Discussion and Suggestion Thread

[Garryl]

What's the radius of class-granted numena, such as through Spellshape Champion with the Spellshape Paragon ACF?

[DonQuixote]

What's the radius of class-granted numena, such as through Spellshape Champion with the Spellshape Paragon ACF?

As described in the rules under "Projecting Numena":

When a spellshaper chooses to project a numen, its benefits take effect in a 30-foot radius around her.  For every five shaper levels she possesses, this radius increases by 5 feet.  A spellshaper's numen remains in effect until she dismisses it (a free action), she is rendered unconscious or dead, or she projects another numen in its place.

I assume that you're asking because the Project Numen feat specifies the radius, whereas class features do not.  I tend to present more redundant information in feats than I do in class features, as I am under the impression that feat selection is a more evaluative process than simply accumulating class features.  I could be wrong, of course.

[Garryl]

Thanks. Where is that from, by the way? I was looking for it, but I couldn't find it. I was expecting it to be in it's own section, like how Incantations have their own section linked from the index.

[DonQuixote]

The rules chapter.  The only reason that Incantations have their own section is that they were originally a supplement, rather than part of the core system.

I'll probably clean up the organization and linking stuff once I have things under control.

[Bauglir]

Can I steal the statted out monsters? They seem like great things to advance a little and give to weirder cultures (I mean, ooze-riding is utterly rad.)

Absolutely.

[downzorz]

Same Game Testing!
I SGT'd the Spellshaper, and found it to have some mad skillz. I'm through levels 5 and 10. Keep in mind that I'm not really good at this, but I'm trying. I hope it at least gives you some idea about balance points.

The level 5 build:

(click to show/hide)

---Character Sheet---
-Shaper-
-Human-
-Spellsage 5-

--Abilities--
Str(current): 8 Mod(current): -1
Dex(current): 16 Mod(current): +3
Con(current): 14 Mod(current): +2
Int(current): 16 Mod(current): +3
Wis(current): 10 Mod(current): 0
Cha(current): 8 Mod(current): -1

--Combat Stats--
Base Speed (Current Speed): 30’
Initiative Mod(Dex+Other): +3
HD/Rolls: 5d4
Total HP (Current HP): 24
Current effects/modifiers/conditions:
Light/Medium/Heavy Load:

--Defenses--
AC(10+Armor Bonus+Shield Bonus+Dex Mod+Size Mod+Natural Armor+Deflection Bonus+Misc Mod)[Touch, Flat-Footed]: 14 (10+1+0+3+0+0+0+0) [13, 11]
DR:-
SR:-
Spell Failure:-
Check Penalty:-
Armor Weight:-

--Saves--
Fort(Base+Con mod+Resistance mod+Misc)[Special modifiers]: +5 (1+2+2+0)
Ref(Base+Dex mod+Resistance mod+Misc)[Special modifiers]: +6 (1+3+2+0)
Will(Base+Wis mod+Resistance mod+Misc)[Special modifiers]: +9 (4+0+2+3)

--Attacks--
Attack Routine(BAB+Ability Mod+Size mod+Misc Mod):
Ranged Attack Routine(BAB+Ability Mod+Size mod+Misc Mod):
Touch spellshape attacks +6 60’ touch (2+3+0+1)/3d6 damage
Weaponlike spellshape attacks +9 60’ (2+3+0+4)/3d8 damage

--Skills--
Skill Name/Modifier(Ranks+ability mod+misc mod):
Concentration/+10 (8+2+0)
Knowledge (Nature)/+11 (8+3+0)
Knowledge (Arcana)/+11 (8+3+0)
Knowledge (Dungeoneering)/+11 (8+3+0)
Spot/+8 (8+0+0)
Spellcraft/+11 (8+3+0)

--Feats/Abilities--
Ability name/effect:
Spellshaping (Sp): Shaper knows spellshapes from the Blustering Gale, Deteriorating Corrosion, Eternal Moment, Perfect Freeze, Searing Flame, Shocking Current, and Unseen Impetus circles. He can change all prepared formulae and recover them all with a full-round action, and has 6 formulae prepared at all times.
Arcane  Knack (Sp): Shaper can use up to two spells per day of up to second level, though both of them cannot be second level. He usually picks Invisibility and Protection from Evil.
Detect Magic (Sp): Shaper can use Detect Magic 3 times per day.
Empowered Formula (Ex): Shaper can increase the variable, numeric effects of a formula by .5. This is a 2nd-degree metashaping feat.
Improved Initiative (Ex): Shaper has +4 to initiative checks.
Spellshape Focus (Ex): Shaper has +1 to hit with spellshape attacks and gains an extra dice of damage with each of them.

--Equipment--
Item/Location/Weight/Effect:
+1 Lamen/Carried/-/+1 to overcome spell resistance with touch spellshape attacks, +1 to hit with weaponlike spellshape attacks
Cloak of Resistance +2/Carried/-/+2 resistance bonus to saves
Bracers of Armor +1/Carried/-/+1 armor bonus to AC
Total Weight Carried:

--Formulae--

Class- Spellsage
Shaper Level- 5th
Formula DC- 13+formula level

Formulae Known (Circle)
Minor
1st- Scorching Blast (Searing Flame), Sparkflash (Shocking Current)
2nd- Embrace of the Flame (Searing Flame), Baffling Winds (Blustering Gale)
3rd- Embrace of the Air (Blustering Gale), Shivering Chill (Perfect Freeze)
Major
1st- Armor-Eating Acid (Deteriorating Corrosion), Ice Glaze (Perfect Freeze), Flattening Gust (Blustering Gale), Ignite (Searing Flame)
2nd- Hoarfrost (Perfect Freeze), Feedback (Shocking Current)
3rd- Blinding Spray (Deteriorating Corrosion)

Formulae readied- Blinding Spray, Embrace of the Air, Shivering Chill, Hoarfrost, Feedback, Baffling Winds

And the SGT results:

(click to show/hide)

Locked Door and Traps: No trapfinding, no success. Definite Loss.

Iron Statue: Embrace of the Air and Caustic Spray on round 1, Blinding Spray on round 2, recover maneuvers on round 3, repeat. A +8 advantage on initiative just about guarantees first strike. Acid damage ignores hardness. The statue cannot hit our shaper; our shaper will hit on a 2 or better. The statue dies ingloriously. Definite Win.

Basilisk: Eugh. This should be fun. If the basilisk would come out of the burrow this could be a cakewalk, but inside the burrow, it’s more difficult. Averting gaze drops the per-round chance of petrification to 20%. The shaper starts off with a Blinding Spray, hitting on a 3 or better. This isn’t even so much for the blinding as for the damage, dealing an adjusted DPR of 17.64 (including miss chance). Assuming that the shaper closes his eyes and backs away after every shot to regain formulae, the basilisk will fall in 3 rounds. The blinding of the acid isn’t really the issue here. While the Basilisk falls on average quicker than the shaper does, the possibility of petrification is high. Call it a probable win.

Large Fire Elemental: Alright. He hits on an 8 or better with his Freezing Ray, dealing an adjusted 13 DPR off that alone. The elemental might win initiative and get off an attack, but almost definitely won’t kill the shaper in one hit. At that point, the shaper follows a pattern of Embrace of the Air-Shivering Chill/Hoarfrost-Regain Maneuvers-Embrace of Air/Hoarfrost-Regain-so on. The elemental can’t reach us and Hoarfrost deals an adjusted 22.75 damage. Definite Win.

Manticore: We can fly better, but the Mantiore has those nasty spikes. They hit on a 6 or better and deal enough DPR to off us in one round. We can hope for a quick shot of Blinding Spray, and that has a 24% chance of blinding it in the first round, ending the combat. If it doesn’t, there’s no way to win this one; Probable Loss.

Phase Spider: Same pattern as the elemental and statue, but this time with the Kinetic Blast. It will take a bit longer (3d4 damage ve 3d6) but the spider can’t fly, and we can hit it across planes. Definite Win.

Centaurs: This one won’t be definitively solved by flying, but… let’s see. Lashing Zephyr hits on a 5 or less, adjusted DPR of 10.8, enough to drop a centaur in 3 rounds. Toss out Baffling Winds to defend ourselves. Blinding Spray on the first centaur (about a 1/3 chance of blinding it right off and effectively outing it right there, otherwise an average of 19.6 damage). Centaurs go- bows twannng, dealing on average of 5.28 damage each. That will drop us in 3 rounds if we don’t off one of them first. Now we go with the combination of Shivering Chill and Hoarfrost for an average of 14 damage, with the rider effects not that important. Between that and the Blinding Spray, one centaur should be down. At this point we just go along and win the damage race- Feedback is good here, both for bonus damage and special effects. Even if both centaurs hit the first round, the second won’t win the damage race, so we win. Definite Win.

Allip/Howler: Toss out Protection from Evil in round 1 to get a leg up on the Allip, start flying, fly up. The ghosty will be babbling at you, but with your Will save you only fail on a 4 or less. This gives you a 20% chance per round, and if you bust out a Kinetic Blast each round you will do 4.5 DPR. It’s close, but you won’t quite drop the Allip before it beats you. If you do, the Howler can’t do anything. Because of the closeness, I’m calling Probable Loss.

4 Grimlocks: Another example of flying=win, especially when you can light a torch or something, hover at 60’ and just slaughter everything. Definite Win.

Cleric and Zombies: Again with the flying, this is going to come down to a ranged SOD-off. With Protection from Evil up, we start. Using the DMG Cleric, we’ve got an even chance of dropping him with a Blinding Spray, while he’s got a worse-than-even chance of getting us with Hold Person or Blindness. We’ve got this one, but because it’s essentially rocket tag I’ll call Probable Win.

Overall we’ve got:
Definite win: 5
Probable win: 2
Toss-up: 0
Probable Loss: 2
Definite Loss: 1
Hmm. Interesting. This comes out to a solid win for the Shaper. I think the biggest thing here is the dominance of flying+ranged attacks, allowing us to decimate anything that cannot fly or use ranged attacks. Alright, now for the level 10.

Aaaaand the level 10 build:

(click to show/hide)

---Character Sheet---
-Shaper-
-Human-
-Spellsage 10-

--Abilities--
Str(current): 8 Mod(current): -1
Dex(current): 16 (20) Mod(current): +3 (+5)
Con(current): 14 Mod(current): +2
Int(current): 18 (22) Mod(current): +4 (+6)
Wis(current): 10 Mod(current): 0
Cha(current): 8 Mod(current): -1

--Combat Stats--
Base Speed (Current Speed): 30’
Initiative Mod(Dex+Other): +9 (5+4)
HD/Rolls: 10d4
Total HP (Current HP): 46
Current effects/modifiers/conditions:
Light/Medium/Heavy Load:

--Defenses--
AC(10+Armor Bonus+Shield Bonus+Dex Mod+Size Mod+Natural Armor+Deflection Bonus+Misc Mod)[Touch, Flat-Footed]: 15 (10+0+0+5+0+0+0+0) [15, 10]
DR:-
SR:-
Spell Failure:-
Check Penalty:-
Armor Weight:-

--Saves--
Fort(Base+Con mod+Resistance mod+Misc)[Special modifiers]: +8 (3+2+2+0) [+1 vs spells and spell-likes]
Ref(Base+Dex mod+Resistance mod+Misc)[Special modifiers]: +14 (3+3+2+6) [+1 vs spells and spell-likes]
Will(Base+Wis mod+Resistance mod+Misc)[Special modifiers]: +15 (7+0+2+6) [+1 vs spells and spell-likes]

--Attacks--
Attack Routine(BAB+Ability Mod+Size mod+Misc Mod):
Ranged Attack Routine(BAB+Ability Mod+Size mod+Misc Mod):
Touch spellshape attacks +12 60’ touch (5+5+0+2)/5d6 damage
Weaponlike spellshape attacks +18 60’ (5+5+0+8)/5d8 damage

--Skills--
Skill Name/Modifier(Ranks+ability mod+misc mod):
Concentration/+15 (13+2+0)
Knowledge (Nature)/+17 (13+4+0)
Knowledge (Arcana)/+17 (13+4+0)
Knowledge (Dungeoneering)/+17 (13+4+0)
Spot/+13 (13+0+0)
Spellcraft/+17 (13+4+0)

--Feats/Abilities--
Ability name/effect:
Spellshaping (Sp): Shaper knows spellshapes from the Blustering Gale, Deteriorating Corrosion, Eternal Moment, Perfect Freeze, Searing Flame, Shocking Current, and Unseen Impetus circles. He can change all prepared formulae and recover them all with a full-round action, and has 6 formulae prepared at all times.
Arcane  Knack (Sp): Shaper can use up to four spells per day of up to third level, though two or more of them cannot be third level. He usually picks Gaseous Form, Alter Self, Grease, and Invisibility.
Detect Magic (Sp): Shaper can use Detect Magic 6 times per day.
Sculpt Formula (Ex): Shaper can change the size and shape of formulae to effect areas. This is a 1st-degree metashaping feat.
Improved Initiative (Ex): Shaper has +4 to initiative checks.
Spellshape Focus (Ex): Shaper has +1 to hit with spellshape attacks and gains an extra dice of damage with each of them.
Precise Shaper (Ex): Shaper gains +1 to hit within half of a spellshape attack’s range, and takes no penalty for firing into melee.
Tactical Shaper (Ex): Shaper has doubled range on all of his spellshape attacks.

--Equipment--
Item/Location/Weight/Effect:
+1 Empowering Lamen/Carried/-/+1 dice of damage, +1 to hit with weaponlike spellshape attacks, +1 to overcome SR with touch spellshape attacks
Headband of Intellect +4/Worn/-/+4 enhancement bonus to Intelligence
Cloak of Resistance +2/Worn/-/+2 resistance bonus to saves
Gloves of Dexterity +4/Worn/-/+4 enhancement bonus to Dexterity
Total Weight Carried:

--Formulae--

Class- Spellsage
Shaper Level- 10th
Formula DC- 14+formula level

Formulae Known (Circle)
Minor
1st- Scorching Blast (Searing Flame)
2nd- Embrace of the Flame (Searing Flame), Baffling Winds (Blustering Gale)
3rd- Embrace of the Air (Blustering Gale), Shivering Chill (Perfect Freeze)
4th- Blinding Sparks (Shocking Current)
5th- Freezing Ray (Perfect Freeze)
Major
1st- Armor-Eating Acid (Deteriorating Corrosion), Flattening Gust (Blustering Gale)
2nd- Hoarfrost (Perfect Freeze), Feedback (Shocking Current)
3rd- Blinding Spray (Deteriorating Corrosion), Flattening Wind (Blustering Gale), Counterforce (Unseen Impetus)
4th- Ray of Rime (Perfect Freeze), Oppressive Heat (Searing Flame), Electrify (Shocking Current)
5th- Forced Hibernation (Perfect Freeze), Engulfing Flames (Searing Flame), Binding Gale (Blustering Gale)

Formulae readied- Forced Hibernation, Freezing Ray, Engulfing Flames, Binding Gale, Embrace of the Air, Oppressive Heat, Electrify, Blinding Sparks

Aaaaand the results:

(click to show/hide)

Hallway with Magical Runes: Detect Magic, Gaseous Form. That is success. Definite Win.

Fire Giant: Ugh. Let’s see. We definitely win the initiative race, with a +10 advantage over the giant. It has a touch AC of 8, so we definitely hit it. First we shape Embrace of the Air and fly 60’ upwards. With Forced Hibernation, we only miss on a critical fail. It has an even chance of failing the save, becoming helpless, which is basically a win for us right there. Even if it doesn’t succeed, we get a solid 84 average damage. The giant goes next, throwing a rock, hitting on a 5 or more, dealing an adjusted average of 19.2 damage. Next round, we use Binding Gale, which hits on a 5 or more, dealing an adjusted average of 46.8 damage, and holding the giant in place for 4 rounds, also imposing a -2 to hit with ranged attacks, dropping DPR to 14.4. After that, use Blinding Sparks and Electrify, with a combined 40% chance to either blind or paralyze, either of which is pretty much a win for us. Oh, and average damage of 35. After that, just keep smacking it with Frostray until it is dead. I’ll call this a Definite Win.

Blue Dragon: Okay, Young Blue Dragon. We can fly too, though not as fast. Fast enough to catch up and hit with an attack though. Forced Hibernation enhanced with Freezing Ray leads, which has a 65% chance of stopping it right off, then a bonus 45% chance of a -4 to dexterity, else a -2. We’ll assume the latter for now. Oh, and 42 average damage. Dragon shoots off a breath weapon, which does an average of 15.525 damage. Next round, we fly up to it and use Oppressive Heat, which hits and deals 28 damage. Dragon fails a save on a 9 or less, so we’ve got a solid chance of dropping DPR, but let’s disregard that for now too. Dragon attacks with claw on a charge, dealing about 7 damage average. We fire off a Binding Gale, which does 58.5 average damage and hits on a 2 or more. The dragon is almost definitely dead now. This is a Definite Win- it’s a damage race that the dragon can’t win, and on most of our attacks there’s a SOD in there.

Bebilith: Ugh. We don’t detect it. It grapples us. We lose. Definite Loss.

Vrock: This is gonna be hard to win. If the Vrock successfully summons a second one, we’re screwed there and then. We can fly as well or better, though we don’t really need to. Start off with a Binding Gale, which hits on a 2 or more (because win initiative, flat-footed vrock). This has a 50% chance of holding it in place for 4 rounds. At that point, we just barrage it with attacks until it falls. I mean, that’s our strategy anyways, but this way it won’t hit us back. The Binding Gale will deal 48.5 after DR. If it succeeds, we can proceed to cycle through Forced Hibernation, Engulfing Flames, and Oppressive Heat until the thing is dead. One of those rounds we will be stunned, but that’s okay. We pass SR on a 6 or more, giving us an average damage over those three rounds of 24, 21, and 21, so a total of 66, which with the other damage from Binding Gale is close to enough to kill it. Hell, if we take a round and restore formulae, we can hit it with Binding Gale again for the win. Now, if Binding Gale doesn’t hit it right off, we can’t do squat, because the Vrock will Stunning Screech and we will die. So between the summoning chance and chance of Binding Gale failing, I’ll say Probable Loss.

Mind Flayers: Wheee, Will saves. We win on a 2 or more. Our method of attack here will be Binding Gale, because Mind Flayers have more SR than is healthy. First off, it hits. Second, it does enough average damage to drop a Mind Flayer and a half. So we regain formulae and do it again. That’s two dead mind flayers, no dead Shaper. Definite Win.

Necromancer: We will win the initiative race. DMG standard Necromancer has 15 AC, meaning that we can’t miss with Binding Gale sans natural 1, and 37 HP, meaning that it will probably kill him. Even if it doesn’t and he hits us with something ridiculous, we can survive anything with a Will or Reflex save, and we have an almost-even chance of succeeding against  a Fortitude save. Probable win.

6 Trolls: Flying. Sculpted Oppressive Heat and Blinding Corrosion. Le Definite Win.

12 Shadows: Shadows… Nah. They get the drop on us because our detection abilities are terrible, and an average of 16.8 Strength damage happens. No winning for us. Definite Loss.

Totals:
Definite Win: 5
Probable Win: 1
Toss-Up: 0
Probable Loss: 1
Definite Loss: 2
Okay, here it is. It seems that the things that got us did so with surprise (aside the Vrock, which is a monster anyways). We don’t have Spot or Listen in-class, so that’s to be expected. Still, this is solidly a Wizard-level class. To level 15!

I'll do some more later. I hope this is useful to you in some way.

[DonQuixote]

Well, I'm not familiar with the Same Game Test, so I'm guessing at how to parse the results, but what I'm taking away here is that flying needs to be bumped up to a 4th-level formula in order for a level 5 build to play nice with others.  That sound about right?

I'm less sure on what to do about the level 10 build, though I'm thinking it may entail a long, critical look at Binding Gale.  That seems to be far too important to be healthy.

It is worth noting that Forced Hibernation no longer exists.  As part of the current ongoing revision, I'm taking out anything that leaves enemies helpless or could otherwise be considered a save-or-die.

[downzorz]

Basically a Same Game Test is used by some people to look at where a class falls on power levels. A class that passes significantly more than 50% of the challenges (like the Spellshaper here) is considered to be "Wizard Level." This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it means that the average challenge of equal EL would not be too challenging to the Spellshaper. You are right about flying, definitely; it was the absolute deciding factor in 5 challenges at level 5. Honestly, the effect of Binding Gale itself wasn't too important; it was used for the damage alone 3 out of 5 times, and Dessicate would work just as well for that (or, for that matter, any of the +7d8 formulae).

http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Dungeons_and_Dragons_Wiki:The_Same_Game_Test
Here is the home of the Same Game Test that I was using.

Oh, and here is the level 15 test.

The Build:

(click to show/hide)

---Character Sheet---
-Shaper-
-Human-
-Spellsage 15-

--Abilities--
Str(current): 8 Mod(current): -1
Dex(current): 16 (20) Mod(current): +3 (+5)
Con(current): 14 (20) Mod(current): +2 (+5)
Int(current): 19 (25) Mod(current): +4 (+7)
Wis(current): 10 Mod(current): 0
Cha(current): 8 Mod(current): -1

--Combat Stats--
Base Speed (Current Speed): 30’
Initiative Mod(Dex+Other): +9 (5+4)
HD/Rolls: 15d4
Total HP (Current HP): 94
Current effects/modifiers/conditions:
Light/Medium/Heavy Load:

--Defenses--
AC(10+Armor Bonus+Shield Bonus+Dex Mod+Size Mod+Natural Armor+Deflection Bonus+Misc Mod)[Touch, Flat-Footed]: 18 (10+0+0+5+0+0+2+1) [18, 13]
DR:-
SR:-
Spell Failure:-
Check Penalty:-
Armor Weight:-

--Saves--
Fort(Base+Con mod+Resistance mod+Misc)[Special modifiers]: +22 (5+5+5+7) [+2 vs spells and spell-likes]
Ref(Base+Dex mod+Resistance mod+Misc)[Special modifiers]: +20 (5+3+5+7) [+2 vs spells and spell-likes]
Will(Base+Wis mod+Resistance mod+Misc)[Special modifiers]: +21 (9+0+5+7) [+2 vs spells and spell-likes]

--Attacks--
Attack Routine(BAB+Ability Mod+Size mod+Misc Mod):
Ranged Attack Routine(BAB+Ability Mod+Size mod+Misc Mod):
Weaponlike Spellshape Attacks +22/+22/+17 (7+5+0+10)/7d8
Touch Spellshape Attacks +14/+14/+9 (7+5+0+2)/7d6

--Skills--
Skill Name/Modifier(Ranks+ability mod+misc mod):
Concentration/+23 (18+5+0)
Knowledge (Nature)/+25 (18+7+0)
Knowledge (Arcana)/+25 (18+7+0)
Knowledge (Dungeoneering)/+25 (18+7+0)
Spot/+18 (18+0+0)
Spellcraft/+25 (18+7+0)

--Feats/Abilities--
Ability name/effect:
Spellshaping (Sp): Shaper knows spellshapes from the Blustering Gale, Deteriorating Corrosion, Eternal Moment, Perfect Freeze, Searing Flame, Shocking Current, and Unseen Impetus circles. He can change all prepared formulae and recover them all with a full-round action, and has 6 formulae prepared at all times.
Arcane  Knack (Sp): Shaper can use up to five spells per day of up to fifth level, though two or more of them cannot be fifth level. He usually picks Dismissal, Greater Invisibility, Resilient Sphere, Polymorph, and Solid Fog.
Detect Magic (Sp): Shaper can use Detect Magic 6 times per day.
Sculpt Formula (Ex): Shaper can change the size and shape of formulae to effect areas. This is a 1st-degree metashaping feat.
Improved Initiative (Ex): Shaper has +4 to initiative checks.
Spellshape Focus/Greater Spellshape Focus (Ex): Shaper has +2 to hit with spellshape attacks and gains two extra die of damage with each of them.
Extend Formula (Ex): Shaper can double the duration of a formula. This is a 2nd degree metashaping feat.
Persistent Formula (Ex): Shaper can extend the duration of a personal-range formula or one centered on him to 24 hours. It still counts against prepared formulae. This is a 5th-degree metashaping feat.
Quicken Spellshape (Ex): Shaper can use a formula as a swift action. This is a 4th-degree metashaping feat.

--Equipment--
Item/Location/Weight/Effect:
+1 Empowering Spellstorm Lamen/Worn/-/+1 to hit with weaponlike spellshape attacks, +1 to overcome Spell Resistance with touch spellshape attacks, +1 dice of damage with spellshape attacks, one extra attack whenever attacking, including through formulae
Headband of Intellect +6/Worn/-/+6 enhancement bonus to Intelligence
Gloves of Dexterity +4/Worn/-/+4 enhancement bonus to Dexterity
Amulet of Health +6/Worn/-/+6 enhancement bonus to Constitution
Cloak of Resistance +5/Worn/-/+5 resistance bonus to saves
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone/Worn/-/+1 insight bonus to AC
Ring of Protection +2/Worn/-/+2 deflection bonus to AC
Total Weight Carried:

--Formulae--

Class- Spellsage
Shaper Level- 10th
Formula DC- 17+formula level

Formulae Known (Circle)
Minor
2nd- Embrace of the Flame (Searing Flame), Baffling Winds (Blustering Gale)
3rd- Embrace of the Air (Blustering Gale), Shivering Chill (Perfect Freeze)
4th- Blinding Sparks (Shocking Current)
5th- Freezing Ray (Perfect Freeze)
6th- Corrosive Magic (Deteriorating Corrosion)
7th- Incinerating Blast (Searing Flame), Dissipate (Unseen Impetus)
Major
1st- Flattening Gust (Blustering Gale)
2nd- Hoarfrost (Perfect Freeze), Feedback (Shocking Current)
3rd- Blinding Spray (Deteriorating Corrosion), Flattening Wind (Blustering Gale), Counterforce (Unseen Impetus)
4th- Ray of Rime (Perfect Freeze), Oppressive Heat (Searing Flame), Electrify (Shocking Current)
5th- Forced Hibernation (Perfect Freeze), Engulfing Flames (Searing Flame), Binding Gale (Blustering Gale)
6th- Lashing Squall (Blustering Gale), Voltaic Surge (Shocking Current), Heatstroke (Searing Flame)
7th- Undying Flames (Searing Flame), Flashfreeze (Perfect Freeze)
8th- Sparkstorm (Shocking Current), Corrode Defenses (Deteriorating Corrosion)

Formulae readied- Sparkstorm, Corrode Defenses, Undying Flames, Incinerating Blast, Dissipate, Flashfreeze, Corrosive Magic, Electrify, Lashing Squall, Embrace of the Air (Persistent)

The Results:

(click to show/hide)

Marut: Open with a Dissipate, fly upwards, shoot a Lashing Squall at it. Shape it so that we don’t have to worry about that AC. We’ve got an 80% chance of getting it, dealing an adjusted 42 damage. Also, if it hits, there are some effects, blah blah. Oh, and there’s an average of 9 more damage from the extra attack. Next turn it does something; it could Greater Dispel Magic, but there’s nothing it can do that we can’t redo next round; it can Circle of Death or Chain Lightning or something, but we only fail any saves on a natural 1. Next round, we use Corrosive Magic followed by Corrode Defenses, for like 66 damage plus the damage from the extra shot plus yadda yadda, and we don’t even care anymore because this thing can’t do anything worthwhile. Definite win.

Hullathoin: Okay, we can kite the locust swarm, since we fly as good and faster, and just do things like Shaped Undying Flame or Shaped Lashing Squall to kill it. The Hullathoin we then just kill from the sky while it flounders about ineffectually. Definite Win.

Nightmare Beast: Contact Other Plane, Scrying, Locate Creature to find it. Then Dissipate. Now it can’t do anything aside from toss out SLA’s. The save DC on any of its SLA’s are so low that we only fail on a 1, and those only have a 50% chance of affecting us, too, since we are incorporeal now. And we barrage it with Kinetic Blast after a Corrosive Magic, and it dies because it is weak. Definite Win.

Windghost: It can Antimagic Field. It wins. I mean, we can run away… but it still wins. Definite Loss.

Yakfolk: Assuming 11th-level Cleric, it’s got more HP than us, a party of Dao, and it can fly just as well… After doing the analysis of the priestess, the Yakfolk doesn’t look that impressive- it won’t get an SOD off on us, it won’t win a damage race, and it just can’t do much that we can’t do better. Definite Win.

Priestess and Army of Ghouls: Allllright. We’ve got the Initiative win, so we go for a move up 30’, Sparkstorm. The Sparkstorm hits on a 2 or more, deals 59.5 average damage. Then we add a Quickened Electrify for an additional 42 damage and a 50% chance of paralysis. Also, both have extra attacks with an average of 49 damage on top of that. Oh, hey, look, the priestess is dead. Also, even if she goes next, we’ve got a 10% chance to fail on our worst save. Yeah, no, she’s not winning this one. Definite Win.

Cloud Giants: Dissipate. They can’t touch us. Definite Win.

Mature Adult White Dragon: Hah. First we Dissipate, making the claws and bite not work and the breath weapon only hit us 50% of the time, and only actually have us fail the save 10% of the time. This comes out to like 7 damage per breath on average. And now we use an Extended Corrosive Magic and then just Kinetic Blast until it dies. That’s really all we need. Definite Win.

Death Slaad and Toad: Hmm. The toad is worthless, because flying. We can go incorporeal, and then Greater Invisibility, making us undetectable for 15 rounds. It can Detect Magic, but that will take 3 rounds to actually figure out where we are, at which point we’ve dealt about 120 damage to it. Then it proceeds to still not do anything worthwhile, because we are better. Also, we can toss on Counterforce or something. Definite Win.

Cornugon: Okay, again, if it summons another of its own, we are solidly boned. Never mind, I just saw Regeneration, and we don’t have anything Good-Aligned. Definite Loss.

Gelugon with Iron Golem: Again, Regeneration. Definite Loss.

Multiple wards and contingent Weirds: We can Detect Magic and Dispel Magic. It might take a while, but we will take this one out. Definite Win.

2 Galbrezu in a cave: If we beat both of them on initiative, then we become incorporeal and start hitting them. But then they both Power Word Stun, which lasts long enough to bring us out of incorporeality, and then they grapple and there is nothing to do. Definite Loss.

Harem of Succubi: I’m not sure if this is meant as a social or combat challenge. If it’s the former, we lose on account of not having social skills in the least. If the latter, we win because we can kite succubi forever and deal enough damage in a Sculpted something to kill them. So… I’m gonna say this one seems like a social challenge, so Definite Loss.

20 Dire Bears: Fly and burn them. Definite Win.

12 Medusas and Hellcats: Well, we won’t notice that they are actually medusas. But we won’t get petrified except on a Natural 1. And we can destroy all of them with a single Sculpted Lashing Squall. Also, none of them, Hellcats included, can fly or do anything to incorporeal creatures. Nah, we’ve got this one in the bag. Definite Win.

Forest of lava filled with Fire-Element Dire Badgers: Flying Sculpted Flashfreeze or something. Kill ‘em all. Definite Win.

Beholders: Antimagic Field. We are le screwed. Definite Loss.

Totals:
Definite Win: 11
Probable Win: 0
Toss-Up: 0
Probable Loss: 0
Definite Loss: 6

Okay. Now we have a clean divide here: stuff that can’t beat us because of flying, incorporeality, or lack of appropriate damage-dealing or SOD abilities; and stuff that we can’t beat because of powers that we can’t overcome, like Antimagic Field and Regeneration.

Now here, there are some insights too. Incorporeality is good, but not insurmountably so. You'll notice that in some situations (antimagic, regeneration) we are shut down completely, while in others (especially against large amounts of weak or non-flying enemies) we are the bomb. That level of hyperspecialization is expected at high levels, where a Fighter can't talk his way out of a paper sack, a Rogue can't take a single hit, although a Wizard still does everything well.

What the whole test shows is that this class is solidly Wizard-level. Now, that's a perfectly legitimate balance point, but if you want to tone it down... getting rid of Forced Hibernation and the like is a good start, as is bumping flying up to level 7. Aside from that, it seems that toning down the damage scaling might be good if you want to take the power level down.

I hope I've done something helpful here.

-Downzorz

[Epsilon Rose]

Question: Did you remove the healing formulas from Natural Balance? The main formula list shows a few, but a quick search of the Natural Balance page only turns up 'heal' in the numen's description.

If you did remove them, does that mean the only healing formulas are the fast healing ones from Astral Essence?

[DonQuixote]

In response to the same game testing, I'm thinking that leveling the extra damage from major formulae might be one option.  Possibly something like:

2nd	+1d6
3rd	+2d6
4th	+3d6
5th	+4d6
6th	+5d6
7th	+6d6
8th	+7d6
9th	+8d6

While this may seem like a pretty significant damage nerf, note that the spellshape attacks are continuing to scale up to 5d6. That means that you'll be doing 13d6 damage at level 17, without any feats or other damage increases. With the spellshape focus feats and the relevant lamen, a spellshaper would be able to get up to 16d6 damage, plus the effects of whatever formula was actually being shaped. Which, you know, seems like where we actually should be.

It should also be noted, however, that only the spellsage has access to Arcane Knack, and that's making my trigger finger a mite twitchy.  Exactly how many of the tests were influenced by that feature?  Slapping that on the chopping block is a very real possibility, especially if it's having any serious bearing on these results.

Amusingly, Dissipate was already on the chopping block for the Unseen Impetus revision, so this simply reaffirms my decision to axe it.

Question: Did you remove the healing formulas from Natural Balance? The main formula list shows a few, but a quick search of the Natural Balance page only turns up 'heal' in the numen's description.

If you did remove them, does that mean the only healing formulas are the fast healing ones from Astral Essence?

Yes, the healing formulae have been removed from Natural Balance.  I keep forgetting to update the master formula list--I'll try to get that done tonight.

Technically, Devouring Shadow also has a few Crusader's Strike-esque formulae that can recover hit points.  Other than that, though, I think that you're correct.

[Bauglir]

It should be noted that that does mean that it's likely that a character built on dishing out damage will find themselves in a position where it's unambiguously better to full attack than use a major formula. That's probably a good thing, though, since it varies combat up a bit. Basically, if you have at least 2 attacks and at least +3d6 of bonus damage (or at least 3 attacks), you always full attack when you want damage. Only applies against touch AC; the risk of missing against full AC on iteratives is likely too great. That might not be good.

[DonQuixote]

That might not be good.

Which part is this referring to?

I'm not sure how I feel about a world in which full attacks end up being unambiguously better than major formulae.  I shall muse upon it.

[Bauglir]

The part where touch attackers are much better off full-attacking than regular AC-attackers might not be good. If you're hitting regular AC, you're much better off frontloading all your nice shit onto a single attack, since non-touch AC increases faster than you're likely to be able to keep up without full BAB and significant investment. Iteratives are a pain.

And it's only unambiguous when all you want is damage. Chances are, formulae are still preferable.

[Epsilon Rose]

While this may seem like a pretty significant damage nerf, note that the spellshape attacks are continuing to scale up to 5d6. That means that you'll be doing 13d6 damage at level 17, without any feats or other damage increases. With the spellshape focus feats and the relevant lamen, a spellshaper would be able to get up to 16d6 damage, plus the effects of whatever formula was actually being shaped. Which, you know, seems like where we actually should be.

If you're considering nerfing base damage, it might be worth noting that lamens are relatively^* expensive.


^* Relative to magic weapons, to which lamens seem analogous.

[Concerned Ninja Citizen]

I'm not in favor of the damage nerf. Esp at low levels, spellshapers weren't doing much damage already.

[Bauglir]

Possibly a nonlinear progression would work well for this, then. 2d6, 4d6, 5d6, 6d6, 7d6, 8d6, 9d6, 10d6, or something like that.

[Concerned Ninja Citizen]

Reading up on the same game test, it's worth noting that while "wizard level" sounds bad, the level below it is "rogue level" which is below the intended balance point for spellshapers (rogues are tier 4 while this project aims at tier 3.)

In short, somewhat above 50% success (and the average was around 60% ish) is what you're looking for and not a sign of balance problems.

Has anyone run a SGT for other tier 3 classes? Martial Adepts, Beguiler, Factotum, etc?

[DonQuixote]

Fair enough.  I'll sit on the damage issue for now, though I may still end up pushing flight back a formula level.

I will point out, though, that the contemplated change would still leave spellshapers a few dice ahead of warlocks.  Obviously, warlocks are below the intended balance point, but they're far from unplayable, and I suspect spellshapers would still stay ahead.  I'd also lower lamen prices to normal weapon costs to compensate for such a change.

For now, though, I'm going to leave damage as-is.  Mind you, I'm in the middle of honors examinations, followed by graduation from college, so I'm not going to be doing anything for a while, anyway.


Edit: If people still have twitchy Same Game Test trigger fingers, I'd say to give the Akashic Records a good sweep.  In addition to this being an excuse to promote the system, knowing how Akasha scores would actually give me a decent amount of information about how to approach the results.

[Epsilon Rose]

Edit: If people still have twitchy Same Game Test trigger fingers, I'd say to give the Akashic Records a good sweep.  In addition to this being an excuse to promote the system, knowing how Akasha scores would actually give me a decent amount of information about how to approach the results.

You know, that's the second time I've seen you mention Akashic Magic, and each time I look at it I can't help but feel I'm missing something. The flavor seems really cool (I wish more people did stuff with the akashic records), but the classes seem rather bare bones and generic or formulaic.

[Amechra]

It's his roomie's system.