Discussion and Suggestion Thread

[DonQuixote]

Incidentally, new spellsage options.

[Garryl]

Sage: S-A-G-E.  Sage.

Haw haw. How very droll.

Shame that the feats are so very incompatible with the various ACFs. Arcane Talent, for instance, doesn't work with either of the ACFs presented in the same article.

Arcane Mastery needs to change the wording on the counter effect, or provide a greater version at higher levels. Dispel Magic caps out at a +10 bonus, so you'll be kind of ineffective after that.
   That's an awful lot of Int mod per day abilities to keep track of.

[DonQuixote]

Changed most of the Int modifier/day abilities to three or four times per day, for bookkeeping ease.  Also added to the counterspell ability: "and the maximum bonus on your dispel check is +20 (instead of +10)."  Fixed that same problem in the Impulse Mage options and the Sublime Shaper.  Technically, I should go into Spellshape Paragon (Codex II) and update that one, too, but that will happen later (today).

In terms of the feats and incompatibility, part of my problem is finding unique, spellsage-oriented effects.  The other classes tended to build off of class features...but the spellsage really only has two class features: scaling bonus to saves and spell-like abilities.

I had a lot of trouble coming up with ideas for spellsage options, so I went with my gut.  Also note that a stoichen elemental adept cannot benefit from any of the [Companion] feats, and a Temporal Impulses impulse mage can't teleport around the battlefield.

[Garryl]

I just found it particularly weird that the feat based on casting (Arcane Talent) spells didn't work with the ACF based on casting spells slightly differently (Divine Gift). The rest make sense: A Stoichen isn't a companion, a Temporal Impulse Mage doesn't teleport, etc.. But a Divine Gift Spellsage is still casting spells, just from a different list, and an Arcane Master Spellsage still casts a whole bunch of spells, just in a more limited manner (although I can easily see that bit being too much of a stretch).

It's a shame the Spellsage doesn't have a couple more class features. It feels just a bit bare with only 2 real class features other than spellshaping (Int to saves and a bunch of spells).

[DonQuixote]

First off, cambians have been added.  Because I hate doing things in the order that I planned on doing them, apparently.

I just found it particularly weird that the feat based on casting (Arcane Talent) spells didn't work with the ACF based on casting spells slightly differently (Divine Gift). The rest make sense: A Stoichen isn't a companion, a Temporal Impulse Mage doesn't teleport, etc.. But a Divine Gift Spellsage is still casting spells, just from a different list, and an Arcane Master Spellsage still casts a whole bunch of spells, just in a more limited manner (although I can easily see that bit being too much of a stretch).

Divine Gift is something that I'm trying to wrestle with, in terms of Arcane Talent.  There's probably a way to give more uses, but...I'm not quite sure how to word it.

It's a shame the Spellsage doesn't have a couple more class features. It feels just a bit bare with only 2 real class features other than spellshaping (Int to saves and a bunch of spells).

Right, but those spells can be selected from the entire sorcerer/wizard list, giving you a high level of customization and...well, it feels pretty potent.  I probably am going to end up throwing more class features at them soon, if only to make it easier for me to write the Living Spellshape racial substitution levels.


Edit: I can't think of a single blasted class feature to add.  I don't want to add a familiar, since spellshape champions already get that, and there are few other iconic abilities that I can think of.  On top of that, my gut reaction--that one spell-like ability of each spell level is pretty decent in terms of a class's features--seems to have been borne out by the evidence that I've seen.

I also had some ideas for the Living Spellshape spellsage, but they didn't scream "Living Spellshape spellsage" so much as they did "Living Spellshape spellshaper."  Which isn't really enough, so I scrapped them.

[DonQuixote]

Incidentally, the "About Spellshaping" thread now contains a rough transcription of my current "To-Do" list.  I say "rough" because not everything is included--ideas that are still fairly vague, or that I'm not yet entirely sure about, are conspicuously absent from this version of the list.

Edit: Touched up Arcane Talent so that it should work with Divine Gift.  I think this wording accommodates for the weirdness, but I could be wrong.

[samnemath]

A little question about sculpt spellshape.

What happens when you sculpt a formula that creates an effect around someone you hit. Flattening Gale for example.
If you sculpt it would it create a column around each person tha fails his reflex save?

[DonQuixote]

Currently, yes, the formula would create a separate effect around each affected creature.

[DonQuixote]

Incidentally, another race.  Living spellshapes: for all your magical ooze needs.

A lot of credit on this one goes to my roommate, who's been building an ooze race for her own homebrew system.  The Primitive Vision and Amorphous Body abilities are pretty much entirely stolen her ooze race.

[Nanshork]

I like it!  I especially like the Living Spell familiar option.

[DonQuixote]

I like it!  I especially like the Living Spell familiar option.

I figured that pretty much everyone would be able to agree on oozes with ooze familiars that can also summon oozes.


Also, whoa.  I finally got around to explaining what spellshaping actually is.  Wasn't expecting to do that tonight.

[Nanshork]

Also, I just want to say that I've been slowly looking at things here and there and so far I really really like the system that you have built.  I don't understand it all quite yet, but I like what I've seen just the same.  Enough that your Spellshaping Codices are in the "homebrew I really like" section of my extended signature.   

[samnemath]

In the living spellshape race's alternate spellsage levels. In the 3rd level you add Living Spellshape Familiar. In the table Honed Mind doesn't appear as it should since in the text you say Familiar doesn't replace anything.

Just to clarify.
You loose a total of 8 formula's known for all those features?

[DonQuixote]

Also, I just want to say that I've been slowly looking at things here and there and so far I really really like the system that you have built.  I don't understand it all quite yet, but I like what I've seen just the same.  Enough that your Spellshaping Codices are in the "homebrew I really like" section of my extended signature.   

   I'm honored!

In the living spellshape race's alternate spellsage levels. In the 3rd level you add Living Spellshape Familiar. In the table Honed Mind doesn't appear as it should since in the text you say Familiar doesn't replace anything.

Just to clarify.
You loose a total of 8 formula's known for all those features?

Herp-a-derp, forgot that Honed Mind was at that level.

And you lose a formula at 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th levels.  Total of nine formulae.  On the other hand, you'll still know 25 formulae at 20th level.

[The-Mage-King]

Thing about the Living Spell familiar: Is Spell Immunity suppressable?

If it is, then good.


If it isn't, the guy who summons a Living Mass CLW is going to be upset.

[DonQuixote]

....Hum.

>.>

<.<

What are you talking about?  Spell Immunity has always been suppressible!

[pppp]

Hey! I love your work! It's brilliant! Long-time lurker, I registered to comment new stuff and hopefully help you improve your work a bit.

Firstly, Arcane Mastery ACF is a bit weak, especially first ability. Compare it to Invoking Sage who picked Magic Insight invocation (dragon magic). Arcane master can use detect magic just few times per day. Invoking Sage has unlimited detect magic as well component-free identify item. Who is better? I'd rather have ML-based arcane sight instead of detect magic (with intelligence modifier per day limitation), because even unlimited detect magic would be a lackluster compared to Magic Insight invocation.

Secondly, more abilities of this path are looking weak, when they are compared to their counterparts obtained by normal spellsage, spellsage with divine gift or invoking spellsage (especially 14th and 20th level).

How domains of Divine Gift ability interacts with Devotion feats?

Phantasmal Blast is much more limited than other spellshape attacks. Constructs and undeads are frequent enemies and no other spellshape attack has such limited scope.

Thank you very much for your wonderful creations

[DonQuixote]

Arcane Mastery is designed for fighting mages.  Sure, invoking sage might have more possible applications, but--as one of my players demonstrated last night--an antimagic ray cast during a surprise round can more or less change the entire nature of the encounter.

The rules on domains and devotion feats specify cleric in their description, so, no.  Domains received through the Divine Gift alternative class feature cannot be traded out for devotion feats.

Yes, phantasmal blast is more limited.  However, so are illusions.  Undead and constructs are, last I checked, immune to phantasms and patterns--making most of your abilities that would affect them useless in any case.

[pppp]

Arcane Mastery is designed for fighting mages.  Sure, invoking sage might have more possible applications, but--as one of my players demonstrated last night--an antimagic ray cast during a surprise round can more or less change the entire nature of the encounter.

Let me explain myself - this patch isn't worthless. It has few powerful and unique effects, as antimagic ray or  spell resistance. But some of its abilities (2nd level, 14th level and 20th level) are weaker than appropraite abilities of other ACFs and standard spellsage.

The rules on domains and devotion feats specify cleric in their description, so, no.  Domains received through the Divine Gift alternative class feature cannot be traded out for devotion feats.

Thanks for clarification!

Yes, phantasmal blast is more limited.  However, so are illusions.  Undead and constructs are, last I checked, immune to phantasms and patterns--making most of your abilities that would affect them useless in any case.

Yes, they are, but limiting Fleeting Image spellshape attack to nonlethal damage reduces one's ability to deal with such creatures even more. No other circle is so specialized.

[DonQuixote]

Let me explain myself - this patch isn't worthless. It has few powerful and unique effects, as antimagic ray or  spell resistance. But some of its abilities (2nd level, 14th level and 20th level) are weaker than appropraite abilities of other ACFs and standard spellsage.

I'll give it another look, but I'm generally of the opinion that not every level needs to be equally powerful, so long as the build as a whole has interesting components.  We'll see, though!

Yes, they are, but limiting Fleeting Image spellshape attack to nonlethal damage reduces one's ability to deal with such creatures even more. No other circle is so specialized.

Right, but--unlike a beguiler--no spellshaper is restricted to only Fleeting Image formulae.  Specializing in illusions means that your specialization will be useless against things not subject to illusions.  However, you'll still--at the very least--have the spellshape attacks from your other circles.