Author Topic: Discussion and Suggestion Thread  (Read 224314 times)

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #560 on: August 19, 2012, 02:13:49 PM »
Nope.  The spellheart items let you shape the formulae "as if" you knew them normally.  It doesn't actually grant you knowledge of the spellshape attack or formula, so no dice.
Bah, isn't that kind of splitting hairs? "As if" usually means "it works exactly like X, except where specified otherwise". 

And anyway, what's the harm in letting this qualify you for things? It would let someone pick up a few spellshape formulas via items and feats without actually dipping into the classes that grant them, which is certainly possible with standard magic items. I don't see what the harm is. You can already do this via feats, I know, but why not items? After all, you've already put more restrictions on the items like the Crown of Searing Flames than the original ToB items had, anyway.

Anyway, I think you should specifically say it doesn't count towards meeting prereqs if you don't want it to. Otherwise, it is ambiguous at best as written.
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #561 on: August 19, 2012, 02:39:21 PM »
Elemental Adept changes: Three associated circles (you decided to choose your second associated circle, I approve), automatic incantation access for your element, and then adjusted ACFs.

Did I miss anything?

Also, do you gain the spellshape attack for the associated circle that you didn't pick?

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #562 on: August 19, 2012, 02:55:47 PM »
For Corrosive Touch's replacement, maybe some sort of divination triggered by getting hopped up on acid fumes?

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #563 on: August 19, 2012, 03:05:20 PM »
I apologize. I looked for an answer to this, as I suspect it has already been asked, but couldn't find one. How often can a formula gained from an item (Crown of Searing Flames, or Spellheart armor) be used outside of combat? I expect this works like the related Tome of Battle items, but I don't actually know how those work outside of combat, either...
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Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #564 on: August 19, 2012, 05:40:46 PM »
Bah, isn't that kind of splitting hairs? "As if" usually means "it works exactly like X, except where specified otherwise".

Actually, in this case, not really.  You can shape them as if you knew them normally.  It discusses the shaping of formulae, not the knowledge of them. 

And anyway, what's the harm in letting this qualify you for things? It would let someone pick up a few spellshape formulas via items and feats without actually dipping into the classes that grant them, which is certainly possible with standard magic items. I don't see what the harm is. You can already do this via feats, I know, but why not items? After all, you've already put more restrictions on the items like the Crown of Searing Flames than the original ToB items had, anyway.

Thing is, I'm actually not a fan of being able to qualify for things using magic items.  In my mind, qualification for feats and prestige classes should be based off of your character's capabilities, not the capabilities of their magic items.  I'm just...irked by the idea.

The reason that the {Equipment} of {Circle} items are more restricted than their Tome of Battle equivalents is twofold.

The first reason is that, unlike maneuvers, many formulae require that you have access to a specific attack form.  You can initiate Stone Dragon maneuvers and Shadow Hand maneuvers with the same sword, but a Crushing Stone-centered spellshaper who picks up a Devouring Shadow formula may not be able to shape it.  To avoid weird situations like that, I chose to impose more restrictions.

The second reason is that, despite my initial plans, spellshapers are more powerful than martial adepts.  It's not a difference on the scale of fighter vs. wizard, but it's there.  Restrictions allow me to slightly muzzle things.

It is worth noting, of course, that I just started a system-wide revision, so changes may be applied.  Especially since I've lately found myself disliking the model currently offered by spellshaping scrolls and {Equipment} of {Circle} items.

Anyway, I think you should specifically say it doesn't count towards meeting prereqs if you don't want it to. Otherwise, it is ambiguous at best as written.

It shall be done!  (When I get there in the revision.)

I apologize. I looked for an answer to this, as I suspect it has already been asked, but couldn't find one. How often can a formula gained from an item (Crown of Searing Flames, or Spellheart armor) be used outside of combat? I expect this works like the related Tome of Battle items, but I don't actually know how those work outside of combat, either...

Actually, the {Equipment} of {Circle} items flat-out grant you the knowledge of the formula in question for as long as you wear them.  You prepare it and shape it normally, so you can shape that formula as often as you could shape any other.



Elemental Adept changes: Three associated circles (you decided to choose your second associated circle, I approve), automatic incantation access for your element, and then adjusted ACFs.

Did I miss anything?

Blessing of the Elements was moved to 18th level, while Master's Adaptation was added at 19th level.  It is no longer the case that a 17th-level elemental adept is filled with existential uncertainty about the next two levels in his class.

Also, do you gain the spellshape attack for the associated circle that you didn't pick?

You do not.  I completely changed the wording on the elemental adept's "spellshape attacks" entry, bringing it in line with the standard.  You gain access to the spellshape attacks associated with the circles to which you have access.

This was done for two reasons.  First, since you now choose from two secondary circles, I couldn't just tell you which attack you got based on your chosen element.  Secondly, the old wording had you learning the spellshape attack from the element opposing your chosen element--even though you didn't have access to that circle.  This change removes that silliness, while preventing new silliness.  Having two spellshape attacks from circles to which you don't have access felt weird to me.



For Corrosive Touch's replacement, maybe some sort of divination triggered by getting hopped up on acid fumes?

Not a bad idea.  Let's see what I find.



So, slight changes to the plan!  Rather than moving numena to their circles first, I'm going to rewrite the Rules of Spellshaping section before anything else.  Then, I'll be moving numena and incantations to their appropriate circles.  Which brings us to a point of uncertainty.  There are now several different types of abilities--four, in fact--and I'm trying to figure out how to organize them.  My gut instinct was:

(click to show/hide)

Does that look like it works?  I'm also trying to figure out whether I should include an incantation list in the style of the existing formula list.  Thing is, you learn them so differently that I'm not sure if it makes sense.

Anyway, general game plan is:
  • Revised rules chapter
  • Numena and incantations moved to the appropriate circles
  • Caymir and anchorite revisions
  • Spellsoul armor and spellshape champion revisions
  • Masked one and savant revisions
  • Living spellshape and spellsage revisions
  • Cambian and impulse mage revisions
  • Everything else
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #565 on: August 19, 2012, 05:47:32 PM »
Thanks for your answers. Sorry to keep bugging you but... what about using the Spellheart items outside of combat? Those are normally only 1x/encounter, but how long does it take for it to refresh outside of an encounter? I am considering using one for a utility-type of power (the one that lets you see in the dark, I forget the name), and it will almost certainly come up.
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Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #566 on: August 19, 2012, 05:49:23 PM »
I'm going to say that falls under the "End of Encounter" rules on formula recovery.

Quote
In the case of a long, drawn-out series of fights, or if a spellshaper is out of combat entirely, assume that if a character makes no attacks of any kind, shapes no new formulae, and is not targeted by any enemy attacks for 1 full minute, he can recover all expended formulae.  If a character can’t avoid attacking or being attacked for 1 minute, he can’t automatically recover his formulae and must use special actions to do so instead.
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #567 on: August 19, 2012, 11:15:23 PM »
I'm going to say that falls under the "End of Encounter" rules on formula recovery.

Quote
In the case of a long, drawn-out series of fights, or if a spellshaper is out of combat entirely, assume that if a character makes no attacks of any kind, shapes no new formulae, and is not targeted by any enemy attacks for 1 full minute, he can recover all expended formulae.  If a character can’t avoid attacking or being attacked for 1 minute, he can’t automatically recover his formulae and must use special actions to do so instead.
That's great. So if I take the one that gives fast healing 1 for the whole party, that's fast healing for 5 out of every 10 rounds out of combat. As a bonus, it also gives immunity to poison and disease, and +1 to a couple of things (AC and saves?). I'd say that's a damn good buy for 1500 gp. :D
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Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #568 on: August 19, 2012, 11:21:13 PM »
Well, not exactly immunity, if I recall correctly.  Delaying, certainly.

And now you've gone and worried me over abuse of that price tag.  Is that too low of a cost?
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline Bauglir

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #569 on: August 19, 2012, 11:26:58 PM »
You might impose a soft cap on the number of uses of Invade Mind in the form of the following clause at the end: "Each time you use this incantation on a particular target, that target's memories inevitably get more muddled and confused to an outside viewer, as they're shuffled around and modified. A creature gets a +2 bonus on its saving throw for each use of this incantation it has previously failed its saving throw against, whether from a particular spellshaper or not."

You could just implant a memory of your being hired as a "physician" to cast preventative restorations and other protections to ensure "optimal health" or something else that would make you a legitimate long-term companion. The best targets for these sorts of shenanigans would probably be able to afford it (though they would probably have a good Will save and effective guards as well, in all fairness).

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #570 on: August 19, 2012, 11:58:01 PM »
You might impose a soft cap on the number of uses of Invade Mind in the form of the following clause at the end: "Each time you use this incantation on a particular target, that target's memories inevitably get more muddled and confused to an outside viewer, as they're shuffled around and modified. A creature gets a +2 bonus on its saving throw for each use of this incantation it has previously failed its saving throw against, whether from a particular spellshaper or not."

Added.

You could just implant a memory of your being hired as a "physician" to cast preventative restorations and other protections to ensure "optimal health" or something else that would make you a legitimate long-term companion. The best targets for these sorts of shenanigans would probably be able to afford it (though they would probably have a good Will save and effective guards as well, in all fairness).

See, that's the sort of cunning interplay between DM and player that can make for great sessions.  Especially with the new bonus on saving throws, I think I'm going to let it lie.



The first third of the rules chapter has been updated for the revised spellshapers.  The only things that haven't been updated are the Formula Description section and the Learning Formulae section.  Not much has changed in either of those.  Though I will eventually be revising them, I want to get the base classes done, first.

Incidentally, I got all the numena and incantations into their respective circles.  Huzzah, centralization of information!
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #571 on: August 20, 2012, 12:19:01 AM »
You might impose a soft cap on the number of uses of Invade Mind in the form of the following clause at the end: "Each time you use this incantation on a particular target, that target's memories inevitably get more muddled and confused to an outside viewer, as they're shuffled around and modified. A creature gets a +2 bonus on its saving throw for each use of this incantation it has previously failed its saving throw against, whether from a particular spellshaper or not."

This would mean that if you have someone you trust able to Invade Mind you, you can essentially immunize yourself against that specific invocation. I'm not sure if that's really stupid or really awesome. Probably the latter, although I doubt you intended it that way.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #572 on: August 20, 2012, 12:20:17 AM »
Well, not exactly immunity, if I recall correctly.  Delaying, certainly.

And now you've gone and worried me over abuse of that price tag.  Is that too low of a cost?
Well, it's the same price as two wands of Lesser Vigor (1000 hit points of healing), or two belts of healing (54 healing per day). As another comparison, it's half the cost of a Crown of White Ravens, which can also provide (practically) unlimited healing, if the DM will let you use Crusader's Strike while "sparring", etc. So it's pretty cheap, but maybe not too overpowered.

If anything is to blame here, I think perhaps it is that Astral Essence formula. As much as I hate to say it (as I plan to use it...), it might be too good for 1st level.
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Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #573 on: August 20, 2012, 12:24:44 AM »
Well, it's the same price as two wands of Lesser Vigor (1000 hit points of healing), or two belts of healing (54 healing per day). As another comparison, it's half the cost of a Crown of White Ravens, which can also provide (practically) unlimited healing, if the DM will let you use Crusader's Strike while "sparring", etc. So it's pretty cheap, but maybe not too overpowered.

If anything is to blame here, I think perhaps it is that Astral Essence formula. As much as I hate to say it (as I plan to use it...), it might be too good for 1st level.

Hrm.  I'll look at changing that when I get to the circle revisions.
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline Bauglir

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #574 on: August 20, 2012, 12:36:56 PM »
You might impose a soft cap on the number of uses of Invade Mind in the form of the following clause at the end: "Each time you use this incantation on a particular target, that target's memories inevitably get more muddled and confused to an outside viewer, as they're shuffled around and modified. A creature gets a +2 bonus on its saving throw for each use of this incantation it has previously failed its saving throw against, whether from a particular spellshaper or not."

This would mean that if you have someone you trust able to Invade Mind you, you can essentially immunize yourself against that specific invocation. I'm not sure if that's really stupid or really awesome. Probably the latter, although I doubt you intended it that way.
That was actually an intended side-effect, but it's subtle enough and requires enough trust that it's actually something that won't come up in game often with NPCs. Though it might need a clause about not being able to use it on yourself.

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #575 on: August 20, 2012, 12:59:54 PM »
That was actually an intended side-effect, but it's subtle enough and requires enough trust that it's actually something that won't come up in game often with NPCs. Though it might need a clause about not being able to use it on yourself.

I dunno, the idea of taking the incantation to protect yourself from its own effects isn't actually that bad of a consequence.

Plus, I must admit that I love the deliciously depressing idea of a spellshaper who, having lived a life filled with despair, slowly modifies his memories, bit by bit, until he's fooled himself into thinking that he's happy.
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline Amechra

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #576 on: August 20, 2012, 02:34:08 PM »
Is it OK if I call Invade Mind Golden Years Tarnished Black or Glories that Never Were?

Just because that one ability replicates my favorite charm tree in Exalted.

Love.
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Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #577 on: August 20, 2012, 04:01:08 PM »
Is it OK if I call Invade Mind Golden Years Tarnished Black or Glories that Never Were?

Just because that one ability replicates my favorite charm tree in Exalted.

Love.

Er, sure?  I can't say that I know much about Exalted--except for what I'm able to pick up from Sean's stories--but you can call things whatever you like.



So, I swapped the order in which spellshaping powers are presented.  It now goes:
  • Spellshape Attack
  • Numen
  • Incantations
  • Formulae
I think that works, but if I've horribly offended anyone, let me know.

I've also figured out most of the caymir and anchorite revisions.  While I'll be supplying the anchorite with its third ACF during this revision, I'm not going to write new feats until I get to the Feat revision.
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #578 on: August 20, 2012, 10:17:02 PM »
Revisions up for caymir, anchorites, and spellshape champions.

The 1/day speak with animals that caymir had has been replaced by a wonky ability that lets you use Wild Empathy to gain the ability to speak with one animal.  I feel it makes more sense flavor-wise, and it lets you build connections with specific animals.  I suspect it's a wash, in terms of balance.

Anchorite is now officially monk-mode.  The old version is available as the Numinous Anchorite ACF, which replaced Aspected Meditant.  Meanwhile, the new Wild Ascetic ACF lets you play a spellshaping druid.  Well, druid-monk, but who's counting?

Caymir anchorites lost their 1st-level substitution.  Everything else stayed.  They're still pretty decent trades for energy resistance.

Spellshape champions had very few changes--I killed Mage-Warrior's Steed and gave Spellshape Paragons the ability to shape their chosen circle's incantations.
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline pppp

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #579 on: August 21, 2012, 05:08:39 AM »
Meanwhile, the new Wild Ascetic ACF lets you play a spellshaping druid.
Very, very cool change. Shameful that wild ascetic anchorite cannot pick Glimmering Moon circle. For me it doesn't make sense flavor-wise, because lycanthropy and madness are quite 'druidic'.

I killed Mage-Warrior's Steed.
Why?