Discussion and Suggestion Thread

[Nanshork]

Aww, you're going to kill my extra attacks too?   

[DonQuixote]

...


"you may use your shaper level in place of your base attack bonus on attack rolls with lashing zephyr (but not when determining how many attacks you can make), up to a maximum of your Hit Dice."


There. Simple, elegant, and effective.

Oh, wow.  Work really has been frying my brain this week.

Aww, you're going to kill my extra attacks too?   

That clause was always there, actually.

[Nanshork]

Hmm, apparently I fail at reading comprehension. 

Edit: How's progress on the revamped Elemental Perfection feat coming by the way?

[DonQuixote]

Clearly, you missed that bit today when I posted it.

Also, new Codex I PDF is incoming.  T-minus a few minutes.

Edit: And, new PDF is live!  So, too, are the changes to the elemental adept and the relevant spellshape attacks.  And the Searing Blast fix.

[Nanshork]

Posted where?  It isn't on the Elemental Adept page...

Edit: I am just blind today...

[The-Mage-King]

Random suggestion: a PrC focused on spamming lower level formulae and simple spellshape attacks, trading off access to higher level ones for the ability to use multiple low-level ones at once.

[Bauglir]

Hm, strange interaction there - there's a slight incentive to multiclass for 2 levels, since your class feature will then apply to your attack rolls. Probably outweighed by slowed formulae known progression and other spellshape attacks, but still. You might phrase it as, "Your base shaper level," if you want to create that term, or else just, "Your shaper level, as calculated purely from class levels (with no other modifications, such as an Elemental Adept's Devoted Adept ability)".

[DonQuixote]

Random suggestion: a PrC focused on spamming lower level formulae and simple spellshape attacks, trading off access to higher level ones for the ability to use multiple low-level ones at once.

I'm kind of leery of this one, but I'll think about it.  As I've said elsewhere, I'm not really enamored of the idea of messing with formula progressions.  But I'll consider it!

Hm, strange interaction there - there's a slight incentive to multiclass for 2 levels, since your class feature will then apply to your attack rolls. Probably outweighed by slowed formulae known progression and other spellshape attacks, but still. You might phrase it as, "Your base shaper level," if you want to create that term, or else just, "Your shaper level, as calculated purely from class levels (with no other modifications, such as an Elemental Adept's Devoted Adept ability)".

I wouldn't exactly call it an incentive--your attack bonus still won't be greater than your character level.  That's like saying that a warblade has an incentive to multiclass into barbarian because it won't lower his base attack bonus.

At least, that's how I see it.

[Garryl]

Wait, when did the physical spellshapes start messing with your BaB? Didn't they used to just give a bonus (1/2 your SL, I think) to your attack rolls?

Edit: Shouldn't a character with a high BaB be more accurate than a low BaB character? That's still the case with the touch spellshapes, regardless of SL, why should it be different with the physical ones?

[Bauglir]

I think the major reason is that that sort of bonus can get out of hand quickly, resulting in medium BAB shapers having better-than-full-BAB, effectively. Using shaper level instead guarantees level appropriate values.

I wouldn't exactly call it an incentive--your attack bonus still won't be greater than your character level.  That's like saying that a warblade has an incentive to multiclass into barbarian because it won't lower his base attack bonus.

At least, that's how I see it.

That's fair, I suppose,  but there is a slight difference. In this case, it allows you to utilize a resource you weren't able to before - that isn't true in the case of the warblade and barbarian. It's only a very slight resource, since it affects only one school, but it's the sort of bleeding-edge optimization you get in builds trying to push tier 3s and lower to their limits.

[DonQuixote]

Wait, when did the physical spellshapes start messing with your BaB? Didn't they used to just give a bonus (1/2 your SL, I think) to your attack rolls?

Edit: Shouldn't a character with a high BaB be more accurate than a low BaB character? That's still the case with the touch spellshapes, regardless of SL, why should it be different with the physical ones?

Yeah, my original method of dealing with it was to give you a bonus equal to 1/2 your shaper level on attack rolls with that spellshape attack.  As Bauglir pointed out at the time, though, this meant that, if your base attack bonus was medium or higher, you ended up being more accurate than a full-BAB class.  For example, a twentieth-level earth-devoted elemental adept would have an attack bonus of 26 + Dexterity + any other modifiers.

My solution to this shenanigannery was to just have you use shaper level in place of base attack bonus.  However, as you've pointed out, this has its own problems in terms of classes with different base attack bonuses being equally accurate.

I'm not really happy with the "use shaper level in place of base attack bonus" solution, but I also recognize that outdoing full-BAB classes in the attack bonus department is kind of a kick in the balls.  I'll try to come up with a better solution to this one.

That's fair, I suppose,  but there is a slight difference. In this case, it allows you to utilize a resource you weren't able to before - that isn't true in the case of the warblade and barbarian. It's only a very slight resource, since it affects only one school, but it's the sort of bleeding-edge optimization you get in builds trying to push tier 3s and lower to their limits.

Given that only the attack bonus is restricted to character level, I don't really see it as being any more of an issue than it would have been before.  Multiclassing for two levels will still leave you with a lower shaper level than continued progression--it just won't impact your attack bonus any more.

And, to tell the truth, I don't have a problem with bleeding-edge optimization letting you get a slightly higher attack bonus.  Optimization is always going to exist, and the potential for varied and interesting builds is, in my mind, a strength, not a weakness.  I don't think that +1 attack bonus is going to push anything into game-breaking territory, so I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

[Bauglir]

That's pretty reasonable, it just seemed like kind of a strange interaction result.

[Garryl]

Wait, when did the physical spellshapes start messing with your BaB? Didn't they used to just give a bonus (1/2 your SL, I think) to your attack rolls?

Edit: Shouldn't a character with a high BaB be more accurate than a low BaB character? That's still the case with the touch spellshapes, regardless of SL, why should it be different with the physical ones?

Yeah, my original method of dealing with it was to give you a bonus equal to 1/2 your shaper level on attack rolls with that spellshape attack.  As Bauglir pointed out at the time, though, this meant that, if your base attack bonus was medium or higher, you ended up being more accurate than a full-BAB class.  For example, a twentieth-level earth-devoted elemental adept would have an attack bonus of 26 + Dexterity + any other modifiers.

My solution to this shenanigannery was to just have you use shaper level in place of base attack bonus.  However, as you've pointed out, this has its own problems in terms of classes with different base attack bonuses being equally accurate.

I'm not really happy with the "use shaper level in place of base attack bonus" solution, but I also recognize that outdoing full-BAB classes in the attack bonus department is kind of a kick in the balls.  I'll try to come up with a better solution to this one.

Touch attacks with poor BaB are still more likely to hit than a regular full BaB attack against almost every opponent in the book (incorporeal creatures, Wilders, and VoP Monks are just about the only exceptions, since even very dodgy enemies usually have a few points of armor or natural armor bonuses). Beware of making a double standard about accuracy.

[DonQuixote]

Touch attacks with poor BaB are still more likely to hit than a regular full BaB attack against almost every opponent in the book (incorporeal creatures, Wilders, and VoP Monks are just about the only exceptions, since even very dodgy enemies usually have a few points of armor or natural armor bonuses). Beware of making a double standard about accuracy.

Hrm.  So you think I should just go back to the 1/2 shaper level bonus?

I'll admit, I like that model a lot more.


Edit: On the topic of reverting things to their earlier forms, I'm seriously considering dropping that "reprepare formulae 1/encounter as a swift action," or else changing it such that it expends all your formulae, rather than recovering them.  As it is, it basically lets players bypass most recovery mechanics.

I'm actually leaning towards that second option, now that I think about it.  It would allow you to adapt to certain situations--such as swapping out something for Embrace of the Air if it turns out that the enemy is flying--while still carrying something of a penalty.


Edit Again: Holy crap, Embrace of the Air doesn't let you fly in armor.  I must have forgotten to change this when I wrote the spellshape champion.  I mean, unless I intended to punch an entire class in the balls, but I don't think I did.

I'll fix this tonight.


Edit A Third Time: Definitely going to go with the second option on the swift action swapping of formulae.  It will still be an option, but doing so will leave all of your formulae expended.

This will have to be slightly tweaked for the dragonheart adept and the sublime shaper.  One usage of swift action swap will only let you swap maneuvers or formulae, but will only leave that type of ability expended.  Since these classes primarily recover abilities by swapping a maneuver for a formula, I feel that it would be too crippling for them to lose everything.  Sure, they could slowly full attack their way back up, but it would be a slow and painful process.

[DonQuixote]

Okay, I've applied these changes to the Codex I materials online, and I've printed the relevant PDF pages so that I can update that, too.  However, I'm going to move on to updating the Codex II online materials and the Web Enhancement things, so I'll be throwing up the two PDFs simultaneously later tonight.

Edit: Applied the swift action recovery to the Codex II base classes and the web enhancement ones.  I decided to just have dragonheart adept and sublime shaper bite the bullet like everyone else.

[Nanshork]

So formulae can be swapped as a swift action without being recovered and the "weapon" attack spellshapes now gain a bonus equal to 1/2 shaper level to attack instead of a BAB change.  Any other changes?

[DonQuixote]

Spellshape champion and spellshot marksman now note that they do not gain any bonuses to their attack rolls from channeled spellshape attacks, to prevent shenanigans.

Embrace of the Air now allows you to fly while wearing armor.

Also, do note that the swift action now actively expends all of your formulae, rather than just "not recovering" them.  The only ones that didn't get hit with these are the spellsage, who never had the swift action in the first place, and the impulse mage, for whom "all formulae are expended" translates into "restart the repressed and occurring process" anyway.

[The-Mage-King]

So my little quickly written change has no use. :/


Meh.


Anyway, a question.


What feats would you say should be required for the teleportation PrC I'm working on? Something fluffy, I'd say, since there's plenty of power for it already, and it should have a tax...

[DonQuixote]

What feats would you say should be required for the teleportation PrC I'm working on? Something fluffy, I'd say, since there's plenty of power for it already, and it should have a tax...

Man, it is so tempting to say Mobility.

But if you want a two-feat tax, go with Shaper's Stride.  It itself requires Sculpt Spellshape, but the teleportation effect it gives you seems far from irrelevant.

[The-Mage-King]

Stride works. Here you go.