Knowledge).  Because, you know, casting every divine spell ever just wasn't enough.  -JaronK


Artificer:

Cons: Really complicated. It needed the longest guide ever, just for regular game play ... see the Endymnion (sp?) threads. No CO-er ever made an easyplay or quickstart type guide, perhaps because you can't. -Awaken DM Golem

Pros: Artificers can, effectively, cast any spell in the game.  The only thing remotely as broken as magic spells is magic items.  And the artificer is really good at making and using magic items. -The_Mad_Linguist
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TWF with Wands means, you are two Wizards, but it's expensive. You can torque Caelic off, by just suggesting Artificers CAN'T do something. -Awaken DM Golem
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An optimised craftificer can make magic items ridiculously cheaply (as in at about 2.05 percent of the market price). Furthermore, using a Spell Clock that casts the spell that extracts Ambrosia(from BoED), Leadership, an item of continuous Wrack, and the item that turns pain to pleasure (BoVD), they can have continuously regenerating crafting XP. -Bastian
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As I recall with Artificers, there's a spell that gives you an action point every round... and an ability to cast a spell off wand using an action point instead of a charge.  The first spell is persistable.  Go wand wielding maniac, go!  And don't forget to get your wands off the trapsmith list, so that the level 3 limit isn't as much of an issue. -JaronK


Erudite:

Cons:
Erudite Spell To Power option ONLY !!
(I'm stretching here   ) Not many multiclassing options, not that you need them. You need a party Wizard / Mage Of The Arcane Order, to learn all those yummy spells from, but you get to play the Experience Is A River shuffle. Permanent weakness of the class, is the limited spell/powers choices on round 1, but just round 1 and you get Contigency. No Magic 9s until after Epic Spells ... umm, how's this a problem?
-Awaken DM Golem

Note that Erudite can also get access to Mental Pinnacle, which means he essentially doesn't need to know any of the powers in the spell's description and has unlimited power points without needing to spend feats on it (except the EK for Mental Pinnacle). Note also that while the spell costs a caster his spellcasting ability, the Erudite's manifesting ability would be untouched. -Agita


Pros:
(Erudite Spell To Power option ONLY !!)
Elemental Envoy feat at 1st level, is almost as good as Leadership, but only up to level 6 ... so you dismiss it. Linked Power feat and Imprint Powerstones feat, get around the Powers per day limit well enough. Then you get arcane spells without V or S components. Pay the equivalent to 1 spell level, to eliminate M components; which is superior to Eschew Materials feat. And you get to be a spell point Wizard. Better than any early entry cheese, for Mystic Theurge type builds. UrPriest 2 / Psychic Theurge 7 is an option (yawn). Psionic / Magic translation problems produce spooky actions not at a distance (physics reference). -Awaken DM Golem
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The current summarization does not do justice to the Spell-to-Power variant, as it leaves out their most powerful ability. I'm speaking of Arcane Fusion.

Why does this ability matter? Think of it this way; a Druid becomes pretty much all-powerful upon obtaining Natural Spell. Arcane Fusion is the Spell-to-Power variant Erudite's version of Natural Spell. Because the Erudite's power list is limited only by how willing you are to pay a 400 xp cost (that's for 9th level powers, lower level ones cost less), you can get nearly any spell from every class list.

Now, if having 9th level Psionic Powers, 8th level Arcane Spells, and 7th level Divine Spells isn't enough to justify taking this class to 20th, Arcane Fusion is. Obtainable somewhere around 9th or 11th level, turning Arcane Fusion into a Psionic Power allows you to manifest any 4th level or lower Psionic Power you know for the price of a single 5th level power. This bypasses your Unique Powers/day limit. Great Arcane Fusion does the same thing, but for 7th level and lower powers and at the cost of an 8th level power.

There is some gray area, such as Augmentations, but I'm not going to delve into that complicated mess.


Also, by RAW, an Erudite does not need to prepare his Unique Powers/day; he simply manifests them, and they stick. -Sinfire Titan

Offline Toptomcat

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Re: Hatchet Job Port Thread
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2013, 12:14:24 AM »
Why Tier 2s are Tier 2s

by Gr1lledcheese

It was brought up that there's no set explanation for why low tier classes are generally less effective. With that in mind, I figured I'd start one. I'll be doing one for each tiers, but I want to get the low tiers out of the way first, because most people know why classes like Wizards and Druids are above average. I'm looking for your input on the classes, and to make this a guide for people new to CO. Thanks to all who contribute in advance.

From JaronK's Tier System For Classes guide, the widely accepted Char Op base power description thread:

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potencially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and world shattering, but not in quite so many ways.  Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

Examples: Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Binder (with access to online vestiges)

Why Tier 2s are Tier 2:

Sorcerer:

A note on Sorcerers: Well, the sorcerer and favored soul are obvious examples because they're spontaneous version of tier 1 classes (the wizard and cleric respectively).  They get more spell slots per day, but they have far fewer spells known.  Thus, any one trick of theirs can be just as powerful as a tier 1 caster, but they don't have as many tricks.  Their sheer versatility drops compared to a tier 1 class.  They can completely solo some encounters, but not all encounters.

Of course, smart players will take very versatile spells to maximize each spell known.  Spells like Alter Self/Polymorpth each cover a wide range of possibilities, as do the Summon Monster spells.

Also, being able to spontaneously apply metamagic feats is nice, but the full round action cost really cuts into the action ecconomy.  Being one level behind on their advancement also hurts their power a bit compared to the tier 1s. -Robbypants

Cons: A Sorcerer gets shafted in nearly every way compared to a Wizard.  A Sorcerer's only entry in its class feature table is a familiar which is often quickly traded for a better class feature while Wizards have a familiar, the ability to specialize, a larger skill list, and get a bonus feat every 5 levels.  Regardless, a Sorcerer's primary strength lies in his spell selection which, with minor notable exceptions, is the same as the Wizard's.

Sorcerers know few spells, and many would agree that their spells known list starts small and progresses abysmally slowly.  While a Wizard can spend some cash and pad his repertoire, Sorcerers are meant to be balanced by casting more spells per day spontaneously and requiring less money to be effective.  (If your DM allows you to buy Knowstones, Sorcerers may spend more than Wizards on new spells.)  Were a Sorcerer's 'spells per day' table for each spell he knew instead of total, his stamina would make him a much greater contender for equality with a Wizard.  As it stands, at each level a Sorcerer gains a new spell level, he knows exactly ONE spell of that level that he can cast thrice plus his bonus slots per day.  Meanwhile, a specialist Wizard- the typical modern species- can cast the same number of spells per day and choose to allocate them as he sees fit, assuming the Wizard's INT equals the Sorcerer's CHA.

A Sorcerer4 has more level 1 slots and can spontaneously cast Grease, Mage Armor, or Silent Image 7 times per day and Alter Self 4 times per day, but a level ago while the was Sorcerer fixated on exploiting Silent Image for all he could, the Conjurer was casting Alter Self and forcing Will saves with Glitterdust.  Alter Self is still a spiffy spell, debatably broken, but it's annoyingly using my sole level 2 spell known at this point.  Even if the Conjurer never buys a scroll, he knows 4 spells and has 3 general slots and 1 specialist slot to change on a daily basis.  (If the Conjurer took Collegiate Wizard at level 1, he automatically knows more spells of a spell level than a Sorcerer ever will, unless the Sorcerer learns a buncha spells.)  By the time the Sorcerer levels to 5 and gains another level 2 spell- Glitterdust in this case to keep up- the Conjurer is busy casting level 3 spells and gleefully screaming, "Haste makes waste of mine enemies!"

A Sorcerer knows about as many spells as a specialist Wizard of 4 levels lower has slots.  Assuming he starts with 18 INT, a Conjurer5 has 5 L1 slots, 4 L2s, and 3 L3s.  A Sorcerer9 knows 5 L1s, 4 L2s, 3 L3s, and 2 L4s and can cast them more often, but in terms of L1-3 versatility, the Conjurer's probably ahead.  As a Wizard rises in level and INT, the balance tips farther in his favor and away from the Sorcerer, especially if the Sorcerer isn't higher level.  (In practice, most people only reliably cast spells from their highest 2 spells levels.  Being able to look at my low level spell list, like levels 1 and 2 when I can cast level 5+ spells, and spontaneously cast these low level spells is handy.  A high level Wizard in a similar situation may find it annoying he hasn't looked at this page of his spell list in months, or updated it for that time.)

A Focused Specialist loses 1 more school but gains the casting stamina Sorcerers should have had.  While this FS may only know 2 spells of a spell level, he can cast them so often that he makes the wee Sorcerers cry.  It doesn't help that Andy Collins, one of third edition's designers, hated the Sorcerer class.

Spontaneous casting is lovely and if you know the spell, you can cast it, instead of struggling in the moment and trying to guess the DM's plans.  I strongly believe spontaneous casting is worth far less than what WotC demanded in return for it.  Wizards can cast spontaneously via various tricks, like a Hathran1 with an Acorn of Far Travel granting full spontaneous casting to any prepped class.  (If your DM allows you to preserve the Acorn by full submersion in Quintessence, so much the better.)

A heavily optimized Sorcerer works well in a party with a full-time Wizard so the Sorcerer can learn the spells worth spamming while the Wizard focuses on more situational spells.

With certain tricks, especially ones involving Dragonwrought Kobolds, Sorcerers can learn spells at least as soon as Wizards; however, being a spell level ahead of a Wizard is only meaningful if those spell picks are significantly better than the Wizard's selections.

The Sorcerer class may have been made as a more newbie-friendly version of a Wizard, but it's more of a newbie trap.  While Wizards demand careful planning to be effective on a daily basis and are harder to screw up long-term, Sorcerers demand more long-term optimization to be similarly effective but can spam buttons on a daily basis.  If a Wizard is a person famous for creating marvelous works of original music, a Sorcerer is a band that remixes or plays many of the original songs as a tribute, perhaps adding some spice of their own, but always lurks in the background, hoping to be loved and appreciated just the same. -Endarire
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Due to his small list of spells known, and his inability to shift his casting from day to day, the sorcerer is not as likely to have the best spell for any situation as the wizard. The fact that he is one spell level behind prepared casters through half of his progression means that he is always a little behind them on the power curve.

Sorcerers have poor hit points and bad fortitude saves.

Aside from their spell list, Sorcerers have no class features to speak of. They are greatly benefited by most full progression prestige classes. -Braithwaite
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WotC hates sorcerers. Focused Abyssal Specialist Wizards get more spells known, more spell slots per day, and can spontaneously cast more than enough spells to be god in combat. Fact is, sorcerers were supposed to be comparable to wizards but with each book WotC printed the wizards got more ways to replace the sorcerer. The only boons tossed towards the sorcerer is the dragonspawn and Spellsurge. And one of those is pretty much banned from all games... -SorO_Lost
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What the sorcerer has in raw power, he lacks in spell versitility without serious optimization.  Don't get this wrong though: even with limited spells per day, he can still be far more flexible than any Fighter, assuming he picks versitile and powerful spells like Alter Self or Glitterdust.  Also, his biggest weakness is being printed next to the Wizard in the PHB, which forces people to compare him to that monstrosity and thus makes him seem weak.  Another big weakness is that a Sorcerer becomes much weaker if he's not allowed to use the spells that are both powerful and flexible, but those spells are often banned by DMs.  While a Wizard can just pick a spell that's powerful and not flexible (since he can chose the spell for the occasion anyway) the Sorcerer is stuck with weaker spells, so Sorcerers are often weakened more noticeably by heavy handed DM nerfs than Wizards. -JaronK

Pros: The sorcerer is a full caster, with one of the best available spell lists in the game. While limited by their spells known, a carefully built sorcerer has the potential for both game breaking power and significant flexibility. There are a few sorcerer only spells, or spells with added benefits when cast by sorcerers. The large class spell list means that sorcerers can get significant mileage from spell trigger items and runestaffs. Unlike the "specialist sorcerer" classes, a well built sorcerer can target will or fortitude saves, do battlefield control, buffs, or direct damage, and can be a formidable opponent even to foes with spell resistance or other defenses to certain types of magic.

The sorcerer does not need to protect a spellbook. In circumstances where the party falsely guesses what to expect in a given day, the sorcerer with his varied list can temporarily surpass even prepared casters.

With bluff on his class list, and his high charisma, the sorcerer can make an adequate party "Face" in the absence of better classes for this role. -Braithwaite
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Sorcerer advantage is that they can cover the bases with their spells. At 20th level a sorcerer might have shades, shape change, wail of the banshee, greater shadow evocation, moment of prescience, greater planar binding, limited wish, mage's mansion, plane shift, mass suggestion, solid fog, teleport, true seeing, animate dead and some other stuff. This allows him to do every thing pretty good, but not at the awesome level that they could if they had a less restrictive spell selection.To get versatility a sorcerer has to take things that it can't spam, and spamming is what they do. Planar binding, shapechange, plane shift, the mansion and teleport are likely one slots in the daily scheme of things if that. -lians
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Assuming your party has a wizard in it then your DM should allow you to whip out some dragon cheese on your sorcerer which leads to some major ass kicking. As a White Dragonspawn Abomination Dragonwought Kobold with Greater Draconic Rite you're casting three levels ahead of normal which has it's own goodies. Follow that up with the Arcane Spellsurge spell and Invisible Spell combo and your casting two spells per round. For your buffing round make both of those spells a greater arcane fusion that casts arcane fusion and poof, two 1st level spells and four 4th level spells per round at the cost of two 8th level spell slots.

Sorcerer's also make better gishes than wizards, not because they have simple lame weapons proficiency, but because they can use the Spellsurge trick without caring about conserving spell slots. Thus they can nova out the first two or three encounters and just rely on standard combat and their lower level spells to get them though the day. Also Wings of Cover deserves it's own mentioning, as an immediate action you can gain full cover. This means the sorcerer can break the line of effect of a 9th level dominate monster spell cast on him at the cost of a mere 2nd level spell slot. -SorO_Lost
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They have access to all the broken tricks of a Wizard... but no one Sorcerer can actually do very many of them.  Nonetheless, a Sorcerer can still Alter Self into a Crucian or Dwarf Ancestor at level 4 (depending on his type).  He can still Planar Bind rediculously powerful creatures, Shapechange into a Solar to become a Cleric, spam Explosive Runes all over the place, knock out dragons with a single Shivering Touch, and so on... if he chooses the right spells.  Certainly, if played by RAW a higher level Sorcerer can absolutely break the game (Planar bound Efreetis, Flowing Time Genesis, Flesh to Salt on cows, etc).  And of course there are ways around his spell limitations, such as Mage of the Arcane Order, Sand Shaper, and Runestaffs.  Plus, Kobold Sorcerers can by raw get huge boosts to their effective level... with a liberal DM, you could quite possibly get +3 to Sorcerer level (Loredrake + Draconic Reserve + Greater Draconic Rite) for the cost of a single feat and some other more negligible costs.  Even if your DM doesn't accept Loredrake, Greater Draconic Rite lets the Sorcerer keep up with the Wizard in spell levels... if you're cool with being a tiny dragon creature. -JaronK
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Sorcerers become significantly more flexible if you allow Psychic Reformation, though the XP costs will mean that you can't use it very often.

Of course, if you rebuild correctly, you shouldn't have to  use it very often.

One thing to keep in mind about sorcerers vs wizards is that in most games, wizards can't be played to their fullest extent, so the power gap narrows a little.

Still, the class is poorly designed. There is no reason for the slower spell progression. -Solo


Favored Soul:


A note on Favored Souls: Well, the sorcerer and favored soul are obvious examples because they're spontaneous version of tier 1 classes (the wizard and cleric respectively).  They get more spell slots per day, but they have far fewer spells known.  Thus, any one trick of theirs can be just as powerful as a tier 1 caster, but they don't have as many tricks.  Their sheer versatility drops compared to a tier 1 class.  They can completely solo some encounters, but not all encounters.

Of course, smart players will take very versatile spells to maximize each spell known.  Spells like Alter Self/Polymorpth each cover a wide range of possibilities, as do the Summon Monster spells.

Also, being able to spontaneously apply metamagic feats is nice, but the full round action cost really cuts into the action ecconomy.  Being one level behind on their advancement also hurts their power a bit compared to the tier 1s. -Robbypants

Cons: Lacks Turn Undead (one of the reasons Clerics are tier 1), forcing the favored soul to multiclass in order to get it. The bonus feats it receives are sub par. Even the capstone could be better. And they are 1 level behind his Tier 1 counterpart. -Risada
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Favored souls are sorcerers with a slightly worse spell list, MAD for spells, and somewhat underwhelming class features. -The_Mad_Linguist

Pros: Favored souls have access to one of the best spell list in the game, including healing, buffs, debuffs, blasting and some battlefield control, with spontaneous casting to boot. They also have good saves and grant access to the Weapon Focus line of feats. -Risada


Psion:


A note on Psions: Psions are very similar to arcanists in that they fulfill the same basic roles in a party (gish, mind control, summoner, battlefield control, blaster, divination specialist, and so on), though their class structure tends to restrict them in how many of these abilities they have access to at one time. It takes considerably more effort to build a truly varied psion than it does for a wizard or archivist, in large part because the enforced specialization they undergo due to the existence of psionic disciplines (also known colloquially as 'devotions' to avoid confusion, as 'discipline' means both psionic 'schools of magic' and psionic 'areas of specialization').

Psions tend to be considerably more flexible in their area of expertise than sorcerers are, for the simple fact that their casting system was designed explicitly with spontaneous casting in mind (rather than being a class that was tacked-on to a system designed around the fire-n-forget mechanic that wizards, clerics, and druids are designed to fully exploit). However, the majority of their abilities are considerably less powerful than their arcane/divine counterparts, though their most 'broken' powers are actually direct analogues to stock-standard wizard spells.

The base chassis for the psion class is as follows: d4 Hit Dice; poor BAB; proficiency in simple weapons (though they aren't proficient in armor or shields); Good Will saves; 2 skill points per level with a different skill list for each devotion; Int-based manifesting; one psionic, metapsionic, or psionic item creation bonus feat at levels 1, 5, and every 5 levels thereafter; enforced devotion specialization; and the best power progression and power point acquisition of any of the psionic classes. Psions also get access to psionic focus (both a boon and a bane) by virtue of having power points, which is covered briefly below:

Psionic Focus

Psionic focus is a mechanic unique to psionics, which is based around the Concentration skill. "Psionic focus" is an on/off state, depending on whether you've regained (as a full-round action and a DC 20 Concentration check) or expended (as part of another action) or otherwise lost your focus. You must have at least 1 pp in your pp pool in order to maintain psionic focus.

Psionic focus only does a single thing on its own; it allows you to 'take 15' on a Concentration check when you expend it. Otherwise, it fuels psionic feats, metapsionic feats, and certain class features (either by means of maintaining focus [for feats like Up the Walls] or by expending it [mostly for metapsionic feats]).

This restricts what a psionic character can do, since most characters can only have a single psionic focus at one time, but it also allows them to use feats and abilities somewhat more powerful than most other characters. Thus, it's both an enabler and a restriction to psionic characters. -Lycanthromancer

Cons: 1.) Psions pay for their versatility. Powers, unlike spells, don't generally auto-scale. Instead of expending a 3rd level spell-slot (the equivalent of 5 pp) for 10d6 points of damage at level 10, you must expend 10 pp for the same amount of damage (twice the resource expenditure for the same effect). This leads to issue #2:

2.) Psions have nova issues, which means that it's fairly easy to run out of power points after a couple of encounters. You have to ration a psion's powers where they'll do the most good, without overextending yourself; otherwise you end up as little more than a commoner with a crossbow and a few tricks up his sleeves. The way to deal with this as a player is to ration yourself; as a DM, make sure there are an average of 4-5 equal-CR encounters per day (as the DMG itself suggests) to teach your psion player to practice self-restraint.

3.) Psions are good at applying metapsionics on the fly, but the restraints on metapsionics are severe enough that it takes a good chunk of build-resources to overcome them. While they have considerably more flexibility when it comes to using them, pp spent on metapsionics steals pp away from augmentation (which is used in lieu of auto-scaling), a psion's numbers tend to be a bit smaller (sometimes quite a bit smaller) than a wizard's or sorcerer's.

4.) Despite being considerably less broken than even core spellcasting, the horrible mechanics used pre-3.5, the Psionics Is Different Variant, and cheating players (along with DMs who don't understand the checks-and-balances on the system) have garnered 3.5 psionics a wholly undeserved reputation for being utterly broken, and so it won't be used in most games. Luckily the stigma seems to be wearing off, but quite unfortunately the blemish remains to this day. The biggest dent in their supreme might, the reason why they're not tier 1, and are still a step behind the sorcerer in utter power is they don't cast spells.

Their power list simply isn't half as broken as what wizards and sorcerers get, even in Core-only.

As I said before, the primary source of brokenness for psionics are the powers that are near-direct analogues of staple spells. Metamorphosis, for instance, is broken for a 4th level effect, but it's based wholly on polymorph. Psionic dominate is, as you probably guessed, based on dominate person/monster.

Powers simply don't compare to the insane power of the Core spell-list, mostly because the really bad exploits have been weeded out by halfway-decent editing and playtesting. -Lycanthromancer
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The low HD is worse than just being squishy, it prevents you from making full use of overchannel, the boot leg version of wild surge.  This can be offset with talented or manifesting vigor before hand.  Both have their limitations but not so bad once you get metamorphosis which in all likelihood heal any damage incurred when overchanneling.

No mantled variant is kind of a downer since psywar and wilder both had those options.

There are legal ways to effectively give yourself much more PP than you should which might prompt the DM to call foul on you.  There is that temp PP trick in ToM and the old "make 50 manifesting bolts" trick (effectively giving you a free 250 PP to spend on L1-L3 powers).  Both can do much to enhance your PP pool but may have your DM banning psionics as broken.  Especially true if you had to beg your DM to give  psionics a try in the first place. -Samb

Pros: 1.) Power points are far easier to keep track of than spell-slots, and the system as a whole is considerably more streamlined and organic-feeling. You don't have to deal with clunky, chunky spell-slots, and you don't need to worry about which spells you've used that day. Simply subtract the pp you've used from your total, and you're golden.

2.) Likewise, you aren't limited by which spell-slots you have available. Since power points are discrete, and can be used spontaneously, you can fire off a whole bunch of low-level powers, a smaller number of augmented low-level powers, or a few of your highest level powers, limited only by the action economy and how many power points you have left.

3.) Psionic manifesting is inherently flexible, with most powers retaining their usefulness for multiple purposes throughout the manifester's career, due to augmentation and the inherent flexibility that psionic powers have. Many powers are generically-useful enough to have several (perhaps unintended) uses, meaning that even those that seem subpar can be amazingly useful in numerous situations. Psionic feats likewise tend toward being extremely flexible, with Psicrystal Affinity being one of the most useful low-level (and high-level) feats I've ever come across.

4.) Due to the nature of psionics, manifesters get the Still Spell, Silent Spell, and a watered-down version of Heighten Spell, essentially for free. They can also manifest in armor with no inherent penalties (though psions aren't proficient in armor, so armor check penalties apply to attack rolls with weapons and powers).

5.) Int-based manifesting and access to a (potentially) awesome skill list, dependent on discipline, means that psions make good skill-monkeys. All psions make good Knowledge-monkeys, while telepaths make excellent party faces and nomads and seers make decent scouts.

6.) Psychic reformation was the original retraining ability, allowing manifesters (especially psions) to swap out their preexisting powers, skill points, feats, and possibly class levels (depending on interpretation). Since psions have no other mechanic for changing their builds (unlike wizards, clerics, and druids, which can swap their entire spell lists every day; and sorcerers and bards, which can swap out spells every other level), swapping out class abilities for a power known, some power points, a double-fistful of XP, and 10 minutes of manifesting time seems a decent alternative.

7.) Psions aren't campaign-wreckers, meaning that any DM that has read the class abilities and understands game balance should have no problems keeping them in check; they have some good tricks, and an optimizer with a good understanding of the system can do some surprising things, but it's nothing like unto what any plain-vanilla wizard can do to a game. Psions ARE pretty powerful, and flexible.

Their design schematic is better than the sorcerer's in every way. They're built as spontaneous 'casters' from the ground-up, and you actually get class features.

They're the epitome of flexibility and elegance-in-design. -Lycanthromancer
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Psychic reformation is a lot better than retraining in that it only requires you qualify for the feats and powers that you alter.  So you can see psions with nothing but 9th powers (stupid but possible by RAW).  There is another stricter interpretation of this, but by RAW it is possible.

Researching a power can also offset a lot of restrictions on psions' power lists which is especially potent at higher levels when you have more XP to spare.

Mind's eye provided a lot of PrCs that fit great for any type of psion, personal favorites are crystal master and arch psion. -Samb


Binder (with access to online vestiges):


Binder online vestiges can be found here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718

Cons: See Binder description in Why Tier 3s Are Tier 3.

Pros: One of the vestiges lets you cast Summon Monster as though you were a sorcerer of your binder level once per 5 rounds (so at Binder 16, you can cast Summon Monster VIII at caster level 16).  This lets you keep up and endless stream of versitile minions up all the time, often with nifty spell like abilities to help out.  They even get a template.  Other vestiges make you an incredible item crafter as well. -JaronK

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Re: Hatchet Job Port Thread
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2013, 12:15:29 AM »
Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3, #1 of 2.
by Gr1lledcheese

I made the mistake of not reserving posts under the original, so I split the post into two. Tier 3 seems to be very popular. 

It was brought up that there's no set explanation for why low tier classes are generally less effective. With that in mind, I figured I'd start one. I'll be doing one for each tiers, but I want to get the low tiers out of the way first, because most people know why classes like Wizards and Druids are above average. I'm looking for your input on the classes, and to make this a guide for people new to CO. Thanks to all who contribute in advance.

From JaronK's Tier System For Classes guide, the widely accepted Char Op base power description thread:

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

Examples: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior

A note on Tier 3s: I'd like to point out something.

Being a tier 3 is NOTHING to be ashamed of.  Tier 3 are the herald's of destruction, they can do humongously more damage in battle than tier 1 and 2 characters and are still immensely useful out of combat.  Simply put, if you're a least bit intelligent, you won't be bored playing a tier 3 character.

But you're not tier 2.  Or tier 1.

Tier 1 characters can BREAK THE GAME, litterally, all of them, that's why they are gods, that's why we are wary of the power we wield when we use them.

Tier 2 characters can BREAK THE GAME, just a tad less obviously, or in a more limited way.   

So anyone who feels insulted their class is ''only tier 3''  when they play one in game, DON'T BE!  It's still incredibly good.  Heck, i played a game with 3 tier 1 and a tier 3, and the tier 3 was always useful in battle.  Eventually, it got so easy it was boring!!!  We had to tangle with actual GODS at level 21 just to keep it challenging! -Alastar

Why Tier 3's are in tier 3:

Beguiler:


Cons: A Beguiler, like a rogue, is very vulnerable to certain types of enemies unless they can cover their gaps with specialized magical items. Mindless creatures, those immune to Enchantments or Illusions, creatures with blindsight, true seeing, high SR, or even a high will save can be tough for Beguilers to beat.

Illusions and Enchantments derive much of their power from the creativity of the player and the cooperation of the DM. A player who just wants to blast his enemies will not do well with a beguiler. A DM whose NPC's always attempt to subvert commands and who are all paranoid of illusions can cripple a Beguiler.

While the Beguiler knows more spells than a sorcerer, and is absolutely better than a Sorcerer who takes only Enchantment and Illusion spells, it lacks the versatility of Sorcerers or Wizards to have the right tool on hand for every situation.

While superior in mundane combat to low level sorcerers and wizards, the beguiler is still one of the weakest combatants in the game, and the Surprise Casting class feature is almost a trap to lure unsuspecting players near their enemies where they can be crushed. -Braithwaite

Pros: Beguiler is probably the most flexible of the three "specialist Sorcerers", the other two being Dread Necromancer and Warmage.

For an arcane caster, the beguiler is reasonably hardy. Light armor is roughly equal to a sorcerer's Mage Armor, without taking up a spell slot. Weapon proficiencies similar to a rogue and d6 hit points per level mean that at low level the Beguiler can be marginally better in combat than a wizard.

The beguiler is a top of the line skill monkey. They really have more than 6 skill points per level, because Int is their casting stat, and they are almost obliged to keep it as high as possible anyway. They have trapfinding. If they decide to ignore parts of their excellent skill list, they can cover the gaps with their flexible spell list. For example, a beguiler with low hide can replace it with invisibility or silent image, or a beguiler with bad social skills can recover with charms, Suggestion, or Dominate. Use Magic Device can be used to mask some of their weaknesses.

The beguiler is a full caster. They automatically know every spell on their spell list, and their spell list can be widened by a number of feats, prestige classes, and the advanced learning class feature. At each spell level their list includes a number of excellent spells. They get some free metamagic feats and their cloaked casting ability helps them overcome enemy defenses when casting on opponents who are denied their dex bonuses.

The beguiler is capable of doing one thing quite well. It is excellent at neutralizing opponents with charms and illusions. When that is inappropriate, it can still contribute with Trapfinding, Use Magic Device, or a handful of buff spells. -Braithwaite

Dread Necromancer:

Cons: I'm playing a Dread Necromancer right now, and I can assure you Planar Binding is FAR weaker on them than a Sorcerer or Wizard.  Without magic circle, a Dread Necromancer has to kill and reanimate anyone they bind... they can't just use services or anything.  And that can be a little hard to do.  Once that's complete, they can only reanimate them as a Skeleton or Zombie if they want gaurenteed control, which is hardly impressive.  If they want to control the creature, they could use Create Undead to make a Bone Creature... but it's DM fiat as to which version of Create Undead they need to use to get such a critter.  And now they have to rebuke the creature... which is difficult if they don't have the items they need to make that work (Lyre of the Restful Soul, Rod of Defiance).  And by the time they can actually make all this work, we're already in very high levels where the Sorcerer is about to start Shapechanging, usually.

On paper it's great, but the DN version of Planar Binding isn't anywhere near the Wizard/Sorcerer version.  I know... I'm using it in a game right now! -JaronK

Pros: Assuming you have half a brain and take tomb-tainted soul at first level, you get unlimited free out of combat healing.  You can pull off the same rainbow servant shenanigans as the warmage, but have less incentive to do so because your class features are better.  The familiar you get is actually useful in combat, and you certainly have some good fear stacking synergy with it - plus, you can use it to extend your personal buffs to other party members if you choose the ghostly visage. -The_Mad_Linguist

Crusader:


Opening up with the fact that this tank base class has the highest HP this side of a raging Barbarian (AKA, the side you want to be on), this class is a reasonably powerful cannon. It has some serious potential.
-Sinfire Titan

The penultimate Tank class, only Tier 1s and 2s task built exceed it.  Even then it has a major advantage in staying power. -Keldar

Cons: *Sigh*, Steely Resolve applies to pretty much 1 attack/round at the early-mid levels due to low absorption factor. No control over maneuvers granted makes combat unpredictable when you expand their options with PrCs. No control over the recovery mechanic means you can lose some options to the action economy. Only a d10 HD, when it should have had a d12 (seriously, this class is the most deserving of a d12 HD). Most limited access to the 9 disciplines. -Sinfire Titan
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Highly melee focused, loosing most of its offense and defensive abilities without a foe to hit in melee.  MAD to a lesser degree than many, serviceable with just good STR and CON, it also wants for WIS and CHA to shore up will saves, and DEX to take advantage of it's AoO related abilities.  Many class abilities are pure filler.  Feat starved due to all but needing Extra Granted Manuver and the highly desirable Stone Power. -Keldar

Pros: Furious Counterstrike. Cha to Will saves. Access to 2 of the most powerful styles in the game (and Stone Dragon). Able to heal themselves reliably well. Full BAB. A recovery mechanic independent of the action economy (this would be 2nd only to the Warblade). Basically, if you want a tank this is the class to look into. Practically the easiest to optimize (2 feats, tops), its perfect to beginners. -Sinfire Titan
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Can last all day long.  Has the offensive and buffing abilities to make the character a threat unlike some other meat-shield oriented classes.  The Crusader can even lend some of its resilience to others when it is ignored, and is basically the only class that can make good use of in combat healing. -Keldar

Bard:

Cons: Inside core, the only real useful feat for a bard is Skill Focus. Maybe the Spring Attack chain. A bard doesn't get enough weapon proficiencies in class to make a very good meleer, the rogue out sneaks them, etc. Not an ideal replacement for any dedicated class, and are thusly relegated to the role of secondary whatever.

Also, their low hit die and medium base attack bonus means that most people will outmatch them in a straight fight. -Woodenbandman
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The main problem is that bards are too spread out. They can do several things and contribute to the party, but they don't excel anywhere.

Again, spreading too much is a problem (bard's less stretched than lightning warrior unfortunately). No transmutations make me sad. Most of the songs need to be swapped for alternative ones. You just need inspire courage and inspire greatness (coupled with polymorph, yay!), really. Countersong is probably the worst class feature. Ever. No 7th and above spells (where the party starts). No spot skill is a minor detail, but it bugs me Tongue

Last but not least, the biggest con is not being respected by your own party Tongue ("bards? meh! What, are you gonna, like, sing the monsters away?", "Nonono, i was able to hit that monster anyway, didn't need your +WTFOMFGPWND inspire courage mod") -Dictum Mortuum

Pros: Great support outside of core in splatbooks. Feats that benefit multiclassed bards and prestige classes mean that a bard can cover any archetype of character adequately, whether it's Fighter, Tank (though illusionary defenses add up really well), sneak, face, magic user, healer, or buffer. They can even cover two of these roles at once, in many cases. Best at buffing, though (9d6 or however the hell much it is energy damage on each attack the party makes is awesome. Can make a strong case for using TWF if there's no rogue in the party already).

Very decent spell list. Some bard specific spells (Glibness, Hymn of Praise) are awesome and make any party fawn over the thought of a bard. Some spells not limited to bards only (Alter Self, Grease, Haste, Greater Blink, Greater Mirror Image) are extremely awesome anyway.

A great host of alternate class features, including songs that cause debuffs (that one that makes enemies attack each other is nice), the ability to use a fascinate effect with a DC based on a skill check (allowing you to often bypass a lot of hazards such as guards that must be snuck past), along with the ability to instill suggestions to a crowd at high levels, is awesome. -Woodenbandman
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They can buff, heal, speak, UMD, cast, scout, damage, summon. If there are martial characters in the group (or summoners) they're gonna love the bard, even if they don't optimize their inspire courage, as haste and displacement are equally spicy. Bardic music stacking with lingering song ftw. I love how they can cure a stupid amount of HPs using CLWs by chanting that healing hymn. I also love the half-elf substitution levels, especially coupled with deepwyrm half-drow. Actually, now that i think of it, bards have some quality alternative class features available. Take obtain/improved familiar and you have two of a character. A hasted power attacking (through heroics Tongue) bard who also inspires courage and wields a two handed weapon is scary -_-

Also: whip proficiency, hell yeah \m/ i'm goddamn indiana jones baby! -Dictum Mortuum

Swordsage:


Cons: IMO, the swordsage is probably the most well-balanced of the 3 martial classes (which also means that it is the weakest).

For a melee class, the swordsage seems to be an anomaly in that it gets only a d8, 3/4 bab, light armour, no shield and has good reflex/will saves but poor fort saves. With a noticeable lack of ranged capabilities, you are clearly expected to wade into melee, but none of your class features seemed geared towards helping you survive a retributive full attack from the enemy. So you likely need to play your swordsage more conservatively, having him skulk around the sidelines, moving in to strike only when the foe is preoccupied with a more imminent threat like the party barb or warblade. And even then, you better have a good way of retreating in case things get ugly. Better get a flight speed + flyby attack, or try to simulate spring attack somehow (eg: move, strike, use quicksilver motion/shadow blink to move away as swift action).

It appears to suffer from MAD. You are limited to light armour + no shield, so you will likely want to maintain a high dex score to boost your AC. Wis as well, since you add it to your AC, and it improves a variety of features, such as the save DCs of your maneuvers and the bonus damage from insightful strike. It has a fairly good skill list, so it is very tempting to invest in 12 int minimum to ensure you have sufficient skills. As with any class, a decent con is mandatory for sufficient hp. In addition, unless you wield a finessable weapon, you will likely want a good str score as well to boost your attack rolls. Cha remains a dump stat, but that is scant consolation for the fact that the class still leaves you with incentive to want to boost the other 5.

The swordsage gets the most number of maneuvers known and readied. But this is a mixed blessing, since you cannot ready any maneuver more than once, so you are typically left with 1 of 2 options - either maintain a good mix of strikes, counters and boosts (which means that you cannot really excel in any one aspect), or fill your excess slots with suboptimal maneuvers after choosing the choice ones.

He is also hampered by a very inefficient recharge mechanic (though to be fair, it can be mitigated with a single feat - adaptive style). I say "mitigated" rather than "solved" because spending one full round doing nothing to get all your maneuvers back is still quite a steep cost (though the upside is that you can also swap in useful maneuvers in place of less useful ones).

One full round just to get back 1 maneuver. Given the average length of a typical encounter, don't bother. You are "encouraged" to ration and use them sparingly, to ensure that you have enough to see you through the entire fight (which ties back to my earlier point about filling excess slots with subpar maneuvers). Contrast this with a warblade, who can easily alternate between spamming his best maneuvers and full-attacking (as part of refreshing), or a crusader who automatically refreshes his maneuvers every 3 rounds.

The array of disciplines don't seem all that stellar either. Desert wind and shadow hand are fairly weak, and it seems quite difficult to base a character build around them (a number of builds I see tend to revolve around specializing in diamond mind/tiger claw, while splashing in desert wind/shadow hand. No experience with setting sun.

3/4 bab isn't necessarily as bad as it seems. Standard action strikes mean that you are making 1 attack each round at your highest attack roll, so you should still be able to hit fairly consistently. But you can't really afford to power attack, since you will unlikely have excess bab to "burn". -Runestar

Pros: With so many flaws, you are likely wondering "Where are the good points"? Well, they would be the maneuvers! They let you be everything a fighter fails at, by allowing you more options, all the better to tackle the various challenges thrown your way by the DM.

Your crappiest save assaulted by a save-or-die ability of impossibly high DC? It is the appropriate diamond mind save booster (moment of precise mind/mind over body/action before thought) to the rescue (and action before thought complements evasion quite nicely).

Mobility hampered by difficult terrain? Teleport (shadow blink) or ignore it (setting sun 1st lv stance).

Mobile foes giving you fits by constantly moving, thus denying you the full attack? Strike maneuvers let you move and still be able to deal respectable damage (and since the bonus damage is usually independent of the weapon you wield, you can still lay out the hurt even if you are armed with a puny dagger instead of a greatsword, since its damage dice comprises only a small portion of the total damage dealt). Sometimes, you want to do more than just damage. There are quite a few maneuvers which rider-effects that allow you to debuff a foe in a variety of ways (such as negative lvs, restricting their movement or preventing them from full-attacking).

And thanks to martial study, you can also access cross-class maneuvers. Hit by a pesky status effect like wave of exhaustion? Remove it with iron heart surge. Only problem is that the swordsage does not really get that many feats, and quite a few will probably be tied up in the form of adaptive style, weapon finesse and possibly shadow blade (which also has the drawback of locking you in a shadow hand stance), so again, you only have so many feats to play around with.

Simply put, maneuvers help make melee fun again, and this is no exception even for the swordsage.

I would rate it as a tad inferior to the warblade (or in the very least, it would be more more tricky to play effectively), but the sheer utility of maneuvers more than suffices in letting it stay in the tier3 range. -Runestar
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As was noted for many of the lower tier classes, and as is always true for ToB classes, Swordsage makes a handy 1 or 2 level dip. If you are a caster and only expect to swing a weapon if cornered or for a few rounds every combat after you have finished your party buffs or battlefield control, the crummy recharge mechanic won't hurt you. Likewise, if you are a meleer and plan on doing mostly full attacks except for the few rounds when you are moving or otherwise prevented, the recharge mechanic isn't a problem.

For Wisdom using classes, the Swordsage Wisdom to AC in light armor is much better than the similar Monk/Ninja ability. Even a simple chain shirt with the +4 from an 18 wisdom comes out the same as plate mail, and a high level Swordsage with a magic mithral breastplate and high wisdom is likely to have the highest AC in the party, as well as a good touch AC. Unfortunately, boosting AC is usually not as effective as other build strategies, but if you decide that you want to build a high AC character, Swordsage + any wisdom based full casting class will probably outperform lower tier classes more typically thought of as "tanks", like Knight, Paladin, or sword & shield Fighter. -Braithwaite

Offline Toptomcat

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Re: Hatchet Job Port Thread
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2013, 12:16:40 AM »
Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3, #2 of 2
by Gr1lledcheese

I made the mistake of not reserving posts under the original, so I split the post into two. Tier 3 seems to be very popular.

It was brought up that there's no set explanation for why low tier classes are generally less effective. With that in mind, I figured I'd start one. I'll be doing one for each tiers, but I want to get the low tiers out of the way first, because most people know why classes like Wizards and Druids are above average. I'm looking for your input on the classes, and to make this a guide for people new to CO. Thanks to all who contribute in advance.

From JaronK's Tier System For Classes guide, the widely accepted Char Op base power description thread:

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

Examples: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior

A note on Tier 3s: I'd like to point out something.

Being a tier 3 is NOTHING to be ashamed of.  Tier 3 are the herald's of destruction, they can do humongously more damage in battle than tier 1 and 2 characters and are still immensely useful out of combat.  Simply put, if you're a least bit intelligent, you won't be bored playing a tier 3 character.

But you're not tier 2.  Or tier 1.

Tier 1 characters can BREAK THE GAME, litterally, all of them, that's why they are gods, that's why we are wary of the power we wield when we use them.

Tier 2 characters can BREAK THE GAME, just a tad less obviously, or in a more limited way.   

So anyone who feels insulted their class is ''only tier 3''  when they play one in game, DON'T BE!  It's still incredibly good.  Heck, i played a game with 3 tier 1 and a tier 3, and the tier 3 was always useful in battle.  Eventually, it got so easy it was boring!!!  We had to tangle with actual GODS at level 21 just to keep it challenging! -Alastar

Why Tier 3's are in tier 3:


Binder:

Cons: Can only use most of the cool things like imprisonment or what have you every 5 rounds, which is all right when you can cycle through 5 options, but at first though 8th level it really sucks. -lans
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Whilst any good player have plenty of options when playing a binder, fact remains that it is less versatile than a tier 1 or 2 spellcaster. It has already been stated that "around the clock" powers are only stronger than the "use and loose" type of powers (i.e spells) when you have more than 4 encounters a day.
Basically, if you have a wizard in your team, you'll probably rest after four encounters anyway unless you like to put your team in jeopardy since one of it's members now is a viablility instead of a reliability. That rarely happens.
On a round-by-round basis, spellcasters have more powerful options than Binders. Add to that the fact that most of the binders most powerfull abilites are once every five rounds, the action economy versus optimum preformance doesn't ad up all that well to the binders favor.

Thus, under normal circumstances (rest after 4 encounters), a spellcaster have more juice than a Binder. -Shadowhunter


Pros: Binders get a variety of options with 5 round cool downs, including save or sucks, penalties to everything, smites, turning, rerolls, cure light wounds and others. It can get spirited charge and mount, imprisonment at 15th level, phantasmal killer at 10th, get huge bonuses to a variety of skills, +16 to hide and move silently at 13th level for example with 4d6 sneak attack and sudden strike, punch like a monk, walk around and attack everybody you walk by which is kind of cool if you can punch like a monk, move an ally as a swift action,  20% concealment at 6th level unless they can see in darkness like you can.

The pact augmentation allows it to get a bonus on initiative, ac, saves, hp damage reduction, or damage.
Gets immunity to energy drain, and mind blank. -lans


Wildshape Variant Ranger:

The wildshape ranger trades his combat style feats for fast movement (as a barbarian) and wildshape (as a druid, small and medium animals only). This is generally considered a step up from the normal ranger. -Ninjarabbit


Cons: The wildshape ranger is pretty much a liability before level 5, assuming str and dex were dumped. He's limited to small and medium animals when wildshaping, limiting combat option when compared to the druid. Also since you aren't going to get any more wildshape forms after level 5, it severely limits the incentive to keep taking ranger levels. The wildshape ranger still has the sucky animal companion. -Ninjarabbit

Pros: The wildshape ranger is able to dump his str and dex scores, getting rid of the MAD that rangers normally have. Wildshaping creates much more flexibility in combat: pouncing as a leopard, tripping as a riding dog, grappling as a black bear, constrictor snake, or crocodile, weapons and armor as a baboon, and more. He still gets the normal ranger goodies like 2 bonus feats, spellcasting, 6 skill points/level, and evasion. The wildshape ranger can qualify for PrCs like Master of Many Forms and Warshaper. -Ninjarabbit

Duskblade:

A note about Duskblades: The duskblade is basically an arcane barbarian with a few more tricks thrown in, capable of doing high amounts of damage in melee thanks to arcane channeling and good feat selection. -Ninjarabbit


Cons: The duskblade's spell list is very limited, lacks buffs, battlefield control, and utility spells, and doesn't get that many top tier spells. The duskblade doesn't get any touch attack spells to channel past the 3rd level and he only has a handful of good spells that can be channeled. The duskblade only gets up to 5th level spells (though some of it's spells are higher level on other spell lists like polar ray and disintigrate). The duskblade can be a borderline one-trick pony and is really tight on feats. A d8 hit dice makes it a little more frail than most other melee types, though a channeled vampric touch helps with this. -Ninjarabbit


Pros: The duskblade can really dish out the damage in melee with arcane channeling and feats like power attack, knowledge devotion, and arcane strike. The duskblade does get a handful of debuffs like ray of enfeeblement, touch of idiocy, ray of exhaustion, and enervation. The duskblade does get quite a few spells per day and combined with a ring of wizardry or two he can arcane channel/arcane strike for a long time. The duskblade effectively get sudden quicken up to 4 times a day. The duskblade can cast in armor, partially making up for his lack of defensive spells. A d8 hit dice and full BAB make obtain familiar/improved familiar viable feat choices. -Ninjarabbit

Factotum:

Factotum, or Fiction?: The following is part of an argument I was having as to which is stronger, the Rogue or the Factotum, and it sums up why the Factotum is T3 pretty nicely (though it doesn't cover everything... their "duplicate class abilities" thing is INSANE).

Here's how combat went the first time a friend of mine picked up a Factotum (never having played before). He was just released from being captured (plot point to get him into the game) and thus had absolutely no gear at all, just the mundane clothes on his back. If he was anything like a Rogue, he should have been unable to fight, but he was thrown directly into combat, and here's what he did, and note that this is an 8th level Tiefling Factotum:
 
First, he made a rediculously high Escape Artist check to get out of his bindings (he was supposed to be just waiting for us to rescue him). Then he sneaks down the hall. Coming around the corner, he saw a bad guy right in front of him at the opening to a courtyard where the rest of the party was battling. So, on his initiative (it was an ongoing battle) he gets a free standard action with his Factotum abilities and Alter Selfs into an Advespa, which he had learned about with a quick google search for "Alter Self Forms." This gives him 5 natural attacks, 7 Natural Armour, and a flight speed. Then he full attacks the bad guy in front of him, getting a little sneak attack in for good measure. Next round, as our party is cleaning up pretty good and the Sorcereress just glitterdusted the guy and an enemy near him, the guy ran, getting away around a corner... but the Factotum just used an extra standard action to get to the corner, then charged him and used sneak attack to finish him off.

Now, this is simply not something a naked Rogue does.

Now, you can call an 8th level character using Alter Self to gain natural AC and natural attacks TO, but since it was used in game, it's clearly not, nor is it even overpowered (it's still light duty Wild Shape). Yes, Wizards using Alter Self at level 3 to get +8 Natural AC for 30 minutes is overpowered. But Factotums can't do that sort of thing until 5, at which point the Druid already has Wild Shape, which is an equivalent ability at level 5 and continues to get far better, outpacing Alter Self dramatically as the levels increase.

So yeah, really potent, really flexible class that can REALLY surprise a DM.-JaronK

Cons: Low IP means anyone not using the Font of Inspiration feat is going to fall behind fast. And they get about 5 to 7 spells/day, and only up to 7th level spells. And their metamagic option is rather weak. -Sinfire Titan

Pros: There's a reason this class is considered a better skill monkey than the Rogue. 7th level SLAs, and up to 5 or 6 6th level spells/day (at the cost of lower level spells). Int to damn near everything in the book. Extra actions/round. Int to AC constantly (that stacks!) at mid-levels. Able to emulate any EX class feature below 15th level from any base class (arguably the most redeeming quality of Factotum 20). Every skill as a class skill. Access to the Sor/Wis list without UMD or PrCs. The list may be short, but it is devastating. There's a reason to take the class over Rogue. -Sinfire Titan
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Factotums do get access to Empower/Maximize/Quicken Spell-Like Ability (as well as any other SLA feats), which you can apply on-the-fly 3/day (each). They don't increase the effective level of your SLAs, and so can be used in tandem.These are in addition to regular metamagic feats and Spontaneous Metamagic feats that you can apply as normal (since the SLAs also count as regular magic spells for that purpose). -Lycanthromancer
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Meanwhile, there's the old Iajuitsu Focus thing. Yes, OA was updated for 3.5, and yes, Factotums have ALL skills as class skills, including Autohypnosis and IF. The ability to take extra standard actions and, when you need, add your Factotum level to your check once in a while makes this incredibly potent. You can draw a weapon (usually with the eager enchantment if you can get it, since generally speaking Factotums have a better place to spend feats) in the surprise round (gained through hiding, or casting invisibility, or whatever), partial action charge the enemy, and deal IF damage. Then, if you want, use an extra standard action to hit them again. Then, if you win initiative, use an extra standard action to sheath your weapon while you move up to another enemy, then draw it and full attack, dealing IF damage a second time (and if you want to add sneak attack damage, you could do that too). I don't know why some people don't think IF should count... that's exactly what the Factotum's forte is (using any skill he wants). And of course an item that gives Sapphire Nightmare Blade is exceptionally cheap.

And then of course there's the spellcasting. While he has few spells per day and they're way behind a Wizard, he's got four big advantages here.

First and formost, he can gain extra standard actions, and can do it a LOT if he takes the Factotum only feat that, well, he almost certainly will take. Saying that feat doesn't count because it's in a weird place is silly, since the Factotum itself is in a weird place so you're already looking through weird places, and the "weird place" is the Class Chronicals about Factotums anyway. That's not hugely weird. The result is that he can combo spells together, which can be extremely useful.

The second advantage Factotums get with spells is that unlike Wizards, they can use the entire list without needing a spellbook. That means that if a Factotum suddenly realizes he needs spell X, that's exactly what he's going to have ready for the next day... plus he doesn't have to spend tons of his wealth by level on a spellbook. This is huge in games like World's Largest Dungeon, or just games where the situation changes a lot.

And third, he can ignore SR whenever he wants, starting from level 11. Just think about that one for a second.  Consider how many spells are balanced by the fact that at least SR can stop them, and then realize that when a Factotum does it, he can ignore that.  Cast Spectral Hand and Shivering Touch in the surprise round, touch attack the dragon with it, and ignore his SR for the purpose, which would be his only defense?  Sure.  And you've even got the Factotum's advantages in sneaking up on him, just stay out of the range of his Blindsense (unless you have Darkstalker of course).

So, another way a Factotum could fight (we've been through two already, turning into a powerful combat form and using Iajuitsu Focus for damage boosting) would be to combo useful spells together. One easy example is Cloudkill with Solid Fog, making a fog of death that enemies can't escape from quickly enough. And remember, you can cast the whole combo in the surprise round if you want. Very nasty.  No one ever expects the skillmonkey to pull that move off.  And the above mentioned combination of Spectral Hand with any potent touch attack.  All this and the ability to ignore SR whenever it suits you is pretty darn incredible.

The important point is that everything I've stated here is just a Factotum with a few Fonts of Inspiration. That's it. I haven't discussed gear other than the side note about using Sapphire Nightmare Blade, or race (though the Advespi thing only works if you're an outsider... that particular character happens to be a Tiefling... but you can use other forms if you're another race). And those were just some examples of what a Factotum can do (I haven't even gone into Turn Undead or his healing abilties or his ability to ignore DR, or his ability to eventually mimic any three Ex class abilities from 15th level characters... how about 10d6 sneak attack, 10d6 sudden strike, and full flurry of blows? Or would you prefer Pounce? You know what else is Ex? A Fighter's Bonus Feats, and you probably just gained 10 of them because you just gained the bonus feats ability of a fighter of your Factotum level. Now, technically spellcasting itself is Ex, but we'll ignore that for now). I haven't gone into his defense either... the ability to simply ignore any damage that would take him to 0 or less hitpoints for 4 Inspiration Points is pretty freaking awesome, as as Int to AC in any armour if he needs it (though his later version of the ability requires light armour). And who doesn't like the ability to add your class level to any save when you want it?

And of course, all of that was just combat. We haven't even gotten started on out of combat.

Out of combat you're much like a Rogue, except that unlike a Rogue you can pump Int without worrying (Rogues have to care about their Dex a lot more if they want to survive, and their poorer defense makes Con that much more critical). This means your higher int will make up for the skill point difference. Then you've got both Int and Dex (and both Int and Str) to skills that require Str or Dex, the ability to add your Factotum level once per day to any skill you've got a point in already, and of course the ability to cast nearly any Wizard/Sorc spell, though admittedly a few spell levels behind the big boys. This can mean scouting an area while Alter Selfed into a Whispergnome or Skulk for better hide and move silently, using Autohypnosis to automatically memorize every detail you see, and then sneaking back. Or just using a divination spell. You've got such spells as Knock and Silence to help out too. And that's just the scouting aspect.

There's a reason Factotums are in Tier 3 in my system, and in fact they're pretty high in Tier 3. They've got so much innate flexibility it's obscene... unexperienced DMs thinking they're weaker could get VERY surprised but how much a Factotum can alter himself to suit a situation perfectly.  Put a Factotum in a group with a Rogue and that Rogue ends up looking like dead weight plenty of the time (any time where the situation calls for one skill monkey to do something). And the Fighter? The Factotum can often outclass him too, sometimes dropping whole encounters in the surprise round and start of the first round. And he can do all of it without warning, adapting on the fly to the situation in front of him.  Certainly, when I watch the one that's currently grouped with my Dread Necromancer (plus a Sorcerer, Cleric, Swordsage, and Paladin of Tyranny/Hexblade) there's no way he's the weak link. -JaronK

Warblade:

A note on the Warblade: Warblades are tier 3 only because 9th level spells are better than the rule books and not because the monster manuals are packed full of monsters that can kill them. Being the horseman War is great and all, but it will always be second best to a god. -SorO_Lost

 
Cons: They don't have ranged attacks and always have to use mithral as their armor's material if they want to use full-plate. That's it. -SorO_Lost

Pros: Warblades are simply the best melee class ever.

Ok to reiterate, Warblades pack a d12 hit dice, full BAB, proficiency with all melee martial weapons, and up to medium armor as their basic class stats meaning they are meant for melee combat. From there things go uphill at a staggering pace.

For one thing they are the smart fighter, none of that 'Thorg smash puppies' stuff fighters do. Warblades get bonuses for having intelligence such as adding their int bonus to reflex saves, crit confirmation, damage rolls when flanking, all those combat maneuvers in the PHB, and finally attack and damage rolls for AOOs. Oh and did I mention they sport 4 skill points per level and can pick up skills like balance,tumble and intimidate?

Another thing to mention is Weapon Aptitude which not only lets you have access to but lets you swap your Weapon Focus chain of feats on the fly. Did you focus on longswords but find this awesome mace? Spend an hour playing with it and poof, instant retraining with no XP cost!

By the 6th level a warblade has improved uncanny dodge and a bonus feat. Later on they will pick up an additional three bonus feats from a limited but useful list. It's kinda like stealing class abilities from the Barbarian and Fighter at the same time.

Then there is the maneuver system the ToB introduced of course, the warblade gets the best recovery mechanic of all the classes. When you run out of maneuvers just attack someone. Yes I said attack them. I mean in a boring no maneuvers used sort of way, but it's the same exact (full) attack actions that you are used to using and the monsters still are. Walk over and beat the every living crap out of something to recover your maneuvers to beat the remaining blood out of them next round. Fun times.

Warblades can choose from any of the unsupernatural style of schools. They are realistic and in your face. They don't care about such things like fire, ghosting people, or purifying the wicked. Keep it simple, the pointy end goes into the foe a dozen times or the sharp edge slices them into pieces. Expect your average warblade to ignore save or die effects, to break battle control effects cast at them, to set the battle field in favorable conditions and exploit it, and to be seen helping the entire party's melee capabilities.

Finally, even those high nosed RPers will love the warblade. Now they have rules and effects backing such stories as 'I leap up and slice the snake's head clean off'. Even the most boring of players will find them selves shouting out the names of their attacks and bragging about how cool their character looks while swinging his sword. No more boring 'I attack..." comments. Ever. Well, unless it's part of a small joke, such as 'I attack... With my Finishing Move after flash stepping behind them and my blade lights up resembling molten lava to burn away their very soul!'. Maneuvers are so flavorful...
-SorO_Lost

Offline Toptomcat

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Re: Hatchet Job Port Thread
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2013, 12:17:50 AM »
Why Tier 4s are in Tier 4

by the same guy

It was brought up that there's no set explanation for why low tier classes are generally less effective. With that in mind, I figured I'd start one. I'll be doing one for each tiers, but I want to get the low tiers out of the way first, because most people know why classes like Wizards and Druids are above average. I'm looking for your input on the classes, and to make this a guide for people new to CO. Thanks to all who contribute in advance.

From JaronK's Tier System For Classes guide, the widely accepted Char Op base power description thread:

Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribue to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.

Examples: Rogue, Barbarian, Warlock, Warmage, Scout, Ranger, Hexblade, Adept, Spellthief, Marshal, Fighter (Dungeoncrasher Variant)

Why Tier 4's are Tier 4:

Rogue:

Cons: Sneak Attack fails against huge or larger creatures because you have to reach their vitals. Also Sneak Attack fails if the target has any kind of concealment, which is sold in items easily enough. Without special feats of skill tricks the Rogue has to party up with what will probably be an already high damager in order to flank and thus use their Sneak Attack ability. Finally another failure in Sneak Attack comes from the fact that the rogue isn't really meant to be in the middle of combat and using Sneak Attack with ranged attacks requires a lot of effort.

Rogues primary shine outside of combat, such as interacting with NPCs, scouting, digging for loot, you know, those mundane things people just talk about at the gaming table. Most of the roles the Rogue preforms anyone could find a way to do if needed. Such as the entire trap finding role is rendered obsolete but a single reserve feat that any spellcaster can take or are simply based on skill bonuses which can be brought and paid for with magical items.

The fact is a Rogue is your 4th party member, an Indian tossed in to avoid having to many chiefs. He fits in filling the lesser roles of a party's teamwork that everyone else is too busy to bother with. _SorO_Lost
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The real reason that rogue is tier four is that factotum is just plain better.  As a skill monkey, a factotum has no cross class skills and most likely has more skill points as well given its emphasis on INT.  A straight rogue is also pretty MAD, or must use precious feats to make himself more SAD.  Not so with a factotum, INT all the way and anything else is a bonus (brains over brawn is a prefect example). A party with a rogue and factotum would make it very hard for the rogue to feel useful. -Samb
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Beguiler also steals virtually all the Rogue's thunder, while getting full 20 level spellcasting at Tier 3. Beguiler really gets as many skills as a rogue does, because Int is its casting stat.

A rogue that really wants to be versatile can actually have MAD problems. Dex and Int need to be high, Con for survivability, Wisdom for will saves and skills and Cha if you want to be social or UMD, and Strength for melee combat -Braithwaite

Pros: The rogue is a solid class, part of the must have four for a team. It's the second best skill monkey class out there with it's 8 points per level and easy ability room to pick up a good score in int.

Trapfinding, Trap Sense, high Reflex, (Improved) Evasion, Search and Spot lead the rogue to be the goto trap finder. It's always better to toss a d20 then to walk into a trap and kill the party. Where as Hide & Move Silently come in adding the role of scout to the rogue. Access to Diplomacy, Apprise, and Sleight of Hand coupled with their stealth they can pretty much steal and sell anything that isn't nailed down and on fire. And finally Sneak Attack is their signature class ability. They can load up with SA bonuses and TWF dealing massive amounts of damage that would hit Final Fantasy's damage cap.

Thanks to Drow of The Underdark, a rogue can both sicken and shaken a foe at the same time making them a valuable ally to a save or die spell caster. Theres also a dozen other debuff Ambush feats that increase their usefulness of SA outside of sheer damage and Crippling Strike & Wounding Weapons also means your not just going after an HP total. -SorO_Lost
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By itself it is solid class that is able to handle anything with use of skill, the right equipment and judicious use of Use Magic Device/Use Psionic Device. Use a dorje of expansion to make yourself big against huge-large foes, or just grease them with a wand. Constructs and undead are easily bypassed with a true death/ demolition augment crystal, so to say that sneak attack is a con is not accurate. UMD/UPD can usually allow a rogue (or any class with UMD/UPD as a class skill) to fill many roles in combat although not really equaling the dedicated classes. -Samb

Barbarian:

Cons: Many of its features are fairly lackluster, though with enough splatbooks, I expect you should be able to find something worthwhile to swap them out for. Rage doesn't really scale quickly enough to sustain my interest in it (you wait for 10 lvs to get a marginal improvement in it, then wait for another 9 lvs for the next bump). Is it any wonder why most deem barbarian a 1-2 lv dip? The opportunity cost of going straight barb is simply too high. You just don't get anything interesting past lv2 to justify staying in it.

As with other melee classes, your higher lv options are still pretty much limited to 5-ft+full attack and move+attack, though the barbarian gets an extra boost with pounce (assuming your DM allows complete champion). But many limitations plaguing melee classes in general tend to affect the barb as well.

Your limited feat slots invariably get locked into extra rage (1st lv) and power attack. If you have PHB2, anywhere from 2-5 more feats may get set aside for steadfast determination (and perhaps indomitable will, if you are really paranoid), plus mad foam rager as a poor man's iron heart surge. Or you could go leap attack/shock-trooper, or 3 mountains, or bounding assault feat tree or whatever combo catches your fancy (but you can likely afford only 1). So you are for most part a 1-trick pony (though arguably an extremely effective one), spamming the same 1 attack routine each round. -Runestar

Pros: Fairly easy to build, and unlike the fighter, is very hard to screw up, since rage is a class feature (you will always have it to fall back on regardless of how subpar your other build decisions such as feat/stat choices may be). So the learning curve is quite low. Good for beginning players who are not interested/lack the expertise to wade through hundreds (or is it thousands?) of feats to find out which synergize well with the others and which are stinkers not worth the paper they are printed on.

Fairly SAD as well, simply put 14-16 in con, the rest in str, and pump them every chance you get (but with more emphasis on str over con). With steadfast determination, wis is a dump stat now, you don't actually get that many useful skills to warrant boosting int past 10, and the benefits of dex seem fairly minimal (base10+6 from gloves meets the cap from mithral fullplate just nicely).

Just wield the best 2-handed weapon you can find, rage in the 1st round of combat, move and swing. The bonuses from rage are actually fairly substantial at lower lvs, and unlike conventional melee classes, the barb actually stands a chance against attacks which target his will save (vital in 3e since those are invariably save-or-die/tantamount to dying). -Runestar
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Just like fighters, they can intimidate (from the barb handbook):

Imperious Command + Instantaneous Rage + Intimidating rage (optional + Skill Trick never outnumbered) : This combo I cannot say enough about. It's the barbarian equivalent to a mage with celerity. You basically can cut off someones action and shut them down for a round making them drop what they were doing and well (die to your charge) add never outnumbered and charge the opposing force, leap attack into the midst of them then rage while mid-air. Potentially cowering their whole team. -Cru

Warlock:

Note about Warlocks: Warlocks can get very good when Prestige Classes are added, and the fact that they can eventually (like, level 17) give creatures negative levels, in an area, with damage, make them great for killing low-level mooks. In theory, warlocks have access to many sorcerer/wizard spells, like baleful polymorph, see invisibility, wall of flame, evards black tentacles, summon swarm, and so on. However, at 20th level, they only get 12 invocations out of their large list, and usually, 2 of those are Utterdark Blast (for negative levels) and Eldritch Doom (for the AoE). Maybe add in Eldritch Spear for long range...

They are good 5th party members, assuming you have the 4 basic roles filled. They also get a bunch of class abilities relating to UMD, the best skill ever. And Cha synergy! -Generic_PC

Cons: Their best invocations are equivalent to sixth level spells.  Spells double in power every two levels or so.  A warlock, therefore, is shooting bullets that are far less effective than the wizard's.  Staying power really doesn't matter at higher levels because at that point each attack is essentially save or die - would you rather like a bucket of rocks or one rocket launcher?

Time stop renders the warlock completely irrelevant for combat - the wizard already summoned a bunch of monsters in one turn, and is now shapechanged into a monster with better abilities and attacks than the lower tiers. -The_Mad_Linguist
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Make a warlock, an archer and a specialist wizard at the same level. Pick 4 (or eight) different monsters of that ECL. Have the monsters stand there while the ranged damage guys hurt them. See how many rounds it takes each class to kill the monsters. If you pick 8 monsters, let the wizard rememorise spells after 4 (usually 4 encounters per day).

Warlock will probably be last for most levels between about 6 and 20.

So a warlock is a (stand at range and put hurt on the target guy). The 2 most common classes at that role are both better at it than him. Argument over.

If an arguement starts about how many more things the warlock can do than the archer, calculate the cost to duplicate the warlocks abilities. Ring of Invisibility-20 k, Flying carpet... eyes of charming ... Now ask them how much it will cost them to raise the warlocks damage to an amount equal to the archer. They cant. Priceless... -Braithwaite
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9d6 damage at level 20 with a standard action is just pathetic, especially if it's subject to spell resistance. Even 1d6 damage at level 1 isn't that good.

One limiting factor for invocations is that a warlock is only going to know 12 of them at the most through out his whole career, unless he wants to burn feats on extra invocation. Knowing only a handful of tricks gives you no flexibility when it comes to dealing with situations. -Ninjarabbit
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After about level 6, your damage just drops off until it takes 15 or so hits to kill something, even though you are rolling 9 dice each hit. Meanwhile that Barbarian is doing x4 damage, and getting x6 on power attack, rolling 2 dice and getting 100 damage. But ultimately, you lack the damage to be a focused ranged attacker, and the versatility to make up for that, so you don't get to be a high tier. -Generic_PC

Pros: The damage portion of the class has been fixed since the Fiendish Codex II came out. Unless you are a Theurgic build there is no reason not to take Hellfire Warlock, which gives +6d6 damage to your EB and allows you to fire it as an immediate action when someone hits you. With a Greater Chasuble of Fell Power adding a further +2d6 your looking at a 17d6 ray, or about 59 damage. This of course can be done as part of a cone shaped blast to several foes and it also bestows two negative levels on a failed save. And if someone were to attack you then you could further add another 17d6 damage to the list. The Eldritch Glaive shape and Empower/Maximize Spell-Like Ability feats shoves those numbers into the range of an uber charger only better. It requires less feats (just maximize really), only an item or two (grab a rod for +5d6 damage), can be implanted into any non-theurgic build with very little effort (one least invocation slot) and has an almost guaranteed chance to hit even on the last attack where most pounce builds tend to miss. -SorO_Lost
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Warlocks are flavourful characters. They seem great at first glance, with unlimited SLAs and a ranged touch attack which adds d6 every 2 levels (or something). At early levels, they are great characters too. +6 to Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate is probably going to raise your check to higher than +10 at first level. Charisma based DCs help with social skills even more, and the invocations are great. But... Only at early levels. 2d6 every round isn't bad at level 3, where that Barbarian is still doing 2d6+1.5Str, but it won't last. At least you still have Invisibility, Flight, Negative Levels (In an area, +9d6 damage), whenever you want. -Generic_PC

Warmage:

Cons: Damage spells are generally the weakest type of combat spells and that's the majority of the warmage's spell list, a tool box only needs so many different types of hammers. And like fighter, warmages have almost no class abilities that do anything outside of combat. Warmage edge is almost completely useless outside of the first couple of levels.

Pros: Warmages however do have a few save-or-die and battlefield control spells on their spell list like some various cloud spells, sleet storm, Evard's black tentacles, wail of the banshee, and prismatic wall. Warmages can also cast in armor and with light shields, partially making up for their lack of defensive spells. The warmage also have a mechanical advantage of automanically being able to cast any spell on his spell list, useful for things like the Arcane Disciple feat. Warmages do get a few sudden metamagic feats, which is better than nothing I guess.

Warmages are good for beginner players or someone who doesn't want to take the time to mess around with a spell list, like a DM making a character on the fly. -Ninjarabbit

Scout:

A note on the Scout: The class works very well when multiclassed with ranger, due to the swift hunter feat, which makes ranger and scout levels stack for determining skirmish and favored enemies. Also it allows skirmish damage to be done to the favored enemies regardless of immunity,  which reduces the weaknesses of the class. There is also a great deal of synergy between the two classes. -Havok4

Cons: A very large number of creatures are immune to skirmish which limits its viability. It also takes a significant investment to full attack and activate skirmish and that is usually necessary to do a large amount of damage. Most of the class abilities are done by spells much earlier then the scout gets them. An example is true seeing as it is actually better in some ways then the scout's capstone ability and clerics have been using that spell since level 9. Another big issue is that lack of use magic device on the scout's skill list which limits the options of the class and often keeps it from being viable at higher levels. To be effective as a class you usually need to focus on a specific combat style and this limits your options. The biggest issue with the scout is that their primary purpose, Scouting, can be done from the safety of home with the right divination magic, making their whole purpose somewhat redundant. -Havok4

Pros: The main source of damage for this class is skirmish which can be easier to consistently activate than sneak attack. Also you get defensive buffs as part of skirmish as well. The entire class is based around movement and it gets many ability such as fast movement and eventually continuous freedom of movement. The class makes for a good trap finder and has 8+int skill points per level and a good skill list. You also get very nice stealth bonuses such as hide in plain sight and camouflage, which are identical to the ranger features but come much earlier. The bonus feats help keep the class versatile and also for greater flexibility when building the character. Also it is tougher then the closest equivalent class, the rogue, due to battle fortitude and a d8 hit die. And the capstone ability of the class is blind sight which is very nice. Also all abilities are extraordinary which makes them very hard to shut down. All in all they fit a very similar role to that of a rogue in the party. -Havok4

Ranger:

The ranger might be the most average class in D&D. It doesn't suck but it doesn't really do anything too well. I'd generally avoid the two weapon fighting combat style and stick to the archery combat style to be an effective ranger. -Ninjarabbit

Cons: Rangers are limited to light armor and only have a d8 hit dice, a problem to those who went the two weapon fighting route. Rangers by themselves don't have a high damage output, especially when fighting against non-favored enemies. Rangers suffer from MAD: needing a decent dex, con, wis, int, and str to be effective. The ranger's animal companion is way too weak to even consider using in combat. Rangers are half-casters so their spells won't be too reliable in combat without a few tricks. -Ninjarabbit

Pros: Rangers get 5 bonus feats total and they don't have to meet any prequisites for their combat feats. 6 skill points/level and a pretty good set of class skills are a very nice thing. Rangers have enough class variants across many splatbooks to keep things interesting. Rangers multiclass well with scouts, paladins, and monks thanks to the class-combo feats. Rangers do have a solid spell list, especially if you have access to certain splatbooks. -Ninjarabbit

Hexblade:

Overall the hexblade fills the niche of a debuffing warrior decently and would make a good bodyguard/cohort/tank for a spellcaster who uses quite a few save-or-x spells. It does take a moderate level of optimization skill and quite a few splatbooks to make a hexblade work since there isn't much of a margin of error in most hexblade
builds. -Ninjarabbit

Cons: The hexblade's signature abilty, the curse, is pretty weaksauce by itself and you can only use it a few timesper day. Hexblades can only cast a handful of spells per day and it's a half-caster, meaning you'll have to blow a feat on practiced spellcaster. Speaking of feats most hexblade builds are tight on feats and skill points. The bonus feats a hexblade gets are almost worthless. Hexblades are limited to light armor, not good for a class expected to be on the frontlines. -Ninjarabbit

Pros: The hexblade's spell list has quite a few gems on it like charm person, alter self, glitterdust, invisibility, slow, hound of doom, and polymorph (which qualifies the hexblade for the Minor Shapeshift reserve feat). The hexblade gets better action economy than most melee-types since many of it's abilites are free and swift actions. And since the hexblade has d10 hit dice and full BAB that means it's familiar is pretty durable, making improved familiar a viable feat choice. Arcane resistance is almost as good as divine grace and dark blessing  and stacks with those so it's something to consider when multiclassing.

The hexblade is one of the few classes that gets mettle. Hexblades have a pretty good set of class skills, including all the social skills, ride (good for an improved familiar), and the main arcane spellcasting skills. The dark companion variant is an easy and free way to start debuffing a foe. Many of the debuffing feats and abilities like dreadful wrath and frightful presence are cha-based so it synergizes well with the hexblade.
-Ninjarabbit
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The level 4 Hexblade ACF is worth mentioning.  Dark Companion is AWESOME and makes Hexblade 4 a great combination with Paladin of Tyranny 3 or Binder.  -4 (or even -6) to all saves around you is incredibly potent, especially combined with charisma to saves multiple times.  Consider something like Factotum 1/Hexblade 4/Paladin of Tyranny 4/Ur Priest 1/Bone Knight 10, for example (Factotum's there mostly to get the skill points needed for the PrCs). -JaronK


Adept:


Cons: The poor class features and limited number of spells a day holds it back. It also has a terrible spell progression. It does not get 5th level spells until level 16.

Pros: The reason for the adepts placement is that it actually has a fairly good spell list. Look at it here.

Adepts choose their spells from the following list.
0 Level

create water, cure minor wounds, detect magic, ghost sound, guidance, light, mending, purify food and drink, read magic, touch of fatigue.
1st Level

bless, burning hands, cause fear, command, comprehend languages, cure light wounds, detect chaos, detect evil, detect good, detect law, endure elements, obscuring mist, protection from chaos, protection from evil, protection from good, protection from law, sleep.
2nd Level

aid, animal trance, bear’s endurance, bull’s strength, cat’s grace, cure moderate wounds, darkness, delay poison, invisibility, mirror image, resist energy, scorching ray, see invisibility, web.
3rd Level

animate dead, bestow curse, contagion, continual flame, cure serious wounds, daylight, deeper darkness, lightning bolt, neutralize poison, remove curse, remove disease, tongues.
4th Level

cure critical wounds, minor creation, polymorph, restoration, stoneskin, wall of fire.
5th Level

baleful polymorph, break enchantment, commune, heal, major creation, raise dead, true seeing, wall of stone.
All of which can be used to great effect on a battle field. It knows every spell on that list ansd they are all useful. Some of these spells are very useful for classes that can draw from other class lists such as the chameleon or the archivist. -Havok4

Spellthief:

Spellthief: A skillmonkey with minor magical ability that can steal his foe's (or friend's) abilities. Like the hexblade, the spellthief is a low level tier 4 who's main saving grace is being able to cast alter self and polymorph. -Ninjarabbit

Cons: He only gets 5d6 sneak attack damage. The spellthief is only a half caster and probably will burn a feat on practiced spellcaster. He has MAD, needing int, cha, dex, con, and maybe even str due to limited combat options. All of his Steal X abilities require being able to sneak attack his foe, much easier said than done. The spellthief will have fewer skill points than a rogue, beguiler, and factotum doe to only getting 6 skill points/level and int not being a priority stat. -Ninjarabbit
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Remember with Master Spellthief that you still need at least 9 spellthief levels to actually store 9th level spells after you steal them.  With that said, Master Spellthief does help a lot, as builds like Spellthief 9/Mindbender 1/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Earth Dreamer 5 become viable.  But without such powerful PrCs, the Spellthief can't make good use of the spell stealing ability.  They're basically a weak Rogue that has to get the drop on Wizards and the like to be useful.  If you can pull this off, it's awesome, but without that you're rather poor.  Stealing spells from party mates usually just means you're burning through more slots than necessary for your party, but if you weren't doing that many encounters anyway it basically is like quickening other people's spells for free (since you're not wasting the action of the Wizard when you cast his spell). -JaronK
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Spell Thieves suffer from some trope I don't know the name of. Yet. We all want it to be great and try to find reasons to play it or to convince others to try it out, but it sucks. SA is too low to be useful, the rogue packs twice as much and better skills and none of us are saying the rogue should be in the center of combat.

Spell thieves lack knowledge divine/nature/planes/dungeoneering which means no spell thief knows what monster can cast what until the 13th level. Also, not everything casts spells, or is wholly dependent on casting spells to kill stuff when it comes to monsters. Stealing spells from the party is outright stupid. Who would beg the wizard in the party to give up his spell slots so you can cast something? Here's an idea, play a wizard and double the spells your entire party can cast instead. Let's just avoid the whole 'but warlocks can use the SLAs all day' thing, it's not like playing a spell thief is any better than playing a warlock.

SR lowering abilities come in feat form and don't require 15 levels in a poor class to get it. Stealing energy resistance might be useful, but if you have a blaster in the party they probably already have a way to ignore resistance. Like Wings of Flurry (does anything really have force resistance?), Maw of Chaos, Hellfire, etc. And if there isn't enough shame listed so far, just look at PrCs. Nothing the spell thief has scales with PrCs, you want to continue your spell stealing progression you'll have to forgo the more powerful option of PrCing out unless you take a PrC such as Sublime Chord or Ur Priest. But keep in mind it's not the spell thief that makes the build work, it's the PrC.

If you want the flavor of spell stealing pick up the Fiendish Codex II and read the Hellbreaker class. It grants HiPS, steal spells up to the 4th level, with clever use of TWF it can block ever single SLA a creature has within a round or two, and it can steal supernatural abilities. All within 8 levels.

Steal-Spell Effect works great against the wizard BBEG. The spell theif can give up damage to end the BBEG's spell's one by one. Except the effects come back in a few rounds, and dispel can end them all at once making it a far better choice. Hmm you know what, I can't think of a single pro for a spell thief... -SorO_Lost


Pros: The spellthief has a good spell list, being able to cast any sorcerer/wizard spell from the following schools: abjuration, divination, enchantment, illusion, and transmutation, which inclues polymorph. Can take a wide range of reserve feats, which go a long way in giving the spellthief more staying power. Spell grace does give the spellthief slightly better saving throws. He can cast spells in light armor. The spellthief has the potential to steal high level spells and SLAs. Absorb spell is potentially useful (but it requires being targeted by a foe's spell to begin with). -Ninjarabbit
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Also Master Spellthief + wizard or sorceror dip = much better. That one feat gives them a full caster level (for both classes, I think), and they lose almost nothing. -Woodenbandman
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Of course, the Spellthief does have a few fun advantages.  Being able to steal once a day spell like abilities and cast them without burning the ability can be very useful (how about a paladin's mount?).   Spellthieves combine quite nicely with Warlocks for similar reasons.  And of course with Obtain Familiar they can have a lot of fun.  Still, at the end of the day you're likely to end up feeling like a low budget version of a Factotum. -JaronK
 


Marshal:

Marshal 1 is a classic dip for Diplomancers (combined with Binder 1 for Naberius and Warlock 1 for their charming invocation).  Marshal is also incredible in low level army situations... a one or two Marshal 2s leading a group of Crusader 1s makes for a devastating low level unit. -JaronK

Cons: Outranked by Clerics (of course), but also by Bards (Basically auras with caster levels), Factotums (get int/level to certain skills per encounter), and most ToB classes (White Raven does it better). Has no way of swapping out useless auras. Very little support in outside books. Approximately 5 dead levels (including levels where only 1 aura is gained) (6, 10, 11, 13, and 18). Low number of Auras known if multiclassing. Auras are somewhat restricted (60', must hear/understand, int above 3 (problems occur with animals/mindless undead, etc.), and is canceled if she is dazed, unconscious, stunned, paralyzed, or otherwise unable to be heard or understood by his allies.) Circumstance bonuses on skills are common, and much higher than what you can probably give. -Chaos Josh

Pros: Mid Bab, d8 HD, 2 good saves, and the ability to use any Martial weapon, shield (but tower), and armor make it an adequate front line fighter (not the best, mind, but adequate). Auras are activated by a swift action (handy). Diplomacy on a Cha-based class, including free Skill focus (Diplomacy) and an aura adding Cha twice to those checks is nifty. Can grant move actions (which is very useful on a group of Melee classes). Free Skill Focus also means that Exemplar builds are plausible, especially depending on the Auras chosen. Intimidate is a class skill and it's a Cha-based class, although not as good as being able to do it swiftly. Circumstance bonuses on things other than skills are handy. -Chaos Josh


Fighter (Dungeoncrasher Variant):


A note on the Dungeon Crasher Variant Fighter: Note that the Dungeoncrasher Fighter is only in that position (Tier 4) for levels the Dungeoncrasher variant actually applies to (until level 6).  It drops back to Tier 5 after that.  It's just so darn useful with Knockback and whatnot, and the Fighter was already at the edge of Tier 4/5 anyway.  Zhentarium Fighter is absolutely Tier 4, mostly because the level 9 ability when combined with Imperious Command gives Fighters a whole other way to attack (target will saves instead of AC).  Intimidate is easy to raise, so eventually any opponent who isn't outright immune is going to be helpless. -JaronK

Cons:

Pros:

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Re: Hatchet Job Port Thread
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2013, 12:18:46 AM »
Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.

by grilledcheese

It was brought up that there's no set explanation for why low tier classes are generally less effective. With that in mind, I figured I'd start one. I'll be doing one for each tiers, but I want to get the low tiers out of the way first, because most people know why classes like Wizards and Druids are above average. I'm looking for your input on the classes, and to make this a guide for people new to CO. Thanks to all who contribute in advance.

From JaronK's Tier System For Classes guide, the widely accepted Char Op base power description thread:
 
Tier 5: Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well, or so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything, and in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute. In some cases, can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed. Has trouble shining in any encounter unless the rest of the party is weak in that situation and the encounter matches their strengths. DMs may have to work to avoid the player feeling that their character is worthless unless the entire party is Tier 4 and below. Characters in this tier will often feel like one trick ponies if they do well, or just feel like they have no tricks at all if they build the class poorly.
Examples: Fighter, Monk, CA Ninja, Healer, Swashbuckler, Rokugan Ninja, Soulknife, Expert, Paladin, Knight

On the Tier 5 dips:
It's worth noting that very few of the T5 classes are as hopeless or completely useless as it would seem from being so low on the range: 1-2 levels of monk is often worthwhile, 2-4 levels of fighter (6 with dungeoncrasher, but that's listed rightfully as T4), 1-3 levels of swashbuckler (or even taking it for 17-20 levels with daring outlaw), 1-6 levels of paladin (I like the greater dispel magic or celestial mount ACFs at 6th) are all probably good choices in many builds. 

I wish I could cover the Healer a little more, but JaronK did a great job of summing up why it's T5 (though as it is his system, that's not entirely unexpected!)  It's quite good at what it does (healing and removing status effects), but what it does simply isn't all that exciting or necessary for a large part of the game (levels 5-11, pretty much).  It's not useless by any stretch, but its main competition, the cleric, is so powerful that the Healer ends up looking much worse than it deserves.  In a party when the Healer is the only character with healing and useful spells like remove paralysis, etc., he'll feel quite useful to the party, but put him in the same party as an optimized cleric and the DM will be highly challenged to make that player feel like he's contributing anything useful.
-Akalsaris

Why Tier 5s are Tier 5:

Fighter:

Cons: Feats are inferior to good class features. Rarely can one throw a bucket of feats at an enemy unless they are very strong feats...

... but strong feats can be taken by any other character as well. -Solo
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Note that the Fighter is actually quite high in Tier 5, bordering on Tier 4.  But one of the main markers of the low tiers is a lack of flexibility.  An archer Fighter is quite good as a damage dealer... not as good as an equivalently optimized Barbarian Charger, but still quite effective.  However, that's just about all he is.  His class makes him good at dealing damage with arrows, but when the situation calls for something else (i.e. there's not a clear shot, or it's not a combat situation) his class offers him critically few options.  The same is true of most other kinds of Fighter... though the class itself can make many builds, any one build is generally either inflexible (due to specializing in just one trick) or ineffective (due to not specializing in that one trick).

A further note about the Fighter is that a lot of his tricks (shooting, charging, tripping) can be accomplished by about level 6-8.  That's great when you get your first trick, but if you try to diversify (for example, adding Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, and Leap Attack to an archer build) you're adding another trick that would be good at level 6-8... but now it's level 16.  Having two level 6-8 tricks at level 16 is as bad as a caster getting twice as many 4th level spells at 16.  It's not nearly as good as getting level appropriate abilities (in that metaphore, 8th level spells). -JaronK

Pros: One of the best non magical damage dealing classes, especially with regards to archery.  Though it requires a Barbarian dip to shine as a charger, their feats are useful for that too.  Fighters make excellent short dips for many non magic builds.  Fighters can also make very effective trippers, though Fighters can't really be effective at all of these at once (Fighters in general can be good trippers, chargers, and archers, but no one Fighter can be great at all of those).  Note that the Zhentarium Fighter is clearly Tier 4, mostly due to Imperious Command. -JaronK

Monk:

Cons: They aren't exceptional tanks due to lowish HD, medium BAB, multi-attribute dependency (and thus comparably lower combat stats than melee monsters; this also hurts their supposed strengths in Grapple, Tripping & other combat maneuvers, along with Stunning Fist; all of those heavily reward straightforward dedication to a single stat over all else, and a Monk really can't pull that off), the fact that you can't combine their movement speed with Flurry (Flurry requires full attack, movement allows only one) and lack of weapon proficiencies (unarmed strikes getting decent dice later on, but lacking in special abilities and enhancing them costs a fuckton; oh, and no reach, no AoO-builds). Flurry is needed for them to do decent damage forcing them to ignore their speed boost in combat.

They aren't exceptional scouts due to lacking Trapfinding and having relatively low skill points and being unable to afford decent Int thanks to multi-attribute dependency (Hide/Move Silently/Tumble is all good, but if you don't have Trapfinding, scouting ahead in a hostile environment is like to get you killed).

They aren't exceptional mage killers (*chuckle*) because they really have nothing to especially threaten mages with. Just like every other warrior type, their movement is inferior to teleportation (once-per-day Dimension Door doesn't cut it), they have few if any ways to locate the mage and penetrate magical defenses (Mirror Image + Displacement + Blink: good luck hitting... Or Wall of Force) and they can't even reasonably use bows so their ability to act at range is infinitely diminished. Oh, and if they somehow manage to plop an Anti-Magic Field around themselves? They just gave up like 70% of their class features. Thanks to Greater Spell Penetration (in Core)/Assay Resistance (out of Core), their multi-attribute dependency, spells that ignore saves (even just good ol' Rays like Enervation/Scorching Ray/whatever, or Forcecages or something dumb), spells that trivialize touch AC (hello, True Strike!) and so on, all their magical defenses really add up to jack shit.

They aren't exceptional skirmishers due to not being able to Flurry with standard action and their speed bonus being enhancement thus, while probably being able to somewhat remain out of the harm's way with Spring Attack, not reducing the damage their allies take one bit and dealing negligible damage themselves. Indeed, this is the worst thing a Monk can do since it means the people who do the fighting are now taking all the beatdown while the Monk isn't contributing to the team's damage in any meaningful way either. In other words, the Monk isn't taking any hits and he isn't dealing any damage this way; thus he's as good as an empty slot in the party.


And overall, their class features kinda suck. Mostly, you can look at 'em like this:
-Flurry? That's nice! Now if only I were able to focus on one stat and have full BAB, I'd be doing a lot with my extra attacks on highest bonus!
-Improved Grapple/Trip/Stunning Fist/whatever? Nice! Now, if I only were able to focus on one stat and have full BAB, I could be landing these and winning the opposed checks!
-Speed boost? That's nice! Now, if I only could move and attack with my Flurry (which "almost" makes me equal to full BAB types), I could be doing something! Oh, and if this only stacked with magical speed boosts I'd actually be faster than the other classes.
-Unarmed Strikes? That's nice! Now, if I only got size increases or something so the damage dice would actually add up to something, and got 2x Power Attack returns and full BAB, this could add up to something!
-Ki Strikes? Nice, my unarmed strikes pretend to be weapons and get some minor abilities that almost replicate what my 1000gp weapon does! If only my WPL wasn't 100000...
-Slow Fall? So I get to replicate a 1st level spell by level 20? No? It only works next to walls? Well, almost replicate a 1st level spell!
-All this nice stuff, Abundant Step, Quivering Palm, Empty Body, I can replicate many kinds of spells poorly...once per DAY! Oh, make it Once per WEEK for that scary scary, broken Finger of Death With Save DC Derived Off Secondary Stat That Requires An Attack To Hit To Be Used.
-Oh, there's more? I get to replicate few more random low level spells? Cool. Oh, and Evasion? Yeah, nice, my Reflex-saves actually matter something! That's like...25k saved on the Ring.
-I get Spell Resistance? Just to ensure my team can't waste a Heal on me when I'm about to die? Cool!


Lack of synergy and multi-attribute dependency pretty much screw Monks up. Oh, and the good class features being limited to Very Few Uses Per Day. Seriously, if Monks had the ability to use Flurry whenever making an attack, if they got like Wis x uses of their now-daily abilities and the ability to use Dex for combat maneuvers, and Wis/Dex for damage, they'd be just fine. Grab Weapon Finesse/Intuitive Attack and they'd be able to go to town. As all those things are fucked up though, they don't. As I mentioned above, those multiclass builds easily sidestep these issues. Mono-classed Monks don't though. -Eldariel
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Monk 2 with Tashalatora feat / Ardent 18 , is waayyy superior to Monk 20. It's not even close. -Awaken DM Golem

Pros: Though horrible as a long class, these guys are an awesome dip.  Monk 1, Monk 2, and Monk 6 are all solid break points, providing many bonus feats, full saves, and Wis to AC (which Carmendine Monk or Kung Fu Genius can turn into Int to AC).  This class goes great with Shou Disciple, which progresses flurry and gives full BAB.  The class is heavily upstaged by the Unarmed Variant Swordsage, but it's still a solid dip.  Consider Monk 6/Shou Disciple 5/Kensai 9 or Monk 6/Shou Disciple 5/Unarmed Swordsage 9 as solid examples of a fighting monk build.  Monk 1/OA Samurai 1/Warblade 8/Shou Disciple 5/Iajuitsu Master 5 is another solid build.  The combination of Sense Motive and Diplomacy on a wisdom based class can be very handy... our party will often back up the skill monkeys with a Monk during social encounters, with the monk using Sense Motive to watch the interaction.  Monk is also a solid dip with Druid, since you can use iterative attacks with your unarmed strikes while Wild Shaping, and Wis to AC is handy if you can't purchase a Monk's Belt. -JaronK

CA Ninja:

Cons: The weakest of the skillmonkeys, tied with the Expert.  Sudden Strike is simply not as good as Sneak Attack.  His invisibility powers are handy at low levels, but at those levels he can't use them very often, and at high levels too many things have Blindsight or can see invisibility.  His MAD problems are nasty, making it hard for him to have enough skill points to truly be a skill monkey, and this combined with his more limited skill list and only 6+ skills (low for a skill monkey) combine to make him inferior at that role.  Poison Use is cute, but to make poisons effective you need to be able to generate them yourself (as a Factotum with Minor Creation can) and you'd want the Master of Poisons feat anyway.  And too many of his neat abilities are easily created via cheap magic items, such that any class can have those abilities anyway.  In the end, it's just a weak version of an Unarmed Swordsage or Factotum, and putting this class next to those two classes makes it clear the class is far behind (and it's distinctly worse than a Rogue, too). -JaronK

Pros: They've got a few very cool class abilities... they're just upstaged by most of the other skill monkeys and have too many downsides.  But stuff like Ghost Mind is pretty cool, and if you don't have ToB their ability to phase through walls when needed is pretty handy for an infiltrator.  If you do have ToB, the Swordsage just does this better. -JaronK

Healer:

Cons: The thing is, Healers are only good at one thing for the first 16 or so levels... healing.  Specifically, in combat healing, because a lot of other classes are much better out of combat healers (Clerics and Druids with the Vigor line, Dread Necromancers in groups healed by negative energy, Binders with Buer, Crusaders, etc).  In combat healing, however, isn't terribly useful... as a rule, it's better to spend that spell getting the enemy dead faster and then healing later than wasting actions healing with spot heals while your enemies use their actions to deal more damage than your cure spell.  Obviously the Heal spell changes that, but until that point in combat healing tends to be a bad idea (Crusaders obviously are a strong exception).  As such, Healers fall in the catagory of "In some cases, can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed."  They do in combat healing very well, but in combat healing usually isn't the best idea anyway.  They're like Monks in that respect... sure, Monk run speed is incredible, but high ground run speed is not something most parties actually need.

So yeah, the only thing they really do well is in combat healing, which isn't important.  As general healers, they're not as good as the guys that can do more efficient long term heals... and that's actually a lot of classes these days.

Now, when a healer hits level 17 and gets Gate, the whole ballgame changes... but so few games are actually played in the 17-20 range that I didn't want to rank them higher just for those few levels. -JaronK

Pros: Hey, they get Gate.  That's awesome when you finally get it. -JaronK
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They also get some spells earlier than other classes, like Mass Heal at 8th, Greater Restoration at 6th, Stone to Flesh at 5th, and Restoration at 3rd, which is nice.  Mostly having Mass Heal in 8th level slots is the best part, since that leaves 9th level slots open for Gate. -Akalsaris

Swashbuckler:


Cons: The Swashbuckler, as has been stated before, is a three level class. (Although there is some back and forth about the usefulness of their 4th level ability. Beyond that point, you gain abilities you could have received elsewhere (Slippery Mind, Skill Mastery). Swashbucklers also suck majorly against anything immune to critical hits, because they just lost a primary source of damage (Insightful Strike) and any chance to swing the battle in their favor by damaging the enemy's attributes. Their class features are, a majority of the time, simply improved numbers (higher flanking bonuses/bonuses to AC against one enemy/Reflex saves), and they have just a dash of MAD. -Bozwevial
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Summary
A Swashbuckler is a more focused Fighter with 2 more skill points per level and different class skills.  They get social skills (Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive), but none of their class abilities rely on WIS or CHA.  Their class abilities require them to be unencumbered and wearing light or no armor, which might be OK were Hide and Move Silently class skills!   A Swordsage gets 3/4 BAB, but 2 good saves, Evasion, more skill points, stealth skills as class, maneuvers, and their WIS bonus to AC while in light armor (and maybe no armor, depending on your interpretation).  Even a core-only Rogue can fill a Swashbuckler's roles at least as well, save for the BAB, but Rogue16/Ranger2/Fighter2 functions similarly.

A Swashbuckler has its place in a game.  A 1-level dip provides Weapon Finesse and more skill points than Fighter1, and Swashbuckler3 grants Insightful Strike, but unless your character has a super high INT, you love finessable/light weapons, and you aren't sure where to go the next 3 levels, avoid this class!

For comparison purposes, I earnestly believe a Soulknife, Fighter, or Healer is significantly ahead of a Swashbuckler, putting ol' swashy near the bottom of tier 5.  It's like the class designer looked at the Fighter table, gutted the thing, and slapped on some minor patches just before deadline.

I wish there were something... redeeming about this class, but it's a waste of space that should have been made into a PrC of no more than 3 levels, or have Insightful Strike be a feat.

Abilities
Weapon Finesse [1] -  A Fighter can also get this at level 1 but a Rogue or Swordsage must wait 'til 3 or multiclass.

Grace [2, 11, 20] - At best, you get a minor bonus to your Reflex save (+1 at L2, +2 at L11, +3 at L20), if you're light enough.  You don't get Evasion, which even Monks, Rangers, and Rogues get in core and Swordsages get in Tome of Battle..

Insightful Strike [3] - You get your INT bonus to damage with light or finessable weapons against anything not crit immune, but that's your only redeeming feature.  This stacks with your STR bonus, but a multi-hander with Power Attack easily do better with less MAD, or a Swordsage with the Shadow Blade feat can even multi-wield with less of a problem.  This seems most useful with a spiked chain wielder who wants more damage.

Dodge [5, 10, 15, 20] - You get Dodge as the feat, but it improves slightly as you level.  Dodge is one of the weakest feats around and the AC bonus is minor at best.

Acrobatic Charge [7] - You can avoid rough terrain when charging, but any character with a high enough Jump and Tumble can do that.  Oops!  Psionic characters can use Up the Walls to do similar things from level 1, and a Hood, if properly built, doesn't care what terrain "blocks" her path; she circumnavigates it by jumping or flying.

Improved Flanking [8] - You and only you get +4 instead of +2 when flanking.  Accuracy bonuses are cheap.  Buy one.

Lucky [11] - A Cleric of Luck can do this at level 1.  You're only 10 levels behind.

Acrobatic Skill Mastery [13] - You can always take 10 on Jump or Tumble checks.  At this level, you can probably easily afford items to boost these skills enough you won't notice.  Really; you're level 13.  The Wizard just got plane shift and reverse gravity.  In a fully logical world, he'd be binding efreet by now for wish loops.  You can take 10 on Jump checks.  Do the math.

Weakening Critical [14] - Against targets vulnerable to crits, you also do 2 STR damage when you crit.  I do at least that much at level 1 with a ray of enfeeblement.  To be fair, the party Wizard probably banned Necromancy long ago, but foes at this level who are crit immune probably aren't fazed by losing 2 STR.  Unless you seriously pump your crit range and accuracy, you'll be critting on a 15 at best, and more likely on a 17 or 19.

Slippery Mind [17] - One round after you fail a save against a mind-affecting Enchantment effect, you can reroll your save.  A Warblade or Swordsage can do similar things from level 1 with Moment of Perfect Mind, potentially auto-saving.  (A +40 Concentration is possible, even likely, by level 15ish.)  Alternatively, a Rogue could get this at level 10, or at level 13 if he took Improved Evasion at 10, which he probably did.

Wounding Critical [19] - You also do 2 CON damage when you crit something- and mind you, many things at this level aren't crittable.  This would be handy, possibly very spiffy, around level 6.  A Wounding weapon (+2) does 1 CON damage per hit.  A Spell Storing weapon could store a Clerical bestow curse for a similar effect. -Endarire

Pros:the Daring Outlaw feat almost redeems the swashbuckler. A rogue4/swashbuckler16 has almost full BAB, full sneak attack, and trapfinding with a good number of skill points. -Ninjarabbit

Rokugan Ninja:

Cons: A level 20 Rokugan Ninja is Tier 5 because its class features don't give it any more real options then an NPC Warrior. It can move faster than a Rogue and hit as hard, but with only 4+int skills and a worse skill list and a d6 hit die a Rokugan Ninja can't bring anything special to the table at higher levels. -Juton

Pros: As a dip class it can be wonderful, full BAB and an increase to sneak attack or Int to Initiative at level 4. -Juton

Soulknife:

Cons: It's "magic" weapon scales slower than normal magic weapons. It looks like a sneaky class, but Psychic Strike requires ditching your Move action; defeating the purpose. It's overall structure ends up about the same as the NPC Warrior class ... not good. Oriental Adventure's Samurai 1 is superior to the whole class, except for the (su) self generating blade. Mind's Eye updated the Psychic Warrior, to have 1 power effectively replace almost the whole class of Soulknife. Wow ... or Why?! Warrior 18 / Psychic Warrior 2 or Adept 2, is better and more versatile. Soulknife 1 / Wilder or PsyWar 19 , is waayyy superior to Soulknife 20. It's not even close. But hey, you can still act important and sneaky. -Awaken DM Golem

Pros:

Expert:


Cons: Before the factotum, the expert had an extremely niche use of being able to pick 10 class skills.  After the factotum came out with all skills as class skills, class features, and greater than or equal to features for everything else, the expert became strictly suboptimal. One thing the expert can do pretty well - pump up charisma, and deal damage with Iajutsu focus while using UMD for spells. -The_Mad_Linguist
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Expert 1 vs. Rogue 1 , an argument could be made for Expert 1, in very very rare circumstances.
Expert 3+ vs. Rogue 3+ ... it's not even close. -Awaken DM Golem

Pros: Iajuitsu Focus makes these guys shockingly effective in combat for an NPC skillmonkey class.  Bust out the Gnomish Quickrazors and go to town... these guys can actually show up the CA Ninja at combat with some work (and party support).  Diplomacy and UMD can be very useful (if campaign dependent) skills.  And Autohypnosis is likewise a very handy skill to throw in there.  Sure, Factotums are pretty much strictly better, but if you wanted to play as an NPC class, this is one of the best (the Adept is better, but the Expert is still solid). -JaronK

Paladin:


Cons: Paladins suck due to almost the same conditions that make a fighter suck. They are 1~2 trick ponys and every single one of those tricks is considerably lesser than what other classes can do.

First off a Paladin requires four abilities which leads them to having very low scores overall in point buy or to have poor scores in key abilities from low rolls. They have very little to offer skill wise outside of diplomacy, but to even take that a Paladin would require 12 int since their two skill points would be spent in Handle Animal and Ride.

As for their other abilities they are mostly flavorful. Detect Evil for example is pretty moot. If it's attacking then attack back. If it's an evil guy undercover then his alignment is likewise hidden for a handful of coin. Smite Evil is one of the Paladin's signature abilities it's per day usage renders it worthless. By the 20th level you can smite five times per day. Comparatively a Fist of Raziel gives five smites over a ten level period and Ordained Champion gives you 3 + cha mod on the first level. Secondly, the damage bonus isn't all that great. Most people tend to PrC out by the 6th level for better class abilities which means your smite damage is only a mere +6 bonus which is something you could dig up for less than 5k on magical items. Unlike a touch attack spell if you miss with smite it is still expended and don't expect to gain much of an attack bonus with that low charisma. Even new players will see how worthless Remove Disease is so I won't comment on that one. The Code of Conduct is mostly there for players to argue what is allowed or not.

The Charging Smite is a useful and fixes the miss problem with smite and helps them turn into an ubercharger but it costs the Paladin their other signature class ability. The mount. I consider the Mount to be the best Paladin class ability, which in a way tells you just how badly they suck. When you first get it at the 5th level all you can do is replicate a first level spell once per day. Later on it it's worse than the effect of a 3rd level spell called Phantom Steed. At least that steed won't impose a month long penalty to your combat when it gets fireballed.

The spell list too limited to be useful and casting uses up the Paladin's standard action for a minor buff or a cure effect no one has any use for. There is a class substitution to replace the list with wizard spells. But a duskblade is a much, much better choice. So is a sorcerer/fighter/eldritch knight...

Finally anything a Paladin can do a Cleric can do better. Clerics are better at healing, turning, spell casting, summoning pets, and are not that far behind a Paladin combat wise. Divine Power quickly makes up for that. For an added insult there are PrCs that give full Paladin-like flavor and abilities in less levels. A Paladin's build choices are actually more limited than a fighters' who at least has thousands of feats to choose from and are all subpar in the same way JaronK says the fighter's abilities are.
-SorO_Lost

Pros: The base class is quite lacking, but the variant Paladins can be quite useful.  Paladin of Tyranny is an awesome 3 level dip, for example, and combined well with Hexblade 4 (with Dark Companion).  Standard Paladin 2 is a lot of fun for Kobold Sorcerer gishes, who can take those levels and still have full caster progression (via Loredrake and the Greater Draconic Rite).  Note that the PrC Paladin is far stronger than the regular Paladin, though that's partly because it gives all of the useful Paladin abilities in just three levels while losing you only one caster level.  And Detect Evil at will can be very handy in some specific sorts of campaigns. -JaronK
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I know it isn't a huge deal, but I believe the splat books and, specifically, the Spell Compendium added some noteworthy spells for Paladins.  Some of them can be quite cool and useful.  I'm not trying to say they bring the Paladin out o this tier, but I feel they are worth mentioning in the Pros section. -Optimator

Knight:


Cons: Like the Healer, the Knight was designed to only fill a single role: tanking.  Unlike the Healer, tanking is at least a solid and useful role for the party from levels 1-20.  However, tanking is the only role that the Knight can fill well, as he has almost no damage-related abilities and no social skills except for Intimidate (like a fighter) and Knowledge (Nobility).  If he had been given 4 skills/level and Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive, the Knight's natural Charisma synergy would have helped him to be on par in that role with a paladin or a crusader - but unfortunately he isn't.  So he fits into T5 by virtue of lack of versatility - he does one thing quite well, but very little else.

Many of his feats and abilities are also slightly unfocused - he gets Mounted Combat and Ride, but no other mounted-related abilities; and he gets Shield Block but is unable to use tower shields.  In any encounter that needs a solid tank, he'll shine - unless that party already has a crusader, warblade, druid, binder, etc.  In encounters that don't require a tank (spell-casting opponents, archers, mass combat, traps, anything RP-related), the Knight will generally be of little help to the party as well. -Akalsaris

Pros: Bulwark of Defense is awesome.  Too bad there's a maneuver that does basically the same thing, and most of the rest of their abilities are poor.  But Bulwark is awesome, and don't forget Diplomacy as a class skill. -JaronK

Divine Mind:

Pro/Con (can't really tell) - Swift 1 Linked Psychic Reformation, allows a complete rebooting of the class during the second round of combat. Any other manifester class can do this sooner. But it does open the whole range of the class, at a steep experience price. Broken use of a broken power, to emulate a Marshal 1 with big tricks. Is this a Pro or a Con ?! -Awaken DM Golem

ConsUbernoob was right, the original didn't work. An awful late WotC edit of the Ardent spawned this monstrosity. Slow Marshall 1 plus Slow Adept 16 is better. Marshall 1 / Warrior 1 / Commoner 2 / Adept 16 outpaces the original. Mind's Eye updates are MANDATORY. Least expandability of any class WotC has published. Original is Tier 6, but really only because the design was screwy. -Awaken DM Golem

ProsMind's Eye updates save the class a little bit. Substitute Powers saves the power choices. The Turn Undead option make some Auras more useable. Hidden Talent on Wisdom, secret stacks with the Soulknife Hidden Talent; if you think 1st level powers are worth writing home about. Hey anybody want yet another Astral Construct? Divine Mind now has too much of them. Recharge Power Points available right off the bat. Hi level aura can locate any Outsider ... you'd call it broken if it was a Tier 1 with this. Limited enough list of powers, that you could allow the borkt Power Stone trick, and you still wouldn't be a Tier 2 caster. This is a "pro" because broken that isn't broken is fun. -Awaken DM Golem

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Re: Hatchet Job Port Thread
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2013, 12:19:31 AM »
Why Tier 6s are in Tier 6

by the same guy

It was brought up that there's no set explanation for why low tier classes are generally less effective. With that in mind, I figured I'd start one. I'll be doing one for each tiers, but I want to get the low tiers out of the way first, because most people know why classes like Wizards and Druids are above average. I'm looking for your input on the classes, and to make this a guide for people new to CO. Thanks to all who contribute in advance.

From JaronK's Tier System For Classes guide, the widely accepted Char Op base power description thread:

Tier 6: Not even capable of shining in their own area of expertise. DMs will need to work hard to make encounters that this sort of character can contribute in with their mechanical abilities. Will often feel worthless unless the character is seriously powergamed beyond belief, and even then won't be terribly impressive. Needs to fight enemies of lower than normal CR. Class is often completely unsynergized or with almost no abilities of merit. Avoid allowing PCs to play these characters.

Examples: CW Samurai, Aristocrat, Warrior, Commoner, Divine Mind (before Mind's Eye updates)

Why Tier 6s are Tier 6:

CW Samurai


Cons: Oh, where to start? It has 2+Int skills so its skill list is just as useful as the Paladin's (except instead of having to max out Ride, you have to max out Intimidate, which requires notably more work to make work and higher base stat to be worth anything). It has limited alignments and indeed, like a Paladin, you can fall (although thanks to Ronin, that's actually the best thing about the class!), which is something the class doesn't need. It has a bunch of bonus feats, yes, but look at the feats:
Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword (level 1): Bastard Sword is the worst weapon in game being a poor two-hander and one-handing being just bad, not to mention the +1 average damage compared to Longsword just isn't worth it.
Two-Weapon Fighting (level 2): Extremely limited, only usable with Samurai weapons
Quick Draw (level 6): Extremely limited and only normally useful for some niché thrower builds
Improved Initiative (level cool: Actually useful!
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (level 11): Notice the level!! Still limited and this is a level 6 feat.
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (level 16): Again 5 levels late and only usable with the two shitty weapons.
Frightful Presence (level 20): Bad feat in the first place ('cause it only works on opponents with lower HD) and it's your capstone. Go home and cry. Now. Whatever isn't immune by now is going to make the save 'cause you can't focus on Cha since you need Str to attack.

In other words, you get one useful feat and a bunch of feats late, that could be useful if they weren't forced to be used with his two shitty daishos. He also has quite some MAD being only able to dump Int (which kills the one good thing about it, the slightly-better-than-Fighter skill list) and maybe Wis if he burns two feats on Steadfast Determination with Dex ~12 being workable.

In short, 20 levels of Samurai get you:
One decent feat
4 Smite-attacks per day
Move-action Intimidate out to 30'

Sounds like fun? Oh, and you have a friggin' Code of Conduct to deal with which counterbalances the slight advantages you have over the Warrior listed below. Would be good for focused Intimidators if...y'know, Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, Bard, Cleric and company didn't do it better and if Intimidating was actually worth 10 class levels. -Eldariel
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Mass Staredown is awesome when combined with Imperious Command.  Well, maybe not awesome, but pretty cool.  Unfortunately, Zhentarium Fighter does it better (Swift Action, so you can still attack), and the Dread Pirate and Scarlet Corsair PrCs both provide far superior versions of this ability. -JaronK

Pros: It has full BAB, d10 HD & good Fortitude-save. It also has Sense Motive and Diplomacy in class as notable advantages over Fighter. It also has few bonus feats and one class feature in Mass/Improved Staredown; being able to Intimidate multiple creatures with one move action and at range is actually kinda useful (if you didn't need the actions to...y'know, full attack). Oh, and he has Smite which is still usable...once per day most of the time.

Seriously, the absolute best thing about this class is that you can fall after level 11 to become an Ex-Samurai 1/Ronin 10 with actual class features! -Eldariel
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I like the samurai's Staredown ability, since it gives a different attack option than simply DMG and AC.  A 14th level samurai can intimidate 2/R (double move action), or 3/R with a Belt of battle (MIC), so in 1 round he can send all opponents within 30ft to frightened or panicked.  Zhentarim Fighter does this better, but it's a web enhancement to a campaign-specific book, so it won't always be available to PCs.

Samurai 10 with the Fearsome Armor enhancement (DoTU) and the Imperious Command feat can do the double intimidate 4 levels sooner than normal, and send foes cowering for 1 round first.  Of course, at that level a Zhentarim fighter with that armor can do a triple intimidate, but whatever.

The samurai is better than the NPC Warrior class - it actually has class features and a higher HD.  Even if you break the code of honor (which is simple: don't be dishonorable or chaotic), all you lose are the Cha-based class features, so you would still keep Improved Initiative, etc.  You could even be LE and just strive to be evil without being dishonorable, like Lord Soth or something.

Decent prestige classes for the samurai:
Exotic Weapon Master: 1 level gets the Exotic Blow ability, which is very solid PA damage.
Ronin: Mentioned earlier.
Kensai: The Samurai is one of the few classes with all Kensai class skills, and the oath of service meshes well with the samurai's vow.  It's not THAT exciting, but it is a very flavorful class, and choosing your own weapon enhancements is a lot of fun.  Also, you can return to Samurai after completing kensai (But why would you??)
Knight Protector: This will make you more of a tank, though none of the features are awesome (as a sidenote, you gain Tower Shield proficiency without knowing any other shields!  Weird, huh?).  Also, you can return to Samurai after completing Knight Protector (But why would you??)
Knight of the Iron Glacier (FB): C'mon.  It already requires EWP: Bastard Sword, and you KNOW you want to ride a giant rhinoceros!
Bloodstorm Blade (TOB): First, it requires MCing into warblade, which is better than samurai.  Second, it will let you change your EWP: Bastard Sword to any other weapon - and the same should apply to your other subpar feats that specify only a bastard sword and short sword.  Besides, throwing weapons as a full melee attack is just awesome. -Akalsaris

Aristocrat:


Cons: It has a slightly worse frame than a Druid, Binder, or Cleric (lacking the good Fort save)... but it has no class features, spells etc. whatsoever. Nada. And the high starting gold doesn't matter if you start higher than level 1. -Agita

Pros: It gets the highest starting gold of all classes (4d8x10 gp), and it has average basic stats (Medium BAB, good Will save, d8 hit dice). Has Diplomacy and all synergy-relevant skills as class skills, so it can be a mean diplomancer in a NPC class-only campaign. -Agita

Warrior:


Cons: No class features, only a d8 hit dice, worst set of class skills in the game -Ninjarabbit

Pros: Full BAB and proficient with martial weapons and all armors and shields -Ninjarabbit
----------------------------------------------
If you want to play as an ex-paladin, you can't advance in the class any further.  Levels in warrior will advance you just as if you had taken more levels of ex-paladin. -The_Mad_Linguist
----------------------------------------------
One pro for the Warrior is that if you build him as a charger, you can very easily be strong enough to take out enemies above your CR.  Something like Orc Warrior with Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Mounted Combat, Ride By Attack, Spirited Charge, and Headlong Rush, riding any random flying creature, with a Valorous Lance... you should have little trouble doing 350+ damage per hit by level 20.  If you want to try and actually look powerful as an NPC class, and it's a very combat heavy campaign, the Warrior can get the job done. -JaronK


Commoner:


Cons: d4 hit dice, poor BAB, poor saves, no class features, only proficent in one simple weapon. -Ninjarabbit

Pros: Ummm....ummmm...... oh yeah it can qualify for the Survivor PrC after level 1 and can take the chicken-infested flaw, has spot and listen as class skill so it's better than the fighter in that respect. -Ninjarabbit

Divine Mind (before Mind's Eye updates):

Cons: Aristocrat with Mercantile feat, is better and more versatile. That's all you need to beat it. Half way to Paladin's roleplaying restrictions, and bad flavor combo with psi. Worst "spell" access in the game. Very bad "spell" list until around 10th level, and possibly useless on some levels before that. Auras are the main class feature and they are almost not an aura at the start. Some auras are useless before 10th level. Psi-focus vs Expend Psi-focus problems are a possible bad combo early on. A CO-built and run Wizard 2 can probably beat any Divine Mind build that isn't an Initiative build. Ouch. -Awaken DM Golem


Pros:
Divine Mind can have Epic Spells at level 30, the same level it gets Free Aura switching. Might be a difficult BBEG for level 15 delayed casters (not 8s). See the Mind's Eye and all the Psi stuff, other psi-classes aren't supposed to use  , and you have a Tier 5 or better. Even a Divine Mind can do a pun-pun + pazuzu power up, just not right away. -Awaken DM Golem

Offline Toptomcat

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Re: Hatchet Job Port Thread
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2013, 12:21:00 AM »
Tier system for templates

by snakeman830

Classes and prestige classes have their tier systems.  This time, the ratings will be comparing the benefits and drawbacks of a template compared to its level adjustment.  This listing will be for templates with listed level adjustments ONLY.

So, what does it mean to be in each tier?  The definitions below are assuming you're playing to the template's strengths (i.e., no Feral Wizards)

Tier 1: These templates are ones that you would take almost without a second thought if they were allowed.  In fact, these templates are so good, there had better be a good reason why you didn't take them.  Most of the templates in this category can easily be considered broken.

Tier 2: These templates are strong choices. Their benefits are easily worth the class levels you give up for them, but they aren't going to hinder your character if you don't take them.

Tier 3: These templates are about even with the class levels you give up.  It doesn't make much difference in the power of your character either way.

Tier 4: Tier 4 templates aren’t worth their LA.    Templates of this level will likely hinder your character more than help, but they won’t make the character unplayable.

Tier 5: These are the templates that are never worth their cost.  If you took one of these templates, you had better have a darn good reason why you did (and yes, the DM forcing it on you counts).  Tier 5 templates will hinder your character and will most likely make it close to unplayable.

Dragonborn: Dragonborn deserves special mention.  Unlike other templates, what you gain and lose from it is highly dependent on your starting race.  For example, a Catfolk makes out extremely well with this template (Tier 2), but for a Human it’s a terrible choice (tier 4 or 5).

Templates that combine creatures: Likewise, there are some templates (Entomanthrope, Lycanthrope (MM1), Tauric (MM2, SS) and Symbiotic (SS)) that combine two creatures.   Listing them in a specific tier may be misleading.  The benefits from these templates varies greatly with what creatures are chosen.  For example, a werefleshraker is a much more potent template than a wereboar, much more potent that the ECL of 1 higher would suggest.  For this reason, these templates will not be listed.

Savage Progressions:  Some templates have Savage Progressions printed for them.  For those not familiar with these, Savage Progressions spread out the benefits of a race or template over multiple levels equalling the race's ECL.  My ratings for these are going to be based on buying off each level of level adjustment ASAP.  If the Progression specifically cannot be split up, then simply consider the normal template entry.

Book tags

BoED  Book of Exalted Deeds
BoVD  Book of Vile Darkness
DragMz  Dragon Magazine (number follows)
DotU  Drow of the Underdark
LM  Libris Mortis
LoM  Lords of Madness
MM  Monster Manual (numbers follow)
PnH  Planar Handbook
Sand  Sandstorm
Storm  Stormwrack
SoX  Secrets of Xen'drik
SS  Savage Species
ToM  Tome of Magic
Und  Underdark
XPH  Expanded Psionics Handbook

T1:
Artic +0 (DragMz 306)
Divine Minion +1 or +2 (Web Enhancement)
Feral +1 (SS)
Half Minotaur +1 (DragMz313)
Magic Blooded +0 (Drag Mz 297?)
Mineral Warrior +1 (Und)
Primordial Giant +0 (SoX)
Saint (without RP requirements) +2 (BoED)
Unseelie Fey +0 (DragMz Compendium)
White Dragonspawn +1 (location needed)

Savage Progressions
Ghost 1-4 Web Enhancement

T2:
Dark Creature +1 (ToM)
Draconic +1 (RotD, Drac)
Half Fey +2 (FF)
Lolth Touched +1 (DotU)
Necropolitan +0 (but see text)(LM)
Phrenic +2 (XPH)
Quasilycanthrope +1 (Web Enhancement)
Saint (with RP requirements) +2 (BoED)
Shadow Creature +2 (PnH, LoM)
Spellwarped +3 (MM3)
Voidmind (freed) +3 (MM3)

T3:
Half Air Elemental +3 (MotP, DragMz 326)
Half Dragon (with racial HD) +3 (MM)
Half-Vampire +2 (LM)

Savage Progressions
Ghost 5 Web Enhancement

T4:
Amphibious +0 (Storm)
Ghost +5 (MM1)
Half Celestial +4 (MM1)
Half-Dragon (without racial HD) +3 (MM1)
Half Fiend +4 (MM1)
Lich +4 (MM1)
Shade +4 (Races of Faerun)

T5:
Celestial +2 (MM1)
Fiendish +2 (MM1)
Vampire +8 (MM1)
Voidmind (enslaved) +3 (MM3)

Offline Toptomcat

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Re: Hatchet Job Port Thread
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2013, 12:24:21 AM »
The War Compendium
by Talore

-The War Compendium-
By Talore, and community

[sexy image]

"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle."

"Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win."
-Both from Sun Tzu's The Art of War


Welcome to the battlefield.  Whether you be a common soldier, a lieutenant, or a general, you had better have decent CON, INT, and WIS to survive the theatre of war. In these pages you shall see the cumulative knowledge of myself and the community on the topic of war, specifically war in D&D.

Table of Contents:
1) Scale of War: What size of a game are we talking about? Are you crafting the army? Is it a normal party on black op missions? Are you part of a platoon, or leading it? Are you the general, making your own troops? Can you even participate in battle? What freedom of command do you have, and when must you bend it?
2) Party Roles and War: What makes an effective war hero? How do tanks, skillmonkeys, buffers, and gods affect the battlefield? What must one keep in mind when selecting feats, spells, items, and prestige classes?
3) Tactical Spells: How to turn your full-caster into the sculptor of war. A list of spells or types of spells or dominating the battlefield through movement, buffs, battlefield control, debuffs, damage, summons, etc.
4) Party Tactics: How to form up, move, defend, and become a multi-headed beast on the battlefield
5) Minion Tactics: Whether you can select followers or are stuck with conscripts, this page will aid you in turning low-level NPCs into fighting machines. Cover equipment, classes, formations, strategy, etc.
6) On Information: Divination, scouting, spying, and deception shall all be covered. They all carry degrees of risk, but the advantages may far outweigh the risks in such actions (especially if a mook is doing the dirty work!) as well as ways to proof your own side from such measures.
7) On Leadership: Leadership, and its variants, are a rules-supported, easy to use, and effective ways of gaining followers and soldiers. Here we shall delve into circumstances specific to leadership that don’t apply to the Minion Tactics section. We’ll also discuss in brief alternative ways of gaining (semi) permanent followers. Cash, crafting, binding, etc.
8) On Buildings: The Stronghold Builders Guidebook contains a wealth of usable information. See what advantages can be gained from construction of everything from mud-packed walls to flying siege platforms! Additionally, we shall eamine the ways to breach and defend structures.
9) On Ambushes: Rounds are a precious economy. From simply gaining a surprise round to preparing for hours in advance, ambushes can allow an inferior force obliterate a much stronger force. We’ll discuss how to set up ambushes, what is effective versus what is not, ways to avoid detection, and how to detect ambushes yourself.
10) On Alliances: Allies are fickle. They do not share the same goals and motivations as you, most of the time. I’ll basically rip off what Sun Tzu has to say about alliances, and how to avoid being screwed by turncoats or cowards.
11) ‘General’ Advice: If you’re the commander of an army, you’d best know how to pick your battles, manage a whole army (hint: delegation of roles), and win the war!
12) Behind the DM screen: Hey, it’s not only players what frequent the boards, and many are also DMs. Here shall be a compilation of advice from myself and the community on running the war campaign. It’s difficult, but it can be extremely rewarding.
13) Other Tips and Tricks: Random useful tidbits that don’t fit into the above categories. A lot of random support from the community will go here, if I predict things right.
14) Builds: Be they minions or characters, the board loves to stat out ready-to-go people, so this post shall be a repository for them.
15) Handy Links and Credits: Honour where honour is due, and links to utilities that myself or other community members find helpful in the discussion of war.

Please note that the next 15 posts shall be reserved. Please do not post untill I am finished reserving. But after that, please post as much useful information, builds, etc. that you can!

Scale of War

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"It is the rule in war, if our forces are ten to the enemy's one, to surround him; if five to one, to attack him; if twice as numerous, to divide our army into two. If equally matched, we can offer battle; if slightly inferior in numbers, we can avoid the enemy; if quite unequal in every way, we can flee from him." -Sun Tzu, The Art of War

There are many ways in which to run, and ultimately experience the war campaign. It is important to identify the method of gameplay, in order to prepare yourself with the tactics and knowledge needed to seize victory. This is a very basic part of one of Sun Tzu's main points: that you must know yourself if you plan on winning battles. Know yourself and your enemy, and you shall win a hundred battles. If you don't even know your rank, how will you know yourself?
Therefore, I shall identify what I observe to be the main modes of operation for war campaigns. Namely, there are three levels of gameplay in the war campaign.

---------------------------

(1) The Soldier
When playing at the soldier level, your tactical decisions are relatively few. You are usually in control of only your own character. I entitle this gameplay style as the soldier, but it encompasses much more than being a rank-and-file pikesman. The staple of this style is the 'strike team,' a small group of elite forces (the party) which is sent on missions of great importance, often requiring great power, skill, and stamina. In this sense the war is very much a narrative background. The DM will usually describe the war and how you're affecting it, but you'll very rarely be on the front rank, mowing down 1st-level orc warriors.
In the soldier gameplay style, your focus is on you and your fellow party members. You may not even have to tailor yourself very much to fit in this environment. You don't have to worry too much on methods of attack, or basic military tactics. That will all be figured out by the NPCs that are giving you orders (the DM).
It is important to note that the players almost need to be railroaded by definition of this archetype. The DM and players should discuss beforehand the implications of this playstyle. The DM must be adamant in asuring that the PCs understand that they do not have free will in this game, lest they risk becoming fugatives, or being executed for insubordination.
This is the level I expect casual, ordinary war campaigns to run at.

(2) The Lieutenant
At this level, you have control over your own platoon of soldiers, or share that control with the other PCs. This is the level of gameplay that is often reached when Leadership is taken, and the PCs actually use their followers as soldiers. That gives you a rough idea of the numbers. Anywhere from 10 to 500 NPCs with you, of course there could be more. What is important to distinguish here from The General is the boundaries of power. You do not decide when and where war happens (unless you are the leader of a small warband.) You only decide how your retinue fights to achieve the objectives handed down to you. You may be given orders to ambush a supply train, you can decide where to place your archers and what spells to use, but you can't decide not to carry out your mission without a very good excuse, or you'll risk court martial.
At this scale, it is extremely handy to organize your troops into units. Units provide you with organization and allow for greater ease when diversifying roles. You may decide to have a pike unit, and an archer unit behind it. For these instances, the DM should roll a mass initiative for each unit, using the lowest init bonus. Note that these units can have diverse NPCs within them, and it's reccomended. For example, most units could do with a commander to boost their potential (see Heroes of Battle for Commander Auras, useful and free bonuses to lower-ranking soldiers). A spell-blasing unit could have specialists of different energy types, and almost every group could do well with a buffer or two.
Your concern at this scale is not only of yourself. You will want to invest mental (and sometimes monetary) resources towards your subordinates. Consider your warband when purchasing magic items, selecting spells, and so forth. Similarily, you'll want to adjust some of your tactics to accomadate for the larger amount of foes you may face. Chain spell is one of many champions here. You'll also want to familiarize yourself with battle tactics. They can turn a lopsided battle on its heels, for the side that makes great use of tactics. A great commander is not great merely for his personal prowess in battle, but how he can lead his troops to victory.
As far as you yourself go, you still have a vital role. Your mooks can take care of the opposing mooks, but you've got battlefield commanders, giant artillery, dragons, and pesky spellcasters to deal with! Take out the big targets, and similarily allow your forces to take the numerous targets. If one of you deal with your immediate jobs, then you're free to help the other one. There's nothing like multiple concentrated volleys at a BBEG's face, not to mention whole units readying actions to turn the evil sorcerer into a pincushion if he trys to screw the party over!
This is the level I excpect most 'tactical' war campaigns to run at.

(3) The General
You are MacArthur, Napoleon, Ceasar, Hitler, William of Normandy, and Theoden-King rolled into one (minus the Nazi, I hope XD). Your words crush nations, your will strikes awe or fear into the hearts of men. You're in command of an army of thousands, and chances are you know how to use them to deadly effect. Infact, you have to know what you're doing, or thousands will die.
Your focus is almost entirely on the army at this point. You're probably at high level, so Leadership numbers are in the thousands if optimized, and if you're the hired general of a nation (or plane!) it may be more than that. This level of gameplay becomes less about you and more about the people around you. As with The Lieutenant, there may be something of appropriate high level on the main battlefield for you to smite, but that's really up to the DM and players. History and war buffs might lose focus of their own characters in support of their army, and their PC may focus more on diplomacy, information, and the occasional earth-shattering spell. Top it off with quests to forge alliances, or a daring raid into the very heart of the opposing elite general's stronghold for epic justice.
This is the level of play I'd expect at high level, and with complete war buffs (and not-so-sane but incredibly skilled DMs)
------------------------
Level of Magic

I had a huge fucking section all typed out, then the server decides to fuck up when I post it, so now it's gone and we'll get a half-assed version. >_<

Low/No Magic



Moderate Magic (Default?)



High Magic



------------------------

Always keep in mind your play level when reading the rest of the guide, and when making and playing your character. A general will pick Diplomacy over Jump, but a lowly private doesn't invest in Bluff or Knowledge (History). A strike team member may pack Enervation and Divine Power, where a high Lieutenant may pick Solid Fog and Divination.

Party Roles and War
[sexy image]

Now the general is the bulwark of the State; if the bulwark is complete at all points; the State will be strong; if the bulwark is defective, the State will be weak. –Sun Tzu, The Art of War

Everyone has a job in the war. Your abilities dictate your actions; not all will be sent to slay dragons, not all are capable of assassinating leaders, few may slay hundreds in the blink of an eye (despite popular belief). In knowing yourself, you must know what you are capable of, else you shall die an abrupt death. Here now shall I discuss roles in war.

-The Tank-
The tank is who I deem to be a melee warrior who lacks mobility (not the feat). The battlefield is vast, and if you do not have a mount, you shall be utterly ineffective when your foes are numerous. In a standard military campaign, you must commandeer a mount. Even if it shall surely die in a battle, the gold lost from another mount dying is insignificant to the lives that could be lost if there is nobody to defend the weaker members of the party. For that is your role, essentially. If you can deal massive damage to a massive foe, then go for it. But beware the consequences.

It is a virtue in this role that you have high AC, and are able to draw fire away from the weaker members of the party. If a cohort is a tank, consider again the Tower Shield, especially if the cohort larger than normal. Giving total cover to the casters whiere no cover is can mean the difference between a TPK and an easy victory.

-The Charger-
The Charger is who I deem to be a melee character that is mobile. Whether he actually uses the charge action frequently, uses spring attack-like strategy, or merely uses standard actions over full-round actions (like martial adepts) matters little. What matters is that your role is to out-maneuver your foes. Yes, even the lowly monk fits into this category; his movement speed is more valuable in the theatre of war. In a pitched situation where the party is being bombarded/sniped or there is a tough foe protected by the environment/mooks, it is your job to overcome those obstacles and lay down the hurt on the baddie.

Ensure to ask for buffs from the spellcasters, as your role carries the most risk. Collaborate with your controller ahead of time, to make sure that you can overcome his battlefield control, or that he place it in such a way that you are able to circumnavigate it.

-The Archer-
There is little effective difference between the Archer and the Blaster. You are one who deals damage at range. Yours is a fairly straightforward, but important role. Hit the toughest foe with everything you're got! What one must remember in this role is that if you are fighting a spellcaster, or you have special attacks at a range (for example, Ranged Disarm), do not under-use the Readied action! If the enemy spellcaster is competent, he wil seriously mess up the party. He will have a much more difficult time if you put an arrow through his hand while he's casting that spell. If you have area-of-effect ranged attacks, hold off on blasting the mooks unless your own defensive line is being seriously threatened by them.

-The Buffer-
Out of all the roles, yours probably changes the least. Get your buffs up, then switch to your secondary role. (All good buffers should be able to do more than just buff). Your immediate priority will probably be to increase the mobility or survivability of anyone who has to go toe-to-toe with the big enemies, then the general defense of the party. In spell selection, go over mass buffs, or easily chained buffs. Certain spells could turn your common soldiers into formidable warriors. Even a few chained greater magic weapons or heroisms could allow your mooks to trample the opposition, and theaten the higher level foes.

-The Debuffer/Blaster-
Hit the high level foes where it hurts. Period. If you use stuff like Cloudkill or chained Enervation/Ray of Enfeeblement than go for it, but your number 1 priority is weaking the bosses.

-The Controller-
You are god. The CO board has pretty much established this. Your spells make or break the battle. The thing is, when using BFC in war, things are a little different. If you're good at laying it down like a champ, chances are that you'll adapt easy enough, But, for the war-faring controller, certain spells become more or less viable. For example, the area-effect version of Grease becomes worse, simply because the battlefield is so much larger than the dungeon; it's easy to avoid. Take that in mind when adapting your strategies; choke points are far less numerous. Spells with a wide area-of-effect can become more devastating. Widen spell becomes a sexy choice, especially with metamagic reducers. Also, Wall spells can be champions if used correctly. That wall of soldiers that was about to charge you? Now they have to go around a wall of stone. Your tanks and melee mooks will love you if you can divide the enemy with these spells.

Tactical Spells

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Engage people with what they expect; it is what they are able to discern and confirms their projections. It settles them into predictable patterns of response, occupying their minds while you wait for the extraordinary moment — that which they cannot anticipate. -Sun Tzu, The Art of War

On Spells:
There are far more competent guides than mine on the use of battlfield control spells, so I will not cover the basic application of spells in the prototypical small skirmish environment. Instead, I will cover the alteration of usefulness of spells in the area of mass combat, and on the battlefield itself.

Mass Combat:

Battlefield:

Party Tactics

Minion Tactics

On Information

On Leadership

[sexy image]

Treat your men as you would your own beloved sons. And they will follow you into the deepest valley. -Sun Tzu, The Art of War

Let's face it. Leadership is the easiest and most accesible way to gain loyal soldiers and other followers. This post shall be devoted to the leadership feat, its variants, and special info pertinent to leadership.

Linking to some Handbooks that will help in this regard:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9157.0 - Thrallherd Handbook
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8817.0 - Handbook for Leadership and Army-Making

Leadership Feats:
There are many more feats that benefit leadership than the namesake feat. Here I'll list all of them that I know, plus sources or links.

Leadership
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#leadership
Bread and Butter to become a leader. This is obvious.

Epic Leadership
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicLeadership
Required for epic level play if you want to have an epic amount of followers. Compulsory for level 21+. Or cheezy dragonwrought kobolds with questionable rules interpretations.

Legendary Commander
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#legendaryCommander
Speaking of... this is just sexy. If you have epic leadership, do it.

Extra Followers (HoB)
Double followers, and +1 to leadership score? Yes please!

Improved Cohort (HoB)
Cohort's maximum level is raised to CL-1, and +1 to leadership score. Very decent, gets even better if you have multiple cohorts.

Inspirational Leadership (HoB)
Followers start battle heartened if they weren't scared beforehand, +5 to rally checks with your followers, and +1 leadership. Eh, it['s not that good if you're just leading your warband, as there won't be many circumstances where rallying will play a role. Not worth the feat slot, imo.

Practiced Cohort (HoB)
Your cohort doesn't count against teamwork benefit limits for member size, and is auto-trained to be a member; +1 leadership. Stay away from this unless you have a very large party already, and are relying on those teamwork benefits.

Assemble the Horde (DR346)
Double 1st level followers, and +1 to leadership score? Almost as awesome as Extra Followers. Do both.

Class Champion (DR346)
Get two more followers of the highest level of follower you can attain, but they must be the same class as you. I'm not sure if they have to be single-classed or not. Anyways, this feat does have potential, but it's up to you. Situationally good.

Close Cohort (DR346)
Inferior version of Improved Cohort that doesn't stack. Keep away from this.

Eye for Talent (DR346)
You can replace cohorts in weeks instead of months, +1 leadership score. I'd avoid this. Why? I'd take a more useful feat that will help my your followers not die in the first place.

Fanatical Devotion (DR346)
This, however, can be entertaining when combined with the former. You no longer take a penalty to your leadership score if your followers die. Assemble your horde, send them off, and if they die, just recruit new ones, all while sipping wine at home? XD

Dragon Cohort (Dcn)
Get a dragon cohort off the list in Draconomicon, it is treated as three levels lower for attaining it. Cool stuff, use whenever you deem a dragon would be an effective ally.

Dragon Steed (Dcn)
Get a dragonnel cohort. There are more powerful options than this.

Undead Leadership (LM)
+2 to leadership to attract undead followers/cohorts, -4 for living ones. Not too shabby for the necromancer character, or if you're undead yourself. You could always just grab what followers you wanted living, and ake them Necropolotians.

Natural Leader(DR346), Improved Leadership(DR317), Noble Born(DR333)
All these give +2 to your leadership score; Noble Born has some minor differences. I don't value these very high, as followers are capped until epic leadership, but at least Noble Born can be taken at level 1, when other leadership feats cant be (almost all require leadership as a prerequisite).


Apparently, Epic Level Handbook says that if your followers aren't commoners, warriors, or experts, that they get a level penalty. This sucks. Negotiate out of it.

On Buildings

On Ambushes

On Alliances

'General' Advice

Behind the DM Screen

Other Tips and Tricks

Builds

Handy Links and Credits

From WotC:

Heroes of Battle: The most comprehensive book they've written on war, and very useful for DMing a war game. It isn't devoid of goodies for players, however. The most used thing from this book is probably the War Weaver prestige class, but there's a ton of useful stuff in here.

Arms and Equipment Guide: 3.0 book, has some handy things including vehicles.

Stronghold Builder's Guidebook: 3.0, use for buildings and related stuff.

Stormwrack: For those who wish to implement naval elements to the war, including ship battles, etc.

Magic Item Compendium: Lot's of goodies here.

Spell Compendium: Likewise, lots of goodies

Races of Stone: There seems to be a lot of useful stuff here for terraforming in here, including the invaluable Shadowcraft Mage

Other:

The Art of War by Sun Tzu: This is required reading in war, buisiness, and philosophy. It was one of the things that got me interested in making the guide. Seriously, go read it now. It is online, if you don't want to shell out the cash for paper.


Feel free to start posting now. I can't possibly write enough of this myself, so please throw your ideas my way.

Offline Toptomcat

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Re: Hatchet Job Port Thread
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2013, 12:25:59 AM »
The Dungeon Master's Handbook

by Caedrus

The Dungeon Master's Handbook

Greetings.

One thing which struck me as I was considering my new campaign is that I haven't ever really structured a campaign to deal with Optimisers. Hmm, 'deal with' sounds a bit confrontational. This isn't the case.

My players are getting, well, better and better at designing characters to fight out of their weight division, so to speak, with some of them getting quite spectacularly strong builds.

The problem, of course, is that to make things challenging requires either (1) hitting them with the nerf bat; (2) stripping them of equipment; (3) stripping them of levels; or (4) creating an escalating arms-race of optimisation.

Or not allowing the problems in the first place.

Things came to a head last session, when my normally tactically strong players made a big tactical mistake (placing six characters in a 10' x 15' area, right next to the BBEG who had a Maximised Greater Fireburst. 150 points of damage later to the PCs (averaging 15th level), and, well, most of them had fairly ordinary Reflex Saves.

A TPK ensued.

So, I thought I would create this Mini-Handbook for the DMs in this community, specifically as it pertains to Optimisers among their group.

I would like to welcome any DMs to put forward their thoughts on:

Banning: Is it ever a good idea? If so, what do you declare off limits?
House Rules: What balances gameplay without players getting upset?
Optional Rules: Should flaws be allowed?
Deoptimisation: What advice would you give for bringing a campaign into line, when it has come a bit out of control without making players feel nerfed?
General DM Advice: Anything and everything else.
Anecdotes: A sort of What's a DM to do for the Optimising crowd. Or, indeed, just your war stories.

I will, of course, be offering my own thoughts, so the following areas will be filled over time.

So, here's a spot for you DMs out there. Consider this a community handbook of how to keep balance in your campaign, and avoiding hidden pitfalls.

Tell me your tales of sorrow - or victory. What has the field of conflict taught you?

C.

The Optimisation Ethos.

One thing that I don't want to make this thread about is a discussion about roleplaying vs. rollplaying vs. powergaming vs. munchkinism. To be honest, the idea has been thrashed out so many times, and what it ends up being is a conflict of semantics.

I would simply say that there is a spectrum, with Pun-Pun at one end, and Min-Min at the other (Min-Min being a character that has a backstory of great value, intricacy and depth, but a character whose value in terms of usefulness is tragically poor); what is acceptable for each campaign rests somewhere in between these two extremes.

Powerful characters and strong story are not mutually exclusive.

I think Tempest Swordwind deserves quite some credit for the preceding statement. Sometimes, wisdom is stating the obvious.

What I would like this thread to be about is what is a common ideal about power / gameplay balance.

Oh, and so there's no ambiguity later: I am not anti-optimisation; I support and admire creative character design.

This is more about helping a DM to maintain balance, or correct overbalance, in a campaign that has suffered from Optimisation outside of what the group / Dm decides is balanced. I firmly believe that a small amount of prevention is worth a vast amount of cure.

What are your thoughts?

Banning

I am a big fan of banning things. I hope, and I believe, that I ban things for the right reason. Broadly, my reasons are one, or both, of the following:

1. The rules set (item, feat, prestige class, etc) has the potential for rules abuse; or (a much better reason)
2. The rules set does not fit within the verisimilitude of the campaign.

Here's what I ban (or don't make available for rules balance issues), and why (expect this list to expand as I think of them):

1. Nightsticks. Their stacking rules are unclear, and open to abuse.
2. Thought Bottles. They are vastly open to abuse.

Here's what I am considering banning (again, expect expansion):

Any template or character adjustment that has a Level Adjustment greater than 2. Is this too harsh?

But, I think that the best (hell, the only) time to ban things is at the creation of the campaign. Players will accept change to their character if it is part of the design process. To suddenly turn around and tell them that they can't take a Prestige Class they have been aiming for is more than harsh, I think.

What are your thoughts?

House Rules

One of my big rules is:

The Anti-Dipping Strategy.  You may not have more Prestige Classes than base classes, unless you take that Prestige Class to the maximum level. I have been really happy with this House Rule.

What are your suggestions?

Optional Rules

I allow flaws, traits & skill tricks. Of them, flaws have the most potential for abuse, but I think that a DM should always make a player, for want of a gentlre word, regret a flaw almost as much as they relish a feat.

I only allow spells from the Player's Handbook or the Spell Compendium. Every otehr spell has to be researched to be gained from another D&D3.5 source, such as Complete Arcane.

What is acceptable in your camaign? What alternate rules have messed with your world?

General DM Advice

As things come to mind, expect a few expansions here. In the interim, if you could only give one piece of advice for dealing with Optimising players, what would it be?

Here are mine:

1. Avoid Optimisation problems by not allowing them to eventuate, or by placing restraint, gently, early. This is pretty much the Golden Rule of the Optimised Dungeon Master.
2. Nothing sucks more than permanent level loss.
3. Having your weapons sundered reeks of the nerf bat.
4. You should always try to avoid the Rogue-with-Sleight-of-Hand-Plus-56 that wanders of with your prize toy. Don't give the toy out in the first place.
5. Always build in the threat of a controlling factor in any serious magic you give out.

Anecdotes

Allowing a player to create a character with few restrictions, at a level of greater than 1st, is fraught with problems. I have had a few experiences countering strong character builds:

Giving a character a Helm of Brilliance can be a very fine prize, but the player should be aware that the Helm is the functional equivalent of wearing a hat made of grenades. Hit that character with a Coercive Spell (or any Wisdom draining effect), and then 31 points of magical fire means you get one Will Save to avoid activating the helm, inflicting (as was the case for my player and friend) up to 350d6 fire damage. Crispy.

What have your experiences taught you?

Re Playing

Bear with me, here. I realise what forum I'm on. I thought I would add that one thing which I ask of my players is, at the start of the campaign, ten words to describe their character.

One simple act like this can have amazing effect in making a player think character rather than firepower.

What have your experiences been?

Offline Toptomcat

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Re: Hatchet Job Port Thread
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2013, 12:28:16 AM »
Ability Damage Resource by Empirate

yes it is

Ability Damage Resource


Where we stand with this guide

Books included:
Player's Handbook (PHB),
Dungeon Master's Guide (DMG),
Monster Manual I (MM),

Book of Vile Darkness (BoVD),
Complete Adventurer (CAdv),
Complete Arcane (CArc),
Complete Champion (CC),
Complete Divine (CDiv),
Complete Mage (CM),
Complete Scoundrel (CS),
Complete Warrior (CWar),
Frostburn (Frost),
Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (FRCS),
Player's Handbook II (PHB2),
Races of Faerûn (RoF),
Spell Compendium (SpC),
Tome of Battle (ToB),
Unapproachable East (UE),
Underdark (UD)

Reformatted the Spells section to sort by caster class.


Many thanks to Agita, Garryl, Ivory Knight, Negative Zero, Pîke, and Zemyla for their helpful criticism and kind contribution!

Let me also link you to Akalsaris' excellent Poison handbook: Arsenic and Old Lace (and we're all out of lace).


General Remarks

Let’s assume (not a fantastic notion!) you want to bring your opponent down, if only to get your grubby mitts on the meagre treasure and piddly XP you’ll get for the job. How best to go about it? There’s more than one way to skin a cat, but which is best?

This is Character Optimization. Meaning, this is as much about killing things and taking their stuff as anything else. What we do is come up with solutions to your everyday monster-killing needs on a regular basis. And to-day, dear customers, we offer a new perspective on said killing of creatures. Basically, all killing in D&D depends on taking one of the enemies’ most basic resources and reducing it to zero. If your goal is only winning, not killing, reducing said resource to near zero might suffice, depending on circumstances.

The most commonly known resource for this purpose, and the one reduced by the most diverse means, is Hit Points. Since we can safely assume that all of you have mastered a monster by inflicting enough HP damage to make it drop, we will not explore this well-known method any further. Other parties have delved into reducing mobility or capability of useful action, generally known as battlefield control, for example
here.
Today, we will spend some time on another, not unknown but also not well understood or even systematically researched area of creature’s resources:

Ability Scores.

As the name tells us, these scores stand for a creature’s A-bilities. Our goal would thus be properly described as

De-bilitating


Let us start by reminding all of us what ability scores do, in order to tell which are the interesting ones for the purposes of reducing them to or near zero:

·   Strength: This is the most important stat for anything relying on brute force. Reduce Str, and you reduce the chances of successful melee attacks as well as the damage all attacks deal. Note that some damage enhancers such as Power Attack rely on good attack bonuses, so reducing Str may even have a disproportionately powerful effect on overall damage done by any single opponent. But wait, there’s more! Str also affects carrying capacity. Reducing it enough will render your opponent unable to fight in his armor. Other uses, such as resistance to grapple, trip, bull rush or overrun attempts, are not so important, but may still come in handy. Skills working off Str are generally not important in a fight, and spellcasters won’t be much affected, but still: Str is almost always a very interesting stat to reduce in combat situations.

·   Dexterity: This stat affects ranged attacks and may be used for melee attacks if the opponent uses Weapon Finesse (many animals do). Reducing Dex further lowers AC, which allows your whole party to hit that much more often, and Reflex saves, which will probably not be that important in most fights. Many skills are keyed off Dex, but these will be your least worry if battle is already joined. Note that, counterintuitively, an opponent reduced to Dex 1 can still move at full speed. Just OK stat to attack.

·   Constitution: This stat doesn’t affect much, but what it affects is incredibly important. Reducing Con reduces Fort saves, which will be very useful if your method of lowering stats is poison or otherwise allows a Fort save to negate or mitigate. This is very, very common, so don’t underestimate the escalation effect of reducing Con. More importantly, each point of Con damage inflicts HP damage equal to ½ the opponent’s HD! Since it scales so well with level, reducing Con never gets old. This is also the only stat whose debilitating to zero will kill the opponent outright.

·   Intelligence: Reducing Int won’t get you very far, except from a roleplaying standpoint. No important skills or combat rolls are affected by Int. There’s two exceptions to this rule which just manage to keep this black. One, many creatures (most importantly Animals and Magical Beasts) have very low Int, so it’s easy to one-shot them with a well-placed Ray of Stupidity. Two, many arcane spellcasters (who may be among your most dangerous opponents) rely on Int to cast their most powerful spells. However, it’s hard to shave off more than a few points of this stat in any way except for Feeblemind – which doesn’t reduce it to zero, but does the job vs. arcane casters.

·   Wisdom: Much like Int, Wis doesn’t affect many combat rolls, with the notable exception of Will saves. If your preferred method of debilitation can be hampered by foes consistently making their Will saves, you should take this into account. Otherwise, attacking Wis only hurts divine casters (who can usually screw you in other ways than with spells). Most creatures have at least average Wis scores, making it hard to find an enemy to one-shot easily. Finally, it’s quite hard to find reliable ways of attacking Wis at all, making this a red.

·   Charisma: Welcome to the bottom rung. Charisma affects almost nothing important. While I can think of a few things (Sorcerers’ and Bards’ spellcasting, the save DCs of some special abilities, incorporeal foes’ AC and so on), most of these are highly circumstantial. What’s worse is that many enemies will have at least average Cha scores, and there are very few ways to lower this stat. Except for Feeblemind, there’s not much you can do. This is blood red.



General methods of debilitating


There are three methods of debilitating available:


Ability Damage, Ability Drain, and Ability penalties


Ability damage and drain is basically the same thing, except drain is permanent, while ability damage can be healed naturally. Both can be healed by spells, though ability drain is generally much harder to remove. Ability damage and drain can reduce an ability score to 0, and usually, this means the target is either dead (if Con is 0) or helpless (if anything else is 0) now. For PCs, these amount to the same thing except in rare situations when you want to capture, not kill.


Ability damage and drain stack, even if they’re from the same source. For example, the initial and secondary effects of one application of poison stack, as do two Shivering Touch spells.


Usually, draining abilities is considered more powerful by the designers of D&D. Thus, they made much fewer ways of doing so available. These ways are also easier to resist much of the time, or deal less ability reduction in amount, but are – idiotically – still considered more dangerous by the rules of the game. For example, what is the better debilitator: a Wraith (CR 5) or a Shadow (CR 3)? Usually the Shadow, even though it only deals Str damage, while the Wraith deals Con drain. But the latter allows a Fort save, while the former is automatic. This makes the Shadow more dangerous much of the time, or at least easily on par with the Wraith, even though the Wraith has more HD.

So the designers obviously thought draining was more dangerous than damaging ability scores. And in the case of PCs, this is true. Nobody likes their scores permanently reduced. However, when we use debilitating tactics ourselves, we only care about that one, first and final, encounter we have with Mr. Monster, so nothing could be further from our minds than draining its ability scores. For all practical purposes, ignore the damage/drain difference. Focus on save DCs, delivery methods, and overall debilitating effect instead. Damaging Str by 1d8 points is much better than draining it by 1d4 points. There are only very few, roleplaying-related, exceptions to this rule.


Ability penalties complicate the picture. These are sometimes much worse than damage or drain, in that they can’t reduce a score to below 1 in specific cases. Ray of Enfeeblement, for example, explicitly states that it can't reduce Str below 1. For this reason, different methods of debilitation sometimes don’t combine with each other too well. Look out for these mitigating clauses in spell and ability descriptions. Use abilities hampered by this and similar limiting clauses only to debuff, don't attempt a takeout!

Usually, ability penalties will be able to reduce an ability score to 0, which makes them just as awesome as ability damage or drain, although penalties often go away much more quickly (when the effect that caused them expires).

Ability penalties don’t stack if they’re the same type of penalty, or come from the same source. Casting two Rays of Clumsiness at the same target doesn’t make it any clumsier than one.


There is another big thing to be said for ability penalties: Almost nothing is immune to them! Even Undead and Constructs suffer from a Ray of Enfeeblement or Touch of Idiocy, although they’re fully immune to powerful spells like Flensing or Symbol of Weakness. This bears remembering well.

When and what to debilitate


  Thing of note n° 1:
if you want to go the debilitator way, it’s my way or the highway. Either your method of debilitation deals great amounts of penalties/damage/drain quickly, or you might as well be wasting your actions on using a Reserve Feat.

Small amounts of debilitation get us nowhere: it’s either a light debuff, which you could usually get more efficiently by debuffing derived stats (attack bonus instead of Str, or AC instead of Dex, for example). Or it’s light HP damage (if you only deal 2 Con damage per round with your spells, you might as well cast Magic Missile). Or you do nothing at all (dealing 1d4 Int damage to a Fighter).

What is a “great amount” of debilitation, you ask? Well, a good rule of thumb might be shaving off a third of an important stat, or half of a less important one. However, this also depends on item n° 2.


  Thing of note n° 2:
Decide beforehand whether you’re aiming at a takeout (reduce an ability resource to zero) or a debuff (thus making reducing the target’s HP resource easier for your whole team). Most of the time, a takeout through pure ability damage will not be feasible. Debuffs are much easier, but some monsters are immune even to the debuffing effects of debilitation, and I don't mean only Undead etc. When you're fighting an Illithid or a Succubus, Ray of Enfeeblement won't help you any. Make sure you debilitate a worthwhile stat even when only debuffing, maybe especially when debuffing.

What is a worthwile stat? Well, it should be easy to see that for a takeout, you just have to attack the lowest ability score - if you can with your method(s) of debilitation, that is. For a debuff, you should usually attack a physical ability score, most often Str or Dex. I think Str is almost always the better one to attack for a debuff, but YMMV. This also depends on the foes you're facing, as I said before.

Note that takeouts usually require ability damage or drain. Ability penalties won't be much use here, although they can be in some circumstances. A heavily armored warrior is effectively taken out if you apply enough of a penalty to his Str to reduce it below what he can carry. Likewise, a successful Feeblemind on a Sorcerer will end him as a threat.


  Thing of note n° 3:
Know your enemy. This probably holds true for any kind of strategy you want to use, but it is especially true for debilitating strategies. If you don't know what the important ability scores of your enemy are, you can forget about debuffing effectively. If you don't know what his low ability scores are, you can mostly forget about a takeout. Most importantly, if the target is simply immune to your methods of debilitation, and you don't know about it, you're needlessly wasting your resources.
This is where divination abilities and knowledge skills can come in very handy.

Often, you'll know beforehand what you'll be facing, at least roughly. The Giant's Run mountain range will likely be a nice place to abuse that Shivering Touch (hopefully, you have Spectral Hand or Reach Spell...), since Giants have low Dex, generally speaking. Likewise, the Beastwood sounds like a good place to prepare Ray of Stupidity for - Animals galore. And if you're planning to fight the Death Knights of Full Plate Castle, some Split Empowered Rays of Enfeeblement might come in handy.

If you don't know what will be coming up, just prepare for whatever seems most likely, or prepare something that works a lot of the time, if not always. In this case, you can probably use debilitation for debuffing only. Takeouts often require foreknowledge. But hey, downtime's for research, right?


  Thing of note n° 4:
Know your strengths. Many debilitators will have only one or two more-or-less reliable methods of debilitation. This is because we can't (or don't want to) all be spellcasters. Sure, if you're a Cleric or a Wizard, you can just prepare whatever seems likely. You can attack any stat you want, and deal out penalties, damage, or drain, whatever you feel like. But even a Sorcerer focused on debilitation will probably be relying on two or three spells at most, maybe adding in Fell Weaken or some such on other spells he can cast. Other classes don't even have the luxury of choosing which stat to go for. A Crippling Strike Rogue will attack Str, and that's it most of the time. A Shadowdancer can likewise only attack Str (via Shadow Companion). A Swordsage can mostly choose between Str and Con (though there's one sucky high-level maneuver that attacks Dex).

This is where equipment becomes important. Poisons and spell storing items open the debilitator's route to all classes. Wounding weapons debilitate Con for everybody. Also, Animal Companions, Familiars, Mounts, and monstrous Cohorts provide all kinds of debilitation options.

Nevertheless, any given PC will probably not have the luxury of choice. So in some fights your debilitation counts for nothing, while in others it might win you the day. Again, foreknowledge will help you out lots, if only to warn you whether you'll be extra-efficient or dead weight. From this follows the next one:


  Thing of note n° 5:
Debilitation isn't everything. Even as a full caster totally focused on debilitation, don't expect to win every fight with it. Non-casters should totally prepare to have at least one other schtick to fall back on. Actually, it's quite likely that debilitation will only complement your other, main abilities. It's nice for a Rogue to have the option of dealing Con or Cha damage instead of more HP damage with his sneak attacks. But it's not vital. Similarly, I consider Wounding to be one of the better weapon enchantments - but quite a few things are immune to it, and that Con damage won't kill the enemy on its own. Ray of Enfeeblement might be a wonderful 1st level spell, and really powerful when metamagicked up - but whether a split, empowered RoE is better than Wall of Force or Dominate Person or Telekinesis really depends on the circumstances.

How to debilitate: Conditions



Entangled: -4 penalty Dex, plus other nice effects. We don’t go into this much in this guide, as pure Dex penalties are usually not worth our time as debilitators. Note that the entangled condition is a nice one, just not that interesting for the purpose of this resource.


Exhausted: -6 penalty Str, -6 penalty Dex, plus limitations on movement. The huge penalty values and the fact that Str is among the affected stats make this very interesting to debilitators – especially since it will stack with other penalties (like from a Ray of Enfeeblement). The Escalating Enfeeblement spell specifically mentions the combination, growing more powerful vs. fatigued or exhausted targets. Sweet!


Fatigued: -2 penalty Str, -2 penalty Dex., two different stats, Str among them, sounds good so far. But the penalties inflicted are very, very mild, is this really worth our time? It is: the Fatigued condition stacks with itself to become Exhausted, making it interesting again. Also, there are many, many effects which cause the Fatigued condition. It will come up.


Paralyzed: effective Str and Dex 0. This is what we want to make happening. Effects that directly cause paralyzation are not further explored in this guide, as they can more accurately be categorized as save or die.


That’s it! No other conditions influence ability scores at all.


How to debilitate: Environmental Dangers

(You can pretty much ignore this part. It’s there for the sake of completeness)

Acid Fumes: 1 dam Con (Fort DC 13), 1d4 dam Con (Fort DC 13) after 1 min
Severe/Extreme Cold: Fatigued if nonlethal damage is taken (Fort DC 15+1 per previous check, 1/hour or 1/min, respectively)
Severe/Extreme Heat: Fatigued if nonlethal damage is taken (Fort DC 15+1 per previous check, 1/hour or 1/5min, respectively)
Lack of Food or Water: Fatigued if nonlethal damage is taken (Con DC 10+1 per previous check, 1/hour [thirst]; Con DC 10+1 per previous check, 1/day [hunger])



How to debilitate: Class Abilities

I list classes with debilitating powers in alphabetic order. This is probably incomplete and doesn’t include spellcasting, only straightforward debilitation and SLAs. The number in brackets right after the class feature’s name is the class (!) level you gain it.

Acolyte of the Skin (CArc):
Poison (1): SLA, 1 or 2/day.

Arachnomancer (UD):
Spider Magic (1): You add some spider-themed spells to your spell list. Most of these are bad, though several can summon poisonous creatures (read: spiders).
Spiderform (2): You can turn into a monstrous spider. Most of the time, this is not a good idea for loss of spellcasting. The gargantuan one at 8th level is pretty hilarious, though, and this does open up movement and fighting options in a pinch.
Poison Touch (3): You inject poison with a touch attack. Damage is varying amounts of Str damage, and the ability can be used at will. You're an arcane caster though, so you're not gonna be in melee anytime soon.
Command Spiders (4): As rebuke/command undead, but spiders. Useless, you can't even use the rebuke attempts on other stuff.
Spider Blast (10): Your capstone is not that impressive, as it still relies on spider poison. At this point in the game, almost everything will either be immune or laugh in your face at the lousy debilitation you deal out with your valuable action.

Archmage (DMG]:
High Arcana (1): The Arcane Reach and Mastery of Shaping high arcana are of interest to the spellcasting-focused debilitator.

Blighter (CDiv):
Contagious Touch (5): SLA, 1/3 lvls/day

Cancer Mage (BoVD):
Contagion (2): SLA, 1/lvl/day.
Poison (3): SLA, 1/lvl/day.
Children of the Night (4): Summon some small spiders or dire rats. Not worth it.
Infected Wound (6): One melee attack/lvl/day basically gains the Wounding ability. Also does an additional 1d6 Con damage an hour later, which we don't much care about. Nice, but un-special.
Insect Plague (7): SLA, 1/day.
Disease Form (10): You become the disease! Not that great for debilitation, though.

Cloaked Dancer (CS):
Wearying Dance (3): Fatigue all within 30’ (Will negates), but only as long as you keep dancing. Whoa.

Combat Trapsmith (CS):
Combat Trapping (Enfeebler) (1): Fatigues target (Fort negates).
Combat Trapping (Sleeper) (4): Target is put to sleep, is fatigued on a successful (!) Fort save.

Diabolist (BoVD):
Imp Familiar (2): Imps are poisonous. Familiars deliver touch attacks. Familiars are just all around good in general.

Disciple of Baalzebul/Disciple of Mammon (BoVD):
Summon Osyluth (4/5): Powerful and moreover poisonous devils. Nuff said.

Dread Necromancer (HoH):
Scabrous Touch (6): Add a Contagion effect to your Charnel Touch ability, usable 1-3/day. Mostly useless.
Summon Familiar (7): Familiars are good, e.g. familiars deliver touch spells. Imps, Vargouilles, and Quasits are naturally poisonous. Opens the road to Improved Familiar, if you still want an upgrade over these.

Drow Judicator (UD):
War Strike (1): Once per day, deal an additional 2d6 Con damage with a melee attack (Fort half). Not overwhelming, but can be nice. You have to be a Drow, though.
Command Spiders (1): As rebuke/command undead, but spiders. Useless, you can't even use the rebuke attempts on other stuff.
Spider Servant (5): You gain a spider servant from a small list, which works much like an animal companion. Not bad! Regular ACs are often better, though.
Spider's Grace (8): Once per day, you gain some spiderlike characteristics. Among these is a poisonous (1d6 Str/1d6 Str, DC 18+Con mod) bite attack. Extra attacks are always good, debilitating ones doubly so.

Druid:
Animal Companion (1): Pick a poisonous or otherwise ability-debilitating AC.
Wild Shape (5): Turn into a poisonous animal or anything else with an (Ex) special attack that causes ability damage, drain or penalties.

Duskblade (PHB2):
Arcane Channeling (3): Your signature ability allows you to channel debilitating spells through your melee attacks. You have few options, but Touch of Idiocy is a good spell to channel, and there are ways to expand your spell list.

Enlightened Fist (CArc):
Arcane Fist (3): Deliver touch spell on each iterative attack in a full attack. Not bad with debilitating spells (Shivering Touch, anyone?).
Hold Ray (7): Now you can transform ray spells into touch spells. Very handy for debilitating in melee.

Hierophant (FRCS):
Special Ability (1): Interesting special abilities include Divine Reach and Power of Nature.

Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil (CArc):
Green Veil (4): This is a poison effect much like the green part of a Prismatic Sphere. 1d6 Con damage on a successful (!) save.

Justiciar (CWar):
Crippling Strike (2): Whenever you deal nonlethal damage (which will be most of the time, this being your forte), you also deal 1 point of Str damage. OK ability.

Lifedrinker (BoVD):
Lifewell (1): You already are a vampire if you took this PrC. Now you can do something with all that Con you drained!

Lurk:
Lurk Augment: Mental Assault (5): This deals 2 points of Int or Wis damage plus an additional point per 2 power point you spend. Sounds good to me, but I'm hazy on the details. Provided by Zemyla.

Master of Many Forms (CAdv):
Improved Wild Shape (1): This excellent ability only gets better with MoMF! Many poisonous and some otherwise debilitating forms available!

Master of Shrouds (CDiv Web Enhancement):
Summon Undead (1): You can summon Allips or Shadows, later Wraiths and even Greater Shadows, 1/2 lvls/day. These guys are serious debilitators, if not an overall good class from a CO standpoint!

Nar Demonbinder (UE):
Fiendish Familiar (1): You get an imp or a quasit as a familiar, both of which are poisonous and get the usual familiar goodies. It seems you even keep your regular familiar if you have one (or take the Obtain Familiar feat - Nar Demonbinders are arcane casters).
[rest of class abilities]: These are all geared towards getting the most out of Planar Binding spells. Guess what planar bound creatures are often good at doing?

Nightcloak (CDiv Web Enhancement):
Minions of Night (8): Summon a bunch of Shadows 1/week that only stay for a few rounds. Too little, too late.

Paladin:
Special Mount (5): Pick a poisonous or otherwise debilitating mount.

Primeval (Frost):
Primeval Form (1): Your signature ability. Pick something debilitating...

Ranger:
Animal Companion (4): Pick a poisonous or otherwise debilitating AC. The Ranger’s AC is much worse than the Druid’s without the Natural Bond feat, black for this reason only.

Raumathari Battlemage (UE):
Channel Spell (1): Like a Duskblade, you can channel spells through melee attacks. You're a full caster, why's this not blue? Well, you're a full caster, whatever are you doing in melee?

Ravager (CWar):
Cruelest Cut (3): 1/3 lvls/day, deal 1d4 Con damage on a single attack in addition to regular damage. Good, but not overwhelming.

Rogue:
Crippling Strike (special ability): 2 points of Str damage with every Sneak Attack is nothing to scoff at. Very nice with TWF, Improved TWF, Haste, and a weapon with the Speed enchantment. Also works on ranged attacks.

Runecaster (FRCS):
Improved Runecasting (3, 8): This takes your Inscribe Rune feat and turns it up to eleven. At third level, your rune can have several charges (for multi-debilitation) or work on anybody reading them or passing by them. At 8th level, you can give your rune charges/day or even make it permanent! Excellent, excellent ability for enspelling weapons.
Maximize Rune (6): With a simple increase in the Craft check DC you can make maximized versions of your runes for no additional cost.

Shadowdancer:
Summon Shadow (3): Companion creatures are always nice, and this one is incorporeal and deals Str damage. It also can't be turned, rebuked etc., and increases in HD as you level. All in all, quite nice, that, however it comes kinda late (10th character level at the earliest), and Shadows are not exactly the most powerful at that level of play anymore. Still, if you can choose feats, skills etc., this can be nice.

Sorcerer:
Familiar (1): The snake is naturally poisonous, though not very. Improved Familiar opens up more options. From 3rd level on, Familiars can also deliver touch attacks (Shivering Touch, Touch of Idiocy...).

Soulknife:
Knife to the Soul (13): This lets you give up your psychic strike damage and deal 1 point of Int, Wis, or Cha damage for every point of psychic strike damage you give up. Sounds good to me, although I'm hazy on details. Provided by Zemyla.

Talontar Blightlord (UE):
Blightbringer Prestige Domain (1): More domains are always good. This one even brings with it rebuking ability vs. blightspawned creatures, which have a debilitating (but slow) disease effect. Contagion is one of your domain spells. Not great for debilitators, but excellent for Talontar Druids, who can now pull of DMM cheese. Red for our purposes only.
Illmaster (2): Your animal companion gains the Blightspawned template, which makes it much tougher and gives it a slow-working disease ability. Red for our purposes only.
Blight Touch: You can infect things with a slow-working disease, using a touch attack. Underwhelming.
Corrupting Blows (8): Any glaive (and nothing else) you're wielding gains the wounding ability. Nice enough.

Thayan Slaver (UE):
Break Will (2): Anytime you win an Intimidate check by 10 or more, you deal a point of Wis damage to your target. There's no limit to the number of times you can use this ability! This seems to be intended for "social" situation (you bullying your slaves), but can be used in a fear-stacking build as well. Totally unique ability, seems to have potential.
Crippling Strike (5): This works like the Rogue ability of the same name, except it only does 1 point of Str damage. Should stack with the Rogue special ability, though.

Thrall of Demogorgon (BoVD):
Rotting Touch (6): Deal 1d6 Con damage with a touch 3/day, no save.

Thrall of Juiblex (BoVD):
Summon Ooze (3): 1/day summon a patch of Green Slime.
Contagion (4): SLA, 1/day.

Vermin Keeper (UD):
Vermin Form (1): You gain the option to assume vermin forms with your wildshape ability. Most of the time, these forms will be inferior, but who can argue the utility of more options? Most of the forms you can assume will be poisonous, allowing debilitation (and, of course, Venomfire).
Vermin Companion (3): You gain the option to replace your animal companion with a vermin. This is not so great, usually you should stick with your Fleshraker.

Vermin Lord (BoVD):
Poison (8): Very weak poison delivered by your bite attack (1 Str/1 Str).

Wizard:
Familiar (1): The snake is naturally poisonous, though not very. Improved Familiar opens up more options. From 3rd level on, Familiars can also deliver touch attacks (Shivering Touch, Touch of Idiocy...). Excellent for everybody, and so it is for debilitators.


How to debilitate:Spells I


I'll order this huge section by casting classes and spell levels.

Assassin

You have a few options available to you. Better than nothing, I guess.

·   Ice Knife (CArc, Asn 2, Wu Jen 2, Warmage 2): Does a little damage and 2 points of Dex damage on a ranged touch (Fort negates). Even on a miss some minor damage in an area, but no Dex damage. Not worth it most of the time.
·   Increase Virulence (PHB2, Ass 2, Brd 2, Blk 2, Sor/Wiz 2): Make a poison more potent, increasing its save DC by +2. Works on manufactured poisons as well as venomous creatures. OK one.
·   Fangs of the Vampire King (SpC, Ass 3, Blk 3): You gain a bite attack that deals an additional point of Con damage on top of HP damage. Semi-nice for the extra attack.
·   Rusted Blade (CM, Ass 3, Drd 3, Sor/Wiz 4, Wu Jen 4): Enchant a blade so it infects targets hit with Filth Fever (Fort negates). Now whyever would you want to do that?
·   Spider Poison (SpC, Ass 3, Sor/Wiz 3): A weaker version of Poison that deals 1d6 Str/1d6 Str damage instead.
·   Toxic Tongue (CM, Ass 3): You produce a poison you can either spit (it deals 1d3 Con/1d3 Con then) or apply to a weapon (1d6 Con/1d6 Con). At 10th level onward, you have better options.


Bard

Bards make OK debilitators, some of their spells are great for this!

·   Delusions of Grandeur (SpC, Brd 2, Wor/Wiz 2): Interesting Phantasm spell that, alongside more potent effects, also inflicts a –2 Wis penalty.
·   Pyrotechnics (PHB, Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2): Apart from obscuring all vision, the smoke cloud effect imposes a –4 penalty to Str and Dex (Fort negates). Though rarely commented on, this is not a bad spell if you have a source of fire handy. Not as good as some other 2nd level spells, though.
·   Summon Swarm (PHB, Brd 2, Drd 2, Sor/Wiz 2): Can disease or poison the target(s). Rat swarms cause filth fever (Fort DC 12, incubation 1d3 days, 1d3 Dex, 1d3 Con), which likely isn’t much help. Spider Swarms have a weak Str poison (Fort DC 11, 1d3 Str/1d3 Str). May be useful for the distraction effect.
·   Dirge of Discord (SpC, Brd 3): -4 penalty to Dex among other things. Nice spell for a whole lot of other reasons.
·   Lesser Geas (PHB, Brd 3): -2 to all ability scores each day target doesn’t follow set conditions (up to –8). Not intended for a fight, of course, but very nice for roleplaying.
·   Love’s Lament (SpC, Brd 3): 1d6 Wis damage plus 1d4 rounds of Nausea in a huge cone. Will negates, but this is still excellent crowd control.
·   Celebration (SpC, Brd 4): Interesting spell that can be channeled over several rounds to produce greater effects. First effect is to impose a –2 penalty to Int, Wis and Dex – which makes it only mildly interesting to the debilitator. Black for the rest of what the spell does.
·   Body Harmonic (SpC, Brd 5): Interesting way to make your Bard a debilitator. This spell inflicts 1d10 (!) points ability damage each round you concentrate! Unfortunately, you must target a different score, and the target can roll a save to negate, each round. If you maximize this little spell, though...
·   Fever Dream (CM, Brd 5, Sor/Wiz 5): You make the target exhausted (fatigued with Fort save), and it must make Concentration checks to cast spells. A will save negates the whole effect. Not so great for 5th level.
·   Nightmare (PHB, Brd 5, Sor/Wiz 5): Leaves the target fatigued. More of a roleplaying/plot spell than anything else.
·   Dirge (SpC, Brd 6): Deal 2 points of Str and Dex damage per round (Fort negates for that round only). Rather slow-working for the level, doncha think? Think again: it affects all enemies within 50’ (!) of you. So at least the ares is huge.


Beguiler

Beguilers are, generally speaking, not debilitators. They get two powerful debilitating spells, though.

·   Touch of Idiocy (PHB, Beguiler 2, Sor/Wiz 2): 1d6 penalty to Int, Wis, and Cha is nice. No save is also nice. The only thing I don’t like is the “touch” part, but still. Recommended spell, especially with Spectral Hand. Very valuable against casters, though much less so against most other threats.
·   Feeblemind (PHB, Beguiler 5, Sor/Wiz 5): Reduces Int and Cha to 1, instantaneous (!) duration. Not true ability damage, and neither is it a penalty (?). Still doesn’t stack with ability penalties, which can’t reduce a score below 1. A possible battlewinner vs. arcane casters, who get a nice penalty to their save against this spell and are reduced to knowledgeable Commoners when they fail.


Blackguard

The options available to you are mediocre. Bah, spells aren't your forte anyway.

·   Boneblast (BoVD, Blk 1, Clr 2): Deal 1d3 Con damage with a touch, Fort halves (round down, even to zero). Wow, what a useless spell!
·   Increase Virulence (PHB2, Ass 2, Brd 2, Blk 2, Sor/Wiz 2): Make a poison more potent, increasing its save DC by +2. Works on manufactured poisons as well as venomous creatures. OK one.
·   Fangs of the Vampire King (SpC, Ass 3, Blk 3): You gain a bite attack that deals an additional point of Con damage on top of HP damage. Semi-nice for the extra attack.
·   Bleed (CC, Blk 4, Clr 5, Drd 5): Every hit by a piercing or slashing weapon against the target also deals 1 point of Con damage (Fort negates). See Bloodstar.


Cleric

As can be expected, you have a lot of debilitating spells available - and can memorize them whenever you feel like it. Clerics good debilitators make - although they lack in comparison to the other primary casters.

·   Shivering Touch, Lesser (Frost, Clr 1, Sor/Wiz 1): Deal 1d6 Dex damage with a touch, no save. A good one for the level, though Ray of Clumsiness will likely be more useful.
·   Bloodsnow (Frost, Clr 2, Drd 2, Sor/Wiz 3): As long as there’s snow, this spell is outright broken for the level. You cause snowy ground in a huge area to nauseate everyone touching it, and to take 1d2 Con drain (Fort negates both effects). Lasts several rounds.
·   Boneblast (BoVD, Blk 1, Clr 2): Deal 1d3 Con damage with a touch, Fort halves (round down, even to zero). Wow, what a useless spell!
·   Sap Strength (BoVD, Clr 2, Sor/Wiz 2): Exhaust a target with a touch (Fort negates). If they do anything but rest, they stay exhausted. Actually not a bad spell, in spite of the illogical [Evil] descriptor.
·   Thin Air (Frost, Clr 2, Drd 2, Sor/Wiz 3): You cause Altitude Sickness, dealing 1 point of damage to all ability scores. Damaging all stats at once seems very nice indeed. If only we could do something more than a single point!
·   Awaken Sin (SpC, Clr 3, Pal 2): 1d6 Wis damage if this spell knocks the target unconscious with nonlethal damage. Whatever would you want that for? Adding insult to injury?
·   Bestow Curse (PHB, Clr 3, Sor/Wiz 4): -6 penalty to any ability score. Permanent! Needs a touch attack. For a debuff, other curse options are probably better. For pure debilitation, cast something else instead.
·   Contagion (PHB, Clr 3, Drd 3, Sor/Wiz 4): Your touch causes one of 7 diseases, with no incubation period. Best choices are probably Blinding Sickness (1d4 Str plus Blindness), Shakes (1d8 Dex) and Slimy Doom (1d4 Con). All in all, not an impressive spell.
·   Corona of Cold (SpC, Clr 3, Drd 3): Very interesting multipurpose spell (buff+blast+debilitation). The debilitation part inflicts penalties similar to the Fatigued condition, but isn’t spelled out as being the same – meaning the two would likely stack.
·   Shivering Touch (Frost, Clr 3, Sor/Wiz 3): You’ve heard about this spell. It deals 3d6 Dex damage, no save, with a touch. Broken as far as I’m concerned, has earned an especially nasty reputation as a one shot Dragon killer. Add a save, and this fits in the same league as the rest of the spells we’re looking at here. The way it is, it’s (too) awesome.
·   Spark of Light (SpC, Clr 3, Drd 4): This is one heck of a spell for debilitators: it removes most immunities of Undead creatures. This means you can debilitate them – except for their still nonexistant Con score.
·   Moon Bolt (SpC, Clr 4, Drd 4): Deal 1d4/3 CL Str damage to up to two creatures, at long range (Fort half). What’s not to like? Ray of Enfeeblement is still better for the level, though.
·   Hypothermia (SpC, Clr 4, Drd 3): Deal OK cold damage to a single creature and fatigue it (Fort half/negates). Not great in either the blast or debilitation department.
·   Poison (PHB, Clr 4, Drd 3): This is a strong poison (1d10 Con/1d10 Con). A Sudden Maximized Poison spell can ruin anybody’s day (except poison-immunes...). Good spell for Druids to cast long before combat, then wildshape while holding the charge to give your first attack some extra oomph. Unusually for spells, the Fort save DC depends on your CL instead of spell level, which is good. Many things are immune to poison, which is bad. All in all, average spell.
·   Bleed (CC, Blk 4, Clr 5, Drd 5): Every hit by a piercing or slashing weapon against the target also deals 1 point of Con damage (Fort negates). See Bloodstar.
·   Contagion, Mass (SpC, Clr 5, Drd 5, Sor/Wiz 6): Where Contagion is not impressive, Mass Contagion is outright atrocious. The save DCs of disease simply cannot keep up at the level this comes into play.
·   Frostbite (Frost, Clr 5): 1/2 CL targets take 6d6 damage and 2d6 Dex damage (Fort half). Nice!
·   Mark of Sin (CC, Clr 5): Among other things, this imposes a –4 ability penalty to a specific stat. Not worth it, even though the target can only attempt a save after several rounds, and failure results in permanent duration. Roleplaying uses only.
·   Soul Scour (UE, Clr 5): Bad news up front: this is a touch attack, and Will negates. However, 2d6 Cha damage plus 1d6 Wis damage can be very nice indeed and may one-shot fighting types on a lucky roll. Add that this spell deals another 1d6 Cha damage after 1 min (like a poison, though it specifically affects poison-immunes), and this is one good spell.
·   Bestow Curse, Greater (SpC, Clr 7, Sor/Wiz 8): -6 penalty to two scores, or reduce one score to 1 (I’d assume this is a penalty as well). Well, sorry if I’m not impressed, but at this level, I’d expect something more, as all the weaknesses of regular Bestow Curse are still in force, and Feeblemind is 5th level.
·   Blasphemy (PHB, Clr 7): -2d6 Str for 2d4 rds if target has at least 1 HD less than your CL. Only useful vs. nonevil, but is an AoE spell. With CL shenanigans, not exactly bad – but not overimpressive to debilitators, either.
·   Blood to Water (SpC, Clr 7): 2d6 Con damage, Fort saves for half. This can hit up to five opponents at close range, but is otherwise unexceptional for the level. Still, irresistible Con damage is nice.
·   Plague (PHB2, Clr 7, Drd 7, Sor/Wiz 8): This is basically Mass Contagion, except the disease progresses so quickly the targets must save every round. The save DC is, unlike most disease-inducing spells, that of the spell. While at such a high level you can get better bang for your buck, this is an OK spell.
·   Slime Wave (SpC, Clr 7, Drd 7): Disgusting but effective: everything in the area is covered in Green Slime, taking 1d6 Con damage per round for 1 round/CL!
·   Withering Palm (SpC, Clr 7, Wu Jen 7): Deal 1/2 CL points each of Str and Con damage as a touch. Since it allows SR and a save to negate, this could be better – but it’s still OK. Can’t be metamagicked easily to increase debilitation, though. Is also capped at 10 points of ability damage. Hmm.
·   Befoul (BoVD, Clr 8): Make a huge body of water poisonous: 1d4 Con damage when drinking it, 1d2 when swimming in it. Useless spell most of the time.
·   Pestilence (BoVD, Clr 8, Drd 7): This spreads a disease: you infect a target (dealing 1d4 Con damage/day), and the target can infect others, who then become carriers etc. Not that useful to most PCs, to say the least.
·   Despoil (BoVD, Clr 9): You kill plants in a positively gigantic radius, and every living creature also takes... all of 1d4 Str damage (Fort negates). Considering you could cast Miracle, or Gate, or Astral Projection instead...


Druid

Druids make excellent debilitators, although they have a harder time to target mental ability scores than Sorcerers/Wizards.

·   Breath of the Jungle (SpC, Drd 1): This spell adds a +2 save DC modifier to poison and disease effects in its area. Useful to debilitators relying on those effects.
·   Winter Chill (SpC, Drd 1): Make a Fort save or become fatigued and take a little damage. OK for 1st level. Note that this is only a small upgrade over Touch of Fatigue, though.
·   Bloodsnow (Frost, Clr 2, Drd 2, Sor/Wiz 3): As long as there’s snow, this spell is outright broken for the level. You cause snowy ground in a huge area to nauseate everyone touching it, and to take 1d2 Con drain (Fort negates both effects). Lasts several rounds.
·   Numbing Sphere (Frost, Drd 2, Sor/Wiz 2): This is very similar to Flaming Sphere, but instead of piddly fire damage it deals even less cold damage, plus 1d4 Dex damage (Ref negates). This is actually not bad as a deterrent.
·   Summon Swarm (PHB, Brd 2, Drd 2, Sor/Wiz 2): Can disease or poison the target(s). Rat swarms cause filth fever (Fort DC 12, incubation 1d3 days, 1d3 Dex, 1d3 Con), which likely isn’t much help. Spider Swarms have a weak Str poison (Fort DC 11, 1d3 Str/1d3 Str). May be useful for the distraction effect.
·   Thin Air (Frost, Clr 2, Drd 2, Sor/Wiz 3): You cause Altitude Sickness, dealing 1 point of damage to all ability scores. Damaging all stats at once seems very nice indeed. If only we could do something more than a single point!
·   Winter’s Embrace (SpC, Drd 2): Target takes a little damage each round, which it can negate and end with a Fort save. If it fails twice, it’s fatigued, if it fails four times, it’s exhausted. Not exactly fire-and-forget. Not exactly useful, even.
·   Dehydrate (SpC, Drd 3): You simply deal 1d6+1/3 CL Con damage at medium (!) range (Fort negates). Not bad, though it’s basically more of a single-creature blast than anything else. Would be good against stuff with many HD like Giants or Dragons, except they have good Fort saves, of course.
·   Contagion (PHB, Clr 3, Drd 3, Sor/Wiz 4): Your touch causes one of 7 diseases, with no incubation period. Best choices are probably Blinding Sickness (1d4 Str plus Blindness), Shakes (1d8 Dex) and Slimy Doom (1d4 Con). All in all, not an impressive spell.
·   Corona of Cold (SpC, Clr 3, Drd 3): Very interesting multipurpose spell (buff+blast+debilitation). The debilitation part inflicts penalties similar to the Fatigued condition, but isn’t spelled out as being the same – meaning the two would likely stack.
·   Heatstroke (SpC, Drd 3): Fatigue a single target (stackable, Fort negates) and deal piddly nonlethal damage. Skip this.
·   Hypothermia (SpC, Clr 4, Drd 3): Deal OK cold damage to a single creature and fatigue it (Fort half/negates). Not great in either the blast or debilitation department.
·   Infestation of Maggots (SpC, Drd 3): Deal 1d4 Con damage for 1 rd/2 CL (Fort negates and ends). Not too bad, but not too good either.
·   Poison (PHB, Clr 4, Drd 3): This is a strong poison (1d10 Con/1d10 Con). A Sudden Maximized Poison spell can ruin anybody’s day (except poison-immunes...). Good spell for Druids to cast long before combat, then wildshape while holding the charge to give your first attack some extra oomph. Unusually for spells, the Fort save DC depends on your CL instead of spell level, which is good. Many things are immune to poison, which is bad. All in all, average spell.
·   Quillfire (SpC, Drd 3): For 1 round/CL, you can make melee or ranged attacks with poisonous (1d6 Str/1d6 Str) quills that otherwise do piddly damage. Not horrible, as long as your DM rules you can use these more than once during the duration (the spell description is vague).
·   Rusted Blade (CM, Ass 3, Drd 3, Sor/Wiz 4, Wu Jen 4): Enchant a blade so it infects targets hit with Filth Fever (Fort negates). Now whyever would you want to do that?
·   Moon Bolt (SpC, Clr 4, Drd 4): Deal 1d4/3 CL Str damage to up to two creatures, at long range (Fort half). What’s not to like? Ray of Enfeeblement is still better for the level, though.
·   Call of Stone (PHB2, Drd 4, Sor/Wiz 4): Inflicts a cumulative –2 Dex penalty per round, as well as reducing the target’s speed by 10’. Fort negates that round’s effect only. Nice spell, if not overwhelmingly so.
·   Contagious Touch (SpC, Drd 4): Hmm, it’s Contagion, and you can use it as a touch attack 1/rd. As if you didn’t have better things to do with your time. Still, this can give your wildshape form a nasty extra punch. I still prefer Poison for the much better DC.
·   Languor (SpC, Drd 4): Basically, it’s Ray of Enfeeblement and a single target Slow rolled into one. Will negates the latter, but not the former. Not quite worth the level, but nice against single powerful, weak-willed targets. Which you will meet a lot of.
·   Poison Vines (SpC, Drd 4): Make poisonous (1d6 Dex/2d6 Dex) heavy undergrowth. Creatures entering the area only need save once. Mediocre.
·   Spark of Light (SpC, Clr 3, Drd 4): This is one heck of a spell for debilitators: it removes most immunities of Undead creatures! This means you can debilitate them – except for their still nonexistant Con score.
·   Starvation (SpC, Drd 4): This is Hypothermia except one level higher. Hypothermia had a red rating. Guess what this one gets?
·   Bleed (CC, Blk 4, Clr 5, Drd 5): Every hit by a piercing or slashing weapon against the target also deals 1 point of Con damage (Fort negates). See Bloodstar.
·   Contagion, Mass (SpC, Clr 5, Drd 5, Sor/Wiz 6): Where Contagion is not impressive, Mass Contagion is outright atrocious. The save DCs of disease simply cannot keep up at the level this comes into play.
·   Jungle’s Rapture (SpC, Drd 5): You turn a target into a tree! 1d6 Dex drain/DAY isn’t exactly a battle-winner, though.
·   Memory Rot (SpC, Drd 5): 1d6 Int damage, plus a further 1 point of Int drain each round (Fort negates, retry every round). This is exactly what I mean saying the game’s designers overestimate the use of ability drain to PCs! Bad spell, keep away.
·   Poison Thorns (SpC, Drd 5): You grow poisonous (1d4 Str/1d4 Str) thorns. This would be a weak spell for 3rd level. It’s 5th. Don’t take.
·   Spore Cloak (RoF, Clr 5, Drd 5, Sor/Wiz 6): Interesting buff that provides concealment and deters grapple, bullrush etc. by dealing 1d6 Con damage to anybody sharing your space (Fort negates).
·   Wooden Blight (CC, Drd 5): You transform the target into wood, dealing 1d4 Dex damage per round (Fort halves each round). This also slows movement if the target has already taken Dex damage or a penalty from another source. Nice for its inevitability, but rather slow-working (compared to, say, Shivering Touch).
·   Death Hail (Frost, Drd 6): You conjure a Blizzard that persists in its area for a bit and deals 1d2 Str and Con damage each round to creatures within (Fort save halves the damage). Bloodsnow is 2nd level, and better (circumstantially, but still).
·   Entomb (Frost, Drd 6, Sor/Wiz 6): Encase lots of targets (no AoE, you choose freely!) in ice, holding them in place, damaging them, and dealing 1 Con damage per round (Fort negates). Good spell.
·   Pox (BoVD, Drd 6): 1 target/CL in a very small area take 1d4 Con damage (Fort negates). Wouldn’t be so wrong as a 3rd level spell.
·   Creeping Doom (PHB, Drd 7): This once (up to 3.0) excellent spell summons forth lowly centipede swarms in D&D 3.5. These have a weak poison (Fort DC 14, 1d4 Dex/1d4 Dex). Would be an OK 4th level spell. Is not an OK 7th level one.
·   Pestilence (BoVD, Clr 8, Drd 7): This spreads a disease: you infect a target (dealing 1d4 Con damage/day), and the target can infect others, who then become carriers etc. Not that useful to most PCs, to say the least.
·   Plague (PHB2, Clr 7, Drd 7, Sor/Wiz 8): This is basically Mass Contagion, except the disease progresses so quickly the targets must save every round. The save DC is, unlike most disease-inducing spells, that of the spell. While at such a high level you can get better bang for your buck, this is an OK spell.
·   Slime Wave (SpC, Clr 7, Drd 7): Disgusting but effective: everything in the area is covered in Green Slime, taking 1d6 Con damage per round for 1 round/CL!
·   Word of Balance (SpC, Drd 7): This is a like Blasphemy except it targets different alignments – but Druids will have greater problems pulling off CL shenanigans.
·   Red Tide (SpC, Drd 8): Conjure a wave of sickening/nauseating water that also deals 2d6 Str damage (and another 2d6 a minute later), in a huge burst. Nice crowd control.


Duskblade

Duskblades actually get some of the best low-level debilitation spells around. They should use them mostly to debuff, not take out, enemies.

·   Chill Touch (PHB, Sor/Wiz 1): Very mild Str damage (1 point) on failed Fort save on top of very little damage.  Not impressive, but it's black for Duskblades, who can channel it.
·   Ray of Enfeeblement (PHB, Sor/Wiz 1): This is the number one low level debuff in core, and possibly without as well. 1d6+1/2 CL Str penalty really takes the wind out of any big mofo to threaten your Wizard with something sharp. Excellent debilitation! Pity you can't channel it.
·   Touch of Idiocy (PHB, Sor/Wiz 2): 1d6 penalty to Int, Wis, and Cha is nice. No save is also nice. Recommended spell, very valuable against casters, though much less so against most other threats. Excellent for your channeling ability.
·   Ray of Exhaustion (PHB, Sor/Wiz 3): Causes the Exhausted condition on a failed save, which is a pretty heavy debuff. Still causes Fatigue on a successful (!) save – which is self-stacking. Nice spell.
·   Toxic Weapon (PHB2, Dusk 4, Sor/Wiz 5): This works like the Poison spell, except it coats a weapon for a single attack. Just channel something useful instead.
·   Waves of Fatigue (PHB, Sor/Wiz 5): Waves of Exhaustion’s little brother, this spell only makes its subjects Fatigued, and only in a 30’ cone. The fact that the fatigue caused by this spell isn’t even self-stacking for some reason makes the whole package rather useless.


Hexblade

Better than nothing, I guess. Karmic Backlash is good buffage at all times.

·   Death’s Call (CM, Hex 1, Sor/Wiz 1): Not bad for 1st level. You deal a little damage in an area and fatigue the targets. A Fort save negates the fatigue only.
·   Karmic Aura (CM, Hex 1, Sor/Wiz 1): Whoever attacks you or casts a spell at you must make a Fort save or become fatigued (non-self stacking, lasts only for 3 rounds).
·   Karmic Backlash (CM, Hex 2, Sor/Wiz 3): Like Karmic Aura, but exhausted, and lasts for only 2 rounds. Still, exhausted is a heavy debuff.
·   Hood of the Cobra (CM, Hex 3, Sor/Wiz 3): Interesting in that it is an illusion spell that deals Con damage. Otherwise, not so great, as the target can negate the whole spell with a Will save, and each instance of 1d6 Con damage (which you deal as a standard action touch attack) is negated with a Fort save.


Paladin

Ahem.

·   Awaken Sin (SpC, Clr 3, Pal 2): 1d6 Wis damage if this spell knocks the target unconscious with nonlethal damage. Whatever would you want that for? Adding insult to injury?


Offline Toptomcat

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Re: Hatchet Job Port Thread
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2013, 12:28:29 AM »
continued


Ranger

Not much here...

·   Snakebite (SpC, Rng 4, Sor/Wiz 3): One of your arms becomes a poisonous (2 Con/2 Con) snake. Interesting visuals, though Gutsnake is cooler. For the effect, cast something else.



How to debilitate: Spells II

Sorcerer/Wizard

These classes are the (potentially) most powerful and versatile debilitators you'll ever meet. Sorcerers must pick their spells with care, of course, but some options here are simply awesome even for them.

·   Touch of Fatigue (PHB, Sor/Wiz 0): Causes Fatigued condition for a short time (1 rd/lvl). Very mild for having to make a touch attack and allowing a Fort save to negate. But hey, it’s debilitation with a cantrip!
·   Chill Touch (PHB, Sor/Wiz 1): Very mild Str damage (1 point) on failed Fort save on top of very little damage.  Not impressive.
·   Death’s Call (CM, Hex 1, Sor/Wiz 1): Not bad for 1st level. You deal a little damage in an area and fatigue the targets. A Fort save negates the fatigue only.
·   Karmic Aura (CM, Hex 1, Sor/Wiz 1): Whoever attacks you or casts a spell at you must make a Fort save or become fatigued (non-self stacking, lasts only for 3 rounds).
·   Ray of Clumsiness (SpC, Sor/Wiz 1): This works exactly like Ray of Enfeeblement, except it targets Dex. Dex is usually a little weaker to attack than Str. Still, solid spell.
·   Ray of Enfeeblement (PHB, Sor/Wiz 1): This is the number one low level debuff in core, and possibly without as well. 1d6+1/2 CL Str penalty really takes the wind out of any big mofo to threaten your Wizard with something sharp. Excellent debilitation!
·   Reduce Person, and Reduce Person, Mass (PHB, Sor/Wiz 1, 4): Usually seen as a light buff for casters, this also imposes a –2 penalty to Str, among other melee debuffage. Reducing an enemy NPC has some potential, but is still probably not worth your time. You might actually get some mileage out of the Mass version if you’re fighting a bunch of Humanoids.
·   Shivering Touch, Lesser (Frost, Clr 1, Sor/Wiz 1): Deal 1d6 Dex damage with a touch, no save. A good one for the level, though Ray of Clumsiness will likely be more useful.
·   Spirit Worm (SpC, Sor/Wiz 1): Deal 1 point of Con damage per round for 1 rd/CL. The target may negate and end the spell with a Fort save each round. It’s also a touch attack spell. No, not even a mere 1st level spell should be this weak!
·   Crystalline Memories (CM, Sor/Wiz 2): For the sake of completeness... you concentrate for 3 rounds, then deal piddly damage and 2 Int damage to the target. Why would you do so? So you get a “crystallised” single memory straight from the target’s brain.
·   Delusions of Grandeur (SpC, Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2): Interesting Phantasm spell that, alongside more potent effects, also inflicts a –2 Wis penalty.
·   Escalating Enfeeblement (CM, Sor/Wiz 2): This is a Ray of Enfeeblement (and works exactly the same), except it deal 1d10+1/2 CL Str penalty if your target is already fatigued, exhausted, or has taken damage to a physical ability score. Now is this really a worthy 2nd level spell? I guess so. Only goes to show how good Ray of Enfeeblement is. BTW, the two explicitly don’t stack.
·   Increase Virulence (PHB2, Ass 2, Brd 2, Blk 2, Sor/Wiz 2): Make a poison more potent, increasing its save DC by +2. Works on manufactured poisons as well as venomous creatures. OK one.
·   Kelgore’s Grave Mist (PHB2, Sor/Wiz 2): Good spell that fatigues and deals light cold damage in an area, no save, for several rounds. Recommended.
·   Numbing Sphere (Frost, Drd 2, Sor/Wiz 2): This is very similar to Flaming Sphere, but instead of piddly fire damage it deals even less cold damage, plus 1d4 Dex damage (Ref negates). This is actually not bad as a deterrent.
·   Phantasmal Assailant (SpC, Sor/Wiz 2): Phantasmal Killer’s little brother, this one doesn’t kill. Instead it does 8 points each of Wis and Dex damage, with a Fort save to halve the ability damage (Will negates entirely, as Phantasmal Killer). Definitely not shabby for 2nd level, even though Wis and Dex is a weak target profile for debilitators.
·   Pyrotechnics (PHB, Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2): Apart from obscuring all vision, the smoke cloud effect imposes a –4 penalty to Str and Dex (Fort negates). Though rarely commented on, this is not a bad spell if you have a source of fire handy. Not as good as some other 2nd level spells, though.
·   Ray of Stupidity (SpC, Sor/Wiz 2): A ray that deals 1d4+1 points of Int damage. While this is less in amount than Ray of Enfeeblement and targets a weaker stat, it will still one-shot animals and quite a few other foes, because it’s damage, not a penalty.
·   Sap Strength (BoVD, Clr 2, Sor/Wiz 2): Exhaust a target with a touch (Fort negates). If they do anything but rest, they stay exhausted. Actually not a bad spell, in spite of the illogical [Evil] descriptor.
·   Shadow Spray (SpC, Sor/Wiz 2): Deals 4 points of Str damage, plus 1 round of dazing. Not bad. You will choose Ray of Enfeeblement over this most of the time, though.
·   Summon Swarm (PHB, Brd 2, Drd 2, Sor/Wiz 2): Can disease or poison the target(s). Rat swarms cause filth fever (Fort DC 12, incubation 1d3 days, 1d3 Dex, 1d3 Con), which likely isn’t much help. Spider Swarms have a weak Str poison (Fort DC 11, 1d3 Str/1d3 Str). May be useful.
·   Touch of Idiocy (PHB, Sor/Wiz 2): 1d6 penalty to Int, Wis, and Cha is nice. No save is also nice. The only thing I don’t like is the “touch” part, but still. Recommended spell, especially with Spectral Hand. Very valuable against casters, though much less so against most other threats.
·   Bloodsnow (Frost, Clr 2, Drd 2, Sor/Wiz 3): As long as there’s snow, this spell is outright broken for the level. You cause snowy ground in a huge area to nauseate everyone touching it, and to take 1d2 Con drain (Fort negates both effects). Lasts several rounds.
·   Contagious Fog (SpC, Sor/Wiz 3): This ain’t bad for the level. It’s an area effect similar to Cloudkill, but causes 1d8 Dex damage instead. The fixed Fort save DC to negate is very easy, though.
·   Dread Word (BoVD, Sor/Wiz 3): You deal 1d3 Cha drain to a single target (Fort negates). Wouldn’t memorize this even if it were a cantrip!
·   Hood of the Cobra (CM, Hex 3, Sor/Wiz 3): Interesting in that it is an illusion spell that deals Con damage. Otherwise, not so great, as it puts you in melee, the target can negate the whole spell with a Will save, and each instance of 1d6 Con damage (which you deal as a standard action touch attack) is negated with a Fort save.
·   Karmic Backlash (CM, Hex 2, Sor/Wiz 3): Like Karmic Aura, but exhausted, and lasts for only 2 rounds. Still, exhausted is a heavy debuff.
·   Mind Poison (SpC, Sor/Wiz 3): This is a Poison spell that deals Wis damage instead of Con. Wis isn’t as good to target as Con. But now your Sorcerer can do it... Still bad.
·   Ray of Exhaustion (PHB, Sor/Wiz 3): Causes the Exhausted condition on a failed save, which is a pretty heavy debuff. Still causes Fatigue on a successful (!) save – which is self-stacking. Nice spell.
·   Shivering Touch (Frost, Clr 3, Sor/Wiz 3): You’ve heard about this spell. It deals 3d6 Dex damage, no save, with a touch. Broken as far as I’m concerned, has earned an especially nasty reputation as a one shot Dragon killer. Add a save, and this fits in the same league as the rest of the spells we’re looking at here. The way it is, it’s (too) awesome.
·   Snakebite (SpC, Rng 4, Sor/Wiz 3): One of your arms becomes a poisonous (2 Con/2 Con) snake. Interesting visuals, though Gutsnake is cooler. For the effect, cast something else.
·   Spider Poison (SpC, Ass 3, Sor/Wiz 3): A weaker version of Poison that deals 1d6 Str/1d6 Str damage instead. You know which spell debilitates Str more effectively, at range, don’t you?
·   Thin Air (Frost, Clr 2, Drd 2, Sor/Wiz 3): You cause Altitude Sickness, dealing 1 point of damage to all ability scores. Damaging all stats at once seems very nice indeed. If only we could do something more than a single point!
·   Vipergout (SpC, Sor/Wiz 3): You begin to spit out celestial or fiendish Vipers. These can poison your enemies. But you’d probably rather not want to regurgitate vipers from out of nowhere, anyway, would you?
·   Bestow Curse (PHB, Clr 3, Sor/Wiz 4): -6 penalty to any ability score. Permanent! Needs a touch attack. For a debuff, other curse options are probably better. For pure debilitation, cast something else instead.
·   Bloodstar (SpC, Sor/Wiz 4): This spell adds insult to injury whenever the target is damaged, dealing 1 point of Con damage (Fort negates). I’d pass, as even Con damage is too mild at 1 point/hit so long as the target may still roll a save.
·   Call of Stone (PHB2, Drd 4, Sor/Wiz 4): Inflicts a cumulative –2 Dex penalty per round, as well as reducing the target’s speed by 10’. Fort negates that round’s effect only. Nice spell, if not overwhelmingly so.
·   Contagion (PHB, Clr 3, Drd 3, Sor/Wiz 4): Your touch causes one of 7 diseases, with no incubation period. Best choices are probably Blinding Sickness (1d4 Str plus Blindness), Shakes (1d8 Dex) and Slimy Doom (1d4 Con). All in all, not an impressive spell.
·   Corporeal Instability (SpC, Sor/Wiz 4): Good spell for taking an enemy out of the picture for a few rds. The 1 point of Wis drain each round isn’t that interesting, though.
·   Mindfrost (Frost, Sor/Wiz 4): You deal 5d6 damage to the target and also inflict 1d4 Int damage (Fort half). I’d pass.
·   Rusted Blade (CM, Ass 3, Drd 3, Sor/Wiz 4, Wu Jen 4): Enchant a blade so it infects targets hit with Filth Fever (Fort negates). Now whyever would you want to do that?
·   Sinsabur's Baleful Bolt (UE, Sor/Wiz 4): Line effect out to medium range deals 1d3+1/4 CL Con and Str damage. This is an AoE spell, meaning it's sculptable. Reflex saves for half, but this is not a bad spell all in all.
·   Touch of Years (CM, Sor/Wiz 4): Your touch deals 3 points of drain to all physical ability scores (Fort negates). This repeats every 24 hours. If you cast the spell on the same target again, it is permanently blinded and deafened. Apart from being a good way to take revenge on a hated enemy, the base effect is not bad in itself.
·   Channeled Lifetheft (CM, Sor/Wiz 5): You deal some damage to the target and gain some commensurate temporary HP. You also render the target fatigued or even exhausted. Damage, temporary HP and status effect depend on how much time you decide to spend casting this spell (up to 2 rounds).
·   Cloudkill (PHB, Sor/Wiz 5): Creatures with 4 to 6 HD take 1d4 Con damage even on a successful (!) Fort save. Creatures with more HD take 1d4 Con damage on a failed save, half that on a successful (!) save. Excellent crowd control. If only the damn thing would stay in place! Blue for the AoE.
·   Cryptwarden’s Grasp (CM, Sor/Wiz 5): You infect the target with Mummy Rot (1d6 Con and 1d6 Cha). Unnecessary spell.
·   Feeblemind (PHB, Sor/Wiz 5): Reduces Int and Cha to 1, instantaneous (!) duration. Not true ability damage, and neither is it a penalty (?). Still doesn’t stack with ability penalties, which can’t reduce a score below 1. A possible battlewinner vs. arcane casters, who get a nice penalty to their save against this spell and are reduced to knowledgeable Commoners when they fail.
·   Fever Dream (CM, Brd 5, Sor/Wiz 5): You make the target exhausted (fatigued with Fort save), and it must make Concentration checks to cast spells. A will save negates the whole effect. Not so great for 5th level.
·   Nightmare (PHB, Brd 5, Sor/Wiz 5): Leaves the target fatigued. More of a roleplaying/plot spell than anything else.
·   Night’s Caress (SpC, Sor/Wiz 5): Your touch deals up to 15d6/CL HP damage, as well as 1d6+2 Con damage. This would be a highly damaging spell against a single foe, but they get Fort to negate the Con damage. Furthermore, it’s a touch spell. Not so good as it seems at first glance.
·   Toxic Weapon (PHB2, Dusk 4, Sor/Wiz 5): This works like the Poison spell, except it coats a weapon for a single attack. Why this is higher level escapes me.
·   Waves of Fatigue (PHB, Sor/Wiz 5): Waves of Exhaustion’s little brother, this spell only makes its subjects Fatigued, and only in a 30’ cone. The fact that the fatigue caused by this spell isn’t even self-stacking for some reason makes the whole package rather useless.
·   Prismatic Aura, Bow, Deluge, Eye, Ray, Sphere, Spray, Wall (PHB/CArc/CM/SpC, Sor/Wiz 5 [also Warmage 5], 7, 8, 9): The “green” (Poison) effect causes mild Con damage (1d6) even on a successful (!) save. This is not the reason (some of) these spells are interesting, though.
·   Contagion, Mass (SpC, Clr 5, Drd 5, Sor/Wiz 6): Where Contagion is not impressive, Mass Contagion is outright atrocious. The save DCs of disease simply cannot keep up at the level this comes into play.
·   Entomb (Frost, Drd 6, Sor/Wiz 6): Encase lots of targets (no AoE, you choose freely!) in ice, holding them in place, damaging them, and dealing 1 Con damage per round (Fort negates). Good spell.
·   Fiendform (UE, Sor/Wiz 6): Polymorph into fiends summonable by Summon Monster I-V and gain all of its (Ex), (Sp), and (Su) abilities. This offers a lot of options, some of them useful to debilitators. Fiendish poisonous vermin are just the beginning.
·   Ray of Entropy (SpC, Sor/Wiz 6): This is a remodeled Ray of Enfeeblement that inflicts a –4 penalty to all of Str, Dex, and Con instead of something meaningful to only one of the three. Oh, and it’s sixth (!) level.
·    Spore Cloak (RoF, Clr 5, Drd 5, Sor/Wiz 6): Interesting buff that provides concealment and deters grapple, bullrush etc. by dealing 1d6 Con damage to anybody sharing your space (Fort negates).
·   Choking Cobwebs: (CM, Sor/Wiz 7): A variation on the lowly Web spell, this one’s actually worse in some respects (better in others, but still). If you have two Choking Cobwebs spells overlapping, creatures entering the area are nauseated and take 1d4 Con damage (Fort negates). Quite unimpressive for 7th level.
·   Symbol of Weakness (PHB, Sor/Wiz 7): Like all Symbol spells, very situational by virtue of 10 min casting time and highly expensive component. Deals heavy Str damage (3d6, Fort negates) to all in its area for 10 min/CL. Nice effect, but the setup is simply not worth it. If you can get it as a SLA, on the other hand...
·   Waves of Exhaustion (PHB, Sor/Wiz 7): No save to exhaust all in a 60’ cone sound good? Well, it should be, being a 7th level spell. Would be great as a 5th level spell, I’m not so sure about it being 7th.
·   Bestow Curse, Greater (SpC, Clr 7, Sor/Wiz 8): -6 penalty to two scores, or reduce one score to 1 (I’d assume this is a penalty as well). Well, sorry if I’m not impressed, but at this level, I’d expect something more, as all the weaknesses of regular Bestow Curse are still in force, and Feeblemind is 5th level.
·   Blackfire (SpC, Sor/Wiz 8): 1d4 Con damage/round plus nausea isn’t bad. It’s an 8th level spell, though, and the target gets a save each round. Burning Blood does the same thing with HP damage instead of mild Con damage (so basically the same), and it’s only a 5th level spell. As I don’t see the 3 level difference, I’d pass.
·   Flensing (SpC, Sor/Wiz 8): Piddly damage each round, and 1d6 Cha plus 1d6 Con damage. The target gets a save each round, so this is not worth its high level slot.
·   Plague (PHB2, Clr 7, Drd 7, Sor/Wiz 8): This is basically Mass Contagion, except the disease progresses so quickly the targets must save every round. The save DC is, unlike most disease-inducing spells, that of the spell. While at such a high level you can get better bang for your buck, this is an OK spell.
·   Steal Life (BoVD, Sor/Wiz 8): It’s your [Evil] gateway to immortality, although it doesn’t help in combat: drain 1 ability point/round, as long as you concentrate. Grow 1 week younger per point drained. Clearly, this is not debilitation as we understand it, but still a nice effect.
·   Deadly Sunstroke (CM, Sor/Wiz 9, Wu Jen 9): I’ll not even describe what this spell does. Suffice to say it’s really, really, I mean, really bad.
·   Weird (PHB, Sor/Wiz 9): Area effect Phantasmal Killer on steroids that also deals 1d4 points of Str damage for some reason. Still not good enough for a 9th level spell...


Warmage

Bit better than I expected, but still not impressive. However, just wait until Rainbow Servant kicks in, and take a look at the Cleric list...

·   Chill Touch (PHB, Sor/Wiz 1): Very mild Str damage (1 point) on failed Fort save on top of very little damage.  Not impressive.
·   Ice Knife (CArc, Asn 2, Wu Jen 2, Warmage 2): Does a little damage and 2 points of Dex damage on a ranged touch (Fort negates). Even on a miss some minor damage in an area, but no Dex damage. Not worth it most of the time.
·   Pyrotechnics (PHB, Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2): Apart from obscuring all vision, the smoke cloud effect imposes a –4 penalty to Str and Dex (Fort negates). Though rarely commented on, this is not a bad spell if you have a source of fire handy. Not as good as some other 2nd level spells, though.
·   Poison (PHB, Clr 4, Drd 3, Warmage 3): This is a strong poison (1d10 Con/1d10 Con). A Sudden Maximized Poison spell can ruin anybody’s day (except poison-immunes...). Good spell for Druids to cast long before combat, then wildshape while holding the charge to give your first attack some extra oomph. Unusually for spells, the Fort save DC depends on your CL instead of spell level, which is good. Many things are immune to poison, which is bad. All in all, average spell.
·   Contagion (PHB, Clr 3, Drd 3, Sor/Wiz 4, Warmage 4): Your touch causes one of 7 diseases, with no incubation period. Best choices are probably Blinding Sickness (1d4 Str plus Blindness), Shakes (1d8 Dex) and Slimy Doom (1d4 Con). All in all, not an impressive spell.
·   Prismatic Ray, Spray, Wall, Sphere (PHB, CArc, Sor/Wiz 5, 7, 8, 9, Warmage 5, 7, 8, 9): The “green” (Poison) effect causes mild Con damage (1d6) even on a successful (!) save.
·   Waves of Fatigue (PHB, Sor/Wiz 5, Warmage 5): Waves of Exhaustion’s little brother, this spell only makes its subjects Fatigued, and only in a 30’ cone. The fact that the fatigue caused by this spell isn’t even self-stacking for some reason makes the whole package rather useless.
·   Waves of Exhaustion (PHB, Sor/Wiz 7, Warmage 7): No save to exhaust all in a 60’ cone sound good? Well, it should be, being a 7th level spell. Would be great as a 5th level spell, I’m not so sure about it being 7th.
·   Weird (PHB, Sor/Wiz 9, Warmage 9): Area effect Phantasmal Killer on steroids that also deals 1d4 points of Str damage for some reason. Still not good enough for a 9th level spell...


Wu Jen

Some surprisingly good exclusive spells here, but not that many options all in all.

·   Cobra’s Breath (CArc, Wu Jen 1): Deal 1d3 Con damage in a small cone. Not shabby for a 1st level spell, if you’re a Wu Jen.
·   Ice Blast (CArc, Wu Jen 2): Not bad in damage, and may fatigue targets in a cone. Good 2nd level spell due to the high damage cap, the fatigue is just (literal) icing.
·   Ice Knife (CArc, Asn 2, Wu Jen 2, Warmage 2): Does a little damage and 2 points of Dex damage on a ranged touch (Fort negates). Even on a miss some minor damage in an area, but no Dex damage. Not worth it most of the time.
·   Kiss of the Toad (CArc, Wu Jen 2): Weaker version of the Poison spell (1d6 instead of 1d10 Con damage). Not bad for second level.
·   Poison Needles (CArc, Wu Jen 4): This spell allows several options, two of which are of interest here: your poisoned needles either deal Con (1d8/1d8) or Dex (1d10/1d10) damage. OK spell, especially since there’s no need to touch the target as with run-off-the-mill Poison.
·   Rusted Blade (CM, Ass 3, Drd 3, Sor/Wiz 4, Wu Jen 4): Enchant a blade so it infects targets hit with Filth Fever (Fort negates). Now whyever would you want to do that?
·   Snake Darts (CArc, Wu Jen 4): Very flavorful spell (swallowing live vipers is fun), that also deals 2d6/2d6 Con damage as a poison effect. This as a ranged spell that auto-hits and also does some HP damage. Very good one, even for 4th level. Better than Poison in every way.
·   Water to Poison (CArc, Wu Jen 4): This creates a lot of poison doses (1 Con/1d8 Con, strangely Will negates), although the only poison you can produce is an ingested one. Thus, this spell is of limited use even under the best of circumstances.
·   Withering Palm (SpC, Clr 7, Wu Jen 7): Deal 1/2 CL points each of Str and Con damage as a touch. Since it allows SR and a save to negate, this could be better – but it’s still OK. Can’t be metamagicked easily to increase debilitation, though. Is also capped at 10 points of ability damage. Hmm.
·   Deadly Sunstroke (CM, Sor/Wiz 9, Wu Jen 9): I’ll not even describe what this spell does. Suffice to say it’s really, really, I mean, really bad.


Corrupt spells

These are, generally speaking, not worth it.

·   Lahm’s Finger Darts (BoVD, Corrupt 2): 1d4 Dex damage... per finger you permanently sacrifice! Is black if you have regeneration.
·   Red Fester (BoVD, Corrupt 3): Touch a target to deal 1d6 points of Str damage and 1d4 points of Cha damage (Fort negates). Take 1d6 Str damage in return. Somehow, this doesn’t balance out to a useful 3rd level spell to me.
·   Rotting Curse of Urfesta (BoVD, Corrupt 3): 1d6 Con damage to a single target, plus another 1d6/hour. Instantaneous duration: they’re already dead, they just don’t know it yet. Might be useful some of the time, if you can mitigate the corruption cost.
·   Serpents of Theggeron (BoVD, Corrupt 3): Your arms turn into poisonous (1d6 Str/1d6 Str) serpents. Would be OK, if you didn’t need your arms to cast. FAIL!
·   Power Leech (BoVD, Corrupt 5): You deal 1 point of ability drain (your choice) per round, and gain a similar enhancement bonus to your score. Looks interesting at first glance, but is hard to set up to work efficiently.
·   Chain of Sorrow (HoH, Corrupt 7): You deal 2d10 Wis damage to one target. If it fails its save for half damage, it will transmit the spell to an ally by touch, who is then similarly affected and so on. Sounds like fun, and great amounts of Wis damage are hard to come by.
·   Plague of Nightmares (BoVD, Corrupt 8): Target cannot regenerate, and takes 1d4 Cha drain/day. Exceedingly useless.


Summon Monster X, Summon Nature’s Ally X, as well as the Planar Ally and Planar Binding lines of spells are just too much to sum up here. There are all manners of interesting creatures with debilitating abilities you can summon/call with these. Get creative!



How to debilitate: Invocations

Warlocks can be debilitators too! Not very good ones, though.

·   Curse of Despair (Lesser): As Bestow Curse, can give a permanent –6 penalty to any one ability. OK at best.
·   Enervating Shadow (Greater): -4 penalty to Str for 5 rounds doesn’t seem to warrant a greater invocation. It’s weaker (heh!) than Ray of Enfeeblement!
·   Hellrime Blast (Lesser): This eldritch essence imposes a –4 Dex penalty to the target of your eldritch blast. You have better things to do with your lesser invocations.
·   Mask of Flesh (Lesser): You deal a -1d6 Cha penalty, and you look like the target. Sounds fun but rather limited.
·   Miasmic Cloud (Least): A cloud centered on you which fatigues all who enter for a short time. There’re better invocations, and better ways to produce ability penalties.
·   Summon Swarm (Least): See spell description for details. Good least invocation, best swapped out once you get better attacking powers.


How to debilitate: Psionic Powers

This section was kindly provided by Zemyla! All credit goes to him, since I haven't the first idea about psionics.

    * Affinity Field (XPH, Psion/Wilder 9) and Affinity Field, Pain (CP, Pain and Suffering 9, Psion/Wilder 9): Any ability damage you take, all creatures in the area take.  Fort negates.  Save this for creating horribly broken infinite loops, not debuffing.
    * Astral Construct (poison touch option) (XPH, Shaper 1): 1 Con/1d2 Con, Fort negates.  You need to be creating at least a 4th level construct with this power, which requires you to be 7th level.  Note that this is on every attack, so if you're an astral construct-focused manifester, this is a not terrible choice.
    * Crystalstorm (CP, Psion/Wilder 2): 1d4 Con + 1 Con/2 PP, Fort negates.  Deals damage on top of the Con damage, and requires a ranged touch attack, but has no SR.  Not terrible, but augmentation isn't that great.
    * Ego Whip (XPH, Psion/Wilder 2): 1d4 Cha + 1d4 Cha/4 PP, Will half.  A nice, big chunk of Cha damage (a maximized, twinned Ego Whip can deal 22.5 Cha damage on average, and that is a house.
    * Entangling Ectoplasm (XPH, Psion/Wilder 1): Entangle a creature with a ranged touch attack.  No save, no SR.  Damn nice at low levels, and pretty good even at higher ones.
    * Larval Flayers (CP, Psion/Wilder 2): Summons 1d3 larval flayers.  Each one has an ability that lets it deal 1d4 Int damage a round, but no more than 4 total.  Augmenting allows you to have the flayers already stuck to a foe.  Actually a pretty fair choice.
    * Mindfire (CP, Psion/Wilder 3): Gives the target mindfire, dealing 1d4 Int right away and 1d4 Int each day after, Fort negates.  Since you probably can't give a creature the same disease more than once, this is fairly useless.
    * Prevenom and Prevenom Weapon (XPH, Psychic Warrior 1): They're the same, except one affects a claw and one affects a weapon.  2 Con + 2 Con/6 PP, Fort negates.  Like poison, the save DC is based on your manifester level.  At the base level, it's like dealing an extra HD worth of damage.  Higher augmentation is too pricey to be useful.
    * Psychic Vampire (XPH, Egoist 4/Psychic Warrior 4): 2 Int, Wis, or Cha, Fort negates.  Though specifying the type of damage is good, requiring a touch attack isn't.  Also, against a psionic foe, it will simply drain power points instead of dealing ability damage.
    * Shadow Eft (CP, Psion/Wilder 4): Summons a shadow eft, which can use truevenom 3 times a day.  Since truevenom isn't that good, and the shadow eft isn't that good a creature, the power in all is mediocre.
    * Strength of My Enemy (XPH, Psychic Warrior 2): 1 Str, no save.  This power is great because when you deal Str damage, you get the same amount as an enhancement bonus to your Str.  It's not just a debuff, it's a buff as well.
    * Truevenom and Truevenom Weapon (XPH, Psychic Warrior 4): 1d8 Con/1d8 Con, Fort negates.  Not as good as poison, because it requires an actual attack, and can't be augmented to increase the save DC.  It's not even as good as prevenom.

How to debilitate: Maneuvers


Straight up debilitation is mostly the province of the Shadow Hand discipline, although others offer a little something here and there. However, quite a few maneuvers support and complement other sources of melee debilitation (often by granting extra attacks).

Diamond Mind:

·   Avalanche of Blades (Swordsage 7, Warblade 7): make lots of attacks, as long as you hit. This is good if your debilitation piles on with every attack
·   Diamond Nightmare Blade (Swordsage 8, Warblade 8): make a Concentration check to deal four times your normal melee damage. Use with a Wounding Weapon, and caution.
·   Mind Strike (Swordsage 4, Warblade 4): on top of normal damage, you deal 1d4 Wis damage (Will negates). I don't see a point to this, since maneuvers are hard to spam, and that little Wis damage won't help you out in a melee.
·   Ruby Nightmare Blade (Swordsage 4, Warblade 4): as the Diamond version, but only double damage. Still great for the level.

Iron Heart:

·   Adamantine Hurricane (Warblade 8): make two attacks against every adjacent creature... hmm. Situational, but with a maneuver like this, you're going to seek out that situation. Multi-debilitation, here we come.
·   Mithral Tornado (Warblade 4): like its bigger brother Adamantine Hurricane, even though you'll only get one attack per enemy. However, the lower level means it can be interesting for multiclass characters, as well. Something that can channel a spell would be nice with this. Saves lots of feats on Whirlwind attack.

Shadow Hand:

·   Bloodletting Strike (Swordsage 5): your attack deals an extra 4 points of Con damage (Fort half). I actually think this is a little high in level, even though the save only halves the Con damage and doesn't negate it completely.
·   Drain Vitality (Swordsage 2): as Bloodletting Strike, but only 2 points of Con damage (Fort negates). Hmm, this is really very little debilitation, you'll usually just shave off a few HP here and there with this.
·   Five Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike (Swordsage 9): the Shadow Hand capstone. On top of lots of bonus damage, you randomly deal either 2d6 Dex or 2d6 Str damage, or both. You also inflict additional status effects of a short duration (Fort negates, and halves the ability damage), of which one is, strangely, another 2d6 Con damage (with a duration of 1d6 rounds?!). Strange, random effect, hard to rate. Let's say it just stays black for now, shall we?
·   Strength Draining Strike (Swordsage 3): your attack deals an extra 4 points of Str damage (Fort half). This is OK for the level, I think, but even the full 4 points of Str damage won't take your foe out, just debuff him a little.

Stone Dragon:

·   Bonesplitting Strike (Crusader 4, Swordsage 4, Warblade 4): Your attack deals an extra 2 points of Con damage (no save). Irresistible Con damage? Sign me up... wait, what's the level again?
·   Mountain Tombstone Strike (Crusader 9, Swordsage 9, Warblade 9): Stone Dragon's capstone, this attack simply deals an extra 2d6 points of Con damage. I'd take Iron Heart's fixed 100 damage over that any day of the week. Your target must have more than 30 HD to make this better on average! Not to mention that some monsters can't be Con damaged...

Tiger Claw:

·   Hamstring Attack (Swordsage 7, Warblade 7): Just 1d8 Dex damage and a speed penalty, with a Fort save to halve both effects? Not worth our time at this level. We don't want to inflict minor inconvenience, we want to inflict death and suffering!
·   Raging Mongoose (Swordsage 8, Warblade 8): Make two extra attacks this round, four if you're wielding two weapons. Who wouldn't like that? Very high level, though.



How to debilitate: Feats


Metamagic:


·   Chain Spell (CArc): Why not debilitate many opponents at once? Not great, but OK for the cost. This gets nasty with metamagic cost reducers.

·   Empower Spell/Sudden Empower (CArc): This is good for many spells that cause ability damage, as that damage is most often expressed in dice, not in fixed numbers, meaning you can empower the spells’ effects. An Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement is only a 3rd level spell, but causes from 9 to 16 points of Str penalty at CL 10. With an average of 12.5, this is better than Shivering Touch and targets Str instead of Dex. Although it only inflicts a penalty, not damage, you can do this at range!

·   Fell Weaken (Libris Mortis): This is crazy good. 4 points of Str penalty with no save, added onto any kind of damaging spell? How does Fell Weaken Magic Missile sound to you? Yeah, that’s right, take the fight out of 5 opponents at the same time, no save, no nothing. Only +1, very nice with AoE or multiple target spells.

·   Maximize Spell/Sudden Maximize (CArc): Not as good as Empower Spell. The sudden variant might be worth it for a 1/day heavy debuff or even instant finisher, if nova-ing is your thing, and in low level or E6 games.

·   Reach Spell (CDiv): So you can apply Chain to touch spells. A Chained Reach Shivering Touch can take down... well, several dragons at once, should you ever have the misfortune to meet them.

·   Repeat Spell (CArc): Twin Spell but suckier. Forget this exists at once (you probably had, until reading about it here).

·   Sculpt Spell (CArc): This is just great in general, and if you have a way of applying ability damage to an area spell (like Fell Weaken, for example), it just becomes better.

·   Split Ray (CArc): This is great! Split that Escalating Enfeeblement to hit both Trolls at once! Or a Ray of Exhaustion for a no-save auto-exhaust. And only +2 spell levels to boot.

·   Twin Spell (CArc): Expensive, but with ability damage or drain (NOT penalty), this can be worth it. Try to get some metamagic cost reducer on there, though.

·   Widen Spell (CArc): May not sound too bad on a Fell Weaken Entangle spell. 80’ radius is HUGE. But 40’ radius is usually enough. And three levels higher... I don’t recommend it.


Combat Oriented:

·   Battle Jump (UE): Deal double damage with a jumping charge. Much like Spirited Charge or Headlong Rush, this can be used to deal great amounts of debilitation if you have a weapon or power which does so.

·   Cleave: A bonus attack with your Wounding weapon is never wrong. Not such a bad feat as some make it out to be.

·   Disemboweling Strike (CS): Forego 4d6 sneak attack damage to deal 1d4 Con damage instead. Whether this is worth it depends heavily on the kind of opponent you’re fighting. By pure arithmetic, you’ll fare well with this feat if your opponent has more than 11 HD (at 11 HD, an average 2.5 Con damage results in 13.75 HP damage, almost as much as your average 4d6) – and that doesn’t even count the Fort save reduction. So, this can be good at high levels. Forget about killing anybody by bringing Con to 0 in this way, though.

·   Dual Strike (CAdv): Good if you debilitate with each melee attack. There’s better ways of doing it, though, like Pounce, for example.

·   Great Cleave: This sucks. Very situational, and just takes too many feats.

·   Maiming Strike: Another ambush feat, for 2d6 points of Sneak Attack damage you forgo, you deal one point of Cha damage. Must check if you can forgo e.g. 6d6 SA damage to deal 3 Cha damage, which would be awesome! If not, it's still solid.

·   Manyshot/Greater and Rapid Shot/Improved: Good if you have an ability damaging or draining bow or ammunition.

·   Savvy Rogue (CS): A Crippling Strike sneak attacker wants this! Even sneak-immune targets are Str damaged now! Also a good feat in other regards, pity so few Rogues take so many Rogue levels.

·   Spirited Charge: Interesting with a Wounding lance.

·   TWF/Improved/Greater: This is good if you have a class or racial ability that deals ability damage or drain on every attack (such as the Rogue’s Crippling Strike special ability). Also good with 2 Wounding weapons.

·   Weakening Touch (CWar): Lots of prereqs, and the effect is limited: make a touch attack to inflict a -6 Str penalty for a minute, noncumulative, and you forgo regular damage. No save, though, so it’s not a total writeoff.

·   Whirlwind Attack: This is situational and requires lots of feats to pull off. However, if you’re an Enlarged Duskblade with a Wounding Spiked Chain and full attack channel a Fell Weakening Vampiric Touch, this can pay off quite nicely.


Other:

·   Animal Devotion (CC): Usually a highly recommended feat, though not for the mildly debilitating bite attack you can get here. 1d3 Con damage (Fort negates) just won’t cut it. Red for our purposes.

·   Arcane Thesis (PHB2): For that one, all-powerful debilitation. Not too bad on Ray of Enfeeblement, actually. A Split Empowered Maximized Twinned Ray of Enfeeblement is now 8th level for you and inflicts 2d6+54 points of Str pen. That Great Wyrm Red Dragon you’re fighting is now at Str 1. Your fighter might be able to grapple and pin it. Have fun.

·   Debilitating Spell (HoH): 2/day (4/day with severe taint), you can add either 2 points of Con or 4 points of Wis damage to a damaging spell. Requires you to have at least moderate taint. Waste of a feat.

·   Debilitating Strike (HoH): 2/day (4/day with severe taint), you can add either 2 points of Con or 4 points of Wis damage to a melee attack. Requires you to have at least moderate taint. Similarly, waste of a feat.

·   Drowning Glance (CM): Reserve feat that lets you render a target exhausted for 1 round, fatigued with a Fort save. You’re better off with other Reserve feats.

·   Improved Familiar: Some very good choices, lots of variety. This is good for Duskblades, Hexblades, and generally all Gishes, as the familiar uses your attack and save bonuses as well as half your HP. Lots of options for the debilitator. Special mention for the Eyeball Beholderkin, which can deliver your touch spells at a range. Sweet debilitation options there!

·   Inscribe Rune [item creation] (FRCS): Fix a spell to a surface of your choice (how about a weapons striking bit?). The first creature to touch the surface is targeted by the spell. Endless possibilities, be creative.

·   Metamagic School Focus (CM): So you can more easily apply all the metamagic you want.

·   Natural Spell: You’re a Druid, you already have this. Now you can cast Twinned Empowered Poison while in Dire Bear form.

·   Necropolis Born (): You get, among other useless SLAs, Touch of Fatigue 1/day. Bad. Don’t take.

·   Obtain Familiar (CArc): If you’re an arcane caster without a familiar, you want this. For a debilitator, (pick the snake or) use the familiar to deliver debilitating touch spells.

·   Penetrating Shot (PHB2): Excellent with a Wounding bow, excellent without.

·   Poison Expert (): If poison is your chosen method of debilitating, you might consider this. Still, very, very narrow for the little effect it has.

·   Poison Master (): Why this has to be a second feat escapes me. Even if Poison Expert and Master were rolled into one, it’d be mediocre.

·   Serpent’s Venom (CDiv): Wild Feat that gives you a secondary bite attack, which is poisonous (1d6 Con/1d6 Con, save DC is Con-dependent). Not absolutely horrid, but Druids are usually too feat-strapped for this and have better things to do with their Wild Shape uses.

·   Soul of the North (): Some crappy SLAs, usable 1/day, Chill Touch among them, which isn’t really a prime method of debilitating your opponent or doing anything else really.

·   Venom’s Gift (CC): This Wild Feat works a bit like Serpent’s Venom, but has a much weaker poison effect attached. Bonus points for the funny name (to me as a German native speaker), though! [COMPETITION: whoever first spots this and can explain what I mean gets a cookie. German native speakers excluded!]



How to debilitate: Items


Nonmagical:

Tanglefoot Bag: These things are nasty. As can be guessed from the name, they entangle the target (as a touch attack, to make matters worse). Best used in conjunction with a Silence spell, then hurled against enemy spellcasters. The ability penalty is only the smallest part of this, of course.

Net: Entangle target as a touch attack, but takes an exotic proficiency. Not worth your time.


Potions:

Not much use for these in general, but your DM might let you make oils of all manner of debilitating spells (Ray of Enfeeblement and Ray of Clumsiness come to mind). These might be interesting to apply to a weapon.


Rings:

Spell Storing, Minor/Major: These are very nice in that they let people other than casters inflict debilitating spells.


Rods:

Metamagic Rods: Some of these are good with your debilitating spells, escpecially Empower, Extend, Maximize, Quicken, Chain, and Sculpt.
Also, see weapons for more rods (:-b)


Shields and Armor:

The Spiteful Imp (?): Nice animated buckler that can spit poison 1/day (like the spell with a fixed save DC).
Poison Spike Armor (BoVD): This works like regular armor spikes plus a weak poison (1d3 Str/1d3 Str, DC 16). Not fantastic, but only a +1 price.


Weapons:


Diseased : This is a +1 enchantment that infects struck targets with Filth Fever. A DC 12 save negates, though. Do the math.

Marrowcrushing (BoVD): This +3 enchantment works like a Wounding weapon. Re-read and you’ll understand the coloring.

Spell Storing: We have a winner! This enchantment is just awesome in general, and becomes even more awesome when the weapon holds an ability damaging, draining, or penalizing effect. This is really cheap, too, at the cost of only a +1 enhancement. I’ve seen a fight with a dragon end in round one due to good prep and the Barbarian using a Spell Storing shortsword (guess what spell was stored).

Strength Sapping (BoVD): This is a +2 enchantment which exhausts the target if it fails a Fort save (DC 15). As it works with every hit, this is not bad actually.

Valorous (UE): Deal double damage on a charge. If you deal ability damage with each attack, this is likewise doubled. Also cheap, only +1!

Wounding: This deals 1 point of Con damage on every hit, which is not multiplied on a crit – but probably on hits which deal multiples of your damage (Spirited Charge with a Wounding Lance from a Hasted Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian, anyone?). At the cost of a +2 enhancement, this is not a bad deal. No use against Undead, Plants, Constructs, Elementals and Oozes, though, which limits its usefulness quite a bit.

Dagger of Venom: Not too good for its price, mostly due to the easy save and the 1/day bit.

Kerrenderit Arrows (RoF): +1 Wounding arrows made of ice. These melt if kept exposed for too long (keep them in Ehlonna's Quiver), but are a bit cheaper than regular +1 Wounding arrows. Not bad.

Rapier of Puncturing: Very expensive, it not only is a Wounding weapon but can also be used to deal 1d6 Con damage on a touch attack 3/day. Crit-immunes are immune to this effect, though.

Spear of Impaling (RoF): +1 Wounding Shortspear that gets extra attacks vs. Elves and Dwarves. Much too circumstantial for the great cost (~32,000), and who fights with a Shortspear anyway?

Spectral Dagger (UE): This isn't really a dagger, but a continuous Chill Touch effect. Now Chill Touch is not a great spell even for debilitators, but this is still a great weapon if your damage and debilitation come from other sources: every attack with it is a touch attack, but you can still use it like a weapon (iterative attacks, TWF, the works). Good for Crippling Strike Rogues etc., and at 20,000 gp, you can afford two.

Viper Rod: This is a weapon, although it is crafted as a rod. 1/day, this can add a nasty 1d10 Con poison (easy save at DC 14, though) to all of your attacks with it for 10 min. Not bad, although you have to be evil to use it.

Rod of Withering: This is a weapon, although it is crafted as a rod. This seems to be the be-all, end-all of ability damage. Every single touch attack with this mean little rod deals 1d4 Str and 1d4 Con damage! Only thing to spoil your party is the DC 17 Fort save to negate. Too bad, but this is still a potent weapon well into the mid levels. Especially nice for Sneak Attackers!


Other:

Aroma of Curdled Death: This is a Cloudkill spell in a bottle. Only usable once.

Collar of Venom (BoVD): This collar envenoms all of your natural attacks (1d10 Con/1d10 Con, DC 14). That’s quite potent right there, except for the save DC – and the 50,000 gp price tag.

Collar of Virulent Venom (BoVD): Same as above, except the save DC is 20 now, and the price rises to 138,000 gp. Not worth it in a high level game really.

Dust of Sneezing and Choking: This purportedly cursed item is actually an inhaled poison (DC 15, 2d6 Con/1d6 Con). Even on a successful (!) save, targets in a 20’ spread (!) are stunned for 5d4 rds (!!). Banned in many campaigns as an automatic battle-ender.

Glove of Venom (UD): Use the Poison spell three times per day. Average.

Iron Heart Vest, Ring of the Diamond Mind, Shadow Hands, Stone Dragon Belt, Tiger Claw Bracers: See the Maneuvers section for what you can do with these. Some might be worthwhile, as they're not that expensive.

Slime Pot (BoVD): Homegrown Green Slime! If you’re the least bit creative, this can only lead to hilarity.

Vibrant Purple Prism Ioun Stone: Stores 3 spell levels like a Ring of Spell Storing. Very, very expensive for the little bit of versatility it grants.


Quite a few other cursed items impose penalties, damage or even drain to one or more ability scores. Most of these are very hard to apply to an enemy, though. You might be able to force a Robe of Powerlessness or a Ring of Clumsiness on your opponent if you’re a very good grappler – but if you already have the other guy pinned, what do you need to reduce his ability scores for?

Artifacts and Relics I’ll leave out of this, as there is no reliable way of getting your hands on these.

How to debilitate: Racial Abilities


I’m listing all the creatures in the Monster Manual which have debilitating attacks. Most of these are poisonous, and some have straightforward ability damaging attacks. Quite a few, though, have more circumstantial debilitating powers.

This list is not intended to be very useful to CO, and I can’t possibly list all creatures in all books. This is more an afterthought, intended to show you how many creatures actually rely on debilitating to a greater or lesser degree. If you’re a summoner, you might get some mileage out of this, but be sure to refer to other books, as well.


Allip (MM 10): 1d4 Wis drain (incorporeal touch); Madness (Su): You target the thing with mind control or detect thoughts, you take 1d4 Wis damage.
Angel, Planetar (MM11): Waves of Fatigue (SLA, 3/day), Waves of Exhaustion (SLA, 1/day)
Angel, Solar (MM12): Waves of Fatigue (SLA, at will), Waves of Exhaustion (SLA, 3/day)
Aranea (MM 15): Poison (Ex): DC 13, 1d6Str/2d6 Str
Athach (MM 21): Poison (Ex): DC 22, 1d6 Str/2d6 Str
Beholder, Gauth (MM 26): Ray of Exhaustion (Su): As spell
Chaos Beast (MM 33): Corporeal Instability (Su): 1/rd Wis drain, Fort DC 15 negates
Couatl (MM 37): Poison (Ex): DC 16, 2d4 Str/4d4 Str
Demon, Balor (MM 41): Blasphemy (SLA, at will)
Demon, Bebilith (MM 42): Poison (Ex): DC 24, 1d6 Con/2d6 Con
Demon, Hezrou (MM 44): Blasphemy (SLA, 3/day)
Demon, Nalfeshnee (MM 45): Feeblemind (SLA, at will)
Demon, Quasit (MM 46): Poison (Ex): DC 13, 1d4 Dex/2d4 Dex
Devil, Bearded (MM 52): Beard (Ex): Disease (devil chills), DC 16, 1d4 days, 1d4 Str, needs 3 successful saves to stop
Devil, Bone (MM 52): Poison (Ex): DC 20, 1d6 Str/2d6 Str
Devil, Imp (MM 56): Poison (Ex): DC 13, 1d4 Dex/2d4 Dex
Devil, Pit Fiend (MM 57): Disease (Ex): Devil chills, DC 27, 1d4 days, 1d4 Str, needs 3 successful saves to stop; Poison (Ex): DC 27, 1d6 Con/death; Blasphemy (SLA, at will)
Devourer (MM 58): Ray of Enfeeblement (SLA, at will
Dire Rat (MM 64): Disease (Ex): Filth Fever, DC 12, 1d3 days, 1d3 Dex plus 1d3 Con
Dire Weasel (MM 65): Blood Drain (Ex): 1d4 Con damage 1/rd, automatic while attached
Dragon, Gold (MM 84): Breath Weapon (Su): 1 Str damage/age category, Fort negates, every 1d4 rds
Dragonne (MM 89): Roar (Su): Exhaustion (within 30’) or Fatigue (within 120’), Will DC 15 negates, every 1d4 rds
Drider (MM 89): Poison (Ex): DC 16, 1d6 Str/1d6 Str
Ettercap (MM 106): Poison (Ex): DC 15, 1d6 Dex/2d6 Dex
Formian, Warrior (MM 109): Poison (Ex): DC 14, 1d6 Str/1d6 Str
Formian, Taskmaster (MM 109): Poison (Ex): DC 15, 1d6 Str/1d6 Str
Formian, Myrmarch (MM 110): Poison (Ex): DC 20, 2d6 Dex/2d6 Dex
Ghost (MM 117): Corrupting Gaze (Su): 1d4 Cha damage, Fort negates; Draining Touch (Su): 1d4 damage to any one ability, no save; Horrific Appearance (Su): 1d4 Str, 1d4 Dex, and 1d4 Con damage, Fort negates, successful save makes immune for 24 hours
Ghoul/Ghast (MM 119): Disease (Su): Ghoul Fever, DC 12 or 15, 1 day, 1d3 Con plus 1d3 Dex
Gibbering Mouther (MM 126): Blood Drain (Ex): 1d4 Con damage, automatic after swallowing, no save
Golem, Iron (MM 136): Breath Weapon (Su): poisonous gas, DC 19, 1d4 Con/3d4 Con
Hag, Green (MM 143): Weakness (Su): Touch attack, 2d4 Str damage, Fort DC 16 negates
Hag, Sea (MM 144): Horrific Appearance (Su): 2d6 Str, Fort DC 13 negates, successful save makes immune for 24 hours
Hag, Covey (MM 144): Bestow Curse (SLA, 3/day)
Half-Fiend (MM 147): Poison (SLA, 3/day) if 7+ HD; Contagion (SLA, 1/day) if 9+ HD, Blasphemy (SLA, 1/day) if 11+ HD
Howler (MM 154): Howl (Ex): 1 Wis damage after 1 hour, Will DC 12 negates
Inevitable, Zelekhut (MM 160): Lesser Geas (SLA, 1/week)
Lamia (MM 165): Wisdom Drain (Su): Touch attack, 1d4 Wis drain, no save
Lycanthrope, Wererat (MM 171): Disease (Ex): Filth Fever, DC 12, 1d3 days, 1d3 Dex plus 1d3 Con
Medusa (MM 180): Poison (Ex): DC 14, 1d6 Str/2d6 Str
Mephit, Magma (MM 183): Pyrotechnics (SLA, 1/day)
Mummy (MM 190): Mummy Rot (Su): Disease, DC 16, 1 min, 1d6 Con plus 1d6 Cha
Naga, Guardian (MM 192): Poison (Ex): DC 19, 1d10 Con/1d10 Con, can be spit as ranged touch attack
Naga, Spirit (MM 192): Poison (Ex): DC 18, 1d8 Con/1d8 Con
Naga, Water (MM 193): Poison (Ex): DC 17, 1d8 Con/1d8 Con
Night Hag (MM 193): Disease (Ex): Demon fever, DC 18, 1 day, 1d6 Con; Ray of Enfeeblement (SLA, at will); Dream Haunting (Su): 1 Con drain, 1/night, no save
Nightshade, Nightcrawler (MM 195): Poison (Ex): DC 22, 2d6 Str/2d6 Str; Contagion (SLA, at will)
Nightshade, Nightwalker (MM 196): Contagion (SLA, at will)
Nightshade, Nightwing (MM 197): Contagion (SLA, at will)
Otyugh (MM 204): Disease (Ex): Filth Fever, DC 12, 1d3 days, 1d3 Dex plus 1d3 Con
Phase Spider (MM 207): Poison (Ex): DC 17, 1d8 Con/1d8 Con
Purple Worm (MM 211): Poison (Ex): DC 25, 1d6 Str/2d6 Str
Rast (MM 213): Blood Drain (Ex): 1 Con damage/rd while grappling
Roper (MM 215): Weakness (Ex): Ranged touch attack, 2d8 Str damage, Fort DC 18 negates
Shadow/Greater Shadow (MM 221): Touch attack, 1d6 or 1d8 Str damage, no save
Slaad, Blue (MM 229): Slaad Fever (Su): Disease, DC 18, 1 day, 1d3 Dex plus 1d3 Cha
Sphinx, Androsphinx (MM 232): Roar (Su): 2d4 Str damage [for 2d4 rounds, so I assume it’s not actual damage but a penalty], Fort DC 19 negates, functions only when the Androsphinx roars for the third time in the same encounter
Sprite, Grig (MM 235): Pyrotechnics (SLA, 3/day)
Stirge (MM 236): Blood Drain (Ex): 1d4 Con damage/rd, automatic while attached
Swarm, Centipede (MM 238): Poison (Ex): DC 13, 1d4 Dex/1d4 Dex
Swarm, Hellwasp (MM 238): Poison (Ex): DC 18, 1d6 Dex/1d6 Dex
Swarm, Rat (MM 239): Disease (Ex): Filth Fever, DC 12, 1d3 days, 1d3 Dex plus 1d3 Con
Swarm, Spider (MM 240): Poison (Ex): DC 11, 1d3 Str/1d3 Str
Vampire (MM 250): Blood Drain (Ex): 1d4 Con drain/rd, automatic while pinning
Vampire Spawn (MM 253): Blood Drain (Ex): 1d4 Con drain/rd, automatic while pinning
Wraith/Dread Wraith (MM 258): Constitution Drain (Su): 1d6 Con drain, Fort DC 14 negates; or 1d8 Con drain, Fort DC 25 negates
Wyvern (MM 259): Poison (Ex): DC 17, 2d6 Con/2d6 Con
Yuan-Ti, Halfblood (MM 264): Poison (Ex): DC 14, 1d6 Con/1d6 Con
Yuan-Ti, Abomination (MM 264): Poison (Ex): DC 17, 1d6 Con/1d6 Con
Snake, Viper (MM 280): Poison (Ex): DC 10–14 (varies by size), 1d6 Con/1d6 Con
Giant Bee (MM 284): Poison (Ex): DC 11, 1d4 Con/1d4 Con, once in a lifetime
Giant Wasp (MM 285): Poison (Ex): DC 14, 1d6 Dex/1d6 Dex
Monstrous Centipede (MM 286): Poison (Ex): DC 10–23, 1 Dex/1 Dex to 2d6 Dex/2d6 Dex (varies by size)
Monstrous Scorpion (MM 287): Poison (Ex): DC 12–33, 1 Con/1 Con to 1d10 Con/1d10 Con (varies by size)
Monstrous Spider (MM 288): Poison (Ex): DC 10–28, 1d2 Str/1d2 Str to 2d8 Str/2d8 Str (varies by size)

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Re: Hatchet Job Port Thread
« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2013, 12:30:14 AM »
Pseudoclasses Handbook and the ghost levels theory

by AtomicKitKat

I'm reposting this before web.archive deletes it(as has happened to one or two other old threads I tried digging up). Bear in mind that I'm going to format for readability rather than style. More or less the same as the original text, with minor typo fixes where I spotted them while adding font/spoiler tags.

As originally posted by Antarx on Gleemax.

Introduction and Gratefulnesses

If you find grammar, orthography or concordance failures in the text (I'm sure there's a lot), please PM me.

Thanks to everyone that is helping to make this handbook, with advices, suggestions or simply posting comments:
archerpwr, awaken_D_M_golem, BowenSilverclaw1986, CubeKnight, Green_eyes, Grundle, JanusJones, jameswilliamogle, JaronK, kreesteeyan, LeAvantgardeNoire, Nanshork, Surreal, Tshern

Thank you very much to all.

The PseudoClasses Handbook
Last update 12-19-07

What is a Pseudoclass?
Quote:
Quote
Originally Posted by The_Shaman View Post
Finally, another edition of "PrCs and you: a ranger's guide to not being a ranger:"
That quote made me think about building a iconic ranger without any levels in ranger class. Then, I started to search alternative class features, and I found that is possible to make it.

Example:
We can use the barbarian variant from UA (lose rage, gain FE and combat style) and the dungeonscape alternative class features (lose trapsense, gain trapkiller) to build a ranger that can scout in advance, and with most of the ranger classical features. This is what I called PseudoRanger

So, in resume, a PseudoClass is a X class variant, that allow us to roleplay it as if it were another different Y class.

Nomenclature:
X Pseudo Y
X is the actual class and
Y is the emulated class.

The previous example was a Barbarian PseudoRanger


Kinds of Pseudoclasses
From my point of view, there's 3 kinds of Pseudoclasses

   1. Classes that, with the proper changes, allow us to use them as a typical member from some other class, WITH THE SAME FEATURES.
   2. Classes that, with the proper changes, allow us to use them as a typical member from some other class, WITH EQUIVALENT FEATURES.
   3. Races, feats, magic items, etc, that allow us to mimic class features.

Example:

   1. The previous Barbarian has ranger features (F.E, and combat style) and can qualify for certains feats or PrC. So, this barbarian is a PseudoRanger type 1
   2. A bard with nature skills as class skills can be ROLEPLAYED as a Ranger. He can introduce himself as a ranger, and the can mimic his features (use a bow, cast healing spells, calm animals, hide, spot, track, etc) and debilities (he may refuse heavier armours than light armour), but hardly can qualify for feats or PrC. So, this bard is a PseudoRanger type 2
   3. The celestial template (gives a smite evil feature) allows us to qualify for Ascetic Knight. The Improved unarmed strike feat allow us to qualify for the Ascetic Hunter feat. Both examples works no matters what is your base class. That template and feat are from type 3



Why is a Pseudoclass interesting?
Because some features stacks.
Example:

    * A Barbarian Pseudoranger (as described in the example above) 1 - Ranger 1 - Paladin PseudoRanger 1 (described below) has 3 Favoured enemies... at level 3.
    * A Barbarian PseudoRanger 2 - Ranger 2, has 2 favoured enemies, and both weapon styles.

Also, sometimes is easier for a player, to use a Pseudoclass to improve some features rather than picking some PrC. Pseudoclasses are more flexible, since most alternate features are optional, and have no requisites for entry.

Type 1 and 3 are the "cheese stuff" and can be used to make good combos.

The benefits from type 2 are less evident (mostly for role-playing purposes, like this), but can be equally useful.
Example:
Lets imagine that the bard we used to explain type 2 fights a evil sorcerer. The sorcerer see the bard and, wrongly, he supposes that he faces a ranger, so he decides to use spells with will save, believing than that is is weak save.

In any case, is an interesting option for:

    * Qualify for some PrC at early levels
    * Qualify for some feats
    * Improve class features beyond the standard possibilities
    * Make your own multiclass character, but removing weak class features. (for example, the previous swift hunter doest have a weak animal companion, or weak spells.)
    * Create iconic characters (like Aragorn, Robin Hood, Drizzt D'Urden, etc) from a different approach
    * Make extremely cool characters.


Ghost levels theory
Another interesting question.

What happens if a Barbarian PseudoRanger level 1 - Scout level 3 picks the Swift hunter feat? This build meets the pre requisites.

There's 2 possibilities, (at DM discretion)

    * The Barbarian levels ARE considered ranger levels.
    * The Barbarian levels AREN´T considered ranger levels.The effective ranger level of the build is considered 0, and the barbarian levels, doesn't count.


In the first case, you can augment your barbarian levels, and gain the skirmish damage... not so bad for a character with a +20 to his base movement rate.

In the second case, the barbarian is not considered a ranger. But since you have 3 levels in scout, that gives another Favoured enemy. 2 at character level 4.

And what about a Paladin who picks Improved unarmed strike feat and Ascetic Knight feat? The 2nd feat don't state that you must have levels in monk to improve your unarmed damage die.


In resume, if we fill the requisites, we can pick some feats that allow us to stack levels from 2 different classes to gain or improve some features.
But if we fool the requisites, If we doesn't have any levels in one of the "supposedly required" class... we will gain a effective level 0 in that class. Since levels in both classes stacks... we gain a class feature, that works as if our base class levels were levels in the other class. We are gaining "ghostly levels" in the second class.

Example:
Supposing that the previous character was a Paladin 15, then he has the same unarmed damage die as a Monk 15. He has 15 "ghostly" monk levels, for unarmed damage die purpose.


Handbook notes:

    * Note 1:
      To save space, I'm not going to write every possible combination. I'm goint to add each class to his closest concept. If you are searching for a particular feature, also check other classes with that feature.
      For example: Both druids and rangers have wild empathy. Both clerics and paladin have an alignment aura. If you wants to get wild empathy or alignment aura, please check both Pseudodruids and PseudoRangers or Pseudoclerics and PseudoPaladins

      I know that this way is not the optimal, but I there's a lot of possibilities, and add every combination would be too much work and, even if I'll try it, I can't assure that I would not miss some of them. Sorry

    * Note 2:
      This tread focus his attention into
          o Level dependant class features and ways to improve them. (Without picking levels in the class that gives that feature... otherwise is cheating )
          o Builds (including class levels, races, magic items, etc) that can be used as another entirely different class.

      I'm not covering PrC in this guide. The PrC list is huge, and it would be a very hard work (but if anyone want's to make a "Pseudo Prestige Class handbook", he has my aprobation )
      Also, for those who only want to pick some X feature that is not level dependant, I suggest to check first the Surreal List of stuff. It would be easier.


Pseudoclasses List:

PseudoBarbarian

Barbarians

    * Type 1
          o Druid
            Suggested changes:
            UA: lose animal companion, spontaneous casting - Gain rage
            More optional changes:
            Comments:
            A strange variant. you can't cast spells while raging, but can be interesting for a Master of many forms build.

          o Half-Orc Paragon
            Suggested changes:
            none
            Comments:

    * Type 2
    o
    * Type 3
          o Races with Rage


PseudoBards

Bards

    * Type 1
    * Type 2
      These classes fill the same roles as bards: fighting, support, and (optional) party faceman. Some of them have auras that can mimic the bardic music effects, and are capable of heal some amount of damage.
          o Dragon Shaman
            Suggested changes:
            None
            More optional changes:
            None
            Comments:

          o Incarnate
            Suggested changes:
            None
            More optional changes:
            None
            Comments:

          o Marshall
            Suggested changes:
            None
            More optional changes:
            None
            Comments:

    * Type 3
o


PseudoDruids

Druids

    * Type 1
          o Bard
            Suggested changes:
            UA: Lose bardic knowledge, Inspire (all) - Gain animal companion, wild empathy.
            More optional changes:
            UA: Savaje bard (change spells)
            Comments:
            This class is a bad trade. It has a lower HD, less spells (the list is still limited to level 6) and lacks of any other druid features.
            But have 6 sp per level, and counts as full druid for animal companion purposes. Can be useful for multi class rangers, but I think that the druid is strictly better.

          o Totemist
            Suggested changes:
            None
            More optional changes:
            None
            Comments:
            Wild empathy is the only class feature in common, but otherwise, they fill the same niche.

    * Type 2
    * Type 3
o


PseudoFighters

Fighters

    * Type 1
          o Rogue
            Suggested changes:
            UA: lose SA - Gain bonus feats.
            More optional changes:
            Comments:
            This class is the skilled version of the fighter. It has average BAB, but can be useful for dipping.

          o Psychic Warrior
            Suggested changes:
            None
            Comments:
            It's a pity that this class can't take weapon specialization.

          o Warblade
            Suggested changes:
            None
            Comments:
            This class can get fighter exclusive feats, but is treated as a fighter 2 levels lower.

    * Type 2
    o
    * Type 3
o


PseudoHexblades
Hexblades

    * Type 1
    * Type 2
          o Ranger
            Suggested changes:
            CityScape WE: lose animal companion - Gain familiar
            More optional changes:
            Comments:
            Both have full BAB, both cast a small amout of spells, both have a "familiar"
            Nothing else in comon. But I think that they must be a good challenge for each other.
    * Type 3
o


PseudoPaladin
Paladin


    * Type 1
          o Cleric
            Suggested changes:
            UA: lose turn undead - Gain Smite evil
            More optional changes:
            CC: Lose a 4º level slot- Gain a pool of healing
            Comments:
            A full spellcasting paladin. The pool of healing is a bad substitute for lay on hands, but can mimic it (although is not necessary at all... cleric can heal spontaneously)

          o Soulborn
            Suggested changes:
            None
            More optional changes:
            None
            Comments:
            The incarnum auras are much like the aura of good, and they also have a smite ability. In fact, Soulborns can mimic all the paladin variants from UA.

    * Type 2
          o Dragon Shaman
            Suggested changes:
            None
            Comments:
            Touch of vitality is almost the same as lay on hands. I don't know why they have different names. Also, both paladin and DS have a aura effect.

    * Type 3
          o Races with Smite evil
            Celestial template (MM)
            Half celestial template (MM)
            Killoren (RotW)


PseudoRangers
Rangers


Rangers are a strange mix of rogue, druid and figther. Some player wants to enhace some aspect of the class, dipping here or there.

    * Type 1
          o Barbarian
            Suggested changes:
            UA: Lose rage - Gain F.E. and combat style (bow)
            Dungeoscape: Lose trapsense - Gain Trapkiller
            More optional changes:
            C. Champion: Lose fast movement - Gain Pounce
            Comments: We all know that 2 weapon fighting is a sub-optimal route. Is better a 2 handed weapon. In that case, go for barbarian. It can be used to scout and find traps with the survival skill, and is very strong (d12 hd and DR)

            This class can use a bow and a 2 handed weapon (with power attack stuff)
            for Swift hunters, the move bonus can be interesting, but if not, take the CC alternate feature. Why to dip in barbarian for pounce, if you can make it your base class?
            Have you ever wanted a spell-less, companion-less ranger? Pick a barbarian.

          o Druid
            Suggested changes:
            UA: Lose wildshape - Gain Wis to AC, Fast movement, F.E, track and swift tracker.
            More optional changes:
            UA: Lose animal companion, penalty to wild empathy, spontaneus casting - Gain Rage, tireless rage, fast movement,
            Comments: Do you want a full spellcaster ranger? this class is for you.
            This Pseudoranger is very nice to enter Harper Paragon PrC (to get F.E. Evil, and full spellcasting.)
            If you want more martial power, you can trade your companion for the rage ability. But note that you can not cast spells while rage, so may be not so good for you.

          o Paladin
            Suggested changes:
            UA: Lose lay on hands, turn undead - Gain F.E.
            More optional changes:
            U.A: Paladin of freedom
            Comments: Awesome class. Try to get F.E. evil, and "smite them all".
            The paladin of freedom variant is suggested to add more ranger flavour, but there aren't other kind of reasons to get it.

    * Type 2
          o Hexblade
            Suggested changes:
            PHB II: Lose familiar - Gain a spectral panther
            More optional changes:
            Comments: This is not exactly a ranger (I think that is the antithesis of him), but can be a good nemesis for the party ranger.
            If you are a "twins-scimitar-drow" player, take a look at this class. It comes with a panther.

          o Rogue
            Suggested changes:
            UA: Replace skills with nature oriented skills, gain HipS, camouflage.
            More optional changes:
            UA: lose SA - Gain bonus feats.
            Comments:
            Do you want a 2 weapon killing machine, but with nature flavour? Pick a rogue.
            Also, from time to time, any character needs more skill points and feats. If you want both, dip here, and gain 8+int sp and bonus feats. Also, this class can take weapon specialisation... hmmm.

          o Swashbuckler
            Suggested changes:
            PHBII: Lose doge bonuses - Gain shield bonuses while fighting with 2 weapons.
            More optional changes:
            Comments:
            A nice class for dipping if you want a 2 weapon warrior.
    * Type 3
o


PseudoRogues
Rogues


    * Type 1
          o Fighter
            Suggested changes:
            UA: lose bonus feats - Gain SA
            More optional changes:
            Drow underdark: lose heavy armour and tower shield competence - Gain bonus to initiative, and Dex to damage.
            Comments:
            The perfect 2 weapon killing machine. Great for dipping. If you want that class as your main class and you want to do something with your skill points, get Able learner and Nymph kiss feats.

          o Psychic Rogue
            Suggested changes:
            None
            Comments:
            Little to say. This class is a rogue with psionic powers.
          o Swordsage
            Suggested changes:
            none
            More optional changes:
            none
            Comments:
            A skilled warrior, with lots of resources. Even if is not a trapfinder, you can get some of the rogue damage output by picking Shadow blade feat to add Dex to damage, and the assassin stance. You will net a nice +2d6 + dex to damage.
    * Type 2
    o
    * Type 3
          o Races with sneak attack
            Marrulurk (Savage Species)
            Greenspawn Sneak (MM IV)



Special mention
Any class

    * Incarnum users
      Comments:
      Due to huge amount of soulmelds and the variety of effects available, those classes can mimic most class features (except maybe spellcasting... but they can mimic spells effects)
      I had added the incarnum classes to the closest core class concept, but still, they are very customizable.
    * Factotum
      Comments:
      This class can mimic nearly any other class.
    * Chameleon
      Comments:
      This PrC can mimic nearly any other class.

Offline Toptomcat

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Re: Hatchet Job Port Thread
« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2013, 12:31:54 AM »
Handbook for Leadership and Army-Making

by Gunhaven

Right then, I couldn't find anything on Google about a handbook dedicated to Leadership and general army making.  So I've decided to make my own.  Any comments, questions, and concerns will be greatly appreciated.

Leadership
First and foremost, it's important to know that Leadership is entirely up to your DM.  You could take all the feats you want, but when it comes down to it the DM can godmode your army.

The Base Feats
Right then, as far as I can find there are two Leadership feats.  The normal Leadership as discussed in DMG page 106 and Undead Leadership as discussed in Libris Mortis page 31.  UL provides a +2 to your leadership score when recruiting undead while providing a -4 for living recruits in addition to the normal benefits of Leadership.
In addition to these feats there are three abilities that grant something similar to Leadership:
The Thrallherd ability from the class with the same name in Extended Psionics Handbook page 153.  Unfortunately, Thrallherd doesn't stack with Leadership and it states that if you have Leadership you lose it.
The class Dread Pirate in Complete Adventure page 39 has a pseudo-Leadership as its level 10 ability that lets you take followers but doesn’t allow one to take a Cohort.
The class Pale Master in Libris Mortis page 47 allows you to have a Undead Cohort in a similar fashion as if you had taken Undead Leadership.
TLDR version: Three Leadership stats (Dread Pirate’s “Pirate King” and Pale Master’s “Undead Cohort”, Undead Leadership Feat and either Leadership Feat or Thrallherd’s Thrallherd).

Boosters
Thanks to the magic that is Crystal Keep, there are several listed feats that improve your Leadership score or provide more followers.  Unfortunately, most of the feats are from Dragon Magazines that I don't have.  The ones that are left in the listing that modify Leadership in any way is just the feat Ecclesiarch from Eberron 52 that increases Leadership Score by 2.
In addition to Crystal Keep the Heroes of Battle introduces Leader Feats.  These four feats improve your followers/cohorts in some way as well as increase your Leadership score by 1.  There is also a feat called Might Makes Right in Races of Faerun page 167 that allows one to add their Strength Modifier to their Leadership Score.
Finally, the prestige classes that I know of that adds Followers are Orc Warlord in Races of Faerun page 184 that multiples the number of followers one can obtain and Dread Pirate in Complete Adventurer page 39 allows one to have a third Leadership score for followers..
For a further reading on modifiers, there are other posts that have discussed items that improve the leadership score.  One such site is this one at Giant in the Playground.
TLDR version: Crystal Keep has feats listed (Feats, 20).  RoF 167 for Str+Cha.  Orc Warlord, Dread Pirate for more Followers.  These Builds.

Putting it all together
Your Leadership Score is based off Charisma and Level (Strength as well if you take Might Makes Right).  Therefore, increasing charisma increases your leadership score.  For 16 points, you can get 18 Charisma starting off.  In addition, a google search provides this post for a way to boost charisma, topping out with a Phrenic Domovoi for +10 Cha at the cost of 2HD and +6 LA.  However, I'm not fully convinced +10 Cha would be worth it for having to take feats 6 levels behind everyone else and will therefore ignore it, sticking with a simple Human.
In addition, you can go Venerable to get an additional +3, dumping every ability increase into charisma, and getting a Cloak of Charisma when possible (According to the table on page 136 at level 9 one could get a Cloak of Charisma +6).
So as a Venerable Human who dumped all his points in Charisma would have 22 Charisma, 24 with the Cloak of Charisma that one can afford at level 6.  Without optimizing it as Akal Saris did, you have a Leadership Score of 13.  This would get you a cohort of a higher level than you (if it wasn’t capped that is) along with 10 Farmers and a Guard.
If you continued to put points into Charisma and getting better Cloaks of Charisma, you would hit Leadership Cap at level 15 without doing anything to increase your Leadership score.  Of course, this is pails in comparison to Akal Saris’s work and hitting the mystical number to get a 6th level follower at level 6.
TLDR version: These Builds.

What does this all mean?
If I'm to believe this post then Orc Warlord 3 and Extra Followers would provide 3 times as many followers as opposed to four times the followers.  I'm also going to take it that I would apply that 3 times multiplier to both of the leadership scores separately.
So let's say you take the Feats Extra Followers (From Heroes of Battle) and Assemble the Horde (Hoping that Crystal Keep is right) and also took three levels of Orc Warlord for the x2 multiplier.  The end result would be x3 followers with an additional level 1 follower for each follower above level 1.
Depending on how silly you want to be depends on if you want to try and convince your DM to apply the modifiers to the extra followers from Assemble the Horde, which are counted after the Modifiers are applied to the Base Numbers to Leadership

TLDR version: General George

Neutral Evil Desert Half-Orc Sorcerer 16/Barbarian 1/Orc Warlord 3
Feats:
1, 3: Free!
6: Leadership
9: Undead Leadership
12: Extra Followers
15: Assemble the Horde
18: Free!
For each Leadership (Leadership score at 31, above Maximum of 25.):
Mods, # of Followers:   1   2   3   4   5   6
Base   135   13   7   4   2   2
Assemble the Horde   163   13   7   4   2   2
Warlord+Extra   405   26   14   8   4   4
WE then Assemble   461   26   14   8   4   4
Assemble then WE   489   26   14   8   4   4


Undead
Animate Dread Warrior
One trick that JaronK points out when dealing with creating an army of undead is the spell Animate Dread Warrior from Unapproachable East (48).  This spell (which is 6th level for Sorcerers and Wizards) allows one to raise any creature that died less than 10 days ago and has less Hit Dice than yourself.  The downside?  It takes 10 minutes and costs 250XP per Hit Dice of the raised warrior.  However, there are ways to get around the XP cost.  JaronK suggests spell stitching it to your minion/self if you're undead.  In addition, you could use a Thought Bottle (From Complete Arcane 150) to store your current experience before rising the undead.
TLDR version: Animate Dread Warrior (UE, 48) to create limitless undead using Thought Bottle (CA, 150) to keep near your EXP total.
Turning
The next trick that JaronK suggests is to use Turning to control your undead.  He points out that if you lower their Turn Resistance or give them Negative Levels (such as with Holy Arrow) to the point that they're counted as 1HD undead, then when the effect wears off they'll still be considered 1HD for your limit.  He states that you could also use some spell that grants temporary control of an undead, Control Undead in this case, then commanded them to hold the Arrows, Rebuke them, then make them drop the Arrows.
TLDR version: Get the undead down to 1HD so you get more.
Animate Dead
Animate Dead is a spell in Player's Handbook that allows one to control 4HD worth of undead per Caster Level.  In addition to this, there is the class Dread Necromancer from Heroes of Horror 85 that has the 8th level ability Undead Mastery that changes Animate Dead to be 4+Cha Mod per Character Level, instead of Caster Level.  Finally, there is the item Rod of Undead Mastery from Libris Mortis 78 that doubles the number of undead you control.  The less painful way to maximize the number of undead you can control with Animate Dead would thus be Dread Necromancer 20 with maxed Charisma.  However, if you could obtain an abnormally high caster level then you could control an abnormally high number of undead.  Luckily for us, there's a list of things that raise it over on the WotC Boards.  In addition, magic9mushroom over at the GitP Forums posted this build:

Necromancer 3/Sorcerer 1/Savage Bard 1/Ur-Priest 3/Yathrinshee 1/Dread Necromancer 1/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge (Ur-Priest/Sublime Chord) 9.

Pre-stacking:

CL for wizard spells: 13
CL for sorcerer spells: 11
CL for Bard spells: 11
CL for Dread Necromancer spells: 11
CL for Sublime Chord spells: 13
CL for Ur-Priest spells: 20

Post-Yathrinshee ability: CL for everything in necromancy = 79

Post-Theurgic Specialist: CL for everything in necromancy = 474.

Going for broke, that 474 Caster Level would mean 3792HD worth of undead under your control, with a Rod of Undead Mastery.
TLDR version: Dread Necromancer if you want less books thrown, Caster Level Stacking if you want more.
Misc
Command Undead
Command Undead is a 2nd level spell for Sorcerers and Wizards.  This spell allows one to control 1 undead for 1 day/level.  If the undead is intelligent then it gets a will save to resist the spell and you must win an opposed charisma check to give it orders that it wouldn’t normally do.  Intelligent undead won’t follow suicidal orders while mindless undead will.  However, if you or your allies that threatens the undead in question will break the spell.  So for one level 2 spell and enough luck you could control a Lich.
TLDR version: Command Undead makes an undead your friend for days at a time.

Roleplay and Miscellaneous Ways
Commander Rating
Found in the Heroes of Battle, page 75, Commander Rating provides bonuses depending on how many followers you have.  These bonuses include: Bonus to Morale checks, Bonus to Intimidate lower officers, Better Information, Commander Aura, and access to previously locked prestige classes.  Each of the Commander Auras has a Rating restriction, along with some other restriction such as Race or Alignment.    You can only have one Commander Aura, unless a Prestige Class provides an additional one.
TLDR version: Get bonuses = how many troops you lead.
Crafting
As Bastian pointed out, no leader of troops would be complete without a squad of Constructs following him as well.  He pointed out that using the guide in his signature one could construct constructs cheaply.  An example of how cheaply one can make their army is presented in the same book (MM4) as the Craft Construct feat.  On page 29, the Clockroach is listed as costing 1075gp and 80xp.  Using a Dedicated Wright to turn them out, the 4.24186875% gold reduction that was provided in the guide, and the liquid pain (because I think it’s the coolest way to do it; you could just thought bottle it.) to meet the experience costs, it’ll take you 46 gold to make each Clockroach.
TLDR version: Bastian’s guide for cheap ways to turn out massive armies of constructs.
Diplomacy
As JaronK points out, Diplomacy is a prime example of what Leadership is.  The ability to influence people’s attitude towards you should be enough to show this, however JaronK also provides some quotes directly from the book that backs up this position.  In addition to the description of the skill, you can use it to make people Helpful and Fanatic towards you.
From PHB, page 72, Helpful means the person “Will take risks to help you”, taking actions such as “Protect, back up, heal, aid”.  In addition, making someone Helpful has no listed duration.  You may be asking what the drawbacks are to making someone willing to take risks for you.  For starters, it takes 1 minute unless you rush it down to 1 full round at a -10 to the check.  In addition to that it takes a 50 on your Diplomacy check to make a Hostile creature helpful, with a 10 point reduction for Unfriendly, Indifferent, and Friendly.
Fanatic is found in the Epic Level Handbook, page 40.  This state provides a +2 morale bonus to Strength and Constitution scores, a +1 morale bonus on Will saves, and a –1 penalty to AC as well as lasting only 1 day plus another day for each point of Charisma Modifier.  The check to make someone a Fanatic is 150 at Hostile, with a 30 point reduction for Unfriendly, Indifferent, and Friendly.  Finally, if the target is Helpful you must succeed on a 50 Diplomacy check.
TLDR version: One minute to change attitude, -10 for Full Round.  High DC that gets better the friendlier they are.  Limitless duration for Helpful, Duration in Days for Fanatic.

Tips and Tricks
Cancer Mage + Might Makes Right
As Solo pointed out, there is a Prestige Class called Cancer Mage in Book of Vile Darkness.  The first level ability allows a Cancer Mage to ignore any (noncosmetic) negative effects of a disease.  In the same book there's a disease called Festering Anger.  This disease grants a cumulative +2 to Strength if you can contract it (You have to remain angry for around a year, then you'll attack the source of the anger or something that reminds you of your anger if you fail a DC22 Will Save).  So what one could do is take the first level of Cancer Mage and then get Festering Anger and get an arbitrarily high Strength score.  Then you could take Might Makes Right and have an arbitrarily high Leadership score.  However unless you take Epic Leadership you'll be capped at 25.  Which brings me to the next fun bit...
TLDR version:  Cancer Mage (BoVD, 52) + Festering Anger (BoVD, 30) + Enough Time = Infinite Strength.
Epic Leadership
Epic Leadership requires the person to have 25 Charisma, 25 Leadership Score, and Leadership before taking it.  This means that if General George or any other character wanted to take it, they could easily meet the requirements before reaching Epic Levels, however as snakeman830 pointed out you can only take it if you're an Old Dragon or over level 20.  If we combine this feat with the Cancer Mage, then we can have any number of followers that we desire.  An example build could be something like:
TLDR version: Angry Adam

Neutral Evil Earth Kobold Sorcerer 19/Cancer Mage 1
Stats (25 point buy, -2 Str, -2 Con because of Earth Kobold):
Str: 11, Dex: 10, Con: 10, Int: 13, Wis: 13, Cha: 20 (Boring I know, but Strength and Charisma are the only two that I'll be caring about right now)
Stats at 20, before Shenanigans:
Str: 16 (+5 from Levels), Dex: 10, Con: 10, Int: 13, Wis: 13, Cha: 26 (+6 Cloak of Charisma)
Feats:
1: Great Fortitude, Toughness (Flaw: Shaky)
3: Poison Immunity
6: Leadership
9: Undead Leadership
12: Extra Followers
15: Might Makes Right
18: Epic Leadership
Cohorts and Followers getting Leadership
At Leadership Score 21, the person taking Leadership is able to get a 6th level Follower.  This Follower could then take Leadership and if it's Leadership score is high enough it can take a 6th level Follower.  This cycle can continue until your DM throws a book at you (if he didn't because you took Leadership in the first place)  In addition to Followers taking Leadership, your Cohorts can as well.  This will cause the number of followers you have to rise exponentially.  But first, how can one get to 21 Leadership at level 6?  Luckily, the post that had the Leadership boosting items contained two builds that reached Max Leadership.  These builds can be found here.  In a nutshell, you can either be an Undead Human (Boosting Charisma and taking the feat from Eberron) or an Orc Warlord (Boosting both Strength and Charisma).  Both builds also involve taking Marshal as your 6th level and switching the feat by taking Skill Focus (Diplomacy) beforehand.
TLDR version: Make your 6th level followers these guys. 
Followers
Olo points out that if you give 20ish followers Mercantile Background (From Player's Guide Faerun, 41) that you would be able to sell your items at 75% of the cost as opposed to 50% as well as buy items at a 25% of the cost (once per day for each of them).  In addition, there is this thread at RPG.net.  Also, plenty of people have pointed out Dragonfire Inspiration is a good choice.  This thread lists effects that increase Inspire Courage (and by extension DFI).
TLDR version: Bards with DFI.  20 Level 1 Followers with Mercantile Background (PGtF, 41) for more money.
White Raven Maneuvers
Found in the Tomb of Battle, White Raven deals with making you a better leader.  JaronK points out several quotes from the branch while Senevri points out the last maneuver.  This bad boy, called War Master's Charge and on page 94, causes all allies within 30 feet (at the beginning of your turn) and yourself to charge a target as a full round action (immediate action for your allies).  Your charge attack deals an extra 50 points of damage while each of your allies deal an extra 25 points of damage.  In addition you get a cumulative +2 bonus for each person who participated in the charge.  If that wasn't good enough, the opponent is stunned if you and an ally hit it.  For example, you have 9 followers in a 30 foot radius (same distance from the target so we don't have to deal with distance from said target).  You and your 9 followers get a +20 Attack, in addition to the normal bonuses.  If that wasn't good enough you get an additional 50 points of damage and your followers do an additional 25 points of damage or 275 bonus damage.
TLDR version: War Master's Charge (ToB, 94) = Awesome.

Closing Comments and Credits
Solo for the Cancer Mage + Might Makes Right
Snakeman830 for pointing out the errors in my ways with Epic Leadership.
JaronK for his excellent topic on Leadership Mechanics in D&D
Olo Demonsbane for the Mercantile Background trick.
Senevri for the War Master's Charge.
Bastian for the cost reduction guide and suggestion on making constructs to boost your army size.
RUMBLETiGER over at RPG.net for the contributions to the thread at that site.
Akal Saris of GitP for the 6th level maxed Leadership
Sejs of EN World for the D&D Fun with Math
jktrondarr of the WotC Boards for the Templates with Charisma.
Mistwell over at the WotC boards for the compilation of Inspire Courage boosters (and by extension Dragonfire Inspiration).

Offline Toptomcat

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Re: Hatchet Job Port Thread
« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2013, 12:32:53 AM »
The Bloodlines Handbook: Balanced Interpretation & Implementation

by PlzBreakMyCampaign

The Bloodlines Handbook: Balanced Interpretation & Implementation
Everything you ever wanted to know about bloodlines and why some do not correctly use them.

[sexy image]

What? Too literal for you?

We will know we have succeeded in a balanced use of bloodlines when: Given our reading of Bloodlines we would, if allowed, use their slight boost for any character. Like flaws, I see a small be steady gain to be made to most any build so long as we temper our reading of Bloodlines.



Straight from the sources (with my bolding for mechanics and italics for intent):
Quote from: SRD:
Over the course of his career, a character with a bloodline becomes more powerful than one without a bloodline. Because the power gain is gradual over a span of twenty levels, a static level adjustment doesn't truly reflect this difference. Instead, a bloodline character must take one or more levels of "bloodline" at various points in his career, as noted on Table: Bloodline Levels. Before a character with a bloodline reaches the indicated character level, he must take one class level of "bloodline." Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).

If the character does not take a class level of bloodline before reaching the character level indicated on the table, he gains no further bloodline traits and must take a 20% penalty on all future XP gains. As soon as he meets the minimum bloodline level, he gains all bloodline abilities due him according to his character level, and the XP penalty no longer applies.

For example, A 1st-level character with a major bloodline (silver dragon) receives a +2 bonus on Sense Motive checks as a bloodline trait. When he reaches 2nd character level, he gains the Alertness feat as a bloodline trait. Before he reaches 3rd character level, he must take a level of bloodline in order to continue gaining bloodline traits. if he reaches 3rd character level and has no bloodline levels, he does not gain the bloodline trait due him at 3rd character level (Strength +1) and must take a 20% reduction on all future XP gains. If he later meets the minimum required bloodline levels, he gains his 3rd-level trait at that time (as well as any other traits he may have failed to receive for not taking his bloodline level right away), and the XP reduction no longer applies to future gains. Before reaching his 6th character level, he must have taken two levels of bloodline in order to keep gaining bloodline traits. If he takes his third bloodline level before reaching 12th character level, he becomes eligible to gain all the traits of his bloodline (as they become available when he reaches new character levels).

A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features. It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks. Levels of bloodline never result in XP penalties for multiclass characters.

Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected.

If a character has levels in two or more classes in addition to his bloodline levels, each class gains the benefit of adding the bloodline levels when calculating abilities.

Interpretations of the bold and italicized features in consecutive order:
Quote from: Interpretations:
The overall intent is supposed to be a slow BUT REAL gain.

The bloodline penalty for all these tasty abilities is not an LA.

The bloodline level is RIGHT BEFORE (not anytime before or we could take all 3 as level 0, 1, and 2 for only a 3000xp loss...) the 3rd, 6th, or 12th level

If they mean at why do they say 'before'? because it is RIGHT BEFORE the actual level 3/6/12 class levels.

no HD, bab, saves, features... its not an ECL class. And the 'it counts as a normal class level' is ONLY for skill rank purposes, NOT ECL

We only have Bloodline level-dependent gains for abilities that are character abilities. So we first categorize what abilities get boosted by the total effect on the character, not by division of the class levels.

The 'each class' part is for classes that are wildly different (like barb and rogue), not for a base class that stacks with a class ability. Remember the above rule and look at the examples - they are not 15 instances of animal companion classes but rather completely seperate true-multiclassing.

Now to check our interpretations against the examples:
Quote from: SRD:
For example, a 2nd-level sorcerer with a major bloodline takes a bloodline level when earns enough XP to advance in level. He is treated as a 3rd-level spellcaster for the purpose of spell durations, caster level checks, and so forth. But he doesn't gain a 3rd-level sorcerer's spells per day or spells known.

Similarly, the stunning attacks of a 3rd-level monk with one bloodline level have a save DC equal to 12 (10 + one-half class level) plus her Wisdom modifier, since the bloodline level is treated as if it were a monk class level when calculating the save DC. A 3rd-level monk/3rd-level sorcerer with two bloodline levels would be treated as a 5th-level spellcaster and a 5th-level monk for determining level-based abilities.

And now the FAQ and its examples:
Quote from: FAQ:
What class features do my character’s bloodline levels (from Unearthed Arcana) stack with? Do they stack with only one class or with all my classes? Do they stack with other class levels for the purpose of meeting prerequisites?

   Your bloodline levels stack with your normal class levels “when calculating any character ability based on . . . class levels” (Unearthed Arcana, page 19). The key word here is “calculate”—it means when you use the level as part of some mathematical determination of the class feature’s power or uses. Abilities that say “add your class level” count, but abilities that say “a character of level X gains this effect” don’t.
   Examples from the Player’s Handbook where bloodline levels would stack with normal class levels include the bard’s bardic knowledge and uses of bardic music per day; the cleric and paladin’s effective turning level; the druid and ranger’s wild empathy; the druid’s HD limit for wild shape; the monk’s wholeness of body, abundant step, diamond soul, quivering palm, and empty body; the paladin’s smite evil and lay on hands; and perhaps most importantly, caster level.
   Many class features improve as you gain levels but aren’t specifically calculated with class level. A rogue’s sneak attack, for example, improves at a fixed rate, but it doesn’t specifically use your class level to calculate its value in the way that the abilities listed above do. The same is true of a monk’s unarmed damage, AC bonus, and unarmored speed bonus, of a barbarian’s number of rages per day, and so on. Similarly, it doesn’t add to the power of your animal companion, familiar, or special mount.
   Your bloodline levels never actually grant you new class features. A 2nd-level bard with one bloodline level doesn’t gain inspire competence (although he may use his bardic music three times per day).
   Your bloodline levels stack with all of your class levels for this purpose. A 2nd-level cleric/2nd-level druid with one bloodline level has a caster level of 3rd for both classes, turns undead as a 3rd-level cleric, and adds +3 (plus his Charisma modifier) to wild empathy checks just as a 3rd-level druid.
   Bloodline levels don’t stack with class levels for the purpose of meeting prerequisites (such as the minimum fighter level for selecting Weapon Specialization).



Lets lay out the stacking basics:
1) None of the examples lay out a complete and complicated implementation of a major bloodlines in a highly multiclasses (and multi-prestige classed) build.

2) Nevertheless, the examples do mention slightly multiclassed builds. Therefore this is the implied application of the text in question. When the FAQ reiterates bloodlines stacking "with all your class levels" it means specifically that the bloodlines 3 level advancement applies to every level-calculated ability your character has from class levels.

3) So if we keep track of the stacking by each ability per character rather than by each level that grants or Prc that stacks with a base classes' ability, how does this make things better? Because instead of a rebuke-based cleric who dipped into 5 rebuke-stacking Prc's gaining +18 to max HD of a creature he can rebuke, he only gains +3 because the ability is only gained from one actual class - he only has one rebuke undead ability. Now if said cleric were a dread necromancer/cleric multiclasser he would have two rebuke undead abilities and they would each gain +3 - just like the core examples.



Now that the stacking issues seem resolved, what about when and how we take bloodline levels?
1) Though the primary source all uses the word "before", all the examples seem to place the timing of the taking of the bloodline levels immediately before 3, 6, or 12. I counter that they meant 'immediately before' meaning that one takes the level after level 2/5/11 but before you take your normal class level at 3/6/12 after the bloodline level at 3/6/12.

2) 'What's this, two levels of 3, 6, and 12?' Yes, because "Class levels of 'bloodline' do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does." Since the ECL does not change after the bloodline level the character is free to take a real class level that will put ECL up to 3/6/12. But upon gaining the virtual Bloodline levels, we STILL have to get again all the experience to go to class levels 3/6/12. This forces a Bloodlines character who wants to go from class level 2 to class level 3 actually pays for that level 3 xp twice. This counts as the 'cost' of the levels and the reason they are not free (since they don't add to ECL).

3) 'I've got you now! This makes the bloodlines table unbalance minor and intermediate bloodlines in favor of the almost-as-XP-costly major bloodline.' Well that depends. WotC didn't realize that experience is a river. If they did its possible the table is wrong (a small copy and paste error on a table happens often). UA doesn't have its own errata so we can't be sure. I'm fine with having the current, RAW 'go for the gold!' sort of pattern to encourage major bloodlines. Note that changing the table doesn't change the fact that the experience is a river. If you want more incremented costs, feel free to house rule the table as:
Code:
Table: Bloodline Levels
Bloodline Level Bloodline Strength
   Minor    Intermediate    Major
1st    3rd   3rd       3rd
2nd    n/a    6th       6th
3rd    n/a    n/a       12th

4) It's been brought up by keener rule-abusers than me (okay fine, I don't really try to abuse the rules... ::hangs head in shame:: ) that by cross referencing the XP tables, the bloodline levels (between whatever ECL) should be nearly free. Paying 1 xp will get you to the next true level, since there is no rule stating you can't use the same XP for two purposes. We all know that rule should exist. It is my opinion that using such abuse will stain you and your DM's opinion of an otherwise fascinating, balanced and flavorful system.


Other Thoughts:
1 Its no suprise that the Buyoff (which also uses a 3x formula for when it can act) is in the same book. Both are systems to even out large static gains. Both also use large XP penalties to make them work (bloodlines just uses the confusing term 'level' to help clarify its calculation boostings).

2 Just like Weapons of Legacy, the tools are given to the player to encourage them to create their own personalized Bloodlines. Just like WoL, if all we were allowed to choose from were the set ones, no one would ever use them.



The SRD on creating your own bloodline (Just like Weapon's of Legacy, its only really tasty when you can "Have it your way")
Quote from: SRD:
Bloodline traits fall into four categories.
Ability Boost
You gain a permanent +1 increase to the given ability score. This is similar to the ability increase gained by characters at every fourth level.

Bloodline Affinity
You gain a bonus (either +2, +4, or +6) on all Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Perform checks made to interact with creatures of your bloodline.

Skill Boost
You receive a +2 bonus on checks made with the given skill.

Special
You gain a special ability. Common bloodline special abilities include bonus feats, natural armor, special attacks (such as the ability to smite evil or smite good), special qualities (such as resistance to energy, spell resistance, or scent), or spell-like abilities.

If you already have a feat that a bloodline provides as a bonus feat, you may choose a different feat. For example, the minor celestial bloodline grants Alertness as a bonus feat at 8th level, If a character with this bloodline already has Alertness by the time he reaches 8th level, he can choose any other feat instead (subject to normal prerequisites, of course).

...

You might choose to create bloodlines of creatures not included here, to create more specialized celestial, demon, or devil bloodlines, or even to create more potent versions of the bloodlines here for use in your game.

Table: Bloodline Trait Distribution gives you the basic framework for bloodline traits. Over the course of twenty levels, a major bloodline boosts four skills (giving each a +2 bonus) and three ability scores (increasing each by 1). It grants a bloodline affinity at three stages (+2, +4, and +6) and provides ten special abilities. Intermediate bloodlines grant the first ten traits, spread out over twenty levels. Minor bloodlines grant the first five traits.

When creating a new bloodline, use those described above as guidelines for appropriate special abilities.

The SRD major bloodlines chart: (since we will always want a major bloodline unless XP is really a big issue, in which case perhaps you might not want to use Bloodlines or make your own equipment or playing a caster or...)
Quote from: SRD:
1st   Skill boost 1
2nd   Special 1
3rd   Ability boost 1
4th   Special 2
5th   Affinity +2
6th   Special 3
7th   Skill boost 2
8th   Special 4
9th   Ability boost 2
10th   Special 5
11th   Affinity +4
12th   Special 6
13th   Skill boost 3
14th   Special 7
15th   Ability boost 3
16th   Special 8
17th   Affinity +6
18th   Special 9
19th   Skill boost 4
20th   Special 10

So for 21,000xp (for an 0 LA character to have a major bloodline) we get 0-10 feats, 4 skills with an unnamed +2, +1 to three different base stats, and +6 to many checks with creatures from your bloodline by level 20. Perhaps the xp penalty is a bit steep (you might not get that level 20 class level before your group goes epic) but there are ways to overcome this, ways with which I prefer this thread not concern itself.


A sample Bloodlines attachment to DavidWL's Sam the commoner build:

Sam: Commoner, 50hp
10 strength, dexterity, constitution, intelligence, and wisdom and 16 charisma
Skills: 22 UMD, 20 Handle Animal
Bonus Feat/Flaw:  Quickdraw / Infested with Chickens (via Psychic Reformation at a later level, when Quickdraw is legal)
1st        Apprentice (Spellcaster)
1st        Mercantile Background
3rd        Item Familiar
6th        Leadership
9th        Dragon Cohort (steel dragon loredrake)
12th       Undead Leadership (Necropolitan )
15th       Landlord
18th       Improved Cohort

Now add the 'chicken Bloodline':
1st   Handle Animal +2
2nd   Quickdraw
3rd   Intelligence +1
4th   Improved Toughness
5th   Chicken Affinity +2
6th   Wild Cohort
7th   UMD +2
8th   Run
9th   Constitution +1
10th   Magical Aptitude
11th   Chicken Affinity +4
12th   Improved Cohort
13th   Profession (Butcher) +2
14th   Animal Affinity
15th   Charisma +1
16th   Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Chickens)
17th   Chicken Affinity +6
18th   Wild Talent
19th   UPD +2
20th   Faster Healing

And Sam becomes this:
Sam Commoner, 90hp
10 strength, dexterity, and 12 constitution, 12 intelligence, 10 wisdom, and 14 charisma
Skills: 24 UMD, 19 Handle Animal, 24 Ride, 3 UPD, 5 Profession
Bonus Feat/Flaw:  Apprentice (Spellcaster) / Infested with Chickens
1st        Mercantile Background
1st      Improved Initiative
3rd        Item Familiar
6th        Leadership
9th        Dragon Cohort (steel dragon loredrake)
12th       Undead Leadership (Necropolitan )
15th       Landlord
18th       Weapon Proficiency (Chickens)


Yes, its a bit of work but this is just for a commoner, imagine what it can do for a charger build


How to get your DM to be more inclined to let you use Bloodlines:
1) Make the fluff match. If you want the extra power from an ancestral line you have to make it make sense for your character. This is more than 'disguising' your power-gaming, its creating coherence.

2) Assign only abilities for which your build will meet the prereqs and preferably do this all within the Bloodline levels. Feat chains should be encouraged. Yes, I know some of the set ones allow feats without the pre-req's but that doesn't mean your DM should.

3) Make the custom abilities match a theme. If you slam the biggest baddest 10 feats you can think of all together, it will stink of cheese. But if you stick 10 low grade but all related feats together, that might slide (opening up the big ones for your HD feats).


A full listing of all base clase abilities that stack with bloodline levels:
Code:
Barbarian's (and Rogue's) Improved Uncanny Dodge required enemy rogue level to flank
Barbarian's (and Totemist's) Literacy is shaky, requires a DM ruling and I would rule no.
Bard's Bardic music uses
Binder's Effective Binder Level
Caster Level (Duh, it says so)
Cleric's (and Paladin's) turning level, or similiar abilities like Shaman's chastice spirits, etc
Cleric's (and Paladin, Incarnate and Soulborn) Aura strength stacking
Dragon Shaman (and Dragonfire Adept's) breath weapon DC
Dragon Shaman Touch of vitality max hp you can heal
Dragon Shaman Commune with Dragon Spirit questions
Druid's Wildshape HD & duration
Druid's (and Ranger's and Totemist's) Wild Empathy
Hexblade's Curse DC
Incarnum classes' Meldshaper level increases (like caster level)
Initiator Level increases by a half for each bloodline level you have.
Knight's Challenge (and daunting version) uses and DC
Monk's Wholeness of Body healing, Abundant Step CL, Diamond Soul SR, and Quivering Palm DC
Paladin's lay on hands
Paladin's (and Soulborn's) smite evil damage
Manifester level AND bonus PP! (yes both are calculated) for Psion, Psychic Warrior, Wilder, etc
Ninja's Ghostmind DC
Truenamer's Utterance DCs (like caster level)
Spelltheif's max caster level of spells that can be stolen
Spell resistence from various classes
SoulKnife's rounds to sustain mindblade in a null psionics field before remaking the check.

What else does not stack with Bloodline levels:
Code:
No Special Mount (usually paladin) since chart lookup has nearly random ranges, not calculations
No Incarnum Max essentia capacity because it is a chart based and not a calculation
No soulmelds/essentia/chakra binds from classes (like level spells known)
No "at xth level" will count, it has to be a calculation
Nor "every additional x'th level after this one" either

The "per x class levels" is probably fine so long as each new instance of it does not appear in the class's
prograssion table... Your DM might feel this is shaky.

Pulled from my Thread and Build Archive

If anyone thinks I'm just blowing smoke, take a look at this lovely thread. I was created whilst my handbook got buried in 339 (before reposting here). Also I didn't not change the thread's direction, others did.

Also:
Quote from: KellKheraptis on March 12, 2010, 04:53:07 AM
the XP to buy bloodline levels is [covered by] the amount of XP gained by investing XP in an Item Familiar.  Coincidence?
It is actually 2000+5000+11000=17k xp, which an item familiar covers with 2k to spare by level 20 or .1k xp to spare by level 19 sans xp as a river.

Offline Toptomcat

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Re: Hatchet Job Port Thread
« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2013, 12:33:59 AM »
Designing your own Custom Class in 3.5e DnD

by Dumb-Age Master

Designing your own Custom Class in 3.5e DnD
"Creating can be an art. Creating can be a job. Creating can be a way of life. Regardless of what creating can be, it shall always be a way to live our fantasies."





  Warning: Creating your own custom classes may not be for everyone. Consult your DM before using custom classes. Side effects may include headache, stomachache, backache, neck ache, chronic mental masturbation, acting stupid, and general douche-baggery. If used correctly, Custom Classes should increase your awesome rating from 0 to 200 in six seconds, provided your bathroom scale doesn't reach there first.





Index
Chapter 1: Introduction
Chapter 2: How NOT To Make a Class
Chapter 3: Some Handy Tips (And Tipsy Hands)
Chapter 4: The Numbers
Chapter 5: PrCs
Chapter 6: Other/Notes
Chapter 7: Example Classes
Chapter 8: References, Thank Yous, and Outroduction

Chapter 1: Introduction

  So, you want to make a class? Good for you! Too bad it will stink to the high heavens and the nine hells with either the overpowering scent of brokenness or the stings-the-nostrils corpse-rotting badness that is underpowered. Don't even get me started on bad fluff! Don't worry, though, because I, the only and only Dumb-Age Master, am here to help!

  "How?" I hear you plea.

  Simple! By telling you exactly what to do! By the way, how many Es are in sheep?

  But wait, you want to be a shark? Yeah, I guess that is cooler. Now if it was bear vs shark...then we might have a battle!

  So rather than spell e v e r y s i n g l e t h i n g t o y o u, I will instead give you some pointers and general guidelines with an -optional- mathematical approach to class-creating. I actually like the mathematical approach myself, as I get so angry when a guide that is supposed to be complete instead just says something vague and has you figure things out on your own. By golly, if I was any good at figuring things out on my own, I wouldn't be reading a guide, now would I?! *smashes head into wall*

  *rubs head* Ugh, I forgot about the fact that class creating may lead to headaches. At least walls don't have fists to punch you with. But they could! Oh yes, they could! You could have your own personal wall army, growing all sorts of limbs to take over the world! Certainly this is very hard, if not impossible, in DnD, though! Whatever shall I do?!

  I know! I'll create my own custom class! I'll call it the Wall-Shape Master! Or something with a better name. I dunno. Jeez, if I can't even create an awesome name for my class, how will I ever make the rest of it?! OH NO!

  Oh, wait! I wrote a guide. Dur, you are so stupid, Dumb-Age Master. Then again, I -do- suppose it's in your name. What ever shall I do with you?

  *Jots down notes for a wall controlling class*

  Anyway, as I was so...
  s...
  l...
  o...
  w...
  l...
  y...
  leading up to, creating your own class is no small feat! Rather, it's a collection of abilities, fluff, and feats every 3rd level, or even more if you are inclined to create a class with bonus feats! Also, if you can't take the jokes, don't be reading this guide. This guide is one big joke, ya sheep!

  I'm kidding, of course. Or am I? You'll never know unless you read farther, wasting your time if it is a joke. At least you'll get a laugh out of it! That is if you're not some sort of anti-joker. (Batman, is that you? No, wait, Batman's not a shark...)

  Where would be the best place to start with learning how to make your own class, though? I suppose the basics would be the best place, no? Repeat after me: A...B...C...D...E...etc etc etc.

  But no, we must bewhy soserious. And stop talking about Batman. Unless you want to make a class out of Batman. We'll cover that later, though.

  The best place to start with designing classes? Learn what not to do. If you learn only one thing from this guide, it should be how to spot a bad custom class when you see one. Granted, you most likely have this ability to some extent, but we must expand this! You must be able to spot the finer mistakes of classes! So long as you know the problem, it matters not if you can fix it, for you can always use trial and error. Of course, this doesn't mean just read the second chapter and then close out of the guide, shaking your head and wondering why the hell this guy seems to love bad jokes so much. You see, my dear Watson, Watsoness to the ladies, and Wantsmoreforless for the min-maxers, knowledge of how to fix flaws are still very important, as it means you are less likely to make a mistake in doing so, or even worse, fix it perfectly after wasting 6 months of your life! As we all know, in our busy world of DnD, we have no time to waste!

  So, without further jokes, or at least in this chapter, I present to you Chapter 2: How NOT To Make a Class


Offline Toptomcat

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Re: Hatchet Job Port Thread
« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2013, 12:35:04 AM »
The Equivalent Bonuses list

by Prime32

The Equivalent Bonuses list

Just a tool to help people keep their homebrew balanced, or figure out which abilities are better than others.



Bonuses
+1 attack is equivalent to...

+2 attack situationally (while flat-footed, against one alignment, creature type, etc.)
+1 AC
+2 damage
+4 attack to confirm critical threat roll
+10ft movement speed
+3 bonus to a skill

+1 DR/-
+2 DR/slashing, DR/bludgeoning, DR/piercing (Tier 1)
+3 DR/Tier 1 or Tier 1
+2.5 DR/silver, DR/cold iron (Tier 2)
+? DR/Tier 1 or Tier 2
+? DR/Tier 1 and Tier 2
+5 DR/magic
+? DR/magic and Tier 1
+? DR/magic and Tier 2
+3.33 DR/adamantine
+1.66 DR/obscure materials

+1 fast healing


Bonus types
+1 untyped attack is equivalent to...

+5 enhancement
+2 morale
+3 insight
+5 competence
+2 other


+1 untyped AC is equivalent to...

+2 dodge
+2 enhancement
+3 sacred/profane
+2 natural
+3 deflection
+2 armour
+3 shield
+4 insight

On dice
The average result of a single die is half its maximum plus 0.5. If you don't believe that the average result of a d6 is 3.5, add up the numbers 1 to 6, then divide by six. Dice, however, add randomness. As the DMG says, randomness favours the underdogs, and the underdogs are usually the monsters. This means that a fixed result is preferable to a random one, unless you have some way to influence the die roll (such as Maximise Spell or action points).


Limited Uses
Since you will usually have a maximum of four encounters per day, a 1/encounter ability is usually about equal to a 3/day ability. This depends on your DM, however, who might like to just throw one very powerful enemy at you per week and nothing else (obviously, per-day powers are better than per-encounter ones in this case).

Since the average length of a combat is 4 rounds, a "once per 1d4 rounds" (averaging to 2.5 rounds) ability is roughly equal to a 2/encounter ability, though it becomes more useful when fighting a powerful opponent.

In a one-shot adventure, items with limited charges become more powerful - check the advice in the Dungeon Master's Guide for increasing their costs.


Links
Init math and matchups OR helping you find the desired init advantage

Offline Toptomcat

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Re: Hatchet Job Port Thread
« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2013, 12:35:48 AM »
The "Rebuilding" Handbook

by Nox_Noctis

"Rebuilding" [Player's Handbook II, page 197], in summary, allows a character to change his class levels. By RAW, these levels can be replaced with any other class level as long as his remaining levels (those not being rebuilt) would allow him to qualify.

Because of this, characters can play with only prestige class levels if desired in many cases.

Any class that has a Base Attack Bonus requirement and advances Base Attack Bonus by +1 per level can be rebuilt. For example, if a class requires BAB +4, you must first qualify and then enter it. Since it advances BAB by +1 at first level, you have BAB +5. If you rebuild a class level, you only count your remaining BAB (+4). Thus, you still qualify for the BAB requirement. You then have three base class levels and two prestige class levels. You can repeat this until you no longer have base class levels.

This same process applies to classes requiring Caster Levels that fully advance caster level at each level with one exception: you must retain at least 1 level of the base class for any prestige class that adds to your progression of a base class (as, without a base class, it cannot be added to anything and thus ceases to function).

Additionally, this also works with skill requirements. Since skill ranks are independent of class levels, you can rebuild new prestige class levels as long as you are already qualified for the prestige class in terms of skill ranks.

The following example uses both Rebuilding and Retraining (both located in the Player's Handbook II).
Quote from: Nox_Noctis
Below is a step-by-step method for minimizing the requirements to enter Ruby Knight Vindicator. "=>" indicates retraining a feat selection when it is no longer required or rebuilding a class level when it is no longer required. Soldier of Light allows you to rebuild your cleric level (and thus recover your base attack bonus) because it will fill the requirement for Ruby Knight Vindicator and thus you will not lose the benefits of the prestige class.

Step 1: Cleric 1/Fighter 1/Warblade 1
Human: Favored
1: Primary Contact
Fighter 1: Martial Study
3: Martial Stance

Step 2: Cleric 1/Fighter 1/Warblade 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 1
Human: Favored
1: Primary Contact => ?
Fighter 1: Martial Study
3: Martial Stance

Here you need to use skill point retraining to retrain a point into Knowledge (religion) at level 4 just before you enter Ruby Knight Vindicator. This will allow you to enter a level early (in addition to the cityscape feats, which let you enter another level earlier).

Step 3: Cleric 1/Fighter 1/Warblade 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 2
Human: Favored => ?
1: ?
Fighter 1: Martial Study
3: Martial Stance

Step 4: Cleric 1/Fighter 1/Warblade 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 3
Human: ?
1: ?
Fighter 1: Martial Study
3: Martial Stance => ?
6: ?

Step 5: Cleric 1/Fighter 1=> Something 1/Warblade 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 4
Human: ?
1: ?
Fighter 1: Martial Study => ?
3: ?
6: ?

Step 6: Cleric 1/Something 1/Warblade 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 5
Human: ?
1: ?
3: ?
6: ?

Step 7: Cleric 1/Something 1/Warblade 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 6
Human: ?
1: ?
3: ?
6: ?
9: ?

Step 8: Cleric 1/Something 1/Warblade 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 7
Human: ?
1: ?
3: ?
6: ?
9: ?

Step 8: Cleric 1=>Something 1/Something 1/Warblade 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 7/Soldier of Light 1
Human: ?
1: ?
3: ?
6: ?
9: ?


Alternatively, you can use an Elf and take Fighter 2 to gain the feats you need in time. Then, by forgoing taking Soldier of Light (losing a single point of base attack bonus to Cleric 1), you can enter Eternal Blade and at level 20 you will have access to Island in Time (Eternal Blade 10). Now you can take your turn as an immediate action and then you and your cohort (identically constructed; alternatively, your cohort can forgo the Eternal Blade levels since only one of you needs Island in Time in most situations and your cohort will gain it only once you're in epic levels anyway) can use White Raven Tactics with one another.

As you can see, Rebuilding allows you to excise undesired levels that are otherwise needed to qualify for prestige classes.

I hope this has been helpful. This is a work in progress and I will work on formatting and add a section for specific applications of this process (classes that can be rebuilt).

Offline Toptomcat

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Re: Hatchet Job Port Thread
« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2013, 12:36:50 AM »
Naberius: sacking your stats for fun and profit

by Surreal

We all know about Naberius' tasty ability healing by now. "You heal 1 point in each damaged ability score each round, and 1 point in all drained ability scores every hour."

So what classes/feats/spells/etc allow us to sacrifice our attributes for various effects? Here's what I have so far...

Prestige Classes
Hellfire Warlock Fiendish Codex II
- 1 con damage, add helfire to eldritch blast

Hellreaver Fiendish Codex II
- 2 Con damage, replenish your holy fury points (which all your other abilities are triggered off of)

Tainted Scholar (blooded metamagic) Heroes of Horror
- apply metamagic to spells, costs 1 Con damage per slot adjustment, spell cannot go above what you can normally cast



Feats
Chosen of Evils Elder Evils
- 1 Con damage: gain a bonus to various rolls

Dark Speech Elder Evils
- 1d4 Cha damage: 30' fear or diplomacy effect
- 1d4 Cha damage: increase CL by 1
- 1d4 Con damage: create a hive mind, enjoy the lunacy that follows

Dark Whispers (prereq: Dark Speech) Elder Evils
- 1 Cha damage: 30' stagger or confused effect

Filthy Outburst (prereq: Dark Speech) Elder Evils
- 1d6 Cha damage: 60' deafening effect

Insane Defiance Elder Evils
- 1 Wis damage: retarget a mind-affect spell or SLA, new target takes -4 penalty to save

Eldritch Corruption Heroes of Horror
- enlarge/widen/highten/widen a spell, ally takes 2 Con damage per slot adjustment

Poison Healer Fiendish Codex I
- assuming you treat poison like a healing potion (it's almost cheaper sometimes), every time you make a saving throw you heal HP = con mod, but if you fail you still take poison damage.



Spells
-Book of Exalted Deeds- "Sanctified Spells" - clerics can spontaneously cast any sanctified spell
Ayailla's Radiand Burst - 1d2 Str damage, 60' cone direct damage and blindness
Brilliant Emanation - 1d3 Str damage, 100' radius blindness
Celestial Aspect - 1d3 Str damage, gain a sword or eyebeams or horn attack or wings
Channel Celestial - 1d3 Str & 1d3 Dex damage, exactly as the name implies
Channel Greater Celestial - 1d6 Str & 1d6 Dex damage,
Constricting Chains - 1d2 Str damage, entangle and constrict one creature
Cry of Ysgard - 1d3 Str drain, call 2d4 Bauriars (from BoED, not Planar Handbook)
Curtain of Light - 1d4 Str damage, "wall of light"
Divine Inspiration - 1d2 Str damage, +3 on attack rolls vs evil
Dolorous Motes - 1d3 Wis damage, long range daze area attack
Dragon Cloud - 1d4 Con damage, calls an air elemental dragon thingy
Exalted Raiment - 1d4 Str damage, gain AC, DR, SR, and reduce ability damage
Hammer of Righteousness - 1d3 Str damage, ranged force direct damage
Inquisition - 1d4 Con damage, target divulged information
Luminous Armor - 1d2 Str damage, gain AC, daylight, enemies take -4 to attack
Luminous Armor, Greater - 1d3 Str damage
Phieran's Resolve, 1d3 Str damage, +4 on saves vs evil
Rain of Embers, 1d2 Str drain, medium range direct damage area attack
Restore Soul's Treasure, 1d4 Con drain, restores a lost item
Sicken Evil, 1d4 Str damage, 20' radius sicken
Storm of Shards, 1d3 Str drain, 60' radius blinding and direct damage
Sunmantle, 1d4 Str damage, daylight, DR, and retribution vs melee attacks
Valiant Steed, 1d3 Str drain, call a unicorn or pegasus mount

-Champions of Valor- "Sanctified Spells" - clerics can spontaneously cast any sanctified spell
Animate with the Spirits - 1d3 Str drain, celestial animate dead
Benign Projection - 1d2 Str damage, similar to Project Image
Celestial Fortress - 1d2 Con damage, similar to Leomund's Secure Shelter
Create Lantern Archon - 1d2 Con drain, creates friendly lantern archon that can do one task
Holy Fire Shield - 1d3 Str damage, like a divine Fire Shield
Vision of Punishment - 1d2 Str damage, nauseates target (sickens on save)

-Book of Vile Darkness- "Corrupt Spells"
Absorb Mind - 2d6 Wisdom Damage
Abosrb Srength  - 2d6 Wisdom Damage
Addiction - Chosen Drug (Various)
Apocalype from the Sky - 4d6 Wisdom and 3d6 Con drain. Just preparing it causes 1d3 Wisdom damage and 1d3 Wisdom damage for each day it remains prepared. Even with fast healing careful not to kill yourself with this one.
Claw of the Bebilith - 1d6 Dex Damage
Cloud of the Achairerai - Disease Component Soul Rot (1d6 Wisdom 1d6 Cha Damage daily)
Consume Likeness - 2d6 Wisdom Drain
Crushing Fist of Spite - Disease Component Festering Anger (1d3 Con Damage daily)
Death by thorns - 1d3 Wisdom drain
Devil's Tougne - 1d6 Wisdom damage
Evil Weather - 3d6 Con damage
Fangs of the Vampire King - 1d6 Str Damage
Forbidden Speech - 1d6 Str Damage
Glimpse of Truth: see Mordayn Vapor
Heartclutch - Disease Component Soul Rot (1d6 Wisdom 1d6 Cha Damage daily)
Lahm's Finger Darts - 1 Str damage + 1 Str damage per dart. Hilarious Spell!
Love's Pain - 1d6 Int Damage
Pestilence - Any Disease (Various)
Plauge of Nightmares - 1d6 Str damage per week
Power Leech - 1 Wisdom Drain
Rapture of Rupture - 1 Str Damage per target
Red Fester - 1d6 Str Damage
Rotting Curse of Urfestra - 1d6 Str Damage
Seething Eyebane - 1d6 Con damage
Serpents of Theggeron - 1d6 Int Damage
Shriveling - Disease Component Soul Rot (1d6 Wisdom 1d6 Cha Damage daily)
Stunning Screech - Mushroom Powder see drugs
Toungue of Baalzebul - Mushroom Powder see drugs
Touch of Juiblex - 1d6 Str Damage



Symbionts
-Eberron Campaign Setting-
Living Breastplate - 1 Str damage to attach or remove
Tentacle Whip - 1 Dex damage every night
Tongueworm - 1d3 Con damage to attach or remove

-Magic of Eberron-
Breed Leech - 1d3 Con damage to attach or remove
Crawling Gauntlet - 1d4 Con damage to attach or remove
Shadow Sibling - 1d3 Wis damage to attach or remove
Spellwurm - 1d3 Con damage to attach or remove
Stormstalk - 1d3 Int damage to attach or remove
Throwing Scarab - 1d3 Wis damage to attach or remove
Winter Cyst - 1d3 Int damage to attach or remove

-Fiend Folio-
Fiendish Symbionts - good creatures take 1d3 Wis damage, see text (p.219)



Drugs
-Book of Vile Darkness-
Baccaran: 1d4 Str damage
Devilweed: 1 Wis damage
Luhix: 1 damage to all ability scores
Mordayn Vapor "Dreammist": 1d4 Con and 1d4 Wis damage; Overdose - 1d10 Con/1d10 Con damage as a poison
Mushroom powder: 1 Str damage
Sannish: 1 Wis damage
Terran Brendy: 2 Con damage; Overdose 1 Con Damage

~Addictions in general~
Negligible: 1d3-2 Dex Damage
Low : 1d3 Dex Damage
Medium: 1d4 Dex, 1d4 Wis damage
High: 1d6 Dex, 1d6 Wis, 1d2 Con damage
Extreme: 1d6 Dex, 1d6 Wis, 1d6 Con damage
Vicious: 1d8 Dex, 1d8 Wis, 1d6 Con, 1d6 Str damage

-Forgotten Realms: Lords of Darkness-
Jhuild "Thrallwine" - 1 Wis Damage
Katakuda "Dragon skin" 1d4+1 Dex Damage
Mordayn Vapor "Dreammist" - 1d4 Con damage; Overdose - 1d10 Con/1d10 Con damage as a poison
Panaeolo - 1d6 Cha Damage; Overdose - 2d8 Cha damage
Rhul "Battlewine" - Overdose 1d4 Int damage
Sezarad Root - 1d4 Wis damage
Ziran "Bloodfast" - 2 Con Damage; Overdose 2 Con damage

Offline Toptomcat

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Re: Hatchet Job Port Thread
« Reply #39 on: April 11, 2013, 12:37:41 AM »
Is there a list of ways to gain actions?

by Ikeren

Breaking the action economy:

In DND, the true economy is how much you are capable of doing in a single round. Even the most powerful wizard is improved, because ultimately, 2 rounds worth of actions >>> 1 round worth of actions.

The following are allowed:
Modifying actions (turning swift to move to standard, etc)
Abilities that reduce actions (turning full round actions to standard, move actions as swift, etc).
Repeating Actions: Letting you double full attack, etc.
Providing something that would normally take an action for free or cheaper: I'm not sure if I want to include combat moves as free actions/swift actions/no actions/part of standard attacks in here. Trip is normally a standard action; a free trip attack on a standard attack action is still a standard action used. For now I'm skipping this sort of thing.




This will eventually turn into a handbook:

Items:
Belt of Battle: MIC: 12000gp, 3 charges a day: 1/2/3 charges spent as a swift action gain you another move/standard/full round action.
Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker: MIC: 500 gp, 1 charge day: Swift action to gain you a move action for half your total movement rate.
Glyph Rune (Lesser, Greater): MIC page 162, 1000/4000 gp. Let you convert any spell into a glyph rune (lesser = below level 2, and greater = above level 5, so what the hell is up with that 3 level gap?). See glyph of warding description here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glyphOfWarding.htm. Can carry it fine until you attach the glyph to a surface. So the idea is you put it in a bandolier and open a bunch of bandolier pockets, or line the interior of a box with them, key them with your command word, then open the box. Get as many buffs as you want as a move action. Expect your DM to be moderately unimpressed.
Metamagic Rods: See appropriate metamagic effects below.
Rod of Many Wands: (Complete Mage 128, 27,000 gp)  Allows the firing of up to three wands simultaneously as a full round action, at the cost of extra charges.
Bloodspike, Tempo: Magic of Eberron page 141, 150gp. Stab it into you (dealing 1 point of piercing damage), and take a move action expending the potion as no action sometime within the next hour (or it dissipates, useless).

Feats:
Travel Devotion, Complete Champion, pg 62. 1/day, for 1 minute, you can move up to your speed as a swift action (each round). You can not 5 foot step in rounds where you use this ability. Can also pay 2 turn attempts, or take the feat multiple times, for another charge.
Action Surge(ECS): allows you to spend 2 Action Points to get a free standard or move action Requires the action point variant
FEAT: Heroic Surge (Age of Mortals 50).  Once per day per 4 levels, you get an extra standard action before or after your normal actions.  Usable no more than 1/round.

Class Features:
Eternal Blade Class Feature Level 10: Island in Time: Once per encounter, gain a full round action whenever you want as an immediate action. This does not effect your initiative. For example: Full round at init 15. Full round at init 14. Next combat round, full round (minus the swift action) at Init 15 again.
Ruby Knight Vindicator 7: Spend turn undead for swift action. Book doesn't limit it to 1/round, but a sane DM will.
Thrall of Demogorgan 4: BOVD, Page 68: Dual Actions: Twice day, take two full rounds worth of actions in the same round. (4 level dip also gets you 4 BAB, 2 caster levels, Fear, Hypnosis, and 2 NA. No hard Pre-requisites except 2 useless feats/4 BAB).
Swiftblade 9 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327): Perpetual Options (Ex): When hasted, you can choose to make an extra move or extra standard action under the effect of haste.
Factotum 8: Cunning Surge: Dungeonscape Page 15: Spend 3 inspiration points, gain extra standard action on your turn. Factotum gets 10 over 20 levels (5 at level 8), and inspiration refills each encounter. Font of inspiration feat (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606) lets you pump that up some more.
War Weaver 1-5: Heroes of Battle: Has a tapastry that lets you drop buffs on allies precasted into the tapastry (1-5, depending on class levels) as a move action.
Atavist 10: Races of Eberron Page 133. expend psionic focus, gain a standard or move action
Anima Mage: Tome of Magic page 50.  free metammagic 3/day and immediate action spell 1/day.
Swordsage 20: Dual Boost, Tome of Battle: Use 2 boosts in a single round.


Spells:
Lesser Celerity: Bard/Wiz/Sorc 2: PHB 2 Pg 105: Immediate action (interrupting others turn), take a move action. Dazed till end of next turn. Need a way to be immune to daze (In Surreal's list, look for "Ways to gain immunity to daze/stun")
Celerity: Bard/Wiz/Sorc 4: PHB 2 Pg 105: As Lesser Celerity, but gain a standard action.
Greater Celerity: Wiz/Sorc 8: PHB 2 page 105: As Celerity, but gain a full round action.
Time Stop: PHB: Wiz/Sorc/Trickery 9: Gain 1d4+1 rounds to act; possibly extendable or maximizable; can't traget creatures. Swiftblade 10 has an ability that produces this effect.
Persistent Time Stop: PHB/Complete Arcane Feat: Arguably gives you 24 hours in a single round. Semi TO, and DM may not allow that reading.
Snake's Swiftness: SPC Page 193: Dru 1, Wiz/Sorc 2: Standard action, close range, one ally makes an immediate ranged or melee attack. Does not stack with haste or haste like effects.
Snake's Swiftness, Mass: SPC Page 193: Dru 2, Wiz/Sorc 3: Standard action, medium range; ally and allies within 20 foot burst of target get snake's swiftness.
Teleport Spells + Quicken: Move appropriate distance as swift action, saving your movement.
Eyes of the Orcale: Cle 6/Wiz6/sorc6/Wujen 6: Dragon Magic page 66/67. 1 round/level till expended, gain +2 (+3 if dragonblooded) insight to reflex saves/ac, and can ready a single standard action at the end of your turn, regardless of actions taken. Readying the action ends the spell.
arcane spellsurge Sorc7. Dragon Magic: turns all your standard action spells to swift action, full rounds to standards, and anything higher to one round less
Evard's Menacing Tentacles from PHBII gratns 2 free tentacle attacks/round,
Cloud of Knives from PHB2, grants a free flying dagger attack/round, and
Lord of the SKy DragonMagic lets a character use a Swift Action to make a ranged electric attack.

Metamagic:
Quicken Spell (PHB) --- Cast a spell as a swift action.
    --- Note: There are numerous actions that mimic this ability, including sudden metamagic quicken, rods of metamagic, quickcast (Duskblade class feature), various abilities allowing casting during various attack manouvers (Daggerspell mage), and this ability for certain spells or schools (Abjurant Champion (extend spells lower than 3) and Swiftblade (Haste Spells)).
Repeat Spell Complete Arcane Page 83: +3 bonus --- Spell cast gets repeated at the same target the following round as no action.
Rapid Spell, Complete Divine Page 83, +1 bonus: Full round spells become standard action.
Twin Spell, Complete Arcane Page 84: +4 bonus --- Spell gets cast a second time at the same target immediately as no action.

Tome of Battle Maouvers:
White Raven Tactics: White Raven 3: Give "an ally" (if your DM lets you use it on yourself, be happy) a turn on your init count -1
Moment of Alacrity: Diamond Mind 6: Boost, swift action: Improve your initiative count by 20. Can act back to back if lower on the initiative pole than enemies by less than 20.
Quicksilver Motion: Diamond Mind 7: Boost, swift action: Gain a move action.
Time Stands Still: Diamond Mind 9: Full attack, initiate this manouver to gain another full attack.
Sudden Leap: Tome of Battle, Tiger 1, Boost. — Swift action, jump check, move an appropriate amount.
Shifting Defence: Tome of Battle: Setting Sun 5, Stance: 5 foot step with every missed attack as immediate action, consumes AoO.
Order forged from Chaos: Tome of Battle: White Raven 6: Move action to initiate, allies within 30 feet immediately take move action.
Shadow Blink: Tome of Battle: Shadow 7: Swift action, Teleport 50 feet through shadows.

Psionics:
Anticipatory Strike:  It's like Psionic White Raven Tactics, except you can only affect yourself with it.
Sense Danger:  Let's you manifest any power as an immediate action during the surprise round or first round of combat as long as the nomral manifesting time isn't longer than 1 standard action and it costs 1 power point.
Synchronicity
Synchronicity is my favorite action granter, ever.

thats because it grants readied actions, the Lords of all Actions. readied actions are taken in response to an event. normally this must be specified when you ready the action, but this is not required with synchronicity. this means these actions can be taken at ANY point during the duration. including during your opponents turn. This is like an immediate action, except you can quite easily have more of them, and they have the size of a standard action.

quickened synchronicity costs 7 pp. thats like a fourth level power, which makes it like celerity, without daze, and it can be abused much more easily(linked power).

also, you can persist it, to have an "Oh fuck" trigger ready that doesn't require you to not be flatfooted.

Hustle:

Schism:


Truename Magic(ToM):
Quicken Utterance: use utterances as a swift action as long as you can make your Truespeak checks
Temporal Twist: one free attack
Temporal Spiral: one extra move action


Racial Features:
Choker, Quickness: d20 SRD: Quickness (Su): Gain an extra standard action or more action during each round. Someone please give me a way to get SU traits of creatures.
Druid Choker: Take the feat Abberant Wildshape(LoM). Then take the feat Assume Supernaral Ability(SS), which allows you to take the supernatural(Su) powers of any creature you wildshape/polymorph etc. into. Now you can wildshape into Choker for instant action economy.
Elan Choker: Because Elans are already Abberations, a simple Alter Self spell with the Assume Supernatural Abilities feat gives them Choker fun potentailly at 1st level with the right feats.

Chronotyryn, Fiend Folio Page 33. Large Magical Beast (Extraplanar). Dual Action (Su): Get 2 full round actions (including 2 five foot steps) per round.
Sharn: Look this creature up.

Minions:
Familiars: Numerous tricks about getting familiars to use UMD skill, etc, all let your familiar act productively on your turn.
Followers/Cohort (Leadership, Thrallherd): Gain actions on your behalf. Check here: http://web.archive.org/web/20071015201036rn_1/forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-763024
Animal Companions: Fight on your behalf.

Other Tricks:
Avoiding/Mitigating Sleep: Does not make any action faster, but allows you to act more in a day, abstractly.
planes with the timeless trait.:
demiplanes with a different time ratio:

More things that do:

Modifying actions (turning swift to move to standard, etc)
Abilities that reduce actions (turning full round actions to standard, move actions as swift, etc).
Gaining new actions.