Discussion and Suggestion Thread

[DonQuixote]

Because I dislike the name, and assumed that everyone else thought it was equally bad.

Is this not the case?

[sirpercival]

It's not terrible...


(You know you like Thaumarai)

[DonQuixote]

If people don't actually dislike spellshape champion that much, I'll probably go the lazy route and leave it as-is.

(Thaumurai is the best.)

Edit: Mild errata to Rite of Return.  Rather than "I expect energy draining to play a pivotal role in my demise," the example of an acceptable set of circumstances now reads: "I expect large quantities of cheese to play a pivotal role in my demise."

[Amechra]

I love Thaumurai as a name...

Though if you want a less silly name, how about Spellform Knight?

Or Archanomach Champion?

[Garryl]

Arcanomach Champion sounds more like a PrC. I'm thinking melee based time manipulation.

[DonQuixote]

Arcanomach Champion sounds more like a PrC. I'm thinking melee based time manipulation.

...well, I guess I know one of the new prestige classes I'm going to write...

Also, I've finished the revised skeletons for impulse mage, savant, and spellsage.  Those are the only ones that are getting overhauled enough to deserve new skeletons.  I'm not sure whether I'm going to start writing the revised versions now, or whether I'm going to figure out everything I need to do for the revision before sitting down and writing it out.

[sirpercival]

Do it piecemeal so it doesn't seem so daunting.

[Nanshork]

Do it piecemeal so it doesn't seem so daunting.

+1

[DonQuixote]

Seems like a solid idea.  I'll still have to do all the relevant alternative class features, racial substitution levels, and feats at the same time, so nothing ends up disjoined.

Also, just so everyone knows--not that this is particularly surprising--but these changes are not going to be put into the Codex I and Codex II PDFs.  Since the goal is to aggregate everything into one revised PDF, I really don't want to go through the pain and hassle of updating the old ones, too.

This does carry the advantage that, if you're currently playing a character, you don't have to rewrite the character sheet.  The old PDFs will remain available until I have completed the behemoth, so they'll remain available as a resource for the current builds.

If your elemental adept is still using a smite ability, though, you should probably update her sheet.

[Nanshork]

Sounds like a plan.

[Amechra]

What if she's multiclassed into Paladin, for reasons?

[DonQuixote]

What if she's multiclassed into Paladin, for reasons?

Bah.  You know perfectly well I was referring to the original form of the Wrath of Elements ability.

My God, the first version of the spellshapers was so...different.

Edit: Okay, so, I've sketched out all the changes I have to make for the Stoichen, Elemental Adept, and all the alternative class features and feats therein.  I'm starting here because they have some of the fewest changes to do.  I'll start writing tomorrow night.

The only thing that I have for you tonight is some mild Eye of Flame errata, clarifying how the sensor works.  Technically, most of this is in the description of divination (scrying) spells, but it's nice to have it on paper.

[phaedrusxy]

So what are the requirements to use a Spellheart item? For example, if I'm playing a multi-classed spellshaper, and buy a Spellheart item with a 3rd level formula in it, but my shaper level is only 3, can I use the formula in the item? What if I am not even a spellshaper?

[Garryl]

Finally finished perusing the remaining incantations. Didn't see any problems, except that this makes spellshaping too damn cool.

[Bauglir]

So what are the requirements to use a Spellheart item? For example, if I'm playing a multi-classed spellshaper, and buy a Spellheart item with a 3rd level formula in it, but my shaper level is only 3, can I use the formula in the item? What if I am not even a spellshaper?

Based on a similar question I had a while ago with Crown of Searing Flames-style items*, these should all work just fine. The Spellheart item description takes care of the stuff that most classes specify (recovery method for instance, which is a non-thing for these) and sets the SL and DC, as far as I can tell. The gp cost should keep them from being used casually before they're level-appropriate abilities to have, I think. I'm no DonQuixote, so this obviously not an official reply, but just an educated guess.

*The answer I got was that you could learn something even if it was too high level for you to learn normally, because the wording bypasses the normal formula-learning rules. Again, the gp cost should keep it balanced - I was only able to do this because of a +4 LA putting my wealth far ahead of my shaper level.

[DonQuixote]

Finally finished perusing the remaining incantations. Didn't see any problems, except that this makes spellshaping too damn cool.

I apologize for nothing.

Well, except for the time I nearly knocked out my girlfriend's tooth.  I apologize for that.

So what are the requirements to use a Spellheart item? For example, if I'm playing a multi-classed spellshaper, and buy a Spellheart item with a 3rd level formula in it, but my shaper level is only 3, can I use the formula in the item? What if I am not even a spellshaper?

Based on a similar question I had a while ago with Crown of Searing Flames-style items*, these should all work just fine. The Spellheart item description takes care of the stuff that most classes specify (recovery method for instance, which is a non-thing for these) and sets the SL and DC, as far as I can tell. The gp cost should keep them from being used casually before they're level-appropriate abilities to have, I think. I'm no DonQuixote, so this obviously not an official reply, but just an educated guess.

*The answer I got was that you could learn something even if it was too high level for you to learn normally, because the wording bypasses the normal formula-learning rules. Again, the gp cost should keep it balanced - I was only able to do this because of a +4 LA putting my wealth far ahead of my shaper level.

This is correct.  Spellheart Weapons are actually intended primarily so that non-spellshapers can stab with magic.

[phaedrusxy]

This is correct.  Spellheart Weapons are actually intended primarily so that non-spellshapers can stab with magic.

Iiiinteresting... Thanks.

Edit: More questions: So if I'm a spellshaper, and I have a spellheart weapon, can I use my own formulae through that weapon while channeling its spellshape attack? So let's say I have a spellheart weapon with a 1st level Searing Flames formula in it (let's say Smoking Cloud). I also know some other Searing Flames formulae, like Impact. Can I shape Impact through my spellheart weapon while channeling my fireblast spellshape attack (derived from the weapon) through it?

To be more specific, my character is a dragonheart adept who can't yet normally channel spellshape attacks through his weapons. So this could potentially give him the ability to shape formula through a spellshape attack while his breath weapon is recharging.

Since the spellshape weapon gives me knowledge of a formula from that circle, and access to the circle's spellshape attack, I could also use it to fulfill the prerequisites of learning other formulae, like say from a Crown of Searing Flames, right?

[DonQuixote]

Edit: More questions: So if I'm a spellshaper, and I have a spellheart weapon, can I use my own formulae through that weapon while channeling its spellshape attack? So let's say I have a spellheart weapon with a 1st level Searing Flames formula in it (let's say Smoking Cloud). I also know some other Searing Flames formulae, like Impact. Can I shape Impact through my spellheart weapon while channeling my fireblast spellshape attack (derived from the weapon) through it?

Yes.

To be more specific, my character is a dragonheart adept who can't yet normally channel spellshape attacks through his weapons. So this could potentially give him the ability to shape formula through a spellshape attack while his breath weapon is recharging.

Hoh-ho!  Cunning.  Note that this also lets elemental adepts take advantage of that 3/4 base attack bonus, if they want a melee build.  Not necessarily optimized, but the mace-wielding shaman is possible.

Since the spellshape weapon gives me knowledge of a formula from that circle, and access to the circle's spellshape attack, I could also use it to fulfill the prerequisites of learning other formulae, like say from a Crown of Searing Flames, right?

Nope.  The spellheart items let you shape the formulae "as if" you knew them normally.  It doesn't actually grant you knowledge of the spellshape attack or formula, so no dice.

[Bauglir]

So I've looked through the incantations, and I've got a couple of thoughts. Mostly, some of them seem counter to the project's stated goals, and may be clearly better than other choices. In particular:

Corrosive Touch has an ability that's specifically useful in combat, which is odd considering the goal. While the level you get it at means you'll rarely be encountering non-magical armor on any foes you care about, it might be a good idea to remove that use just to make it fit the concept of incantations better.

Rite of Return provides a get out of death free card under limited circumstances. That's fine, but it's also a combat buff since it means you suffer no consequences from a death. You might add a 1 minute delay between death and resurrection to resolve this, since that should take you out of combat and still allow you to return in a timely fashion from a character's perspective.

Invade Mind doesn't go against the goals, it's just insanely good. This is a consequence of modify memory, but you might want to institute a limit on how often it can be used on a single target since the optimal first use is to implant a memory of yourself being hired to perform some magical healing or enchanting service on your target (making every further use of this ability expected and thereby making everyone you can get to fail a single Will save your eternal mind slave).

Fortify Mind provides an excellent combat buff in the form of immunity to mind-affecting effects. Since its duration is 24 hours, I'm not giving it a pass on being non-combat like Illuminating Gaze. You may wish to remove that immunity and leave just the immunity to divinations, which isn't nearly as impressive in combat.

Freedom of the Storm provides another combat buff staple, in the form of freedom of movement. Again, this option clearly stands out for the combat optimizer. You might encourage its uses primarily in non-combat situations by making each use of free movement require a standard action before proceeding (so you could use a standard action to automatically escape a grapple, or allow your next move action to proceed normally underwater, and so on).

[DonQuixote]

So, I have applied the revisions to the stoichen, elemental adept, and everything in-between.  There may be slight confusion around the wording of Shaman of the Elements, which now talks about numena, but I'll just tell you now that "numen" is the new name for "spellshape aura."  I'm going to move the information on individual numena to their specific circles fairly soon (it's the next thing on the list), and I'll be adding the rules on numena to the central rules chapter as soon as I've typed that up.

Corrosive Touch has an ability that's specifically useful in combat, which is odd considering the goal. While the level you get it at means you'll rarely be encountering non-magical armor on any foes you care about, it might be a good idea to remove that use just to make it fit the concept of incantations better.

I'm not going to do anything to this one quite yet, as I'd much rather just find a different effect.  I don't really like the fact that all the Deteriorating Corrosion incantations are focused on destroying things--I just couldn't think of anything else for acid.  I'll poke around for something different.

Rite of Return provides a get out of death free card under limited circumstances. That's fine, but it's also a combat buff since it means you suffer no consequences from a death. You might add a 1 minute delay between death and resurrection to resolve this, since that should take you out of combat and still allow you to return in a timely fashion from a character's perspective.

A one-minute waiting time has been added.  Beware the spawncampers.

Invade Mind doesn't go against the goals, it's just insanely good. This is a consequence of modify memory, but you might want to institute a limit on how often it can be used on a single target since the optimal first use is to implant a memory of yourself being hired to perform some magical healing or enchanting service on your target (making every further use of this ability expected and thereby making everyone you can get to fail a single Will save your eternal mind slave).

Hrm.  I'd like to figure out a way to handle this other than just imposing a hard cap on how many times you can mess with one person.  But wouldn't you have to add a new memory of being hired each time?  I don't care if I remember hiring a guy to heal my broken leg--I'm going to start getting suspicious if he's healing me three times a day.

Fortify Mind provides an excellent combat buff in the form of immunity to mind-affecting effects. Since its duration is 24 hours, I'm not giving it a pass on being non-combat like Illuminating Gaze. You may wish to remove that immunity and leave just the immunity to divinations, which isn't nearly as impressive in combat.

Done and done.

Freedom of the Storm provides another combat buff staple, in the form of freedom of movement. Again, this option clearly stands out for the combat optimizer. You might encourage its uses primarily in non-combat situations by making each use of free movement require a standard action before proceeding (so you could use a standard action to automatically escape a grapple, or allow your next move action to proceed normally underwater, and so on).

This is another one I might end up just replacing, since it has fewer utility uses than combat uses.  I'll poke around here, too.