Author Topic: Vote(d) 2012 ... can't mediate the Ho Ho's  (Read 128629 times)

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #40 on: January 08, 2012, 02:54:46 PM »

violation ... we pay for the Military with Chinese credit, silly Romney.


(more seriously)
I'm sure they've got the issue by issue polling, about how many
red meat conservatives don't really believe the Cut SSI or End SSI positions.
The eventual Repub nominee has to talk to Independents sometime.
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Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Vote 2011 ... oh that was boring.
« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2012, 04:17:38 PM »
You know, I'm getting sick of the idea of the existence of a left/right spectrum.  If I told a Democrat what I wanted gov't to do, he'd call me a conservative.  If I told a Republican, he'd call me an Fascist un-American Socialist (TM).  I look at the elected representatives, and I just see douchebags.
That shows you just how far to the left said Democrats are. There are good people that could have run, many just chose not to ... because the media would troll them and they (being good normal people) can't take it. And the media does that because a) they can and b) people actually listen to the stupidest criticisms: bachman being too short was the latest one I heard.

Offline X-Codes

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #42 on: January 08, 2012, 07:37:14 PM »
Huh?  Democrats are lefties?  Ask my brother about that one...

No, there really isn't any left/right, the two parties are just different breeds of bastards.  Democrats are sniveling bastards, and Republicans are conniving bastards.

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Vote 2011 ... oh that was boring.
« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2012, 09:53:20 PM »
Oh boy. Santorum and Bachman want to ban porn.


You know, I'm getting sick of the idea of the existence of a left/right spectrum.  If I told a Democrat what I wanted gov't to do, he'd call me a conservative.  If I told a Republican, he'd call me an Fascist un-American Socialist (TM).  I look at the elected representatives, and I just see douchebags.
That shows you just how far to the left said Democrats are. There are good people that could have run, many just chose not to ... because the media would troll them and they (being good normal people) can't take it. And the media does that because a) they can and b) people actually listen to the stupidest criticisms: bachman being too short was the latest one I heard.
If you look outside the US to for comparison, the US is a fairly conservative country relative to other western countries. The Democrats are far more centrist. Anything socialist they suggest is seriously moderate compared to actual socialist policies. Heck, "Obamacare" is pretty much "Romneycare": a moderate plan.
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #44 on: January 09, 2012, 06:09:28 PM »

... or "Newt-care" whatever the House Repubs cooked up in response to Clinton in '94.
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Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #45 on: January 15, 2012, 01:26:32 AM »
@robbypants you make poor summaries (just mouse over the link...) and I understand your second point but that doesn't make my statement untrue.

there really isn't any left/right
I have never heard this argument constructed in political terms in any intelligent way ... but I have heard it often

Offline X-Codes

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #46 on: January 15, 2012, 06:54:04 PM »
Patriot Act?  "Bi-partisan" support.  SOPA?  "Bi-partisan" support.  Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan?  "Bi-partisan" support.  TARP?  "Bi-partisan" support.  Should I continue?


Offline X-Codes

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #48 on: January 15, 2012, 08:19:16 PM »
^ That is hilarious.  Somehow, I didn't think of it that way.

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #49 on: January 16, 2012, 10:13:27 AM »
@robbypants you make poor summaries (just mouse over the link...)
The mouseover is misleading. The headline is "Santorum Joins Bachmann, Pledges to Ban Porn, Same-Sex Marriages", and in the article, it says "all porn".

Don't just read the URL and assume I'm wrong.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2012, 10:16:24 AM by RobbyPants »
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Offline Libertad

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #50 on: January 17, 2012, 07:44:24 PM »
I watched yesterday's Republican Presidential Debate.  The audience was sick.

One of the interviewers mentioned that Mitt Romney's father was born in Mexico.

Audience: "BOOOOO!!!"

Ron Paul says that we should do unto others as we would have them do unto us in the realm of foreign policy.

Audience:  "BOOOOO!!!"

Juan Williams asks Newt Gingrich if he's deliberately appealing to racial resentment when he portrays African-Americans as lazy people on welfare.

Audience: "BOOOOOO!!!" to Juan Williams.

Newt Gingrich suggests that poor  and minority children should be paid to scrub the toilets of rich kids in rich schools.

Audience: *Gives Newt Gingrich Standing Ovation*

Forget the candidates, the audience is the nuttiest of them all!

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #51 on: January 18, 2012, 08:42:17 AM »
Wow. That's rather... telling. Hopefully that's more of that audience combined with some crowd/mob mentality than the voters themselves.
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Offline Hallack

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #52 on: January 18, 2012, 08:52:07 AM »
Yeah, that was a train wreck of cognitive dissonance. 

I also think there was only a portion of the crowd vocal, and they were very throughout.  That portion seemed to be split as while Ron was being booed on the Golden rule his continued statements of ending the wars, bringing troops home, etc... actually got cheers.


Offline X-Codes

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #53 on: January 18, 2012, 11:25:50 AM »
Wow. That's rather... telling. Hopefully that's more of that audience combined with some crowd/mob mentality than the voters themselves.
It really isn't representative of the voting population at large, and it's not even a real debate going on.  It's a live audience for a reality TV show.  Audiences for real presidential debates are required to be quiet during the proceedings.

Offline darqueseid

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #54 on: January 18, 2012, 12:39:38 PM »
Here's the way I'd place the candidates if I had to rate them on a scale of conservative/liberals

far right---------------------------------------------------------Moderate--------------------------------------------------------- far Left
ron paul, Perry         Santorum        Gingrich      Romney                     Obama                         


Synopsis:
Ron Paul -an old school small government conservative.  He wants to return to the pre-WW2 way of doing things.  Small government, absolutely no corporate interference/regulation, and sure, lets bring back segregation while we're at it.  (No hes not for segregation, he just wants to repeal any law that protects minorities in any way).  That being said, he'd probably be the best candidate to balance the budget(if that matters) because he's against all government spending, even the good stuff, and against foriegn wars+aid.

Rick Perry- the "compassionate conservative"  perry is george w bush #2.  While he would reduce the best parts of our government (commerce, education department and damn I can't remember the other one), he would increase our military spending all over again and probably get us into a war with iran.  This guys an idiot, but that's never stopped america from voting for a candidate before, and if we do we'll be well on our way towards growing more idiots since this guy killed education in texas, and will do the same on a national level.

Rick Santorum-  Aside from the fact that he hates gays, this guys basically a moderate.  He wants to reform government, not end programs altogether.  He talks a good game, and he is the only republican who claims to want to help upward mobility for the poor. The problem is, his plan to do that is to decrease taxes on the wealthy, and get rid of corporate regulation(along with all the other republicans).  We've already seen the results of that plan, a depression.  His social issues stances are what really makes him a conservative.  he is staunchly pro-life and anti-gay.

Newt Gingrich- Gingrich is freinds with many of the east-coast movers and shakers and you can expect that his policies will be mainly economic, mainly benefitting the ultra-rich, the most.  his social issues stances are almost non-existent, telling me that he just won't bother with them much.  he certainly has positions on social issues, but he doesn't legislate them usually, and I wouldn't expect it if he were president.

Mitt Romney- is probably the most moderate of the bunch.  While he's flipped his stance on several social issues to appear more conservative, his conservative background is chiefly from his financial plan.  Again he wants to lower taxes on the wealthy and get rid of corporate regulation.  Wether I would consider him at all, is going to hinge on how he favors education (something he's been all too quiet about).  I would expect that his presidency would not be concerned about social issues as much as it would be about helping his rich buds out during his tenure.  Which means he'd probably leave abortion/minorty rights, alone.

Obama- As much as the republicans would like us to believe that he's a Socialist, Obama is really a moderate.  his policies, even when the dems controlled both houses of congress,  were never completely leftist.  Like X-codes pointed out, many things enjoyed bi-partisan support.  Sure, the republicans have become contrarians and started blocking anything Obama tries, but he always comes WELL into the middle ground before they even start making demands.  He's done it on many issues; healthcare, budget reform, TARP, all were watered down versions of what a real liberal would pass.  Obama's never raised taxes, not yet, something a liberal would have done by now. His social issues stances are also lukewarm, he stopped DADT, but he's never been for gay marriage.  And he's basically been hands-off the abortion issue, as I would suspect most politicians to be-its mostly a third rail at this point.

For me, Obama's the only choice,  I don't want to go back to a time with no corporate responsibility, and reducing taxes on the rich is not the way to go right now.  Economic studies have shown that cutting taxes boosts the economy only by about half the amount in tax reduction.   Whereas spending money on infrastructure has a better return in a weak economic climate.  And the highest return on an investment comes from money spent in education- somewhere around a six-fold return to our economy.  Dollar for dollar my choice would always be to help education over lowering taxes(something Obama did when he allocated Tarp money to schools).  I'm not saying I love Obama, he's definately lost his chops as a liberal, but unfortunately, there's no other choice worth considering out there. 




     

Offline X-Codes

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #55 on: January 18, 2012, 01:46:20 PM »
If you define "Left" as being in favor of as much government control as possible and define "Right" as being in favor of as little government control as possible, then your list has problems.

1) Ron Paul is vehemently "Pro-Life."  In spite of his other positions, he wants total government control over all uteruses that happen to contain a zygote.

2) Similar can be said about Perry, Santorum, and Gingrich, who want the above, and also want to ban gay marriage.

3) Speaking of Santorum, he wants to ban Porn.  This would likely require government control of every single media outlet, policing everything from actual porn to nip slips and R-rated movies.

4) Are you basing Romney's positions on his statements of this past week, the week before, the week before that...

5) Virtually every Obama policy that has been enacted has been something that will, in the long-term, reduce any measure you can have of the size of government, whether that be jobs or budget.  He's actually been trying to make a reality show of eating the Republican's lunch on that issue, not to mention the killing of "terrorists."

6) Speaking of reality TV shows, that's what politics is today.  Every single stated position in Republican politics for the last 3 years has been a complete farce put on in pathetic attempt to win over people who feel queasy about us having a black president, and every stated position in Democratic politics in the same time frame has been asinine positions on important issues created solely for the purpose of showing how good they are at compromise and appeasement.  The worst part is what goes unstated: nobody is talking about SOPA or PIPA publicly.

Offline Hallack

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #56 on: January 18, 2012, 02:25:33 PM »
Synopsis:
Ron Paul -an old school small government conservative.  He wants to return to the pre-WW2 way of doing things.  Small government, absolutely no corporate interference/regulation, and sure, lets bring back segregation while we're at it.  (No hes not for segregation, he just wants to repeal any law that protects minorities in any way).  That being said, he'd probably be the best candidate to balance the budget(if that matters) because he's against all government spending, even the good stuff, and against foriegn wars+aid.     

This synopsis isn't quite accurate and is colored in a way so as to miss the point/reason behind Ron Paul's stances. 

Yes, he is for very limited government. 
No, he is not for absolutely no corporate interference/regulation.   He wants government to be involved in dealing with theft, fraud, contracts, property rights (ie damage from pollution, etc..).  Beyond that he basically believes that the regulations end up being cooped by the very things they are supposed to regulate thus creating regulatory tools that actually favor the most politically connected of big business at the expense of new/small/competing business. 

As you say, he is not for Segregation but you color it as if he is all the same.  This is a matter of property rights.  The right to do with you property what you will so long as you are not harming others.  It is the same vein of thought that makes him support freedom for gay relationships and personal choice in other areas of life.  He is consistent philosophically.  In his view it basically boils down to this... just as you have the right to do in your bedroom what you want without government interference you have the right to use your property how you want to without interference.  Freedom means fucktard bigots are free to be and use or limit use of their own private property just as others are free to do things others find objectionable. 

1) Ron Paul is vehemently "Pro-Life."  In spite of his other positions, he wants total government control over all uteruses that happen to contain a zygote.

5) Virtually every Obama policy that has been enacted has been something that will, in the long-term, reduce any measure you can have of the size of government, whether that be jobs or budget.  He's actually been trying to make a reality show of eating the Republican's lunch on that issue, not to mention the killing of "terrorists."

Yes, Ron Paul is very pro-life.  It is inaccurate to say that "he wants total government control over all uteruses that happen to contain a zygote".  He is against Roe vs Wade and wants to over turn it.  While personally against abortion he continues his limited government (particularly federal in this case) line of thought in saying that it should be an issue handled at the state level.  His position means that his limited government views would remove what he perceives as unconstitutional jurisdiction returning the matter to the states.  So while personally opposed to abortion his legislative/government stance would allow for States to allow for and even fun abortions if they so chose. 

Cheers and I hope that as X-Codes has mentioned everyone has contacted their congress critters to oppose SOPA.

Offline darqueseid

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #57 on: January 18, 2012, 02:35:14 PM »
Right and left is how a conservative would traditionally fall on an issue, not about how he feels about government control, that would be looking at sides from a libertarian point of view.

for clarification:
Far right=
Pro-life
no controls on 2nd ammendment rights
anti gay
Anti civil rights
supports a limited small federal government
favors local governments over federal programs, "states rights"
Pro tax cuts for the wealthy (top ~10%)
Global warming doesn't exist, even if it did, corporations are more important
Favors strong national defense budgets and strong-arm foriegn policy

Far left
Pro-choice
Pro Gun control
Pro Gay(For Civil rights which are really the same thing)
Favor a large centralized government
generally against tax cuts altogether and want to raise taxes to pay for increased government
Environmentally consious and want to institute programs to protect environment
Favors peace over war in all instances, with usually weak foriegn policy.

If you'll note my chart, not all the candidates I listed fit the "far right" list, the closest being Ron Paul, even though he is moderate on some things, but he's WAAY right on many others, so his overall shade would be farthest right.

If you wanted to llist the candidates from a purely libertarian perspective it'd probably be closer to this:

Least liberty---------------------------------------Moderate-----------------------------------------Most liberty
                      Perry Santorum Gingrich Obama  Romney      Ron Paul

Ron paul is against government interference in peoples lives, your right, his stance on abortion makes him more of a moderate libertarian, but as noted, he is a libertarian at heart...

Offline darqueseid

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #58 on: January 18, 2012, 02:49:56 PM »
Synopsis:
Ron Paul -an old school small government conservative.  He wants to return to the pre-WW2 way of doing things.  Small government, absolutely no corporate interference/regulation, and sure, lets bring back segregation while we're at it.  (No hes not for segregation, he just wants to repeal any law that protects minorities in any way).  That being said, he'd probably be the best candidate to balance the budget(if that matters) because he's against all government spending, even the good stuff, and against foriegn wars+aid.     

This synopsis isn't quite accurate and is colored in a way so as to miss the point/reason behind Ron Paul's stances. 

Yes, he is for very limited government. 
No, he is not for absolutely no corporate interference/regulation.   He wants government to be involved in dealing with theft, fraud, contracts, property rights (ie damage from pollution, etc..).  Beyond that he basically believes that the regulations end up being cooped by the very things they are supposed to regulate thus creating regulatory tools that actually favor the most politically connected of big business at the expense of new/small/competing business. 

As you say, he is not for Segregation but you color it as if he is all the same.  This is a matter of property rights.  The right to do with you property what you will so long as you are not harming others.  It is the same vein of thought that makes him support freedom for gay relationships and personal choice in other areas of life.  He is consistent philosophically.  In his view it basically boils down to this... just as you have the right to do in your bedroom what you want without government interference you have the right to use your property how you want to without interference.  Freedom means fucktard bigots are free to be and use or limit use of their own private property just as others are free to do things others find objectionable

1) Ron Paul is vehemently "Pro-Life."  In spite of his other positions, he wants total government control over all uteruses that happen to contain a zygote.

5) Virtually every Obama policy that has been enacted has been something that will, in the long-term, reduce any measure you can have of the size of government, whether that be jobs or budget.  He's actually been trying to make a reality show of eating the Republican's lunch on that issue, not to mention the killing of "terrorists."

Yes, Ron Paul is very pro-life.  It is inaccurate to say that "he wants total government control over all uteruses that happen to contain a zygote".  He is against Roe vs Wade and wants to over turn it.  While personally against abortion he continues his limited government (particularly federal in this case) line of thought in saying that it should be an issue handled at the state level.  His position means that his limited government views would remove what he perceives as unconstitutional jurisdiction returning the matter to the states.  So while personally opposed to abortion his legislative/government stance would allow for States to allow for and even fun abortions if they so chose. 

Cheers and I hope that as X-Codes has mentioned everyone has contacted their congress critters to oppose SOPA.

By corporate interference I mean he is against the government telling a corporation how to do business. I didn't say he was against enforcing the laws.  Of course he would allow the government to deal with fraud/theft property rights etc, he will ensure the businesses follow the laws, but he's not going to tell a business who to hire, regulate its practices, or prevent a corporation from exploiting people legally. 

Your right, Ron Paul is not for segregation, but if he were to implement his policies defacto segregation would happen in wide swaths of this country.  So while hes not publicly for it, he has no problem with allowing it to happen.   Evil persists when good men do nothing.  If you allow it to happen and do nothing about it, then your tacitly for it.

As far as abortion goes, I agree with X-Codes, its a civil liberties issue, even if I were against abortion vehemently, I'm not gonna go tell some woman what to do with her uterus.  If Ron paul is against Roe v Wade then he's FOR  at least some parts of government telling a woman what to go do with her own body.  Again, if he's not overtly pro life, then tacitly.


Offline X-Codes

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #59 on: January 18, 2012, 04:04:30 PM »
Yeah, what Roe V Wade was about isn't "State Government should decide these things, not the Federal Government."  It was about "No level of Government has the right to dictate it's citizen's private medical decisions."  Saying that it should be a state issue is a misleading cop-out he uses to convince his followers that he's authentic (tip: he's not).

That said, the measures that Darqueseid is putting up of "Libertarian vs non-Libetarian" or "Right vs Left" are still nonsense.  You can't be Pro-Life and still insist on small government without being anything but a hypocrite, because the two positions are antithetical to one another.  Nevermind that the Large Government vs. Small Government argument is almost purely academic at this point in the US.  There are things the Government needs to do, and these are the things that "small government" enthusiasts are cutting, while there are things that the Government doesn't need to do that are being left alone.  Hence my position that there's not a single redeeming quality possessed by any current, elected official in our federal government.  It also suggests that if someone is in favor of gay marriage, then they're somehow less extreme if they also want to, say, have the Military sell tanks to US citizens in order to pay for the War in Iran.  When you include so many issues, then the composite you come up with is completely meaningless.