Author Topic: Discussion and Suggestion Thread  (Read 224407 times)

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #660 on: November 15, 2012, 06:02:23 PM »
So, I've been continuing to set up the formatting of this document--everything is going to be so much easier this time around, what with alternating page information, outline mode, and cross-referencing--and I've imported all the completed revisions into the document.  Putting me halfway through the rules chapter.

As a part of formatting, I tested the setup for circles, which is working beautifully.  This did, however, mean that I had to import a circle!  I went with Searing Flame, since--in case you hadn't noticed--I like fire.  Consequently, Searing Flame has received its revision pass!  It...didn't actually entail much.  Blast Wave is now just an area effect, rather than being attached to fireblast.  Same thing with Wildfire.  I also tweaked the numen slightly, so it now mentions "weaponlike effects" instead of "damaging spells with a single target."  Cleaner, and less open to abuse.

Incidentally, Searing Flame takes up five pages in the new format.  By contrast, it took up six pages in Codex I--which didn't include numena or incantations.  Hooray for space efficiency!

Next thing on my plate is to finish up the "Formula and Incantation Descriptions" and "Acquiring Spellshaping Powers" sections of Chapter 5.  After that, it'll be on to Chapter 6 and the rest of the circle revisions.  The circles will be revised in this order:
(click to show/hide)

If your favorite circle wasn't on that list, that just means that it doesn't have any formulae that I feel a burning need to revise.  Any changes to such a circle will most likely be merely cosmetic.

What changes will be made to the other circles?  Only the spoiler can say!
(click to show/hide)

Now, these changes are taken directly from my notes, and thus feature a lot of highly technical verbiage.  "Axe" means that the formula will be destroyed and erased from existence, to be replaced by something new.  "Rebuild" means that I like parts of the concept, but am unhappy with the current implementation.  Expect something similar, but somewhat different.  "Clean up" means that I think things could use some tightening up, but don't expect to pour much original thinking into changing the formula.  "Detach" simply means that I don't think the effect should be delivered by a single-target attack.  Everything else should be fairly self-explanatory.

Obviously, there's a disclaimer here.  I might later decide that I am happy with certain things as they are, and I might just as easily decide to change things not mentioned here.  These are just the things that stood out to me on a quick pass of all the formulae.

I will not be offering a prediction of time on this one.  That would just be asking for trouble.
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #661 on: November 15, 2012, 06:18:14 PM »
Remove Buer? Is that code for axing healing effects?

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #662 on: November 15, 2012, 06:19:53 PM »
Specifically, removing the weird quasi-immunity to diseases and poisons that those formulae currently grant.
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #663 on: November 15, 2012, 06:28:05 PM »
I'm glad things are progressing well.   :D

Let us (me) know if there's anything else we (I) can do! 

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #664 on: November 17, 2012, 02:53:25 AM »
Finished the changes to "Formula and Incantation Descriptions."  Almost done revising the rules chapter, and then it will actually be time to get back to revising things that people actually look at!

11/17/12, 7:01 PM EST: Rules chapter completed.  Going to import the circles without revisions into the document, then start revising circles as I import them.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 07:02:19 PM by DonQuixote »
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #665 on: November 24, 2012, 06:29:51 PM »
So, Astral Essence has been revised and transferred to the new document.  In addition to the stated changes, I added the full reminder text for cowering to Heavenly Awe, since it makes things cleaner overall.

I'm hoping to start the Perfect Freeze revision later tonight, since that one's also fairly simple.  That does contain the first flat-out replacement of a formula, so we'll see whether I'm able to breeze through it.

More importantly!  I've given you the list of my proposed revisions.  However, I have something to ask of you, dear readers.  I've trumpeted before about letting me know if there are any formulae that bug me.  That one's still on the table, of course--you bringing things to my attention is always the best way for progress to be made--but that isn't what brings me here today.  No, this is far more important.

The Natural Balance circle has thirteen formulae designated "Axe" or "Axe or rebuild."  That's more than half the circle--hell, it's one formula short of being two-thirds!  This circle is being gutted like a fish, and I quite frankly don't know how to fill the void.  Don't worry, I'm not axing the entire circle--Natural Balance occupies a conceptual space that I consider important.  Instead, I'm asking for suggestions.  What should Natural Balance be?  Mechanical suggestions are greatly desired, of course, but even thematic ideas would be useful!

For reference, we're losing:
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)

Obviously, if no suggestions are forthcoming, I'll figure out something to give Natural Balance.  I just figured that, since I'm stumped, I might as well bring more competent minds into the process.
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #666 on: November 24, 2012, 08:10:43 PM »
Quote from: DonQuixote
I'm asking for suggestions.  What should Natural Balance be?

[brainstorm]
One way to start, what is left?

(click to show/hide)

Typing those out I noticed a common theme among the formulae that didn't get axed. They are all very clearly and directly plant related. They tie in closely to the thornspike attack, while those being axed do so loosely, if at all.

So do you want Natural Balance to be less "the Druidy circle" and more "the "wood element" circle"?

Some fairly random ideas:

I like summoning and I thought it was cool that NB had spellshaping summoning. If summoning animals is not where you want to go, how about summoning plants? Either actual plant type creatures (which would require digging through sourcebooks looking for appropriate ones or homebrewing them) or astral construct esque creatures flavoured as tangles of animated vines ala the manifestation of thornspike?

More poison of different levels: I was a little surprised that Nature's Venom wasn't part of a "cycle" of poison effects with lower or higher die sizes or possibly hitting different stats.

More buff effects with planty flavor ala Mantle of Thorns: Maybe a Barkskin effect or something similar?[/brainstorm]

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #667 on: November 24, 2012, 08:34:37 PM »
Ohhh, I like the Wood Element circle idea.  I like it a lot, especially since Wood is an actual Element in the cosmology. 

Also, I take it this means Surging Spirit is being considered an official canon circle?

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #668 on: November 24, 2012, 11:16:36 PM »
Typing those out I noticed a common theme among the formulae that didn't get axed. They are all very clearly and directly plant related. They tie in closely to the thornspike attack, while those being axed do so loosely, if at all.

So do you want Natural Balance to be less "the Druidy circle" and more "the "wood element" circle"?

Well, here's the problem.  As I said, Natural Balance occupies a conceptual space that I consider important.  That conceptual space is nature in general, rather than just wood.  The fact that it is the "druid-y circle" is the very reason that I consider it to be worth keeping around.  If it were to get to the point that Natural Balance were to become a "wood element" circle, I'd be tempted to drop it.

I like summoning and I thought it was cool that NB had spellshaping summoning. If summoning animals is not where you want to go, how about summoning plants? Either actual plant type creatures (which would require digging through sourcebooks looking for appropriate ones or homebrewing them) or astral construct esque creatures flavoured as tangles of animated vines ala the manifestation of thornspike?

Hrm.  I can look into keeping summoning in some fashion.  I just don't like the implementation of the "Call" cycle of formulae.

More poison of different levels: I was a little surprised that Nature's Venom wasn't part of a "cycle" of poison effects with lower or higher die sizes or possibly hitting different stats.

In general, each circle that can deal ability damage targets a single ability score.  Ability damage is an off-focus for Natural Balance, so it was getting one formula that could do it, while not making it a focus of the circle.

I'll toy with this one, though.  I don't want to make poison too much of a thing, though.

More buff effects with planty flavor ala Mantle of Thorns: Maybe a Barkskin effect or something similar?

Hrm.  Again, not focusing too much on planty flavor, since I don't want a wood elemental circle.  I think that's sort of what I was getting at with the "of the Wild" cycle, but enhancement bonuses aren't really a good idea for formulae.



Ohhh, I like the Wood Element circle idea.  I like it a lot, especially since Wood is an actual Element in the cosmology.

Depends on your cosmology.  The Elemental Plane of Wood is actually only listed as a variant plane in the appendix of the Manual of the Planes.  I, for one, leave it out.

Also, I take it this means Surging Spirit is being considered an official canon circle?

It's probably going to go in the first Appendix.  Either way, though, Natural Balance basically ended up being a half-assed attempt at a healing circle.  I'd really like to clean it up into something more than that.
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #669 on: November 25, 2012, 12:53:36 AM »
Ok, so my takeaways from looking at the formulae that didn't get changed were totally off base.

The question then is, if you are going for a Druid flavor circle, why did most of the Druid stuff, as opposed to the stuff that hewed closely to the spellshape attack get targeted for axing?

What didn't you like about the "call" cycle formulae if it wasn't that they were summoning animals? If you're going to have a druid theme, summon nature's ally really ought to be in there.

Alternative ideas: Shapeshifting. Maybe a formula or two that echo the "Bite of the Were[creature]" line of spells? That could be a replacement for the "of the wild" cycle.

A "wall of thorns" type effect? Maybe along the lines of "make a thornspike attack that deals +Xd8 damage. If it hits, thick impassable briars sprout in an Xft radius around the target. These briars impair movement [to some degree]."

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #670 on: November 25, 2012, 01:00:33 AM »
The question then is, if you are going for a Druid flavor circle, why did most of the Druid stuff, as opposed to the stuff that hewed closely to the spellshape attack get targeted for axing?

Because those were the ones that either bothered me mechanically or conflicted with something else.

What didn't you like about the "call" cycle formulae if it wasn't that they were summoning animals? If you're going to have a druid theme, summon nature's ally really ought to be in there.

I don't really like the mechanical implementation.  I'm toying with some ideas that I like a lot more.  Basically, rather than pulling something out of a Monster Manual, we'll be dealing with something that's statted in-formula.

Alternative ideas: Shapeshifting. Maybe a formula or two that echo the "Bite of the Were[creature]" line of spells? That could be a replacement for the "of the wild" cycle.

Full-on shapeshifting got folded into the Wild Ascetic ACF, but I could definitely toy with some partial shifting, especially if it can be given to allies instead of just yourself.  Good, good...

A "wall of thorns" type effect? Maybe along the lines of "make a thornspike attack that deals +Xd8 damage. If it hits, thick impassable briars sprout in an Xft radius around the target. These briars impair movement [to some degree]."

Well, you generally don't want to create walls on subjects, but a wall of thorns is definitely a good place to start.  Hrmmmmm...

There are currently seven potential formulae floating around my head, so there's definite progress.  Three summonings, three partial shapeshifts, and the wall of thorns.  I'm thinking that a heavily altered version of Touch of Lycanthropy (currently Glimmering Moon) could make a fun replacement for Awakened Wood, so that'd put us at five more ideas to generate.



11/25/12, 1:46 AM EST: Revised Perfect Freeze.  Frozen Haze is now larger, deals a smidge more damage, imposes more of a penalty on attack rolls, and is not attached to a frostray attack.  Forced Hibernation has been replaced with Frost Armor.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 01:47:38 AM by DonQuixote »
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline Bauglir

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #671 on: November 25, 2012, 01:05:23 PM »
A baleful polymorph sort of effect? Make it 7th or 8th level and allow a save each round to avoid continuing to be a bunny, perhaps? Or else make the effect gradual over 5 rounds so that complete uselessness is a 1 round condition at the end.

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #672 on: November 25, 2012, 03:08:57 PM »
That's similar to what I was thinking for the 9th-level formula.  The idea was extra damage on thornspike, and then your target has to make a Will save at the beginning of their turn each round.  On a successful save, nothing happens.  On a failed save, they take 2 points of Intelligence damage and turn into an animal until the beginning of their next turn.  While they're an animal, you control their actions.
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline Amechra

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #673 on: November 25, 2012, 04:16:49 PM »
I can't find an image to link (or, well, I tried, but the servers were down when I tried to grab the URLs), but have you ever heard of Thorn Elves?

They're a thing in the Earthdawn setting where, to avoid eldritch monstrosities, a bunch of elves grew thorns under their skin.

So... maybe something like that? Where you can grow stuff out of you to give bonuses on saves? (Maybe have some armor spikes too?)
"There is happiness for those who accept their fate, there is glory for those that defy it."

"Now that everyone's so happy, this is probably a good time to tell you I ate your parents."

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #674 on: November 25, 2012, 10:59:49 PM »
Well, elves are never a good reason to do anything, but I take your point.  I think that the whole "growing thorns" thing is already covered by Mantle of Thorns and Poisonous Mantle, though.

Also, I forgot that I also wanted to axe Transfixing Spike.  Means I still have a few ideas to generate, but we're actually getting somewhere.  Natural Balance has gone from the last circle to be revised to being the next circle to be revised.

I should probably write that research paper that's due tomorrow first, though.
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #675 on: November 25, 2012, 11:05:28 PM »
Well, elves are never a good reason to do anything, but I take your point.  I think that the whole "growing thorns" thing is already covered by Mantle of Thorns and Poisonous Mantle, though.

Also, I forgot that I also wanted to axe Transfixing Spike.  Means I still have a few ideas to generate, but we're actually getting somewhere.  Natural Balance has gone from the last circle to be revised to being the next circle to be revised.

I should probably write that research paper that's due tomorrow first, though.


Yes, yes you should.

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #676 on: November 27, 2012, 07:49:43 PM »
I've been toying with new setups for the summoning formulae and the buffing formulae.

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

If you understand these things any better than I do, please point out all the horrible things I'm doing wrong.

Now, to come up with concepts for those last two formulae...a 1st-level and a 3rd-level...
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 07:52:20 PM by DonQuixote »
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #677 on: November 28, 2012, 05:43:24 PM »
Feral Summons: The bite attack should probably be full str, since it's a primary attack (has to be since it's the only attack). Attack bonus to AC ratio means more attacks miss at lower levels so making it full str won't push the average damage above what you want it to be.

Maybe Weapon Finesse since dex will be higher than str (that's pretty standard for animals with high dex.)

I don't know if it's outside what you want the formulae to do, but maybe consider options for customizing the summons ala the "menu abilities" that astral constructs get.

I think you may be overcompensating with the move action tax. Other summon abilities don't require that (and there are ways to get them as standard actions) and let you have several summons running around at the same time for no penalty. Summoning is supposed to be powerful in that way.

I think the built in limitation of only being allowed one of each formula at a time, is a significant drawback compared to other summoning abilities and makes up for the advantage of never running out of spell slots or PP.

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #678 on: November 28, 2012, 08:17:08 PM »
Feral Summons: The bite attack should probably be full str, since it's a primary attack (has to be since it's the only attack). Attack bonus to AC ratio means more attacks miss at lower levels so making it full str won't push the average damage above what you want it to be.

Fair enough.  I'll tweak that, then.

Maybe Weapon Finesse since dex will be higher than str (that's pretty standard for animals with high dex.)

The high Dexterity scores are primarily there for survivability, not finesse.  I mean, I could technically swap the way that Strength and Dexterity are calculated, but I figured that tying down the damage to the formula was a better idea.

I don't know if it's outside what you want the formulae to do, but maybe consider options for customizing the summons ala the "menu abilities" that astral constructs get.

The Summons formulae are already going to be more complex than most formulae.  While I'm not opposed to customizable summoning, it wouldn't feel right to give that level of interactivity to only one circle.

I think you may be overcompensating with the move action tax. Other summon abilities don't require that (and there are ways to get them as standard actions) and let you have several summons running around at the same time for no penalty. Summoning is supposed to be powerful in that way.

I think the built in limitation of only being allowed one of each formula at a time, is a significant drawback compared to other summoning abilities and makes up for the advantage of never running out of spell slots or PP.

Thing is, the Summons formulae aren't being balanced against other summoning abilities, they're being balanced around the rest of spellshaping.  In almost all cases, a formula that creates something that you control requires a move action to exert that control.  So, there's the issue of consistency--and, before you pull some examples from circles that haven't yet been revised, I'm going to be pushing this one across the board.

More importantly, omitting that move action requirement allows the Summons formulae to deal massive amounts of damage with only slight investment.  I do not agree with the idea that summoning should be more powerful than other options, so summoning formulae will always be balanced against any other type of formula.  Even with the move action requirement, I'm fairly certain that the Summons formulae will make Natural Balance one of the highest-priority circles for damage-centric builds.  If it weren't for the fact that Wildfire and Predatory Summons end up doing around the same damage at 20th level, I might wonder if Natural Balance might edge out Searing Flame for the highest-priority slot.

I was going to make a comment about Predatory Summons being arguably better than Wildfire, due to the prevalence of fire resistance and immunity, but I think it ends up as a wash, what with DR being what it is.  SR and AC probably work out the same way.  (Incidentally, I forgot to note it, but the natural attacks of the Summons creatures will count as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming DR.)
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #679 on: November 28, 2012, 08:58:39 PM »
Quote
The high Dexterity scores are primarily there for survivability, not finesse.  I mean, I could technically swap the way that Strength and Dexterity are calculated, but I figured that tying down the damage to the formula was a better idea.

Giving weapon finesse as a bonus feat would give dex to hit but not to damage. I mostly suggest it because that's how most (possibly all) published animals with higher dex than str are set up.

Quote
The Summons formulae are already going to be more complex than most formulae.  While I'm not opposed to customizable summoning, it wouldn't feel right to give that level of interactivity to only one circle.

That's a good point. Summons already give more versatility than most effects so additional customization would just aggravate things.

On that note, do you know what you want to do with the appearance of the summon? Things like whether it can have limbs cappable of opening doors and such could be important.

Quote
Thing is, the Summons formulae aren't being balanced against other summoning abilities, they're being balanced around the rest of spellshaping.  In almost all cases, a formula that creates something that you control requires a move action to exert that control.  So, there's the issue of consistency--and, before you pull some examples from circles that haven't yet been revised, I'm going to be pushing this one across the board.

More importantly, omitting that move action requirement allows the Summons formulae to deal massive amounts of damage with only slight investment.  I do not agree with the idea that summoning should be more powerful than other options, so summoning formulae will always be balanced against any other type of formula.  Even with the move action requirement, I'm fairly certain that the Summons formulae will make Natural Balance one of the highest-priority circles for damage-centric builds.  If it weren't for the fact that Wildfire and Predatory Summons end up doing around the same damage at 20th level, I might wonder if Natural Balance might edge out Searing Flame for the highest-priority slot.

I was going to make a comment about Predatory Summons being arguably better than Wildfire, due to the prevalence of fire resistance and immunity, but I think it ends up as a wash, what with DR being what it is.  SR and AC probably work out the same way.  (Incidentally, I forgot to note it, but the natural attacks of the Summons creatures will count as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming DR.)

It's a valid point that there's no good reason for summoning to be more powerful than other magical effects. The move action thing seems like a good way of holding down that power.

Summons do have a few disadvantages that things like a blast of fire don't, though. You can't blind fire with glitterdust, or kill it with AoOs or lock it down with solid fog etc. Damage output may be exceptional in theory but there's a lot more that can go wrong for a summon than a straight damage effect.