Discussion and Suggestion Thread

[radmelon]

Don't forget the necromental template, from Libris Mortis. Fun times. 

Actually, the necromental template still works.  Just change the natural armor increase to a +2 profane bonus to AC and remove the "Charisma score changes to 1" bit.  Otherwise, your fluid elementals will be very confused.

I was actually more thinking about the cascading prefixes that had been discussed. I'm sure that with sufficient thought, you could mix almost all of the concepts in D&D into one insane incarnation.

[DonQuixote]

I'm not sure if you could HAVE a necromental of a quasielemental, though.  Depending on the quasielemental, it'd either be redundant or self-destructive.

[DonQuixote]

Bauglir just damned us all.  Film at eleven.

[Nanshork]

Bauglir just damned us all.  Film at eleven.

When can we expect results? 

[DonQuixote]

Well, I'm currently at 26/48...but my sister's going to be here for the latter half of the week.  So we'll see.

Bauglir damned us all by suggesting that the solution to my conflicted emotions about out-of-combat magic for spellshapers could be solved by means of skill tricks.  Which now means that I'm coming up with three out-of-combat spell-like abilities for each circle, which will be gated with prerequisites and purchased with skill points.

The actual mechanics are stealing borrowing heavily from some of Hanako's homebrew, and basically pan out as follows.  When you first purchase the lowest-level ability--which will require that you know the spellshape attack from the relevant circle--you can use it once per day.  Once you purchase the mid-level ability--which will require that you know at least two formulae from the relevant circle and have a shaper level of at least 7th--you'll be able to use that once per day and the lowest-level ability three times per day.  When you finally purchase the highest-level ability--which will require that you know at least four formulae from the relevant circle and have a shaper level of at least 13th--you'll be able to use that ability once per day, the mid-level ability three times per day, and the lowest-level ability at-will.  Obviously, you'll have to have the lowest-level ability in order to purchase the mid-level ability, and you'll have to have the mid-level ability in order to purchase the highest-level ability.

I'm trying like hell to only give things that wouldn't be primarily used in combat, but I'm almost certain that some will, technically, have in-combat usage.  For example, I'm planning on giving Searing Flame a version of the control flames power, which is cool for the whole controlling fire thing...but can technically be used to control fire onto people.  At the same time, controlling fire is so much of a thing that they should be able to do that I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

Edit: Having said all that, I'm also toying with distributing the out-of-combat abilities through feats, rather than skill points.  Taking one feat would grant you access to a single circle's set of abilities...but you'd have to meet the prerequisites in order to use the higher-level ones, as well as to get the extra daily uses of the lower-level ones.

[The-Mage-King]

So... Sorta like PF's Equipment Trick feat? Where you get access to a bunch of abilities, if you have the right feat/skills?



Also, 13 formulae thought out for the teleport-themed PrC I'm working on. Should I go for a few more, or just finish those, format it, and post it?

[Nanshork]

Well, I'm currently at 26/48...but my sister's going to be here for the latter half of the week.  So we'll see.

Bauglir damned us all by suggesting that the solution to my conflicted emotions about out-of-combat magic for spellshapers could be solved by means of skill tricks.  Which now means that I'm coming up with three out-of-combat spell-like abilities for each circle, which will be gated with prerequisites and purchased with skill points.

The actual mechanics are stealing borrowing heavily from some of Hanako's homebrew, and basically pan out as follows.  When you first purchase the lowest-level ability--which will require that you know the spellshape attack from the relevant circle--you can use it once per day.  Once you purchase the mid-level ability--which will require that you know at least two formulae from the relevant circle and have a shaper level of at least 7th--you'll be able to use that once per day and the lowest-level ability three times per day.  When you finally purchase the highest-level ability--which will require that you know at least four formulae from the relevant circle and have a shaper level of at least 13th--you'll be able to use that ability once per day, the mid-level ability three times per day, and the lowest-level ability at-will.  Obviously, you'll have to have the lowest-level ability in order to purchase the mid-level ability, and you'll have to have the mid-level ability in order to purchase the highest-level ability.

I'm trying like hell to only give things that wouldn't be primarily used in combat, but I'm almost certain that some will, technically, have in-combat usage.  For example, I'm planning on giving Searing Flame a version of the control flames power, which is cool for the whole controlling fire thing...but can technically be used to control fire onto people.  At the same time, controlling fire is so much of a thing that they should be able to do that I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

Edit: Having said all that, I'm also toying with distributing the out-of-combat abilities through feats, rather than skill points.  Taking one feat would grant you access to a single circle's set of abilities...but you'd have to meet the prerequisites in order to use the higher-level ones, as well as to get the extra daily uses of the lower-level ones.

I like the idea, like it a lot.  I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with.   

[DonQuixote]

So... Sorta like PF's Equipment Trick feat? Where you get access to a bunch of abilities, if you have the right feat/skills?

Probably not.  The more that I think about it, the more that I prefer the skill trick setup.  It just means that I'm going to have to avoid anything too game-changing.  Which is actually what I want to do anyway, so that works out nicely.

Also, 13 formulae thought out for the teleport-themed PrC I'm working on. Should I go for a few more, or just finish those, format it, and post it?

Well, you're eight formulae short of standard circle size, but--given that it's a prestige class, rather than a standard circle--I don't think that's actually a problem.  Go with your gut.

I like the idea, like it a lot.  I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with.   

Let's just hope I can pull it off without breaking anything.

[The-Mage-King]

Probably not.  The more that I think about it, the more that I prefer the skill trick setup.  It just means that I'm going to have to avoid anything too game-changing.  Which is actually what I want to do anyway, so that works out nicely.

Eh. It was something to point out.

Well, you're eight formulae short of standard circle size, but--given that it's a prestige class, rather than a standard circle--I don't think that's actually a problem.  Go with your gut.

And gut says go with advice. :/


 


I'll clean it up a bit and post it over on Giantitp.




EDIT: Noticed something in Searing Flame's thread. Searing Blast (a Minor formula) has a shaping time of 1 standard. That... Might need to be fixed.

[DonQuixote]

EDIT: Noticed something in Searing Flame's thread. Searing Blast (a Minor formula) has a shaping time of 1 standard. That... Might need to be fixed.

My shame knows no end.  Doubly so since I always make fun of Tome of Battle for having made the same mistake on Searing Blade.

It shall be fixed!

Edit: While I haven't fixed that one yet--I prefer to do Codex changes when I can change the PDFs at the same time--I did finally work out a new Elemental Perfection for elemental companions.  I also added a new companion feat that makes Engulf-based builds actually viable.

[DonQuixote]

Hrm.  Through a long and involved process, I started considering replacing the elemental adept capstone.  An elemental adept already has an elemental companion and the ability to summon elementals--giving you "another elemental, but bigger!" just seems kind of...lackluster now.

Thoughts on this?  It might be too much, but I figured that dread necromancers get to go lich at level 20.  The primary difference is that you need to kill the elemental adept on a specific plane, rather than killing him and then finding his favorite toy.

(click to show/hide)

If you are slain, your essence transfers to the Elemental Plane of your chosen element.  Upon transference, your physical remains (should they still exist) become inert matter formed of your chosen element and cannot thereafter be restored to life.

Once this transference is complete, your body reforms over 1d10 days.  The body's constituent parts are formed from the material of your chosen element, then slowly molded and transformed into a living, breathing body that is an exact duplicate of your body at the time of your death.  Precise accuracy as to where on the Elemental Plane your body reforms is nigh impossible.  Though you can attempt to specify a location, your rebirth occurs 5 to 500 miles (5d%) from your intended location.

At the end of this period, you are brought back to life as if by a true resurrection spell.  You possess all of the abilities you possessed at the time of your death, but you have none of your equipment.

If you are killed on the Elemental Plane of your chosen element, you die normally and your soul passes on.

[Nanshork]

I agree that it is underwhelming, especially since you can use Elemental Magic to cast Summon Elemental Monolith.

I like the ability as well.


If you do this perhaps have Call the Elements let you summon a Greater elemental at 20th level too? 

[Nanshork]

Here's a question. 

A first level Elemental Adept picks Earth as his element, and thus gains +1 shaper level to spellshape attacks.
Rockslam uses Shaper level for BAB.  Is his effective BAB for Rockslam 1 for being first level or is it 2?

Edit: Also, how do you determine which spellshape attacks/ formulae are spell-like abilities and which ones aren't?

Edit again: Things that add caster level to spell-like abilities won't actually have any effect on formulae will they since formulae reference Shaper Level instead of Caster Level?

[DonQuixote]

Here's a question. 

A first level Elemental Adept picks Earth as his element, and thus gains +1 shaper level to spellshape attacks.
Rockslam uses Shaper level for BAB.  Is his effective BAB for Rockslam 1 for being first level or is it 2?

Trick question.  An elemental adept doesn't get a +1 shaper level to his chosen circle until level 5.

At which point, to my chagrin, he's treated as having a +6 base attack bonus.  I'll need to figure out how to fix this.

Edit: Also, how do you determine which spellshape attacks/ formulae are spell-like abilities and which ones aren't?

Another trick question.  All spellshape attacks and arcane formulae are spell-like abilities.

In terms of spell resistance, the individual spellshape attack will say if it is not subject to spell resistance.  Whether or not a formula is subject to spell resistance is covered in the "Spell Resistance" section of the formula description.  If the "Spell Resistance" section says "As spellshape," then the formula's subjectivity to spell resistance is rolled into the spellshape attack that it modifies.  For instance, fireblast is subject to spell resistance.  As such, a Searing Flame formula that modifies a fireblast attack is subject to spell resistance...in that it has no effect if the fireblast attack fails to overcome spell resistance.  You'd never roll spell resistance twice, though.

Edit again: Things that add caster level to spell-like abilities won't actually have any effect on formulae will they since formulae reference Shaper Level instead of Caster Level?

Correct, except with regards to spell resistance.  As described under "Shaper Level" in the spellshaping rules:

As described under Spellshape Attacks, the Spell Penetration feat and other effects that improve caster level checks to overcome spell resistance apply to spellshape attacks and arcane formulae.  However, effects that would improve your caster level do not increase your shaper level for any pupose other than overcoming spell resistance.

[Nanshork]

I await your ruling on how the bonus shaper level intersacts with spellshape attacks.

If all formulae are spell-like abilities, why does the rules of spellshaping say this.

Arcane formulae, by contrast, are involved spell-like or supernatural effects that are temporarily expended after use.

[DonQuixote]

I await your ruling on how the bonus shaper level intersacts with spellshape attacks.

The intention is that the base attack bonus substitution with lashing zephyr, rockslam, thornspike, and surging jet should not exceed your character level.

If all formulae are spell-like abilities, why does the rules of spellshaping say this.

Arcane formulae, by contrast, are involved spell-like or supernatural effects that are temporarily expended after use.

Because impulse mages have an 11th-level class feature.  I'll clarify this during the overhaul and revision.

[Nanshork]

So put a line to the effect that the bonus shaper level does not allow your effective base attack bonus for the purposes of spellshape attacks to exceed your character level, or that it does not get calculated into spellshape effective base attack bonuses.  That should take care of that.

Aren't you glad that I go over my characters with a fine toothed comb?   

[DonQuixote]

[old man groan]I'm going to have to put that line into each one of those spellshape attacks...[/old man groan]

I'm also trying to figure out an elegant wording on this one, so don't expect anything immediately.

[Nanshork]

[old man groan]I'm going to have to put that line into each one of those spellshape attacks...[/old man groan]

I'm also trying to figure out an elegant wording on this one, so don't expect anything immediately.

Yeah you probably are, just in case any other Shaper Level bonuses come up.

Understandable.  I've adjusted my character to follow your ruling so I don't need an immediate change, but I'm glad I thought to ask about it instead of just deciding things would work the way that was most favorable.

[The-Mage-King]

...


"you may use your shaper level in place of your base attack bonus on attack rolls with lashing zephyr (but not when determining how many attacks you can make), up to a maximum of your Hit Dice."


There. Simple, elegant, and effective.