Discussion and Suggestion Thread

[DonQuixote]

I'm not sure if you could draw stone out like that, is the thing.  I'm not sure at all.

I tend to view it as shaping the stone that is touched...but that's admittedly pretty vague.

However, if the general consensus ends up being that it's not broken, I don't actually have any philosophical problem with you being able to build with it.  It's an interesting use.

[phaedrusxy]

Heck no it's not overpowered to be able to manipulate stone at 13th level. Come on... Look at Wall of Stone, Wall of Iron, Fabricate, etc. Those are all way more "broken" than this, and I don't really think most DMs would have a problem with those, either, unless you decided to break the crap out of wealth by level with them, or something. And even if you do that, it means you're not out saving the Princess, or whatever. So there is a trade-off. As in real life, Time is more valuable than Money, and this becomes even more true the more powerful you are.

[DonQuixote]

Heck no it's not overpowered to be able to manipulate stone at 13th level. Come on... Look at Wall of Stone, Wall of Iron, Fabricate, etc. Those are all way more "broken" than this, and I don't really think most DMs would have a problem with those, either, unless you decided to break the crap out of wealth by level with them, or something. And even if you do that, it means you're not out saving the Princess, or whatever. So there is a trade-off. As in real life, Time is more valuable than Money, and this becomes even more true the more powerful you are.

Fair enough!  I shall stop worrying, then.

Also, Bauglir...you beautiful bastard.  I really can only approve.


Edit: Didn't see this until just now.

Also, any reason these abilities are on a daily basis, unlike other formulae that are all per encounter?

While I--rather obviously--like the idea of not having to track uses per day in combat, I also do recognize the trope of having to draw on some sort of resource to use magic.  Incantations are more complicated effects, which require the ability to tap into certain powers.

For the mechanics side of things, there's no good "encounter" analogue for out-of-combat abilities.  I could say every hour or every so many minutes, but that can be weird to track.  Plus, I actually do like the idea of having to manage some sort of daily resource.  Being able to use an incantation at a given time doesn't actually have much of a bearing on how combat plays out, so I feel comfortable giving them a daily tracking.

Finally, the scaling uses fit really well into the concept of mastering your powers in a way that formulae don't quite pull off.  Sure, you gain the ability to use higher-level formulae...but, in-game, that's just a slightly bigger fireball.  If you pick up an incantation, however, you very visibly become more competent with the powers of that circle.

Incidentally, I stole borrowed adapted all most much of the incantation system from Hanako's work.  Credit goes to her on the structure of this one.


Edit Again: I have four incantations left to figure out.

• Natural Balance - Greater
• Perfect Freeze - Lesser
• Screeching Roc - Greater
• Unseen Impetus - Greater

Hopefully, I'll be able to knock these out quickly, at which point I'd binge-write them all up.  I don't know if I'll be able to get any previews up today, but there will be something new by the end of the week.


Edit 33⅓ - The Final Insult: Down to two incantations left to figure out--the greater incantations for Screeching Roc and Unseen Impetus.  We'll see what comes up.


Edit IV - A New Hope: So, I have now come up with ideas for all the incantations.  I'll start writing them up tonight, and will hopefully have them ready before the end of the weekend.

I'll note now that I'm not entirely sure how much I like some of the effects, but I also know my own fallibility.  Going to leave this one up to peer review--if people also dislike the ones that I dislike, they'll be replaced.  If people dislike ones that I like, those will be replaced, too.  But if people like ones that I dislike, they'll be left as-is.

[The-Mage-King]

Heh. Seems like a plan.

[DonQuixote]

Incantations are up!

As a great witch once said, "When they are alive, you can enjoy watching them struggle.  When they are dead, you can enjoy tearing out their guts."  So, get to tearing!

Edit: I'm also toying with the idea of a variant feat that would let martial adepts take incantations, with each of the nine disciplines being associated with a particular set of incantations.  Thoughts?

[Nanshork]

The Astral Essence ones have some bolding issues.

As for balance, Nothing pops out at me as particularly horrible or amazing, but I'll take another look when I'm less tired.

[DonQuixote]

Fixed the bolding issues.

Edit: Another idea I'm toying with, for the system revision and recompilation...exactly how bad of an idea would it be to give most spellshaping classes one free set of incantations?  I say "most" because I was thinking that the spellsage would eventually get the set of incantations for every circle to which it has access.

[pppp]

How bad of an idea would it be to give most spellshaping classes one free set of incantations?

I really don't know. I would be quite a power bump, because of gaining some utility for free. On the other hand, incantations are very cool.

I say "most" because I was thinking that the spellsage would eventually get the set of incantations for every circle to which it has access.

The spellsage is quite strong. Equivalent of seven feats would make him even stronger.

I'd rather give incantations for free to the Anchorite (he needs it), Spellshape Paragon ACF, add the Spellshape Incanter feat to the savant's bonus feats list and give the Impulse Mage ability to receive each day Spellshape Incanter tied to random known circle.

[DonQuixote]

I really don't know. I would be quite a power bump, because of gaining some utility for free. On the other hand, incantations are very cool.

Yeah, that's pretty much the exact struggle I'm dealing with.

The spellsage is quite strong. Equivalent of seven feats would make him even stronger.

I'd rather give incantations for free to the Anchorite (he needs it), Spellshape Paragon ACF, add the Spellshape Incanter feat to the savant's bonus feats list and give the Impulse Mage ability to receive each day Spellshape Incanter tied to random known circle.

The spellsage is going to be completely rewritten in the revision.  Ground-up.  Same with the impulse mage.

I'm not exactly sure how the anchorite "needs" incantations.  With the swap to aspected meditant, it's going to be a pretty solid chassis.

[pppp]

The spellsage is going to be completely rewritten in the revision.  Ground-up.  Same with the impulse mage.

My reaction was exactly as Zappa's song: "No not now". I'm in the middle of campaign with my crazy cool Invoking Battle Spellsage and, with forthcoming revision, he'll became obsolete. Aww. On the other hand, I'm longing to see revised versions.

I'm not exactly sure how the anchorite "needs" incantations.  With the swap to aspected meditant, it's going to be a pretty solid chassis.

Good point, but easier access to incantations fulfills anchorite's theme.

[Garryl]

I expect most of these issues will be with the original spells rather than their implementations as invocations. I'm still gonna bug you about it. If you took the time to write it all out, I'm also going to expect you to fix their problems.
... Speaking of which, was there any reason you didn't just say "as the xyz spell, except as noted," especially for the ones you didn't make any major changes to?

Tethered Dimension (Rope Trick): I don't suppose you feel like clarifying how dangerous extradimensional spaces inside extradimensional spaces can be given that you're rewriting this and all?
Dimensional Speech (Sending): Small typo. "Creature within which" should be "with".
Dimensionwalking (Plane Shift): I never noticed it before, but I think Plane Shift technically only works from the Material Plane.

Command Air (Control Air)
Air Form (Gaseous Form)
Air Stride (Wind Walk)

Control Illumination (Control Light)
Illuminate Soul (Break Enchantment): Bestow Curse is available at multiple levels even in core. The example seems to use the Sor/Wiz version (level 4), and should clarify as such.
Illuminating Gaze (True Seeing ++)

Will of Stone (Stone Shape): Reflex save or something for creatures caught in the stone you just shaped around their lower bodies?
Speech of Stone (Stone Tell)
Whispers of Stone (Discern Location)

[DonQuixote]

I expect most of these issues will be with the original spells rather than their implementations as invocations. I'm still gonna bug you about it. If you took the time to write it all out, I'm also going to expect you to fix their problems.

Changes made.

... Speaking of which, was there any reason you didn't just say "as the xyz spell, except as noted," especially for the ones you didn't make any major changes to?

Primarily for ease of use.  I really don't like sending people all over the place, when I can avoid it.  I also suspect that they're going to end up being slowly tweaked and altered until they resemble the original spells less and less.

My reaction was exactly as Zappa's song: "No not now". I'm in the middle of campaign with my crazy cool Invoking Battle Spellsage and, with forthcoming revision, he'll became obsolete. Aww. On the other hand, I'm longing to see revised versions.

I didn't say that they'd be done soon.  And I'm going to try to have similar archetypes and ACFs in place, so things shouldn't pan out too badly.

Good point, but easier access to incantations fulfills anchorite's theme.

The anchorite would actually, to my mind, be weird to deal with getting incantations, since you won't be able to select from all the circles you'll eventually know.  But I'll mess around when I'm revising.


Edit: Upon reflection, I think that I'm only going to give free incantations to base classes or alternative class features that are based on specialization.  Elemental adepts will get the incantation associated with their chosen elements (and something will be figured out for paraelemental adepts), impulse mages with the Darker Impulses alternative class feature will get some number of the relevant incantations, and spellshape champions with the Spellshape Paragon alternative class feature will get the incantation associated with their chosen circles.  I'm also thinking of writing other ACFs that would lock you into specific circle selections, so those will also get incantations if they see the light of day.

In general, my plans for changes to base classes are as follows:

• Anchorite: The base chassis will be switched to Aspected Meditant.
• Elemental Adept: Selecting an element will grant you both of its secondary circles--so an air-devoted adept will get both Shocking Current and Unseen Impetus.  At 2nd level, you will receive the set of incantations associated with your chosen element.  The Elemental Travel class feature at 13th level will be nerfed to just a 1/day plane shift to or from the relevant elemental plane.
  
  • Paraelemental Adept: Each paraelemental combination will receive a fourth circle, to compensate for the extra circle given to the base elemental adept.
• Impulse Mage: Complete rebuild here.  Not yet sure what's going to happen--which is about right, considering the class.
  
  • Darker Impulses: The alternative class feature will grant the usage of one or more sets of incantations, drawn from the appropriate circles.
• Savant: The savant will receive access to a fifth circle.  New feats will be added to the list of eligible bonus feats.
• Spellsage: Complete rebuild.  I like the idea of limited spell access, but the implementation of Arcane Knack is restrictive and can be unpleasant.  Also, a changed core mechanic could allow it to receive more class features, allowing for more interesting class variants.
• Spellshape Champion: I'm renaming it.  Don't try to stop me, Smee--don't you dare try to stop me.  It will also receive access to a fourth circle.  Finally, I'm thinking of defining a different familiar progression, rather than just using that of sorcerers and wizards.
  
  • Spellshape Paragon: The alternative class feature will grant the set of incantations associated with your chosen circle.
• Spellshot Marksman: The spellshot marksman will receive access to a fourth circle.

Bear in mind, these are just the basic ideas that I have before starting the revision.  More changes may--and probably will--be put in the works once I start actually reviewing the material.

[Nanshork]

I like the fact that you're revamping the base classes.  However, be wary of giving the Paraelemental Adept another circle.  Yes, the Elemental Adept has four and the Paraelemental Adept has three but the Elemental Adept only gains bonuses with two of his where the Parelemental Adept gets bonuses to ALL.

[DonQuixote]

Well, given that the elemental adept will technically have five circles in the revision, it gets a bit trickier.  An earth adept, for instance, would have Crushing Stone, Deteriorating Corrosion, and Screeching Roc as his elemental circles, and would retain access to Roaring Tide and Searing Flame.  Whereas a paraelemental adept doesn't retain any of his non-chosen circles, and thus only gets the granted circles.

I'm thinking that I might have to re-examine the way bonuses are set up.  The easiest way would be to just give the bonuses to the element's primary circle, but that gets tricky with the paraelemental adept.  And while I could just give the paraelemental adept bonuses to the two "elemental" circles--for instance, Crushing Stone and Searing Flame for a magma adept--that makes less sense for ice and ooze.

More thought will be put into this before I move forward on anything.  As I said, those are just the ideas that I've had before actually starting the revision process.

[Nanshork]

I didn't realize Elemental Adepts were getting access to more circles.  That will make things more difficult when it comes to formula choices, with four circles I had a really hard time getting everything sorted out.

Then again, I guess you don't have to take formulae from every circle you have access to.

[DonQuixote]

I didn't realize Elemental Adepts were getting access to more circles.  That will make things more difficult when it comes to formula choices, with four circles I had a really hard time getting everything sorted out.

Then again, I guess you don't have to take formulae from every circle you have access to.

Well, the current plan is basically to fold Choice of the Devoted into the base class, removing the "choice" component in the process.  Air adepts get Blustering Gale, Shocking Current, and Unseen Impetus; earth adepts get Crushing Stone, Deteriorating Corrosion, and Screeching Roc; fire adepts get Searing Flame, Brilliant Dawn, and Shocking Current; and water adepts get Roaring Tide, Deteriorating Corrosion, and Perfect Freeze.

I'm actually not entirely married to this one--it's going to make paraelemental adepts hell to deal with, for instance, and also messes up a couple of other things that I'm not sure I want messed.  I may instead end up folding Choice of the Devoted into the base class and retaining the "choice" component.  Either way, though, it feels silly for Choice of the Devoted to actually be an alternative class feature.

Upon reflection, I'm really leaning more towards that second choice.  This also may call into question the additional circles for the other classes, which were added to balance the fact that the elemental adept was going to now have access to five circles.

I'm also not sure whether I'm going to completely remove the teleportation component of Elemental Travel, or just nerf it somewhat.  Thing is, with the current Alpha builds of the impulse mage and the spellsage, the elemental adept and the savant are going to have nearly twice as many dead levels as the other spellshapers.  I already decided that I was going to address this in the savant revision, so I'm questioning what to do with elemental adept.  My main qualm here is that I have spent a lot more time on the elemental adept than on any other base class--except possibly the spellshape champion--and I'm nervous about giving it too much love.  At the same time, I don't want to overcompensate for my own predilections by leaving the class behind the others.

One thing I am thinking of doing is dropping the elemental adept's Hit Die from d10 to d8.  They don't really need those hit points, what with the elemental companion and all.  The only reason that the class even has a d10 Hit Die is that, originally, it was widely considered to be drastically weaker than the impulse mage and the spellsage.  I'm not sure that's really the case any more.

[Nanshork]

Give my elemental adept all the love.   

Folding the choice into the main class description instead of tacked on as an ACF is probably the best way to go.  That way you won't have to adjust everything around it to compensate, and Paraelemental Adepts are fine as they are in my honest opinion.

Elemental Travel needs a planar function, otherwise an Elemental Adept brought back through Elemental Rebirth is stuck on his elemental plane.  I'm not sure how necessary the rest of it is balance wise.

[DonQuixote]

Elemental Travel needs a planar function, otherwise an Elemental Adept brought back through Elemental Rebirth is stuck on his elemental plane.  I'm not sure how necessary the rest of it is balance wise.

Oh, it was always going to keep the planar function.  I had just been considering--as described in the summary earlier--removing the other portion of the ability.  Thing is, a 1/day plane shift to or from a specific plane isn't bad by any means, but it may not be useful in every campaign.  In some games, it could be absolutely useless.

I am definitely thinking that I'll put a tether on the "travel" portion of the ability, should I choose to keep it.  It's a bit excessive as it is now.

[sirpercival]

Hey DonQ, any way I can convince you to let DhAs get the dragonblood subtype at 1st level instead of later on?  DfAs do, as do many other homebrew draconic-themed classes (such as my Idealists and VennDygrem's Dragon Shaman fix).

[VennDygrem]

The only problem I can see with that is that it's a sizeable chunk of Lesser Apotheosis at 10th level, though they'd still be getting enough other things (such as elemental subtypes- though some are better than others; Earth/Air subtypes pretty much get hosed, for instance, while fire/cold get immunities and water can at the very least breathe underwater. I suppose Air gets its flight maneuverability improved to Perfect, too, technically speaking). And Level 1's also pretty well-packed.

Overall, though, gaining the dragonblood subtype's not a huge boost all on its own, besides qualifying you for feats and/or items.