Author Topic: Vote(d) 2012 ... can't mediate the Ho Ho's  (Read 128717 times)

Offline dman11235

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #160 on: February 09, 2012, 09:56:04 AM »
Well, I see what you're saying, my previous statement was merely to indicate that perspective is VERY important in this debate.  What is freedom to one person is tyrany to another, essentially.  No matter where you go on the spectrum, there's always going to be someone claiming that their freedoms are being restricted.
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #161 on: February 09, 2012, 10:00:55 AM »
OK, I see how by your definitions it's not logically inconsistent... but I think that "having the right to seek service" is kind of meaningless, at least in terms of how things actually function.  Sure, a minority in a racist town will have the choice to "seek service" anywhere, but if everyone else in that town chooses not to provide it, that individual is left with their only choice being to move somewhere else.

Another problem with your philosophy is that it's extremely reactive.  A company pollutes a river and then it goes bankrupt because it can't pay for all the lawsuits.  However, that doesn't change the fact that the river is polluted, a lot of animals (and possibly people) died, and there is likely an irreversible environmental impact.  Prevention is better than punishment.
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Offline Hallack

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #162 on: February 09, 2012, 11:16:19 AM »
Prevention by law isn't a great system either.  I do not claim it completely fails.  A big problem with prevention in the way of preemptive law (as our laws have developed) is that those same laws end up being tools for the industries being regulated.  They are used to stifle competition and all too often government limits the damages due by the businesses doing wrong. 

Consider the robo signing mortgage fraud and similar/related issues.  I remember hearing just yesterday that the banks involved have come to settlements with the gov where they will pay a matter of billions (yes a huge chunk of money) that will be used to help people refinance.  I think those banks should be allowed to loose their shirts due to the fraud.  In the process of doing so the bad debt would be liquidated giving relief to those that were defrauded.  Instead the institutions are being slapped on the wrist (how relatively hard I honestly don't know) and will turn around and remake the money they are being fined in the form of refinanced mortgages they are being paid.  It looks like they are being slapped down because of the fines (thus contenting the public) but I suspect that the money will circle right back to them leaving them not much worse for wear.

I think pre-reacting will also have more unintended consequences as well.  Also I would say that consider how much a deterrent real accountability would create.  Yes, some bad things wold happen and damages would be done but such is the case with preventive regulation as well.  Neither is a perfect system I admit.  But in an social/business environment such as I support I think people in general would become more personally aware of the consequences of their actions in regards to how it affects others. 

Of course the topic at hand could easily be turned into a doctoral thesis or otherwise major work of research due to the multitude of implications. 

Cheers.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #163 on: February 09, 2012, 11:29:18 AM »
Accountability is absolutely necessary, and we don't have any right now.  I guess there's no way to prevent the "well I won't get caught" mentality...

Look, I'm no political theorist by any means.  But the way I look at it is from a D&D perspective (of course).  You have people who try to game the system (currently, corporations who buy the legislation they want), but other than the munchkins who (hopefully) get caught and punished, they're still working within the system.  You want global change, you want to rule out a certain activity or whatever, you change the system.

What you're talking about is removing the system altogether.  Now everyone makes their character however they want, and there's no way to adjudicate disputes between the characters because there's no system to do so.  I know you'll probably say "I'm not advocating abolishing government entirely", but to me it seems that's the ultimate end goal of your philosophy: "everyone should have the liberty to do what they want, as long as they don't infringe on the liberty of others."
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Offline Hallack

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #164 on: February 09, 2012, 11:37:16 AM »
You are correct.  Anarchism (not the blow the world up chaos crap) is the logical conclusion of my philosophy.  I didn't get there overnight but as principles were continually tested it was a pretty steady march over the years in this direction.   :)

Ideally we don't need government with a stick standing over us as we have now.  But we are not in an ideal world.  A constitutionally limited republican form government (not the stupid party) is a decent point of compromise in my mind if we could keep the chains on it.  That is the trouble we face in the near term I think.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #165 on: February 09, 2012, 11:45:16 AM »
The fastest way to fix the current system is to find some way to decouple monetary contributions from the election process.  That would remove most of the big corporations' leverage.
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Offline darqueseid

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #166 on: February 09, 2012, 11:51:03 AM »
I'm not entirely sure, but Hallack I think there may be a logical inconsistency in one of your positions.

You say that an individual's rights are more important than the rights of a business.  Yet you maintain that it's a restaurant's right to serve who it pleases, even to the point of discriminating against individuals.  Is that not a contradiction?

The problem is that by enforcing the rights of the individual, you're restricting the rights of the restraunt.  By enforcing the rights of the restraunt, you're restricting the rights of the individual.

Which is why it's you have to determine a hierarchy -- which is the most important?  If the rights of the individual are the most important, then the restaurant has to serve anyone who wants to eat there.

And saying "well the individual has the right to eat somewhere else" misses the point.

First, I think ALL rights are individual rights.  Those rights to me are based on property/ownership.  Both owning ourselves and the fruits of our labor.  Each of us have the same rights.   The business's right to to refuse service is based upon the individual owner(s) right to use their private property (including time) how they choose and with whom they choose. 

I think the reason you may see an inconsistency is because you think has a right to product or service at the private place of business and the owner of that business must provide the product or service.    I would say we have a right to seek goods and services from others not a right to them from others.  In a free society one does not have to provide a good or service if they don't want. 

To put it another way... The way my business is set up anyone can come in off the street to seek my services.  It is their right to do so.  I however do not have to provide my services and should not be compelled to do so.

The premise of my line of thought is founded on the belief in private property.   

Does that expound upon my view making it more clear?

Well this is what I was getting at earlier with my question about institutional racism, but we got sidetracked.   sirpercival made a good point here, institutional racism is when institutional systemic policies, practices and economic and political structures place non-majority racial and ethnic groups at a disadvantage in relation to an institution’s majority members. 
It can be argued that institutional racism is still prevalent in america;
one need only point to inequalities in the justice system for blacks;
-The likelihood of black males going to prison in their lifetime is 28% compared to 4% of white males -and 16% of Hispanic males. (United States. Dept. of Justice. 2008. Bureau of Justice Statistics: Prison Statistics. Washington, DC: U.S. Dept. of Justice.)
income inequality;
-the median black personal income in all education levels is 10-15,000$ less per year than whites (US bureau of census(2006))
and racist hiring practices:
http://www.epi.org/publication/webfeatures_snapshots_archive_09172003/

This is institutional racism, and this is not just true for blacks, other races and women have the same problem.  There is clearly a system in place that favors white men, in at least one part of government(the courts) and clearly economically. 

So, does institutional racism infringe upon different races rights? absolutely, The constitution prohibits discrimination on the basis of race in the equal protection clause of the 14th ammendment.  The civil rights act of 1965 abolished discrimination on the basis of race in public accomodations.  Subsequently in Heart of atlanta motel vs the US, the supreme court upheld the civil rights act as constitutional, and the method by which congress abolished segregation(through the interstate commerce clause) was well within the powers of congress, and perfectly valid(with all justices concurring). 

The court rejected your argument hallack unanimously in fact, that the government was forcing the hotel proprieter into involuntary servitude by making him serve the black customers. They rejected the argument on the grounds that he was not being "damaged" or coerced into service with no remuneration.  It was a service he was paid for, in fact a service that he made a profit on, so the court actually felt that he was being helped by this "involuntary service".  Subseqent rulings have stayed consistent to this by the way, wherein "volunteer" or non-profit organizations have been allowed to continue discriminatory practices(the boy scouts). 




Offline X-Codes

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #167 on: February 09, 2012, 02:39:12 PM »
Prevention by law isn't a great system either.  I do not claim it completely fails.  A big problem with prevention in the way of preemptive law (as our laws have developed) is that those same laws end up being tools for the industries being regulated.  They are used to stifle competition and all too often government limits the damages due by the businesses doing wrong. 
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #168 on: February 09, 2012, 03:38:49 PM »
 ;)
Could any of you imagine the 4 Repubs that are still in the race, arguing along these various lines ??

I mean, the Repub nominee won't get figured out now until the Convention.
Along the way, they could argue legit theory, instead of what's happened so far.

( ... or is this just  wishful thinking on my part ? )
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Offline darqueseid

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #169 on: February 09, 2012, 03:45:25 PM »
wishful thinking I'm afraid.  thier stances on issues aren't that far apart really, but none of them want to get into anything too controversial,  that could ruin thier chances with undecided voters in the general election. which is also why you mostly just see them attacking obama.  It seems like the only thing the conservatives can agree on right now is that Obama sux, and they gotta beat him at all costs


Offline veekie

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #170 on: February 10, 2012, 04:23:47 AM »
The fastest way to fix the current system is to find some way to decouple monetary contributions from the election process.  That would remove most of the big corporations' leverage.
Not near most, they have enough levers to use even without direct cash contributions. Which is pretty much why they shouldn't be allowed monetary contributions.
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Offline Hallack

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #171 on: February 10, 2012, 09:38:31 AM »
;)
Could any of you imagine the 4 Repubs that are still in the race, arguing along these various lines ??

I mean, the Repub nominee won't get figured out now until the Convention.
Along the way, they could argue legit theory, instead of what's happened so far.

( ... or is this just  wishful thinking on my part ? )

Yes, but only one.  Ron Paul.  In fact he tends to blather on along these lines speaking about principles and political theory issues (even in the debates).  It's part of his appeal problem that he talks less in simplified sound bites. 

The fastest way to fix the current system is to find some way to decouple monetary contributions from the election process.  That would remove most of the big corporations' leverage.
Not near most, they have enough levers to use even without direct cash contributions. Which is pretty much why they shouldn't be allowed monetary contributions.

I'd say the money and influence peddling is a secondary consequence of us allowing the government so much power (power that I would argue is unconstitutional in many areas but lets not get distracted into that particular debate :) )  Basically, because the government is being allowed to influence those areas beyond simply dealing with fraud, contract enforcement, etc.. the various interests maneuver to gain and buy influence to better help themselves.   So long as the government is allows so much influence the money and corruption will follow.  Get the government out and then the money would start drying up as there would be no advantage to trying to buy the influence. 

The court rejected your argument hallack unanimously in fact, that the government was forcing the hotel proprieter into involuntary servitude by making him serve the black customers. They rejected the argument on the grounds that he was not being "damaged" or coerced into service with no remuneration.  It was a service he was paid for, in fact a service that he made a profit on, so the court actually felt that he was being helped by this "involuntary service".  Subseqent rulings have stayed consistent to this by the way, wherein "volunteer" or non-profit organizations have been allowed to continue discriminatory practices(the boy scouts).

I'd say that is because that court didn't really believe in private property or at least had a different view of it than I.  I haven't looked at the particulars of the case (I'm going to assume it was private property) but for them to declare that remuneration means it wasn't forced servitude doesn't hold water logically.  Either the proprietor was forced/coerced to serve who he did not want or he wasn't.  The remuneration is a distraction to the issue of involuntary servitude.  A paid forced labor is still forced labor.  Some may think that it was for the good and because the client was served and the owner made profit all is fine but that does not actually change what it was, forced service.

Now I would argue right along with you that it makes more economic/business sense for the proprietor to not discriminate and take good remunerated clients where he can.  I would also agree with with any that declare that racism, bigotry, etc are not good things.  I would not however agree that is it right to force a racist/bigot to serve the object of their distaste (for private business/company that is) even if they would profit (or otherwise be helped) by doing so. 

That's part of the double edge of freedom.  People are free to have beliefs others consider distasteful, irrational, stupid, and bad and to do thing with their own property that others consider distasteful, stupid, and bad.  My standard no harming others caveat applies of course. :)

Cheers
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 09:40:24 AM by Hallack »

Offline darqueseid

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #172 on: February 10, 2012, 10:54:17 AM »
I'd say that is because that court didn't really believe in private property or at least had a different view of it than I.  I haven't looked at the particulars of the case (I'm going to assume it was private property) but for them to declare that remuneration means it wasn't forced servitude doesn't hold water logically.  Either the proprietor was forced/coerced to serve who he did not want or he wasn't.  The remuneration is a distraction to the issue of involuntary servitude.  A paid forced labor is still forced labor.  Some may think that it was for the good and because the client was served and the owner made profit all is fine but that does not actually change what it was, forced service.

Well, your probably right about that, subsequent rulings that are mostly unrelated, such as Kelo vs city of new london (Supreme court 2005) have pretty much trampled on the whole concept of property rights.  For those who don't know, kelo was where the court ruled that a city could take your house for the purposes of economic development through emminent domain.  I think thats taking it way too far,  the courts have been down on property rights for a long time, and that trend isn't changing. 

However, the city of atlanta case is a different matter.  I can actually agree that the court is forcing service, but there is no quantifiable damage to the proprieter in this case.   The court balked at the idea that the 13th ammendment could be used to prevent civil rights and they rejected it outright-they said that it didn't apply in this case(the 13th ammendment abolished slavery).  I'm not sure the justification that they used exactly, but because the proprieter could show no damages, He could not justify violating another's civil rights.  (its a case of one party cannot tangibly show damages but the other certainly can-the party discriminated against)



Offline X-Codes

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #174 on: February 14, 2012, 01:05:59 PM »
The Occupy movement isn't the left-wing opposition to the Tea Party.  The only common threads that all Occupiers have are 1) they want a job and 2) they want money out of Government (which most see as the cause for them not having a job).  These sentiments are not in opposition at all to the Tea Party, and actually parallel many of the actual, grassroots Tea Party sentiments (not the part of the Tea Party that was hijacked by corporate interests, mind you).

Offline Hallack

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #175 on: February 14, 2012, 02:13:02 PM »
I agree with X-Codes there.  Most opposition between the Occupiers and Tea Partiers are a combination of ignorance of each others positions and media/powers that be playing them off each other.

If individuals in either group will take the time they will find that they have a great deal in common in intent if not method.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #176 on: February 14, 2012, 04:13:47 PM »
 :)

[tangent]

Has anybody seen the Frank Miller rant on the Occupy-ers?
http://frankmillerink.com/
Since he's kinda in the orbit of rpg/comic store type place.

My impression
1) ... free speech , he can say what he wants to
2) ... if you ignore who/what it's directed at, it is a hilarious takedown
3) ... make no mistake, Frank is clearly part of the 1% via the Sin City movies
4a) ... regardless of whether he is grinding his ax, for that exact reason
4b) ... when you play into the hands of people, who have said publicly, on TV (!)
.......... that they ** are engaging in a consciousness raising exercise
5) ... you are allowing yourself to be "took" by their ideas, doing their dirty work for them


** some, but definitely not most, and absolutely not all, Occupy-ers
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Offline darqueseid

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #177 on: February 14, 2012, 04:27:24 PM »
occupy is dead.  They wasted thier time honestly. 

The tea party did some really smart things in its infancy, it got press coverage, it organized grassroots voting, chose some charismatic leaders(Rand Paul), and got some popular conservative leaders to support them(sarah Palin).  And oh btw they got some wealthy backers for thier cause.  Yeah, they sold out, but at least now they have some modicum of power, even if its only power over boehner, but he's a crybaby anyway so its not like it was hard.   

The Occupy movement, on the other hand stayed disorganized, didn't get themselves involved politically really at all(which candidate was an occupy candidate?),  and in fact avoided choosing any leaders whatsoever.  And beyond that, what issue did they ever stand for really?  jobs?  they never really pushed jobs, I mean they didn't do any organized rallies to support any jobs bills, and there have been several proposed... taxes? silent...  And that's why they failed.

The occupy movement is hard to nail down on issues, so I can't really say that they agreed with the tea party because UNlike the tea-party, occupy never really stood up in a uniform way for or against anything.

I liked the ideas of the occupy movement in its infancy, much like I liked the idea of the tea-party in its infancy, but the TeaParty sold out and the Occupiers failed to occupy.  so we're all just stuck back where we were, with crony capitalism.

Offline dman11235

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #178 on: February 14, 2012, 04:37:51 PM »
See, that was the point of the movement.  It's just that our system is so srewed up that the movement couldn't do anything.  They didnt want leaders because they felt leaders lead poorly, they didn't buy votes because that's what they were against (one of the things anyways), same thing with getting money (from backers and such) and politicians.

Basically the movement was supposed to represent democracy in its purest distilled form.  Not really no leaders, more of a hivemind thing, the leader is the movement itself.  And you know what?  That just does NOT work with humans.
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Offline darqueseid

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Re: Vote 2012 ... "surrey with the Fringe on top" edition.
« Reply #179 on: February 14, 2012, 05:46:27 PM »
at the risk of sounding even MORE nerdy than I already am by posting here, even the borg hivemind selected a leader to deal with humans... maybe Star Trek was on to something...