Discussion and Suggestion Thread

[DonQuixote]

So, the point has been raised by two friends that spellshapers deal too much damage.  To what extent should I tone down the extra damage from formulae, and how should I tweak Spellshape Focus and Greater Spellshape focus to compensate?

Edit: So, what I'm thinking is that I'll change Spellshape Focus to require shaper level 3rd, Greater Spellshape Focus to require shaper level 12th, and impose a cap of one die per formula level on all extra damage on formulae.  At 17th level, shaping a 9th-level formula would then be a maximum of 14d6 plus the formula's effects, plus an additional 2d6 if you have both feats.

Seem legitimate?

[The-Mage-King]

Just saw this!  I've added it to the Index, and I'll look over it when I have the chance.  Unfortunately, I have a paper due tomorrow...and I sort of spent most of today writing a race.

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As for the damage, I'd say not much for formulae, and the changes to Spellshape Focus would work fine.


See, it's BLASTING.  Blasting that allows SR or DR.

Not exactly powerful, especially at higher levels. Let it have it's damage.

[DonQuixote]

Hrm, okay.  The general consensus online seems to be that the damage isn't that problematic, so I'm going to tentatively make those feat changes--which probably has the biggest impact at 1st level, since you can no longer start out dealing 2d6 damage from 60 feet--and call it a day.  Edit: Also, I'll probably remove the bonus damage on 1st-level formulae, since that could be part of the problem.  Now that I think about it....someone with access to the Searing Flame circle could theoretically deal 4d6+1 damage at 1st level.

Probably tomorrow, since the fact that I'm posting right now means that I still haven't started that paper.


Edit Again: So, after a brief amount of discussion with one of the friends in question--the first time I'd actually gotten to talk to one of them about it--I realized another potential part of the problem.  I always play elemental adepts.  And I always have high Charisma.

Spellshape Attunement, you're on the chopping block as soon as I figure out what to replace you with.



Edit Edit Edit: So, some errata is going to be pushed as soon as I have time to throw the PDFs together.  Here's a summary:

Classes:

• Elemental Adept: Spellshape Attunement is being replaced by Attuned Adept, which grants you the benefit of a constant endure elements effect and immunity to the harmful effects of the Elemental Plane of your chosen element.

Feats:

• Spellshape Focus: Now requires shaper level 3rd.
• Greater Spellshape Focus: Now requires shaper level 12th.

Formulae:

• General: All 1st-level major formulae are losing any extra damage that they added to your spellshape attacks.

Items:

• Lamens: The volatile lamen enhancement is being replaced by an ability that allows you to expend prepared formulae in order to gain a bonus on attack and damage rolls with your spellshape attacks.

With that, I think it will no longer be possible to deal 5d6+7 damage in one round at level 2.

[DonQuixote]

Errata went up.

There was totally something else I was going to say, suggest, or talk about...but I'm so sleep-deprived that I forgot what it was.

Edit: Changed the elemental shapers slightly, giving the normal elementals two more circles each.  Now, elementals and paraelementals all get access to the same number of circles.

Additionally, I changed how elemental shaper companions work.  They now prepare from your formulae known, but can't prepare formulae you've already prepared.  Yeah.

[samnemath]

just a question on spellheart items.

Do I misread something or for 2500 gp you get a +1 Magic Weapon that converts all your damage to force damage? (spellheart weapon with 1st level Unseen Impetus formula)


Edit: Also does the rule preventing you from enchanting spellheart items, also prevents you from attaching crystals?

[DonQuixote]

just a question on spellheart items.

Do I misread something or for 2500 gp you get a +1 Magic Weapon that converts all your damage to force damage? (spellheart weapon with 1st level Unseen Impetus formula)

...apparently.

Hrm.

How problematic is this?  Bear in mind that the weapon is technically not a [Force] effect--it deals damage as though it were a kinetic blast attack, but it's only actually treated as being a kinetic blast for the purposes of shaping formulae.  Arguably, then, it doesn't automatically ignore incorporeal miss chance.  That's how I'd rule, anyway.

Also, attacks with the weapon are subject to spell resistance (when dealing force damage with it, anyway), and you can't enchant it by conventional means.  So, there's some trade-off, here.

Edit: Also does the rule preventing you from enchanting spellheart items, also prevents you from attaching crystals?

Again, hrm.  Technically, it only says that they can't be enchanted in the normal way.  They are then called out as being treated as magical weapons for all other purposes, so I guess you can go to town.

[Garryl]

I'm not sure there even is, technically, such a thing as "force damage". I think it's just what the community commonly uses to refer to the damage caused by force effects, which is untyped.

Edit: Time to look at the Elemental Adept again.

Spellshaping: Does this mean that if you dip a single level of Elemental Adept, you can't even shape from the opposed circle with your other spellshaping classes?

Devoted Adept: Can this (or at least the CL boost) apply to your associated spellshapes, too, so you don't have to remember about the extra +/- 1-2 CLs when you shape a major versus when you use a spellshape atatck normally?

Elemental Travel: You get this at level 13. Unless there's something kooky about the spell I don't know, why not just make this at will? Anything that'll have at least 13 uses per day is close enough already.

[DonQuixote]

I'm not sure there even is, technically, such a thing as "force damage". I think it's just what the community commonly uses to refer to the damage caused by force effects, which is untyped.

A good number of spells refer to "force damage," while others refer to "untyped damage."  For some reason, FORCE is a thing.

Spellshaping: Does this mean that if you dip a single level of Elemental Adept, you can't even shape from the opposed circle with your other spellshaping classes?

Hrm, I think I'll go in and note that the restrictions apply only to formulae known as an elemental adept.  Also makes that whole "half of all formulae you know must belong to one of your elemental circles."  Incidentally, I'm going to be changing the "half of all formulae" clause so that it applies only to your overall formulae, rather than your formulae of each formula level, since that otherwise leads to wonkiness with replacing formulae.

Devoted Adept: Can this (or at least the CL boost) apply to your associated spellshapes, too, so you don't have to remember about the extra +/- 1-2 CLs when you shape a major versus when you use a spellshape atatck normally?

Things that I didn't think about when writing the class: The fact that increasing your shaper level increases your damage.  Yeah, I'll have that apply to spellshape attacks as well.

Elemental Travel: You get this at level 13. Unless there's something kooky about the spell I don't know, why not just make this at will? Anything that'll have at least 13 uses per day is close enough already.

Because I am a silly, silly person.  That'll be changed to at will, yeah.


Edit: These have been changed.  Enjoy the new PDF!

[The-Mage-King]

OOh! Idea for a Circle!


Summoning! Spellshape attack summons a weak creature, stronger stuff gets called by formulae.


Alternatively, spellshape attack spawns a tentacle with limited range to attack.


Basically, something eldritch abomination theme.

[DonQuixote]

Yeah, the problem with the spellshape attack summoning a creature would be that it runs into my issue with non-standard spellshape attacks.  It'd basically have to be the D&D equivalent of a Spark Elemental, at which point the actual summoning nature is entirely flavorful.  Not that that's a problem, just that it runs into...

...the issue of duration.  See, summoning is generally predicated around the idea of having stuff that sticks around.  The basic spellshape attack can't be normal summoning, since you get that at-will and my God, the complications.  If we define formulae as summoning more powerful creatures, we have to look at how the basic summoning works and ow my head.

On another point, there are a handful of problems related to what sort of creatures you summon.  In the end, I'd probably have to define all the possible creatures to avoid running into various issues with people who don't have every 3.5 book ever printed.  I'm already worse about referencing non-core material than I'd like to be.

In the end, this feels more like something that should be a class ability than something that should be a complete circle on its own.  That's what ended up happening to the idea of a circle based on transformation.

Could go well with that "dark pact" spellshaping class that's been bouncing around in my head.  You gain the ability to summon different kinds of infernal entities.

[Amechra]

Well, who said anything about summoning whole creatures? (Besides the guy who suggested this.)

I'm thinking calling in tentacles and stuff like that would be real fun, especially if calling the tentacles allows you to treat them as Spellshape attacks...

[DonQuixote]

The problem with summoning spellshape attacks is that it screws up the way that the system works.

Again, this is something that's far more likely to see the light of day as a set of class features, rather than as a circle.

Plus, given the actual flavor for spellshaping--which is coming together in my head, finally--having Far Realm powers makes very little sense.

[Amechra]

Fine, how about an Arcane circle? Meaning you are throwing around Dispels and the like, with high level Formulae doing stuff like throwing full-out Mordekainen's Disjunctions around?

[DonQuixote]

Well, first of all, no spellshaper will ever have access to Mordenkainen's disjunction, because that is a terrible spell that should never exist.

The Arcane circle idea runs into the problem that most of its abilities won't actually be blast-tastic.  I do, however, actually have plans for this sort of thing.  One of the spellsage ACFs is basically going to be a "master of the arcane" shtick.  Stuff like the rebuke spell and command magic abilities, but also stuff that functions like antimagic ray.

So, yeah, class featured, again.

[Amechra]

Awww...

But if I remember correctly, there are blasty dispels...

And I meant to type Reaving Dispel. Really.

[DonQuixote]

I mean, I'm already fairly committed to the spellsage ACF, so that's definitely going through.

The other problem is finding twenty-one unique effects for the "arcane" circle.  We have dispelling, greater dispelling, and reaving dispelling...which are all completely useless against foes without spells present.

I just think it'll be far too much work for far too little payout, especially since I literally have no ideas for it.  Plus, those kinds of effects aren't things that I find to be particularly compelling.

[Amechra]

I hope you're adding in Counterspells with that ACF, because I like the idea of an adept that just flicks a finger to deflect a spell away from himself, or being able to play tennis with enemy mages.

I might actually make a dispelling/counterspelling/enabling circle myself, if it is OK with you; ideas include Antimagic Fields, redirecting a spell aimed at yourself, a formula that adds damage when used on a creature with any SLAs or Su abilities, and finally... Invoke Magic! (an Evocation spell from LoM that allows you to cast spells in an Antimagic field by essentially channeling magic. It is awesome.)

The circle aura would probably either give a bonus to SR penetration checks or to saves vs. spells.

Because, rarity of one's foes does not mean that you should not exist.

[DonQuixote]

Be my guest!

Edit: Though the Astral Essence aura already gives you a bonus on SR penetration checks.

[The-Mage-King]

Something to note: The PrC's don't say if they give weapon or armor proficiencies.

Thought you should know.

[DonQuixote]

Well, neither Tome of Battle nor Tome of Magic lists proficiencies unless you gain them, so--since none of the prestige classes are intended to give you any new proficiencies--I didn't feel that the header needed to be present.