Author Topic: Vote(d) 2012 ... can't mediate the Ho Ho's  (Read 128681 times)

Offline altpersona

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #140 on: February 07, 2012, 11:31:16 AM »
i dont have a single percent of romneys income, last year my effective tax rate was about 3.5 %.

i can only imagine if i had enough money to have access to real loopholes.
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Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #141 on: February 07, 2012, 01:28:35 PM »
2) Ummmm, wrong.  Yes, Ron personally is opposed to abortion.  No, he is not trying to take away a women's rights.  He is in favor of seeing that the unborn's rights are protected but the Sanctity of life legislation you mention does not make abortion illegal.  In fact it puts the matter squarely in the hands of each individual state.  Yes, it does ruin Roe vs Wade by removing the courts jurisdiction in the matter.  Consider for a moment the inconsistency we have legally in our nation at this time regarding the unborn.  A person can be charged with murder for harming the unborn in motor accidents or other cases.  Doctors can be held liable for murder if they incorrectly treat the mother and the unborn.  But then on the other hand they can be aborted and all is well.  Wither one is in favor of or against abortion the plain fact is that there is a huge inconsistency in the law. 
The whole being charged with murder thing only works if the fetus is old enough. Abortion would be illegal at that point, anyway.

As for the the fetus' rights when it's younger, it introduces no end of weird logical problems. Probably the biggest being, given the 25% - 75% failure rate for implantation followed by a 1-in-3 miscarriage rate afterward, you end up with 50% to 90% of fetuses dying before birth. If we count those as humans with full rights, the very act of procreation becomes problematic as it's reckless to knowingly endanger a person like that. And before someone complains about intent, I can totally be prosecuted if I get hammered and choose to drive, even if no one gets hurt.
 It gets really hard to split hairs on when to and when not to apply these rights without special pleading.

Also, as far as inconsistency in the law goes, you can approach it from the other angle. If Joe needs bone marrow to survive and Fred is a positive match, no one can compel Fred to give Joe his marrow. If Fred doesn't want to, too bad for Joe! So, if a woman decides to not share her blood and tissue, no one can compel her to do so.

Arguing "consistency" gets really weird because the issue is far more complicated than that.
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Offline Hallack

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #142 on: February 07, 2012, 01:53:58 PM »
Stuff...

Social Security
(click to show/hide)

Hallack,
Well, I'm not really trying to debate the issues per se, only showing what Ron Paul has supported in the past.  I've produced the actual bills that he supported to prove what he says.  I'm not dealing in conjecture, I'm dealing in facts. 
Stuff.....   

I very much appreciate your even tone even as we are having disagreements darqueseid.  In the same vein I apologize for my snarkiness in responding to some of the points. 

Yes, you did produce the bills and I appreciate that.  In reading the bills I found that the blog post you referenced generally mischaracterized Paul's positions.  By that I mean statements like "Ron Paul does not value equal rights for minorities."  Such a statement is very false as he and others with his stance (like myself) VERY much value equal rights for minorities (and majorities too). 

Regarding Roe vs Wade and the liberty and medical issues you raised... We are already in the mess of the nanny state telling us what we can do with our bodies.  Take the somewhat popular issue of Raw Milk for example.  Governments (state and otherwise) are prohibiting peoples choice in buying, selling, and consuming the product even when those involved are willing to deal with the risk factors involved. 

On tough things like abortion I posit that the only real answer is to get the government out of it altogether and leave it to the individuals to decide.  When government is involved one side of the argument or the other is going to use it as a tool to force their opinion on who ever happens to be the minority. 

Lew Rockwell being a conservative propaganda site... :)  I'm pretty sure most conservative propagandist out there would take issue with that hehe.  The site is very biased towards libertarian and anarcho-capitalist trains of thought along with economics through the lens of the austrian school of economic thought.  It is a different perspective than the progressive think-tank material you posted.  That is not noted as a condemnation just an appreciation of differing perspectives. 

The article linked didn't really seem to have anything concrete in it just a bunch of assertions backed up by appeals to authority.  Such is ussually the case with such articles however wither on lewrockwell, centerforamericanprogress, or any other such publication.  I did however end up finding the research paper referenced and will actually be taking time to read it. 

I started to respond to the 'love it or leave it' post but will refrain as it looks as though I provoked unreasoned response somehow.  I apologize as that was not my intent. 

@Robbypants:  Definately a complex issue with a great deal of issues and nuances involved.  Regarding murder involving the fetus ... as things sit now in most places (to my understanding) if it is known a women is pregnant and some harm comes to her or the fetus those involved can be prosecuted.  Under law it does not matter if it is the very earliest stages of pregnancy or late.
 
@ X-Codes and darqueseid
I think most of our differences on opinion and outlook stem from our varying perspectives.  I tend to look at things through the prism of personal liberty and property rights and my stances on issued develop from there. 

All of our disagreements seems to stem from having a disagreement on the extent that we should be free to live our lives and use/own our property as we choose.  The important caveat to that is that no one is/should be free to harm or impose on someone else's freedom or property.  In such cases it is just for society to punish said theft, assault, fraud, murder, etc...

Cheers.

Offline darqueseid

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #143 on: February 07, 2012, 02:28:06 PM »
Regarding Roe vs Wade and the liberty and medical issues you raised... We are already in the mess of the nanny state telling us what we can do with our bodies.  Take the somewhat popular issue of Raw Milk for example.  Governments (state and otherwise) are prohibiting peoples choice in buying, selling, and consuming the product even when those involved are willing to deal with the risk factors involved. 


well, you might find it strange that I agree with you here, I think the government should be out of the forcing consumers to do anything.  But I do  think that there is a role for the government, to warn consumers, or force companies to warn consumers about the dangers of the product they are selling.   if the consumer chooses to take the risk, its not the governments place to disagree.

On tough things like abortion I posit that the only real answer is to get the government out of it altogether and leave it to the individuals to decide.  When government is involved one side of the argument or the other is going to use it as a tool to force their opinion on who ever happens to be the minority. 
 

I think we agree on the larger point of keeping government out of it actually.  Except you have a different view of keeping the government out. I view Roe-v-Wade as the courts ruling in favor of the womans liberty against government, ruling in favor of choice, and against government telling you what to do with your own body. 

I think you ( or ron paul) are seeing it as a ruling against the fetus.  I concede the point, a fetus is a life at some point, and some could even consider it a life at conception.  I'd say the womans rights are at least 50% more important than the rights of the unborn, no matter what point we consider it a life, because the fetus only has a 50/50 chance to make it to term.   Unless the fetus is guaranteed to make it to term, then the womans rights are more important. 

Hallack,
All of our disagreements seems to stem from having a disagreement on the extent that we should be free to live our lives and use/own our property as we choose.  The important caveat to that is that no one is/should be free to harm or impose on someone else's freedom or property.  In such cases it is just for society to punish said theft, assault, fraud, murder, etc...

Oh I think we're closer on the issue than you might think, but there are certain things that your caveat leaves open for me;
for example,
does institutional racism infringe on somone elses freedom or property? I'd say yes
does a corporation get to sell a product that kills them without first warning the consumer?  I'd say no
does the government have the right to force healthcare decisions on people? of course not

And your right I did get emotional, because it was obviously an issue that is close to home, sorry about that...


« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 02:50:41 PM by darqueseid »

Offline Hallack

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #144 on: February 07, 2012, 03:32:30 PM »
Oh I think we're closer on the issue than you might think, but there are certain things that your caveat leaves open for me;
for example,
does institutional racism infringe on somone elses freedom or property? I'd say yes
does a corporation get to sell a product that kills them without first warning the consumer?  I'd say no
does the government have the right to force healthcare decisions on people? of course not

And your right I did get emotional, because it was obviously an issue that is close to home, sorry about that...

This I like.  This is getting more to the root issues on which we were disagreeing and in a form that actually makes it possible for us to have meaningful discourse based on the principles involved.

On Institutional racism- I'm not sure exactly what you are meaning by institutional.  If you mean racism institutionalized within the government and its institutions then I agree.  It should not be allowed.  While we both agree that racism is dumb and wrong I think where we end up disagree is that racism regarding private property, institutions, etc..  In ones home, on their private property, in their private organization people should be free to have their own opinions even if we find them repugnant.  A business should be free to serve only the clientele they desire.  The boy scouts should be free to discriminate against having female members.  We should be free to be gay or straight and associate with others as we desire.   Saying it differently, we should not be forced to associate with people or things we do not like or that are not according to the purpose of whatever private enterprise. 

On Corporations harming through products - Yes, businesses corporate or otherwise should be able to sell their products without being forced to put warnings on them.  I realize that last bit is likely to be the bit that sticks in the craw.  It sticks in mine too but I think there is other recourse.  The more important thing is that NO a business should not be able to sell products that harm without consequence.  People and Businesses should be liable for harm and damages caused by their actions.  I believe that within this particular topic there is probably more nuance than we really want to get into at this time.  Such as a business knowingly selling harmful product without warning vs one selling it with a warning. 

On Government health related mandates - At least on the surface we agree on this one too  :)

Cheers

Offline X-Codes

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #145 on: February 07, 2012, 05:21:19 PM »
@ X-Codes and darqueseid
I think most of our differences on opinion and outlook stem from our varying perspectives.  I tend to look at things through the prism of personal liberty and property rights and my stances on issued develop from there. 
Oh, and mine aren't?

This shit is the kind of reason I never get along with conservatives.  They claim to be high-and-mighty champions of liberty and, in the same breath, insist on the big boot of Government cunt punting poor women because it's the moral thing to do.

I'm sick of this shit.

Offline Hallack

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #146 on: February 07, 2012, 05:47:17 PM »
@ X-Codes and darqueseid
I think most of our differences on opinion and outlook stem from our varying perspectives.  I tend to look at things through the prism of personal liberty and property rights and my stances on issued develop from there. 
Oh, and mine aren't?

This shit is the kind of reason I never get along with conservatives.  They claim to be high-and-mighty champions of liberty and, in the same breath, insist on the big boot of Government cunt punting poor women because it's the moral thing to do.

I'm sick of this shit.

:P Really didn't intend to upset you. 

I'm not clear on where you think I advocated "the big boot of Government cunt punting poor women because it's the moral thing to do"

We should get along fine.  I don't really consider myself a conservative and do agree that very often conservatives do pay lip service to liberty, property, etc.. and then in the next breath call for government to enforce their personal beliefs on others. 

cheers


Offline veekie

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #147 on: February 07, 2012, 08:03:05 PM »
Its best to consider your beliefs along personal lines(specifics of each issue) than along party lines. Party lines are specifically designed to make people retarded and vote for factions without considering actual issues.
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Offline darqueseid

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #148 on: February 08, 2012, 02:41:55 AM »
Its best to consider your beliefs along personal lines(specifics of each issue) than along party lines. Party lines are specifically designed to make people retarded and vote for factions without considering actual issues.

+1  for thAt... Parties force you to take good with bad, because no one is ever 100% behind everything any party stands for, I think you'd be crazy if you were...

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #149 on: February 08, 2012, 08:47:57 AM »
Liberty and freedom can be hard to define as the sole arbiter for political reasoning. Every freedom "to" is opposed by a freedom "from".

Giving fetuses freedom from abortion takes away women's freedom to choose.

Giving companies freedoms from regulation takes away people's freedom to have clean drinking water (or whatever regulation we're talking about).

Allowing people the freedom to define marriage takes away other people's freedom to get married.

You can't really define any standpoint based solely on freedom or liberty and have it really mean anything. Freedom and liberty are really just buzzwords to make one person's side more appealing.
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Offline Hallack

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #150 on: February 08, 2012, 09:22:03 AM »
@veekie and darqueseid: Yep, parties suck and are full of all kinds of conflicting views.

@Robbypants:  I understand it is just my view but I don't think it is that hard to define freedom.  Basically, in my mind each of us should be free to live our lives as we please making use of the fruits of our labor as we please so long as we do not harm others.  That last bit of course deals with the "freedom from" portion of your statement I believe. 

Freedom from abortion vs choice:  This is a very personal matter that should remain so.  It is a matter to be decided by the women perhaps with the influence of her family and faith whichever flavor that may or may not be.  It's none of my business unless it is dealing with me and mine and I should not be able to use government via a majority vote to impose my beliefs/preferences on others.  I feel that way regarding most issues particularly 'social issues'.

Freedom to pollute your neighbors water:  In my political thought freedom does not give freedom to harm.  If I harm someone or their property (wither as an individual or company) I am and should be held liable to said damages.  This would end up being a very effective form of regulation as it would make it unprofitable to continue while doing the harm or would lead to mutually agreeable arrangements between the interested parties.  If paid enough that fellow (and the others downstream) may be okay with the water problem.  This is of course a very basic stating and generalized example. 

Marriage:  The problem with marriage is that for some silly reason people have come to believe government should have anything to do with it.  It is none of my business or the governments who wants to be married in whatever form of marriage they desire so long as it is consensual.  Gay, straight, cross species... it's none of my business and I have no right to use government to impose my personal views or even terminology.  If two (hell, or even more) want to say they are married, more power to 'em.  I think part of the real crux is how government currently gives tax advantages for what it calls 'marriage' and others rightfully want the same consideration under the law.   I don't really think it is just for government to give special treatment to the married group but in doing so it should be across the board for any who wish to do the appropriate tax paperwork.

You are right though, freedom and liberty are bandied about a lot with varying parties often meaning very different things and sometimes even conflicting things.  In such a discussion expanding upon ones meaning is important to limit misunderstandings.

Cheers.

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #151 on: February 08, 2012, 12:18:33 PM »
@Robbypants:  I understand it is just my view but I don't think it is that hard to define freedom.  Basically, in my mind each of us should be free to live our lives as we please making use of the fruits of our labor as we please so long as we do not harm others.  That last bit of course deals with the "freedom from" portion of your statement I believe. 
Yeah, and given that last caveat you added, I think it's basically adding that "something else" needed to give "freedom" more substance and context.
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Offline darqueseid

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #152 on: February 08, 2012, 12:23:30 PM »
well it sounds like we agree on abortion then, your argument seems decidedly pro roe-v-wade to me.   if the issue is none of your business(agreed) then it's none of my business or governments business either(right?), so the ruling in RvW that government should stay out of womens uteruses should be upheld.  UNlike what Ron Paul would do, he would overturn roe-v-wade, at least at the federal level,  and some states would enact laws to limit choice.  I don't see how any "libertarian" could be for that.

There are serious problems with allowing companies & people to do whatever they want first and then relying on the legal system to control them.
using your example about the water; how do you determine who all the interested parties are first of all?  polluting a river can affect EVERY house down stream, on a big river thats potentially thousands of people.  if it is drinking water for a large metropolis, does every person potentially poisoned have an interest? Do fishermen who's businesses are destroyed by ecological damage to the lake or stream also have an interest?? do animal rights activists/biologists?  do tourist industries? recreational fishermen? etc etc etc.... the point of it is, ALL of those parties would need to get paid in your scenario, something no company would be able to do.
-if the company poisons the river anyway and suit is needed to be brought, which of those thousands of injured parties does it?  And furthermore why do the injured parties have to bear the risks & costs of bringing suit in the first place?  if a law against polluting exists, the government bears the burden, and rightly so. 
-Even if they do have a case and they are successful in thier lawsuit, what do they get?  If the company doesn't have the resources to clean up the water then the best they can hope for is to bankrupt the company, they probably won't get fair restitution for thier damages to thier health or property either.  AND to boot the water's still poisoned... 
-and finally, there was a time, not too long ago when environmental regulations didn't exist and we're still dealing with the environmental damage to many lakes and streams today.  Even now, when we do have environmental regulations some companys still dump toxic waste illegally.  If companys aren't afraid of the consequences now with actual laws in place against it, what makes you think they'll worry about playing nice with other interested parties when theres no laws?  they wouldn't, they didn't in the past, and they wouldn't in the future.
if All these problems exist with just your Basic example, a real world scenario would literally be a nightmare.

I think we agree on marriage.  I think the government should just declare it all civil unions and be done with it.  but thats not what Ron paul feels, he's voted for countless pro marriage (&anti-gay marriage) initiatives, he has supported DOMA(Defense Of Marriage Act), and even introduced legislation that would bar courts from even hearing cases on DOMA.  he would have made it illegal for the courts even to hear cases on matters of sexual orientation.  So not only can gays not have thier marriages recognized by the federal government, they can't challenge it in court, hell if RP would have his way, they couldn't even TALK about it in court.  So so much for anti-gay discrimination, if somone wants to discriminate against a person for being gay there would be NO redress.  Not even your suggested legal redress Hallack, because the courts would be barred from even hearing the case.   

RP is dead wrong when it comes to liberty, he's a far right social & political conservative wolf in "libertarian" sheeps clothing...

« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 12:26:12 PM by darqueseid »

Offline Hallack

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #153 on: February 08, 2012, 01:51:16 PM »
I see Roe v Wade as government interference at the federal level and legislating from the bench.  It likely is not apparent but I also distinguish between what is legal federally, at state level, individually, and my own preferences.  Those distinctions are where you get the impression of me being off on consistency in instances like Roe v. Wade.  Federally, I do not think the courts have rightful jurisdiction.  I hold that view even if the ruling on Roe v. Wade was the opposite from what it is.  My sole problem with Roe v. Wade is that I do not think it is the Feds business. 

To further muck it up I personally do not think it is the States business either and would prefer the States stay out of it as well.  Constitutionally however they probably do have the jurisdiction to make laws and judgements the that nature.  I don't like it and even at the State level would fight against it.  So there I find I make a distinction between what is legal/constitutional and what I think is best. 

On the business and river example... yes, all those people would have claim and likely it would amount to the closure of said business do to cost of business due to their damages being too high.  True, in the extreme case not everyone would be raking in the dough due to lawsuits but the offending business would be put out of business.  As things are now they usually pay a slap on the wrist fine and move on. 

If such market regulation was to run its course in most instances businesses.   would have to become more conscious of their environmental impact and impact on their neighbors.  This would lead to them self regulating and/or making arrangements with those about them so as to make the business functional.  If functional terms could not be found the business would not be able to function or if they tried would end up being shut down in short order. 

In general laws against pollution as they stand do not stop the pollution either and are often strongly influenced by the very interests they supposedly regulate.  Individuals injured are much more likely to be a responsive counter to the pollution than the government.  The cost of people bringing the suits would work to some degree to limit frivolous suits and such expenses could be passed on to the looser as part of such suits. 

I would posit that laws against pollution are not as important as simply having the government justly enforcing property rights and damages in such cases.  The governments burden should not be to bring such suits nor to subsidize it as that would only encourage more litigation and bog down the system.  It should be touched on but is tangent I think that costs associated with such suits in such a free market system might very well be much cheaper than is current.  I admit that such may not be the case and merits much more consideration. 

I agree that in the not so distant past (and ongoing) environmental damages have occurred.  But I posit to you that the real problem was not lack of regulation (Note: I'm not suggesting that all regulation and laws are bad) but a lack of respect for property rights and enforcement of said along with damages for the damage caused.  In the bulk of those cases I suspect we would find business interests getting over on people due to connections with government. 

Our current real world scenario is pretty much an nightmare where the biggest businesses get by with whatever they want because people do not really believe in property rights and the government will not aid the people in protecting their property. 

I'm also not saying things would be utopian, perfect, shiney, and perfect in what I propose. 
 
The problem with DOMA is that it actually defined marriage for federal purposes.  This is mostly an issue due to tax reasons but as I have already mentioned I'm against special treatment one group for tax purposes.  The part that RP supported most in the bill and the reason he probably would have voted for it had he been in congress at the time is the restriction in places on the feds forcing states to recognize licenses from other states regarding marriages.  In that he is being consistent on the idea of 'states rights'.  Here is link with citations regarding Ron on the topic ...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Ron_Paul#Same-sex_marriage  He seems to believe that ideally the government (fed or state) would have nothing to do with marriage as it is a private matter and we can call our association anything we want.   

Regarding the Marriage Protection Act, I can see where he is coming from and it is 'states rights' position again.  Not sure I like it or agree but I see where he is coming from in wanting to protect each states ability to decide on the issues as they see fit.  Again, I reiterate that this would probably be a non-issue if there were no monetary benefits (tax benefits) and such associated with government sanctioned marriages. 

Bottom line on that is that RP wanted to keep the Feds from forcing the states one way or the other.

Related to this I think state and federal government should recognize inheritance rights (and things like veterans benefits) for gay couples as a matter of enforcing and respecting private contracts between individuals. 

I disagree with the statement that he is "a far right social & political conservative wolf in "libertarian" sheeps clothing..." Surprise right hehe.  There is very few instances where you can find him pushing his christian beliefs and trying to force them on others.  In fact, the defining marriage and protecting that definition via other legislation is the closest I can think of to such an argument.  Thinking I understand where he is coming from there I think he was/is more interested in protecting states rights in that regard than defining but I do admit that it is a place for valid criticism and one I'm not totally pleased either.   

BTW, enoying the conversation and the challenges it presents.  It's good to reconsider ones ideas and put them through the fire.  It's even led me to change my mind more than a few times :)

Cheers

Offline darqueseid

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #154 on: February 08, 2012, 04:31:56 PM »
well, we already decided 150 years ago, the question of states rights vs federal rights.  That may be a topic for another time, but there are certain rights that the federal government must uphold for us, to stop the state laws from sometimes trampling them -namely,  the courts must protect our rights outlined in the constitution. 

I don't think there is valid footing to say that roe v wade was federal judicial activism, unless you are saying that we are NOT afforded a right to privacy under the constitution.  I don't think thats your position, so I needn't get into it, but if we are afforded a right to privacy under the constitution it is the mandate of the federal courts to uphold our rights when a state would otherwise not. 

-This is why I see roe-v-wade as a liberty+, because the federal courts are actually protecting our right to privacy(well womens rights, and a doctor's rights to practice, specifically, in this case). To your larger point I agree, its NOT the feds business, and I agree its not the states business either, and the whole case was started because a state(Texas) banned abortion. The federal courts would never have had to mess with this if it weren't for the state governments meddling in our business.
So the federal courts didn't want the argument, didn't start the argument and its ruling was actually to tell the state(s) to get out of the argument.  That is why it is a good ruling and should be upheld, because its there to do exactly what you want;  keep the government out of our personal business.

I also agree that our laws against pollution don't stop all pollution, but they have reduced it significantly.   Of course the legal reparations route is open to private citizens still, when a company breaks the laws and pollutes a river, you can bet everyone and thier mother will jump on the damages bandwagon.  The bankruptcy scenario still exists with pollution laws, but the government usually fines the amount it will take to clean up the problem, so at least before damages are paid out, the pollution gets cleaned up(and future or further damage is prevented).


If such market regulation was to run its course in most instances businesses.   would have to become more conscious of their environmental impact and impact on their neighbors.  This would lead to them self regulating and/or making arrangements with those about them so as to make the business functional.  If functional terms could not be found the business would not be able to function or if they tried would end up being shut down in short order. 



But it didn't, and it doesn't.  Companies do whatever they can get away with to support the bottom line.  its still true now, so it'd be even worse with no government regulation.


 Bottom line on that is that RP wanted to keep the Feds from forcing the states one way or the other.



Bottom line is RP is wrong, again if the Feds have one purpose-ANY worthwhile purpose, it should be to protect our freedoms outlined in the constitution.  The freedom to choose who we want to marry is also covered under our right to privacy.  And IF the government is recognizing marriages and giving benefits to one group under the law, then it should be applied equally under the 14th ammendment(I think we agree here in principle). 
-No, Government shouldn't be involved in marriage at all(agreed), but since it currently is, you shouldn't vote for legislation that specifically supports this unfair institution using states rights as a justification.  And then you shouldn't prevent one group from getting those rights under the law using states rights as a reason-(gay marriages not recognized by other states). Peoples rights trump states rights any day(or at least they should). 

Offline Hallack

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #155 on: February 08, 2012, 05:19:13 PM »
Agreed, peoples rights trump.  Sadly, our legal system (here in the US anyways) allows states and other jurisdictions to meddle. 

As we've moved along it sounds like we generally agree on basic ideas/principles.  It is the execution where we are finding the differences.

Another thought on right (or few thoughts).  I think often people speak of rights or think of rights as coming from government (not saying this is the case here in this discussion).  Rights come from our being, our humanity, not government.    In the vein I do not think there are such things and group rights (ie gay rights, women's rights, labor rights, etc...)  Those are all artificial divisions of individual right (the only real kind in my mind) that allows us to carve up and piecemeal interfere with the rights of others.

Anyways, thanks again for the civil discussion. 

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #156 on: February 08, 2012, 06:24:27 PM »
I'm not entirely sure, but Hallack I think there may be a logical inconsistency in one of your positions.

You say that an individual's rights are more important than the rights of a business.  Yet you maintain that it's a restaurant's right to serve who it pleases, even to the point of discriminating against individuals.  Is that not a contradiction?
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Offline dman11235

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #157 on: February 08, 2012, 08:26:38 PM »
The problem is that by enforcing the rights of the individual, you're restricting the rights of the restraunt.  By enforcing the rights of the restraunt, you're restricting the rights of the individual.
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #158 on: February 08, 2012, 08:31:20 PM »
The problem is that by enforcing the rights of the individual, you're restricting the rights of the restraunt.  By enforcing the rights of the restraunt, you're restricting the rights of the individual.

Which is why it's you have to determine a hierarchy -- which is the most important?  If the rights of the individual are the most important, then the restaurant has to serve anyone who wants to eat there.

And saying "well the individual has the right to eat somewhere else" misses the point.
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Offline Hallack

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #159 on: February 09, 2012, 09:28:10 AM »
I'm not entirely sure, but Hallack I think there may be a logical inconsistency in one of your positions.

You say that an individual's rights are more important than the rights of a business.  Yet you maintain that it's a restaurant's right to serve who it pleases, even to the point of discriminating against individuals.  Is that not a contradiction?

The problem is that by enforcing the rights of the individual, you're restricting the rights of the restraunt.  By enforcing the rights of the restraunt, you're restricting the rights of the individual.

Which is why it's you have to determine a hierarchy -- which is the most important?  If the rights of the individual are the most important, then the restaurant has to serve anyone who wants to eat there.

And saying "well the individual has the right to eat somewhere else" misses the point.

First, I think ALL rights are individual rights.  Those rights to me are based on property/ownership.  Both owning ourselves and the fruits of our labor.  Each of us have the same rights.   The business's right to to refuse service is based upon the individual owner(s) right to use their private property (including time) how they choose and with whom they choose. 

I think the reason you may see an inconsistency is because you think has a right to product or service at the private place of business and the owner of that business must provide the product or service.    I would say we have a right to seek goods and services from others not a right to them from others.  In a free society one does not have to provide a good or service if they don't want. 

To put it another way... The way my business is set up anyone can come in off the street to seek my services.  It is their right to do so.  I however do not have to provide my services and should not be compelled to do so.

The premise of my line of thought is founded on the belief in private property.   

Does that expound upon my view making it more clear?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 09:33:11 AM by Hallack »