Discussion and Suggestion Thread

[DonQuixote]

Yeah, I think I'm going to go with VennDygrem on this one.  Thing is, it's mostly a fluff-based subtype gain--I don't really see much to be gained by getting it at 1st level, and it fits the flavor much more at 10th level.

I may change my mind.  The dragonheart adept and the sublime shaper are also, technically, going to get a revision pass--don't know if I'll actually change anything, but I'll at least look--since they're going to be included in the Appendix on spellshapers and martial adepts.  Said appendix will also include things like a variant that lets martial adepts take incantations.  Possibly other things.  Who knows?

[VennDygrem]

Well, I'd prefer if they got it at level 1, since it would help me in SirP's game, and it also makes sense with the Draconic abilities they're beginning to gain. However, I was just playing Devil's Advocate, explaining where I could see contention to the idea.

So all I did was spell my own doom!

[DonQuixote]

Well, I'll be honest, that was just me seeing an excuse to be lazy when you were opposed.  I'll give it an actual look at this point.

Edit: Yeah, sure, why not.

[VennDygrem]

Thing is, it's mostly a flavor thing. There are hardly any mechanical benefits. Much like the Earth subtype, or Augmented (Whatever).

[Nanshork]

Thing is, it's mostly a flavor thing. There are hardly any mechanical benefits. Much like the Earth subtype, or Augmented (Whatever).

It can allow you to get some feats/ prestige classes.

[VennDygrem]

There are really very few feats or prestige classes it truly qualifies you for, in the grand scheme of things. Most of the things it qualifies you for, you already get through DhA levels anyway (such as the dragon wings or dragon tail feats), and if your DM won't let you retrain those feats later on when you get the abilities from the class, then you're out of luck.

Besides, if a DfA or similar class can access any of those things at early levels, I don't see why a DhA shouldn't.

Just my two-cents.

[DonQuixote]

Well, as I tried to hint three hours ago, I already changed it.

[sirpercival]

Yay!  Mechanical coherency!  Lol.  My players shall thank you

[Nanshork]

There are really very few feats or prestige classes it truly qualifies you for, in the grand scheme of things. Most of the things it qualifies you for, you already get through DhA levels anyway (such as the dragon wings or dragon tail feats), and if your DM won't let you retrain those feats later on when you get the abilities from the class, then you're out of luck.

Besides, if a DfA or similar class can access any of those things at early levels, I don't see why a DhA shouldn't.

Just my two-cents.

I didn't say it could do a lot, just that it could qualify you for something.   

[DonQuixote]

There are really very few feats or prestige classes it truly qualifies you for, in the grand scheme of things. Most of the things it qualifies you for, you already get through DhA levels anyway (such as the dragon wings or dragon tail feats), and if your DM won't let you retrain those feats later on when you get the abilities from the class, then you're out of luck.

Besides, if a DfA or similar class can access any of those things at early levels, I don't see why a DhA shouldn't.

Just my two-cents.

I didn't say it could do a lot, just that it could qualify you for something.   

True, but--as VennDygrem pointed out--there's very little brokenness in getting it early.  Especially since the Exhaled Barrier feat won't work with formulae, which would have been the most concerning combo.  Entangling Exhalation is still somewhat concerning, but I'm going to roll with it unless it proves to actually be truly problematic.

[phaedrusxy]

There are really very few feats or prestige classes it truly qualifies you for, in the grand scheme of things. Most of the things it qualifies you for, you already get through DhA levels anyway (such as the dragon wings or dragon tail feats), and if your DM won't let you retrain those feats later on when you get the abilities from the class, then you're out of luck.

Besides, if a DfA or similar class can access any of those things at early levels, I don't see why a DhA shouldn't.

Just my two-cents.

I didn't say it could do a lot, just that it could qualify you for something.   

True, but--as VennDygrem pointed out--there's very little brokenness in getting it early.  Especially since the Exhaled Barrier feat won't work with formulae, which would have been the most concerning combo.  Entangling Exhalation is still somewhat concerning, but I'm going to roll with it unless it proves to actually be truly problematic.

All you need for Entangling Exhalation is a breath weapon, right? So that's not really an issue.

[Nanshork]

There are really very few feats or prestige classes it truly qualifies you for, in the grand scheme of things. Most of the things it qualifies you for, you already get through DhA levels anyway (such as the dragon wings or dragon tail feats), and if your DM won't let you retrain those feats later on when you get the abilities from the class, then you're out of luck.

Besides, if a DfA or similar class can access any of those things at early levels, I don't see why a DhA shouldn't.

Just my two-cents.

I didn't say it could do a lot, just that it could qualify you for something.   

True, but--as VennDygrem pointed out--there's very little brokenness in getting it early.  Especially since the Exhaled Barrier feat won't work with formulae, which would have been the most concerning combo.  Entangling Exhalation is still somewhat concerning, but I'm going to roll with it unless it proves to actually be truly problematic.

You misunderstand me.  I'm 100% for getting it at first level, I was just making a point.

[DonQuixote]

All you need for Entangling Exhalation is a breath weapon, right? So that's not really an issue.

A breath weapon and the dragonblood subtype.

You misunderstand me.  I'm 100% for getting it at first level, I was just making a point.

Fair enough!

[VennDygrem]

I don't think it's really anything of concern. Assuming a DhA wants to use Entangling Exhalation, they're using a single breath attack without using a major formula (they can obviously still manage any minor formulae), though I honestly don't think it's any more powerful than most 1st level major formulae. The only difference is they don't need to recover entangling exhalation. However,  they still need to wait 1d4 rounds to use their bw again. It pretty much evens out.

[DonQuixote]

...hrm.  My original interpretation of how the feat would work didn't actually preclude you from using it with major formulae.  It just says that you make the choice when you use your breath weapon.  Exhaled Barrier doesn't work because it specifically calls out that it just deals the damage normally dealt by your breath weapon--with no loophole into which you can insert formulae.  Entangling Exhalation, however, just notes that your breath weapon deals half its normal damage and entangles creatures in its area.

I'm going to go with the "Can't let you combine that with major formulae, Star Fox!" ruling, for the sake of my sanity.  I just hadn't realized that there was a case to be made there.

[DonQuixote]

Trying like hell to come up with a new name for spellshape champion.  God, I'm bad at naming things.

To give you an idea of how bad I am at naming, the candidate currently in the lead is "thaumahos" (plural "thaumahoi"), a portmanteau of the Greek words for "miracle" (thauma) and "gladiator" (monomahos).

Any suggestions for this one?

[sirpercival]

Trying like hell to come up with a new name for spellshape champion.  God, I'm bad at naming things.

To give you an idea of how bad I am at naming, the candidate currently in the lead is "thaumahos" (plural "thaumahoi"), a portmanteau of the Greek words for "miracle" (thauma) and "gladiator" (monomahos).

Any suggestions for this one?

Formulon, though that sounds more like some kind of monster.

[DonQuixote]

"Fear the wrath of the formulon!"

(click to show/hide)

 

Anyway, I think I can see how you got there--"formula" and "myrmidon"--but "formulon" does sound kind of weird.  I'll throw it into the pile of things to consider, but no promises.

[Nanshork]

Trying like hell to come up with a new name for spellshape champion.  God, I'm bad at naming things.

To give you an idea of how bad I am at naming, the candidate currently in the lead is "thaumahos" (plural "thaumahoi"), a portmanteau of the Greek words for "miracle" (thauma) and "gladiator" (monomahos).

Any suggestions for this one?

Formulon, though that sounds more like some kind of monster.

It makes me think of Voltron.

[VennDygrem]

Hmm, I was away from book at the time, I thought it was a special standard action or something. My bad.

Regardless, why do you need to rename Spellshape Champion? Just for something more unique to the class?