Author Topic: Vote(d) 2012 ... can't mediate the Ho Ho's  (Read 128598 times)

Offline Libertad

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@PlzBreakMyCampaign:

I understand that you're the board's sole openly conservative poster.  When it comes to the majority of posters here, things definitely lean in a more moderate and liberal direction.  It's not easy being a lone liberal/conservative/etc. in a community which strongly differs from you.

That said, you're taking things personally when others express opinions and beliefs differing from your own.  Accusing others of trolling and insulting people's intelligence does nothing but hurt your side and simply reinforces negative opinions people may have about conservatives.

When debating politics on forums, it's best to attack the idea, and not the person.  One could say, for example, that Rick Santorum's statement against prenatal testing is idiotic in that it's counter-productive to his "pro-life" views.  Santorum's a public figure, and many boards don't have rules against personal attacks against public figures (unless they become posters or get involved with the community). It is a personal attack if a forum poster calls a Santorum-supporting poster an idiot for agreeing with him.

You've contributed a lot to the community, and it would be a shame to see you leave over political disagreements with other posters.  Don't get personal, don't take things personally, and state your views without getting in the mud.  It not only helps you personally by avoiding unnecessary drama, it also helps your side's argument.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 08:18:16 PM by Libertad »

Offline SolEiji

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I'm curious.  How many of you will be taking a third option?  I will of course.  I'm always fighting the people's urge to vote for a winner rather than vote for someone they actually want.  Now, this election I'm seeing a strong urge where neither choice is particularly liked and I'm hoping its a sign for change and a heavy 3rd party showing, but then again I have a rather grim view of the general public and think they're more likely to just fold and vote which of the two turds is shiniest instead.  I'm not going to assume my 3rd option would win, but rather I'm trying to prevent either side from winning by any large amount.  A large 3rd party loss sends a message of dissatisfaction, and prevents them from thinking they have a mandate by the people.

So anyone out there picking option 3?
Mudada.

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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@bhu I'm sorry but I can't quote that, so I can't reply to it either. I do wish you would find some better people to be around. Wholesome organizations are not hard to find. Feel free to PM me for personal suggestions to help with stress and conflict resolution.

They changed how it would be classified because the SC said "if you change this to a tax, it will be fine".  Although I'm not entirely sure what your problem is here.  Is it that people on the left don't call themselves communists?  Or that they don't say fascist?  If the former, of course.  If the later, are you high or something?  Liberals all over call the Republicans fascist.
You suspiciously didn't answer the Ron Paul question, so I'll say: it seems you are saying the bill was changed after and in response to the SCotUS ruling. Please verify.

And no, I'm not high. I'm saying that the liberals I've met (many, of all kinds) usually don't call Republicans fascist as a knee jerk reaction. Please be fair to the left here.

I question your statistic.  Also, most republican politicians today say they want to get rid of all social programs, then say they want to keep the ones that people who vote for them use.  It's hypocrisy, yes, but that's what they say.  And Libertarians are even more strict about it.
My inference you mean. My statistic was of those I knew in my personal life. I suppose we could tally those with (R) in their name, and getting them to answer that question wouldn't be more difficult than getting an answer on any other question.

Quote
You prefer things civil, yet imply that Robby is dumb, insult bhu, and accuse me of trolling?
I don't really think he's stupid, but I did certainly imply he was saying dumb things. He stood by much of what he's said, so there's little for me to do. And I've not nearly been as -- er -- passionate as bhu. As for you, conditional statements are not accusations. But correcting you is tiresome. So yes I'm discussing all this despite my better judgement, partly because you said I couldn't.

you're the board's sole openly conservative poster.
Lol. Where did I say that? When I laughed for pages after the last thread I got sucked into (I didn't have the time or the command of German to put the final nail in the coffin, though)? :) It still amuses me. I have never nor will I ever be called that by anyone who knows me.

All I've ever said is that I'm fair. If fairness is conservative then I suppose I have no defense. There's more of that fairness above concerning the facism comment. Everything that I'm trying to put the brakes on here is for fairness. It's not my fault the direction is raging to the left as you say.

you're taking things personally when others express opinions and beliefs differing from your own.  Accusing others of trolling and insulting people's intelligence does nothing but hurt your side and simply reinforces negative opinions people may have about conservatives
Feel free to find an example. There's one up there of a personal attack and I (as usual) respond simply (I'm not high) and then continue on about the issues.

Feel free to compare my posts to, say, Soro's.  :twitch I always read what he has to say but I've gone on the record several times by saying that he needs to tone it down. Logically you should have done that to him more than me. I could have been missing that, since I don't have much time for these forums for the last year or so. I don't know. Then again he will bite back disproportionally (unlike me).

state your views without getting in the mud.  It not only helps you personally by avoiding unnecessary drama, it also helps your side's argument.
Ah here's the crux. I have taken no side. That would cause one of two things depending on which.... Actually, I'm not going to spell it out since you seem to be willing to read between the lines.

Offline dman11235

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I'm curious.  How many of you will be taking a third option?  I will of course.  I'm always fighting the people's urge to vote for a winner rather than vote for someone they actually want.  Now, this election I'm seeing a strong urge where neither choice is particularly liked and I'm hoping its a sign for change and a heavy 3rd party showing, but then again I have a rather grim view of the general public and think they're more likely to just fold and vote which of the two turds is shiniest instead.  I'm not going to assume my 3rd option would win, but rather I'm trying to prevent either side from winning by any large amount.  A large 3rd party loss sends a message of dissatisfaction, and prevents them from thinking they have a mandate by the people.

So anyone out there picking option 3?

There's still way too little interest in third party candidates for me to justify voting for one.  See, at this point voting for a third party candidate is akin to throwing away a vote at best, and a half a vote for the guy you don't want at worst.  It's a weighted issue, since it's not just a "I want to elect this guy", it's also "I don't want this guy elected" and "this guy has good points".  So I haven't been able to weight that in favor of a third party candidate yet.  I mean, it's not been close even, so yeah.

Quote
And no, I'm not high. I'm saying that the liberals I've met (many, of all kinds) usually don't call Republicans fascist as a knee jerk reaction. Please be fair to the left here.

Republicans are fascists and Democrats are socialists/communists (you know, the same thing....).  Those are the stereotypes that one side has for the other.
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Offline JohnnyMayHymn

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I'm curious.  How many of you will be taking a third option?  I will of course.  I'm always fighting the people's urge to vote for a winner rather than vote for someone they actually want.  Now, this election I'm seeing a strong urge where neither choice is particularly liked and I'm hoping its a sign for change and a heavy 3rd party showing, but then again I have a rather grim view of the general public and think they're more likely to just fold and vote which of the two turds is shiniest instead.  I'm not going to assume my 3rd option would win, but rather I'm trying to prevent either side from winning by any large amount.  A large 3rd party loss sends a message of dissatisfaction, and prevents them from thinking they have a mandate by the people.

So anyone out there picking option 3?
it's time for at least one more major party, but that will take reversing the idea that dem/republican is a spectrum of left and right and will be resisted by both major parties.
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Offline SolEiji

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I'm curious.  How many of you will be taking a third option?  I will of course.  I'm always fighting the people's urge to vote for a winner rather than vote for someone they actually want.  Now, this election I'm seeing a strong urge where neither choice is particularly liked and I'm hoping its a sign for change and a heavy 3rd party showing, but then again I have a rather grim view of the general public and think they're more likely to just fold and vote which of the two turds is shiniest instead.  I'm not going to assume my 3rd option would win, but rather I'm trying to prevent either side from winning by any large amount.  A large 3rd party loss sends a message of dissatisfaction, and prevents them from thinking they have a mandate by the people.

So anyone out there picking option 3?

There's still way too little interest in third party candidates for me to justify voting for one.  See, at this point voting for a third party candidate is akin to throwing away a vote at best, and a half a vote for the guy you don't want at worst.  It's a weighted issue, since it's not just a "I want to elect this guy", it's also "I don't want this guy elected" and "this guy has good points".  So I haven't been able to weight that in favor of a third party candidate yet.  I mean, it's not been close even, so yeah.

"You're throwing away your vote" is what I'm fighting against.  People want to vote for the winner, even if they don't like the winner.  Though, it sounds like you personally just haven't been interested in the 3rd party option either: fair enough.  What I mean to say though is surely there is SOMEONE out there you'd vote for, even if said person was Mickey Mouse.  That's actually something I want to encourage, even if it means 1000 votes for Mickey, as long as it wasn't 1000 votes for "whoever wins".

I'm getting nervously hopeful.  This election is the first time I've seen honest shifts in the current left-right hedgimony.  Call me impatient, but I'd like to see it have effect now rather than 4 years from now.  Anything I can do to break the system is good.
Mudada.

Offline Jackinthegreen

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I would be voting for a "third party" candidate, but I know damn well it would be throwing my vote away because there is no chance any of those four candidates will get a decent number of votes, especially with how the typical mass media covers them (which they don't besides stories at C-SPAN that read like afterthoughts).  I am actively voting against one candidate because I don't want him to win.

As far as conservative versus liberal goes, I have tendencies and views of both but am in general mostly moderate because I often find faults with both sides that I feel the best option would be something in the middle.  Capitalism vs socialism for example: Having the government run everything is just asking for trouble, but so is leaving companies to their own devices to be profitable without solid regulations to keep things in check.  We don't have solid enough regulations right now to deal with some of the crap going on (patents come to mind for me since I've been following the Apple-Google-Samsung shitstorm.)  Likewise, profit should not necessarily be the driving force behind a business or inventions, etc, because it can be at the expense of people.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 01:33:20 AM by Jackinthegreen »

Offline phaedrusxy

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@PlzBreakMyCampaign:

I understand that you're the board's sole openly conservative poster. 
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Offline bhu

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Republicans are fascists and Democrats are socialists/communists (you know, the same thing....).  Those are the stereotypes that one side has for the other.

Sadly most of the locals I live among believe socialists, communists, nazis, anarchists, liberals, fascists, etc. are the same thing and hold the exact same philosophy and are working towards a conspiratorial goal.

I have learned not to discuss politics among them because of the incredible migraines it induces...

Offline zook1shoe

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I'm curious.  How many of you will be taking a third option?  I will of course.  I'm always fighting the people's urge to vote for a winner rather than vote for someone they actually want.  Now, this election I'm seeing a strong urge where neither choice is particularly liked and I'm hoping its a sign for change and a heavy 3rd party showing, but then again I have a rather grim view of the general public and think they're more likely to just fold and vote which of the two turds is shiniest instead.  I'm not going to assume my 3rd option would win, but rather I'm trying to prevent either side from winning by any large amount.  A large 3rd party loss sends a message of dissatisfaction, and prevents them from thinking they have a mandate by the people.

So anyone out there picking option 3?
it's time for at least one more major party, but that will take reversing the idea that dem/republican is a spectrum of left and right and will be resisted by both major parties.

Agreed, I would love a 3rd party that shares more of my views, that has a chance of getting elected. Otherwise, I'd rather keep out the guy I don't want in even though they both suck. Just one more than the other ;)
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Offline bhu

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@bhu I'm sorry but I can't quote that, so I can't reply to it either. I do wish you would find some better people to be around. Wholesome organizations are not hard to find. Feel free to PM me for personal suggestions to help with stress and conflict resolution.

I'm not exactly around them by choice  ;)


Offline veekie

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I would be voting for a "third party" candidate, but I know damn well it would be throwing my vote away because there is no chance any of those four candidates will get a decent number of votes, especially with how the typical mass media covers them (which they don't besides stories at C-SPAN that read like afterthoughts).  I am actively voting against one candidate because I don't want him to win.

As far as conservative versus liberal goes, I have tendencies and views of both but am in general mostly moderate because I often find faults with both sides that I feel the best option would be something in the middle.  Capitalism vs socialism for example: Having the government run everything is just asking for trouble, but so is leaving companies to their own devices to be profitable without solid regulations to keep things in check.  We don't have solid enough regulations right now to deal with some of the crap going on (patents come to mind for me since I've been following the Apple-Google-Samsung shitstorm.)  Likewise, profit should not necessarily be the driving force behind a business or inventions, etc, because it can be at the expense of people.
Moderation is a difficult concept to get across to the voting base. It is easy to think of Us vs Them, but even a cursory self-analysis would rapidly identify that no political group out there matches your views on all significant points(unless you are a party line parrot).

It is easy to demonize the opposite extreme or tout One True Answer, but that only polarizes people, and keeps the groups from working together. Liberal/Conservative is grouping unrelated topics under a shared banner which winds up descriptive of neither, while communism and democracy winds up being false polar opposites that way(they are actually on the same side of the scale of distribution of power[Anarchy-Communism-Democracy-Feudalism-Tyranny], though there are finer distinctions). And due to two party lines, they are exclusive, one side will actively screw with the other rather than negotiating a true compromise, which would be closer to what the country as a whole would want.

Now in America's case, from the outside, you are all already strongly leaning conservative, which kind of makes your extreme conservatives look sillier than usual, and your liberals are closer to moderates.
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Offline SolEiji

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I'm curious.  How many of you will be taking a third option?  I will of course.  I'm always fighting the people's urge to vote for a winner rather than vote for someone they actually want.  Now, this election I'm seeing a strong urge where neither choice is particularly liked and I'm hoping its a sign for change and a heavy 3rd party showing, but then again I have a rather grim view of the general public and think they're more likely to just fold and vote which of the two turds is shiniest instead.  I'm not going to assume my 3rd option would win, but rather I'm trying to prevent either side from winning by any large amount.  A large 3rd party loss sends a message of dissatisfaction, and prevents them from thinking they have a mandate by the people.

So anyone out there picking option 3?
it's time for at least one more major party, but that will take reversing the idea that dem/republican is a spectrum of left and right and will be resisted by both major parties.

Agreed, I would love a 3rd party that shares more of my views, that has a chance of getting elected. Otherwise, I'd rather keep out the guy I don't want in even though they both suck. Just one more than the other ;)

Indeed, me too.  I align with about 4-5 different parties I'd all love to see given the limelight, and at the moment only 1 which has any chance (why which I mean no chance because things are stacked as hell, but they're talked about at least... hi thar Gary Johnson!)

But I actually balk against the idea of voting to keep the other one out.  Well, don't get me wrong, I understand it and I'm guilty of it, but it's more dangerous.  It's that mandate thing... say I'm trying to keep Romney out, so I vote Obama.  One problem, I haaaaate Obama, and the election is over, and Obama's got a big lead.  Victory right?  No, because they're now all "and the public has given me a mandate to keep doing the things they hate.  Also, in other news, 3rd parties continue to get no votes so clearly no one wants them in power."

The way I see it, even if it "loses", if the parties keep winning by the skin of their pants with a chunk going over to third parties they will have to fight over the 3rd party voters to try and get the edge on their opponents, which means they actually have to listen to them.  This achieves victory by either getting the 3rd party attention, or forcing one of the two current sides to fall in line with 3rd party beliefs.  And you actually get what you want, rather than the less stinky turd because in the end you still get a turd.
Mudada.

Offline skydragonknight

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The "winners and losers" reminds me of a hypothetical situation I heard in psychology: there are two criminals, who comitted a crime together which for which the sentence is ten years, however there is only enough evidence to convict them for 1 year. Each one is taken into a seperate room and given the option: rat out the other guy and walk free (leaving the other guy to a ten year sentence) or say nothing and have a near-guaranteed one year sentence. However, if they rat out each other, each will be given a 5 year sentence. The most likely scenario is that each one will rat the other out...because they don't trust the other guy not to rat out them and don't want a ten year sentence. However, in the rare case they act cooperatively with each other, they'd only have one year to serve in prison.

(Two-party) Politics is kind of like that: the most favorable option comes at the complete expense of the other guy, but there's often enough a middle-ground option that is mostly acceptable to both parties. However, neither side is willing to cooperate with the other to achieve that middle ground and will instead fight for the entire pie rather than just a piece of it, which ultimately screws everyone over with horrible inefficiency (Filibuster!) and bills that get passed only to be overturned the instant the other side has a majority.
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Offline altpersona

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bhu and i are in similar sociopolitical environments, except that he should be in a more metropolitan area.

its been a couple months since my sister told me she didnt care that obama was black, she "doenst see color"... but; ''you know, he wont say the pledge of allegiance''   :rolleyes

yesterday i saw on a friends facebook that someone they know was saying how they agreed with obama's politics and didnt care if obama was muslim, but they wouldnt vote for him because he was hiding it.

living in a red state means i can vote for a third party as effectively as i could anyone else; either way it wont make a difference. but i generally dont. i just fill out what ever local stuff is on the card.

i cant wait for ohio and wv's ad's to go away.
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Offline radionausea

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The "winners and losers" reminds me of a hypothetical situation I heard in psychology: there are two criminals, who comitted a crime together which for which the sentence is ten years, however there is only enough evidence to convict them for 1 year. Each one is taken into a seperate room and given the option: rat out the other guy and walk free (leaving the other guy to a ten year sentence) or say nothing and have a near-guaranteed one year sentence. However, if they rat out each other, each will be given a 5 year sentence. The most likely scenario is that each one will rat the other out...because they don't trust the other guy not to rat out them and don't want a ten year sentence. However, in the rare case they act cooperatively with each other, they'd only have one year to serve in prison.

That's The Prisoner Dilemna of Game Theory. It's the archetypal example of game theory.
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Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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@Pxy don't forget my lol. I feel like the Comedian from Watchmen. No one gets/points out the joke.
@SDK my gov't prof had a good point that the US gov't is made specifically so things don't get done. Imagine if there had been no Patriot Act and no Executive orders for the last few years.

I know someone's going to somehow read that and say I'm a far right nut because of it. I'm actually interested to see how, now. Wasn't there a gameshow like that? I love it when people bomb badly.

Offline bhu

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Given that you seem to want them to they might not.  You come across more and more as simply trolling.  That doesn't inspire people to talk to you other than in certain ways.

i cant wait for ohio and wv's ad's to go away.

I wouldn't hold your breath.  The Chamber of Commerce's campaign against senator Sherrod Brown started over 1 year ago.  They were campaigning to de-elect him before he even had an opponent in the race.

And if it makes you feel better at least your sis is more subtle than my former coworkers.  During Obama's first campaign during the debates one piped up and said "I ain't votin' for that nigger.  He's racist."  :banghead

Granted he also thinks Germany and Russia only pretended to fight each other during WWII to fool us into not getting involved so they could take over the world, and Stalin only helped us out because he sold out Hitler before the reverse could happen.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 03:58:27 PM by bhu »

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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So you type gross things, and I need to be silenced? I wonder why no actual conservatives have been posting.

But as you wish. PBMC out

Offline bhu

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So you type gross things, and I need to be silenced? I wonder why no actual conservatives have been posting.

But as you wish. PBMC out

I'm bitching about them.  There's a difference in posting obscene things because you feel the need to communicate about something that's pissing you off, and simply doing it to provoke.

Speaking of provocation, I have never suggested you needed silenced.  I have however suggested that if you wish conversations to remain civil you should avoid posting using language you know full well is intended to provoke an uncivil emotionally based response.  :tongue

In short if you wish to be taken seriously, quit trollin' and then pretending to be hurt and offended when you get teh response you were hoping for.