Author Topic: Discussion and Suggestion Thread  (Read 224473 times)

Offline The-Mage-King

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #60 on: December 25, 2011, 01:14:33 PM »
...This is beautiful.


However, I see a niche that needs to be filled.

See, you only have one Initiator/Spellshaper class, and it's a specific one. What you need is a fairly generic one of those. That way, someone who wants to play, say, a Warblade/Spellshape Champion, can do so, without losing much power for the flavor of the combination. You know?

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #61 on: December 26, 2011, 04:11:08 PM »
Hrm...!

Yes, yes.  A generalist initiator/spellshaper is going at the top of the to-do list now.  I had been going to write nine base classes, each of which combined one discipline with one circle, but I prefer this idea much more.

Incidentally, the Codex II PDF is assembled up through the first prestige class.  Shouldn't take much longer, but I don't want to give a time frame in case I exceed it.

Vague News: The Dragonheart Adept was tweaked in response to some feedback in the GitP thread.  The fact that I got Skyward Sword for Christmas has slowed the assembly of the PDF, but I'm forcing myself to do it, bit by bit.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2011, 09:22:41 PM by DonQuixote »
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #62 on: December 28, 2011, 10:26:38 PM »
Okay, so we have a statement of official errata that hasn't been worked into the main body of text yet.  This is because doing so will take forever and I want to finish the Codex II PDF first.  So, for the purpose of RAW DMs who point at the various maximums referenced in this material, we have the following!

Quote from: OFFICIAL ERRATA
   In the case of any ability, class feature, or other part of the spellshaping material that scales by shaper (or initiator) level and references a "maximum" value--for example, many spellshape attacks mention a maximum amount of damage at 17th level--these maximums are intended to be used only in non-epic play.  Epic characters continue to advance at the same rate that they did before reaching these "maximums."  For example, a 21st-level elemental adept has a fireblast attack that deals 6d6 points of fire damage, even though fireblast is said to reach its maximum damage of 5d6 points of fire damage at 17th level.  Similarly, an anchorite's spellshape aura bonuses continue to advance beyond 20th level, and a dragonheart adept's enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls continues to increase by +1 every three levels.

(click to show/hide)

This ruling is immortalized here, in the "Notes on the Rules of Spellshaping" section.

Random Format Update: Because it was difficult to find, Idiosyncratic Shaper has now been re-posted in all of the base class threads.


PDF Progress Update (12/29/11): I'm forcing myself to work on the Codex II PDF, bit by bit, and I've gotten into a fairly decent pace.  It should not take more than a few days for me to finish it, though I'm currently being hampered even more than usual due to the necessity of applying for summer internships.

Post-PDF Projections: The first thing that I'm going to try to get up will be the as-of-yet-unnamed generalist spellshaper/initiator, whose entire existence is currently shrouded in mystery.  I'm sorting through a bunch of ideas, so we'll see how that turns out.

After that, I'm going to put up the also-as-of-yet-unnamed fire-based spellshaper.  It is basically my gift to myself, existing simultaneously as a callback to the origins of this project (a pyromancer class) and an exploration of the different things that I can do with my favorite element (which is fire).  It will start with access to Searing Flame, then gain additional circles in a way similar to the anchorite.  These additional circles will all be automatically reshaped, as with the dragonheart adept.

The next thing that I hope to write--and these are all hopes, mind you, I have no idea how much of this will actually be feasible--will be a new circle.  Screeching Roc, a sound-based circle.  Yes, it is a pun.  No, I have no regrets.

After that--jeez, this is a long To-Do list--I'm planning to post some new options for the elemental adept, as it is currently one of the most limited classes.
  • The first set of options will be alternatives to the current secondary circles (Shocking Current, Deteriorating Corrosion, Brilliant Dawn, and Perfect Freeze).  This variant will result in the following elemental circle combinations: Blustering Gale/Unseen Impetus, Crushing Stone/Screeching Roc, Searing Flame/Shocking Current, and Roaring Tide/Deteriorating Corrosion.
  • The second addition will be the creation of the paraelemental adept, who draws his power from the paraelemental planes of cold, magma, ooze, and smoke.  I haven't decided on the exact circle combinations that will be granted, but I do know that I'm going to have rules for ice, magma, ooze, and smoke elemental companions.
  • Finally, new feats will be added that are designed to be taken by an elemental adept's elemental companion.  I haven't fleshed these out much, but they'll include the ability to change size as a full-round action.  I'm also hoping to let elemental companions play with formulae somehow, but I haven't figured that out yet.

Next, I'm going to attack the idea of writing an illusion-based circle that deals nonlethal damage.  I have no idea whether I'll succeed in writing this--of all the ideas listed here, it's the one that I'm least sure will happen.  No promises here, but I'll at least look into it.

Finally, I'm planning to write a prestige class or series of prestige classes that combines the powers of Brilliant Dawn and Devouring Shadow.  I don't know much about what I'm going to do with this one yet, except that I'll almost certainly let you adjust the ambient light level as a supernatural ability.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 08:27:08 PM by DonQuixote »
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #63 on: December 30, 2011, 07:30:26 AM »
What's this?  A Codex II PDF?  Madness.

Update: So, some Codex I changes have been pushed through.  The spellshape champion's recovery mechanic now allows you to recover all of your expended formulae, the physical-damage spellshape attacks now note that you may use your shaper level in place of your base attack bonus (instead of forcing you to do so), and the Extra Prepared Formula and Formula Study feats can now be taken multiple times.

However, there's no new Codex I PDF yet.  Why, you ask?  It was pointed out that the spellshape champion can hold aggro a lot better than other tank classes, but doesn't have any defensive abilities.  Thus, I'm trying to cook something up for that.  Since that's also a Codex I change, I figured that I wouldn't bother with a new PDF until that's in it, too.

Speaking of which, any ideas for a defensive class feature?

Update of the Update: I ended up stealing the crusader's Furious Counterstrike and Steely Resolve combo for the spellshape champion.  Except that, instead of a bonus on attacks and damage rolls, Shaper's Focus gives you a +1 bonus to your shaper level and a +2 bonus to your AC for every 5 points of damage in your delayed damage pool.

Update of the Update of the Update: Codex I PDF updated.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 09:48:18 PM by DonQuixote »
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline Amechra

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A Present for You!
« Reply #64 on: January 07, 2012, 08:48:42 PM »
I made Spellshaping an Archetype for my Salvager! Take a look.

Link
"There is happiness for those who accept their fate, there is glory for those that defy it."

"Now that everyone's so happy, this is probably a good time to tell you I ate your parents."

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #65 on: January 08, 2012, 05:26:20 AM »
Merged the link into here temporarily while I figure out what to do organizationally with spellshaping material that is posted elsewhere as a part of a larger project.  I think it's going to end up resulting in a sticky.

Interesting stuff, though.  I'm reading through it now.

Incidentally: Melee-based spellshaping classes and prestige classes now note that they are generally immune to the harmful effects of formulae that they shape through melee attacks.  It would be kind of silly, otherwise.

Update: Updated PDFs have been posted.

Secondary Update: Well, I've finished the rules text for the spellshaper/martial adept.  I'm literally finished with everything except for the name and the flavor...

...and that's probably going to take me another day.  Flavor always takes significantly longer for me than actual mechanics.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2012, 03:10:15 AM by DonQuixote »
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #66 on: January 10, 2012, 11:12:24 PM »
The Mage-Knight is up, with a terrible name as usual.  But, hey, it's a pretty good combination of martial maneuvers and arcane formulae.

Meanwhile, the Index now includes a "Materials Using Spellshaping" section, for things like the salvager that use spellshaping without being based entirely in the system.

Other things that will happen tonight:
  • I'll update the Codex II PDF so that the counterspell ability of the Spellshape Paragon is based off of shaper level, rather than class level.  Edit: Did this.
  • I'll make various changes to the dragonheart adept, as described hereEdit: Did this, too.

Update: The spellshape champion looked so sad with so few formulae known and prepared, so I gave it more.  I also changed its recovery mechanic so that you have to have hit an opponent with a melee attack in order to recover, meaning that you can't just take Spellshape Study and become an all-ranged character.  Spellshape Paragon no longer gives you an additional formula at 3rd level, as it now maps perfectly to the number of formulae in a circle without that compensation.  Updated PDFs to come.

1/11/12: Both PDFs updated.

1/13/12: The Flamespeaker is up because nobody is allowed to doubt what my favorite element is.  (No, it is not water.)
« Last Edit: January 13, 2012, 04:03:00 AM by DonQuixote »
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #67 on: January 13, 2012, 04:19:49 PM »
Type 2 Idiot Crusader Impulse Mage (WIP)
(click to show/hide)

Never mind. This doesn't work. The spellshaping rules have enough differences from ToB that it can't be done (nothing keeping your classes' formulae separate for one; the whole small section on multiclassed spellshapers is pretty sparse). Still, plenty of Charisma synergy in the classes, which is fun to note.

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #68 on: January 13, 2012, 04:38:14 PM »
Type 2 Idiot Crusader Impulse Mage (WIP)
(click to show/hide)

Never mind. This doesn't work. The spellshaping rules have enough differences from ToB that it can't be done (nothing keeping your classes' formulae separate for one; the whole small section on multiclassed spellshapers is pretty sparse). Still, plenty of Charisma synergy in the classes, which is fun to note.

Hrm.  I actually tried to more or less copy out the rules on Readying (Preparing) Maneuvers (Formulae).  I just went back and checked, and the clause keeping maneuvers separate isn't actually in the Multiclass section of Tome of Battle.  I do want to have that clause, though, to prevent you from assigning formulae willy-nilly according to class bonuses and recovery mechanics.  Any idea where it is?

Also, by causing me to review the rules, you led me to find an out-of-date reference to a limit on how many times you can take Formula Study.  I'll change that at the same time as adding this.

Can't decide how urgent it is to go into sublime shaper and specify that the immunity only applies to your sublime shaper formulae.  It makes it a bit of a cheesy dip for ranged shapers, but I'm not sure exactly how terrible that is, since you're dipping for the purpose of not being quite ranged.

When you say "Not really worth it, given Dragonheart Adept," are you referring to the invoking sage in general, or just its use in this build?
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #69 on: January 13, 2012, 04:49:16 PM »
Just it's use in the build and as a small-level dip in general.

IIRC, the rules against learning/readying the same maneuver from multiple classes, and from sharing between, was from the FAQ (one of the parts that people don't seem to refer to as "Skip Smokes Crack" for some reason). It may have been form the online Ask the Sage column (but I think most of those were put in the FAQ anyways).

Also, one of the classes I was looking at (I think it was Dragonheart Mage) had a typo. I think it was in the section about the spellshape breath weapon. I wish I'd recorded it. All I remember was that it said "you" instead of whatever the word was supposed to actually be.

By the way, wasn't there some feat akin to Extra Granted Maneuver for Impulse Mages? I can't find it. I also can't find any rules talking about what happens when you get more formulae prepared when you use granted formulae.

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #70 on: January 13, 2012, 05:00:37 PM »
Whenever I try to quote someone in this subforum, I inevitably accidentally hit the "Edit" button first.  Having mod powers is weird.

Just it's use in the build and as a small-level dip in general.

Ah, all right.  So I don't need to freak out and rebuild everything.

IIRC, the rules against learning/readying the same maneuver from multiple classes, and from sharing between, was from the FAQ (one of the parts that people don't seem to refer to as "Skip Smokes Crack" for some reason). It may have been form the online Ask the Sage column (but I think most of those were put in the FAQ anyways).

Ahh, okay.  I'll sniff that out and include it, then.  Errata will be that you cannot learn a formula that you already know from another class, and you cannot prepare formulae between classes.  Which means that selecting circles from which you already know all the 1st-level formulae allows the idiot impulse mage.

Also, one of the classes I was looking at (I think it was Dragonheart Mage) had a typo. I think it was in the section about the spellshape breath weapon. I wish I'd recorded it. All I remember was that it said "you" instead of whatever the word was supposed to actually be.

Typoooos!  :shakefist  I can't even count how many times I've typed "adn" instead of "and."  I'll find this later and fix it.

By the way, wasn't there some feat akin to Extra Granted Maneuver for Impulse Mages? I can't find it. I also can't find any rules talking about what happens when you get more formulae prepared when you use granted formulae.

So, the rules are listed whenever gaining an additional formula comes up.  Because they're different based on whether you gain the formulae from impulse mage class levels (in which case you just use the table) or if you gain them in some other way.

The Extra Prepared Formula feat:
Quote from: Extra Prepared Formula
Extra Prepared Formula
You are an unusually perspicacious student of spellshaping, and you find it easy to keep a large number of formulae ready for use.
   Prerequisite: One level in a spellshaper class
   Benefit: Increase the number of formulae you can prepare for your spellshaper levels by one.  For example, a 5th-level spellsage can normally prepare six formulae.  With this feat, she can prepare seven.
   If you are an impulse mage, an additional formula also occurs to you at the beginning of an encounter and whenever you recover your expended formulae.
   Special: You can take this feat multiple times, gaining an additional prepared formula each time.  However, you cannot take this feat if doing so would cause the number of formulae that you can prepare to exceed the number of formulae that you know.

The rules on spellshaping prestige classes:
Quote from: Advancing Spellshaping Progression
If you choose to add the formula prepared to an arcane formula progression derived from impulse mage class levels, one additional formula also occurs to you at the beginning of an encounter (and whenever you recover your expended formulae) for each additional formula you can prepare.

There wasn't an exact analogue to Extra Granted Maneuver that I can remember writing, since I just let you take Extra Prepared Formula.  Crusaders can't take Extra Readied Maneuver.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2012, 05:14:43 PM by DonQuixote »
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #71 on: January 14, 2012, 05:51:46 PM »
Typo in Sublime Shaper, Formulas and Maneuvers Prepared. The same type is also present in Dragonheart Mage. "May" should be "make".
Quote
However, whenever you may a full attack,

You need to tighten up your wording with Extra Prepared Formula. As written, the extra occuring formula applies based on whether or not you are an Impulse Mage, not whether or not you get extra prepared Impulse Mage formulae. Also, I think it, as written, applies to ALL spellshaping classes you possess, not just one. And I'm pretty sure that the limit of taking it based on your prepared vs. known formulae would be rather nonsensical on a multiclassed spellshaper who knows things from multiple classes.

Elemental Channeler's Elemental Shape ability refers to taking the form of an animal. Shouldn't it be an element, instead?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2012, 06:18:15 PM by Garryl »

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #72 on: January 14, 2012, 08:28:54 PM »
Fixed the wording on sublime shaper and dragonheart adept, cleaned up the feat, and posted a new PDF with errata to the system and the updated feat.  You now cannot learn a formula that you already know, cannot prepare formulae across spellshaping classes, and specifically are noted as using all your formulae--even those from other classes--only for the purpose of meeting a formula's prerequisite.  All in the Rules of Spellshaping issue.

In terms of the elemental channeler, the idea is that you turn into an animal made of your element.  Like a bird made of water or a bear made of stone.  Or a fire dolphin, if you took the class for the porpoise of going swimming in lava.
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #73 on: January 15, 2012, 12:23:59 AM »
Mwahaha. I now have a simple, Cha-focused Idiot Impulse Mage. Disciple of the Circles really goes well with it, since you have so many refreshed formulae that you can't use them all no matter what you do. This is just a first draft, leaving as many of your choices open as possible. More specific versions could be made better.

(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: January 15, 2012, 12:32:18 AM by Garryl »

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #74 on: January 15, 2012, 01:10:28 AM »
I...what.

Is this a thing that I should prevent?  It's...simultaneously fascinating and horrifying.

Edit: Crippled it slightly.  While dragonheart adept still gets Scales at 2nd level, you don't start adding your Charisma bonus until 4th level.  If this is a problem for its AC, then I'll just switch the Charisma bonus onto a generic AC bonus ability so that they just don't stack.  Screw it, just made it an AC bonus ability so that they didn't stack.  Easier that way.

Sublime Shaper's Guard now only applies to your sublime shaper formulae.

Also, edited the AC bonuses on dragonheart adept and sublime shaper so that they specifically do not stack with similar AC bonuses, such as from taking levels in disciple of the circles.  I'm not sure that I'm okay with allowing you to add the same stat to your AC multiple times.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2012, 01:55:02 AM by DonQuixote »
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #75 on: January 15, 2012, 11:47:59 AM »
Embrace it. Or not. I guess I'm just destruction-testing one aspect of your system. Take from it what you will.

With those changes, I'd switch the first few levels to Spellsage (Idiosyncratic Invoking Battle Sage) 2/Dragonheart Mage or Sublime Shaper 1/Impulse Mage 1/Spellsage +1 (which actually lets you get the Idiot Impulse Mage running sooner, at 4th level). More invocations, too, but fewer stances. Edgewalker Knight is no longer needed, but 2 levels are still tasty for Cha to saves and a few immunities. Using Spellsage also opens up your options dramatically for later circle access. The Battle Sage's Int to AC (now Cha with Idiosyncratic) still stacks with Disciple of the Circles, so that's nice. Replace Elemental Channeler with Spellforge Warsmith for Cha to attack rolls in melee (synergistic with Disciple's Strike, which also asks you to attack in melee). Master Reshaper 2 might also be helpful to keep your formulae available even with the single spellshape in your weapon.

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #76 on: January 15, 2012, 02:47:39 PM »
Argh, okay, I'm going to go errata in that Battle Sage's AC bonus doesn't stack with others.  As I said, I'm not sure that I'm okay with the same ability score going to your AC multiple times.

Nitpick on Spellforge Warsmith/Disciple's Strike: Spellforge weapons aren't melee touch attacks, so you can't use both.
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #77 on: January 15, 2012, 04:31:39 PM »
Ah. I confused it with Spellshape Hand, which lets you make spellshape attacks as melee or melee touch, as appropriate to the spellshape in question. Shame that Disciple's Strike only works with touch attacks, since there are still a few non-touch spellshapes that it won't work with.

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #78 on: January 15, 2012, 04:43:18 PM »
That's a thing that I'm going to fix when I errata Battle Sage.  Thanks for pointing that one out to me.

Edit: Errata applied online, working on updated PDF.

Update: Updated Codex II PDF is up.

Statement of Intent: Looks like I'm going to start poking around for Screeching Roc ideas.  We'll see what I come up with.

Update: Well, I've come up with seventeen possible ideas, though I think I'm going to have to play around some more before I start trying to put them together as formulae.  Especially since I don't feel that there are enough minor formula effects thus far.

Update Again: I've figured out what all the Screeching Roc formulae will do.  Now, I just need to name them and write them up in a format that isn't terrible.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2012, 12:18:03 PM by DonQuixote »
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« Reply #79 on: January 23, 2012, 03:37:40 PM »
So!  A point for discussion.  My girlfriend playtested a flamedancer last night, and she raised an interesting point. Entering as a swordsage/spellshape champion, she had four readied maneuvers and four prepared formulae. However, recovering maneuvers took a full-round action, while recovering formulae was a move action. Moreover, advancing as a flamedancer gives you three more maneuvers readied and two more formulae prepared, making recovery incredibly painful, even at higher levels.

Is there any reason that I shouldn't hand the sublime shaper's recovery mechanic to flamedancers and edgewalker knights? It would specify that you cannot recover any maneuvers or formulae in a round in which you benefited from it, obviously.

The one potential problem would be crusaders and impulse mages, but I think that--as written--choosing to recover a maneuver by shaping a formula (or vice versa) would simply prevent you from doing the "big refresh" that re-scrambles your maneuvers and formulae.
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”