Discussion and Suggestion Thread

[sirpercival]

Next question.  Here, Garryl suggested that since spellshape attacks are SLAs, DR does not apply to them, and so it doesn't matter if one does piercing, one does bludgeoning, etc.  I think you probably meant for DR to apply.  Is that correct?  If so, you may want to clarify that somewhere in the rules (or point me toward where it is already clarified, since we can't find it).

[DonQuixote]

Question.  How/where should I post those two prestige classes?  Should I:

(a) PM you/post here/otherwise convey to you the info, so you can edit & post;
(b) Post myself, in a thread on this forum, and you will edit as necessary using your scrumtrelescent mod powers;
(c) Post myself elsewhere, like on the main homebrew forum, and you will suggest edits while critiquing and then link to the finished product?

I'll be honest, I don't have a real preference here.  Post it in whatever way is easiest and most convenient for you.  Thus far, all of the spellshaping homebrew that isn't by me has been posted on GitP, and I've linked over to it in the Index.  Post it in general homebrew, post it in this subforum, post it wherever.

Technically, I think board policy prevents me from using my mod powers to actually edit your posts, even though mod powers allow me to do that.  So, you may get random messages from me about sentence structure, formatting, and what have you.

Next question.  Here, Garryl suggested that since spellshape attacks are SLAs, DR does not apply to them, and so it doesn't matter if one does piercing, one does bludgeoning, etc.  I think you probably meant for DR to apply.  Is that correct?  If so, you may want to clarify that somewhere in the rules (or point me toward where it is already clarified, since we can't find it).

Wait, wait.  Spells and spell-like abilities that deal types of weapon damage aren't normally subject to DR?  That's...that's asinine.  The intention was for DR to apply, since I assume that's how logic worked.  After work today, I'll go back to the relevant spellshape attacks and note that they are subject to damage reduction.  Hell, I already note that they count as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction, so it should be relatively easy to slip in there.

[radmelon]

I'll be honest, I don't see a "vs." here.  From what I know, 610 sounds like exactly the sort of thing that the Phyrexians would tame and use.  Remember, they aren't made entirely of metal, but also of compleated flesh.  And 610 sounds like the perfect way to begin compleation of the unwilling.

Well, it's actually going to be more 'inspired' by 610, I'm also going to include some elements from a couple of flash games I play. Two of the raids from WarMetal Tyrant (Specifically Blightbloom and Miasma), as well as The Breach. I'm also going to take quite a few of the features from Ragnorra.

[Garryl]

Next question.  Here, Garryl suggested that since spellshape attacks are SLAs, DR does not apply to them, and so it doesn't matter if one does piercing, one does bludgeoning, etc.  I think you probably meant for DR to apply.  Is that correct?  If so, you may want to clarify that somewhere in the rules (or point me toward where it is already clarified, since we can't find it).

Wait, wait.  Spells and spell-like abilities that deal types of weapon damage aren't normally subject to DR?  That's...that's asinine.  The intention was for DR to apply, since I assume that's how logic worked.  After work today, I'll go back to the relevant spellshape attacks and note that they are subject to damage reduction.  Hell, I already note that they count as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction, so it should be relatively easy to slip in there.

Yup. Asinine, but true.

The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. A certain kind of weapon can sometimes damage the creature normally, as noted below.

Psionic powers were "errataed" in CPsi to also be subject to damage reduction where applicable, but nothing of the sort exists for spells or SLAs. Aside from that, pretty much only mundane weapon attacks are subject to DR.

[TheGeometer]

Psionic powers were "errataed" in CPsi to also be subject to damage reduction where applicable, but nothing of the sort exists for spells or SLAs. Aside from that, pretty much only mundane weapon attacks are subject to DR.

I was just browsing the thread when I found this, and realized that my Residuum system uses SLAs that do not specifically mention DR being applicable. So thanks, you just helped more than one magic system with that post.

[sirpercival]

Question.  How/where should I post those two prestige classes?  Should I:

(a) PM you/post here/otherwise convey to you the info, so you can edit & post;
(b) Post myself, in a thread on this forum, and you will edit as necessary using your scrumtrelescent mod powers;
(c) Post myself elsewhere, like on the main homebrew forum, and you will suggest edits while critiquing and then link to the finished product?

I'll be honest, I don't have a real preference here.  Post it in whatever way is easiest and most convenient for you.  Thus far, all of the spellshaping homebrew that isn't by me has been posted on GitP, and I've linked over to it in the Index.  Post it in general homebrew, post it in this subforum, post it wherever.

Technically, I think board policy prevents me from using my mod powers to actually edit your posts, even though mod powers allow me to do that.  So, you may get random messages from me about sentence structure, formatting, and what have you.

Hmm.... I think what I'll do is make a single thread on this board for my contributions to spellshaping and just post everything I write in there.  And you can link to stuff in the index as appropriate.

I'm just warning you, I'm already cogitating about how to combine Spellshaping with Rituals.  It will happen.

Next question.  Here, Garryl suggested that since spellshape attacks are SLAs, DR does not apply to them, and so it doesn't matter if one does piercing, one does bludgeoning, etc.  I think you probably meant for DR to apply.  Is that correct?  If so, you may want to clarify that somewhere in the rules (or point me toward where it is already clarified, since we can't find it).

Wait, wait.  Spells and spell-like abilities that deal types of weapon damage aren't normally subject to DR?  That's...that's asinine.  The intention was for DR to apply, since I assume that's how logic worked.  After work today, I'll go back to the relevant spellshape attacks and note that they are subject to damage reduction.  Hell, I already note that they count as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction, so it should be relatively easy to slip in there.

Sweet.

[Garryl]

I'm just warning you, I'm already cogitating about how to combine Spellshaping with Rituals.  It will happen.

I'm surprised it hasn't already.

[sirpercival]

Posted the Azure Ascetic... except for the flavor stuff at the end.  I kind of suck at writing that stuff, and would love DonQ's input.

[Garryl]

Posted the Azure Ascetic... except for the flavor stuff at the end.  I kind of suck at writing that stuff, and would love DonQ's input.

Hey, me too! Maybe we should form a club.

Azure Ascetic

Interesting stuff, but my gut says OP for reasons I'm still puzzling out. Maybe it's the mass sharing of soulmelds with Soulmeld Projection? (Does that ability include chakra binds? If so, does it include the cutting-off of magic item slots?) I dunno.

Improved Spellshape Infusion can give a lot of essentia. Spellshapers generally have more readied formulae than martial adepts have maneuvers, and have an easier time recovering them, too. Using this ability once per round for a whole fight isn't that hard, even if you're blowing mid-high level formulae on it. 4-7 extra essentia is a lot.

Greater Aura Investment needs to clarify the shaper level boost. I originally read it as granting a +1/essentia boost to your formule, but on rereading it, I think it's actually just the flat +1 that ability gives to the essentia capacity. It's supposed to be a bonus equal to the essentia invested, right? If so, it should be clarified.

[DonQuixote]

Didn't have time to actually errata the spellshape attack stuff last night, and I don't really want to change the posts without also changing the PDFs.  I just know I'll forget.

I'll be honest, I don't see a "vs." here.  From what I know, 610 sounds like exactly the sort of thing that the Phyrexians would tame and use.  Remember, they aren't made entirely of metal, but also of compleated flesh.  And 610 sounds like the perfect way to begin compleation of the unwilling.

Well, it's actually going to be more 'inspired' by 610, I'm also going to include some elements from a couple of flash games I play. Two of the raids from WarMetal Tyrant (Specifically Blightbloom and Miasma), as well as The Breach. I'm also going to take quite a few of the features from Ragnorra.

I weep for your players.

Posted the Azure Ascetic... except for the flavor stuff at the end.  I kind of suck at writing that stuff, and would love DonQ's input.

I shall check it out later this evening, when I have access to Magic of Incarnum.  Just warning you that I also suck at that flavor stuff.  Codex II would have come out at least a month earlier if it weren't for that.



Oh hey.  Finally got one of those anchorite ACFs up.  Aspected Meditant.  This was the one that was breaking my brain, since I knew what I wanted.  It just, you know, required coming up with three different effects per circle, two of which needed to scale up as you level.  I'd like to get all eyes possible on this one, since I'm terrified that I broke all balance forever with it.

Edit: Already sneakily changed it.  Scaling makes a bit more sense at 1st, 8th, and 15th, as opposed to 1st, 7th, and 13th.

[Garryl]

Spellshape Monk? Cool.
Just to confirm, the extra abilities on the aspects are by CLASS level, not SHAPER level, right?

Crushing Stone: Odd that fortification should switch to this from Roaring Tide. Make sure to borrow the wording, too, so idiots like me don't take it to mean you only take 90%/70%/50% of the damage dealt by a critical hit (or, worse, take 0.1, 0.3, or 0.5 less damage from any critical hit). Also, until 7th level, is strictly inferior to Fleeting Image (10% chance to negate all of every attack vs. 10% chance to negate part of a large but rare attack).

Deteriorating Corrosion: Danger, Will Robinson! Permanent destruction of magic items and other treasure?

Devouring Shadow: Unlike all others, this one is initially useful for out of combat. All the others are only useful in combat at lower levels.
   Does the fatigue stack with itself?

Glimmering Moon: Does the shaken/frightening stack with itself?

Perfect Freeze: Can you choose not to ice up the place? Freezing the ground around you every round can be a pain while with allies, for instance.

Roaring Tide: Any reason you didn't just grant Evasion/Improved Evasion, instead going with this alternate mechanic that obviates the need for saving throws?

Searing Flame: Should be fly speed equal to your land speed, not last speed. Also, the 13th level ability is kinda sucky, especially compared to Blustering Gale (strictly better), and more so since you're in an ACF that removes your ranged ability so you definitely need real flight.

[DonQuixote]

Issued minor tweaks to address most of your points.  It is notable that I haven't actually defined yet whether these scale with your class level or with your shaper level.  Until you asked, I had just assumed that they'd scale with shaper level, but I'm no longer sure.  On the one hand, I really like giving you the option of taking prestige classes without losing your main gimmick.  On the other hand, I can definitely see the argument for restricting these a bit more, since they are--I think--noticeably more powerful than auras.  Give me a few hours to decide.

Crushing Stone's wording was changed and it was switched to 25%, 50%, 75%.  I moved Fortification here since I wanted the Crushing Stone aspects to be about becoming as hard as a rock, whereas the Roaring Tide stuff is mostly about being fluid and semi-solid.

Deteriorating Corrosion now just makes weapons and armor weaker by means of penalties, which last only until the end of the encounter.

I'm not sure if the first comment on Devouring Shadow is actually a problem.  Is it?  I'm always nervous about fast healing.
Fatigue doesn't stack

Fear doesn't stack.

Perfect Freeze now says that you "can choose to" freeze the area within 10 feet of you.  This also means that larger anchorites don't end up with a useless aspect, should they choose to use it.

For the Roaring Tide one, I wanted to mimic the "Liquid Body" ability that showed up on the Waterveiled Assassin.  This also means that, if you have Evasion/Improved Evasion from another source, you are so beyond good.

Searing Flame's final was simplified to just a flight speed, and the typo was fixed.  While I wanted to give each circle entirely different things for their aspects, I realized midway through trying to come up with a new Searing Flame ability that, as usual, flight required that you have Blustering Gale.  As you pointed out, your lack of ranged capabilities means that you need real flight somehow...and I saw no reason not to give you two options on that front.  I might even go back and change the Blustering Gale aspect, given that they can already fly through formulae.  Not sure yet.

[Garryl]

Scaling by shaper would definitely be too strong. The effects are more powerful than the auras, and are definitely too powerful to give away completely for a 1 level dip. A small bonus for many creatures is nice, but that total bonus condensed onto a single creature is very strong (compare Prayer vs. Divine Power, and see which one people gripe about DMMing).

Waterveiled Assassin? I'm not familiar with that class. Did I miss it?

Deteriorating Corrosion could probably use a slight boost at 15th, now, but it's okay the way it is.

The only reason I brought up Devouring Shadow's Fast Healing is because it's an ability whose primary use is outside of combat, whereas every other circle's 1st level effect is just about only useful inside of combat. It's not over powered or anything by a wide margin (there's a spammable Natural Balance formula that provides healing, and Dragon Shamans have given fast healing to the whole party at level 1 since forever). It's just a case of one of these things being not like the others.

[DonQuixote]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking.  It is now noted that they scale with anchorite level, not shaper level.  I left the save DCs based on shaper level, though--if you want to take levels in a prestige class after you get the ability, I'm not one to stop you.

Waterveiled Assassin is the water elemental Avatar of Elemental Evil from Monster Manual IV.  I stole its Liquid Body ability for my water elemental rewrite, and it felt appropriate here.

I'll think of a slight change for Deteriorating Corrosion.  Not sure what, but something.

Fast healing is one of those weird ones.  I think of it as being linked to combat, as it recovers hit points.  While fast healing 1 is only one hit point a round, you also have maybe ten or so hit points.  I can also see that you'd recover most of your hit points out of combat, though.  Hrm.  I'll probably leave it as-is, since it feels like a nice fit to me.

[sirpercival]

Interesting stuff, but my gut says OP for reasons I'm still puzzling out. Maybe it's the mass sharing of soulmelds with Soulmeld Projection? (Does that ability include chakra binds? If so, does it include the cutting-off of magic item slots?) I dunno.

I'll clarify that you don't get the chakra binds, just the base effect.

Improved Spellshape Infusion can give a lot of essentia. Spellshapers generally have more readied formulae than martial adepts have maneuvers, and have an easier time recovering them, too. Using this ability once per round for a whole fight isn't that hard, even if you're blowing mid-high level formulae on it. 4-7 extra essentia is a lot.

I'll drop it to half formula level instead.

Greater Aura Investment needs to clarify the shaper level boost. I originally read it as granting a +1/essentia boost to your formule, but on rereading it, I think it's actually just the flat +1 that ability gives to the essentia capacity. It's supposed to be a bonus equal to the essentia invested, right? If so, it should be clarified.

That I think is actually one of the most poorly-worded class features I've ever written, at the very least by crap-density.  I'll try again.

[DonQuixote]

Posted the errata to the spellshape attacks.  Damage reduction is now always a thing.

Based wholly on my meager understanding of incarnum, Azure Ascetic looks interesting.  I have to agree with pretty much every point Garryl's raised, mind you.

[Garryl]

Soulmeld Projection: How much essentia is effectively invested in the projected soulmeld when determining the bonuses it grants? It's not actually shaping the soulmeld for everyone else, it's just granting the benefits of it, right? So it should grant the benefits of however much essentia you have invested, then?

[sirpercival]

Based wholly on my meager understanding of incarnum, Azure Ascetic looks interesting.  I have to agree with pretty much every point Garryl's raised, mind you.

I did make those fixes, hopefully they helped.

Soulmeld Projection: How much essentia is effectively invested in the projected soulmeld when determining the bonuses it grants? It's not actually shaping the soulmeld for everyone else, it's just granting the benefits of it, right? So it should grant the benefits of however much essentia you have invested, then?

Correct, that was the intention.  Is that too much?

[Garryl]

No, it should be fine. A little on the strong side with good choices, but it's a class feature so it should be useful. I just wanted the clarification.

[sirpercival]

Sweet.  Any other beef with the class?  Does it still seem OP, with the edits I made?