Discuss: Caster Druid and Wildshape Druid

[8wGremlin]

Imagine that the druid class had two options.

Option 1:
You are a full caster but you do not gain Wildshape class feature.

Option 2:
You are a shape shifter, and gain Wildshape at level 1, and you get one additional Wildshape a day every odd level 1,3,5,7 etc. you do not gain druid spells, and are not considered a caster.

Would these two options seem balanced?
What would need to be done to balance them?
What tier would these be?

thanks...

 

[wotmaniac]

I would say that the caster version would be inherently better; here's why:
- the caster can still replicate shapes with spells, and can still use spells to do other things ;
- assuming that both get an animal companion, the caster can also buff said animal, while the non-caster cannot.

/2cp

[8wGremlin]

Any suggestions for class features at higher level for option 1

Option 2, should you be able to just wild shape at level 1 as a druid of your level + 4?

[wotmaniac]

So I know how to give the best answer, I must ask: What is your goal?  What is propelling you to address this?

(going on a hunch)
For my games, this is what I've done:
- Druid -- completely replaced it with the Shapeshifter variant from PH2.  Done.
- Ranger -- this is my wildshape class (but other variants and core are still available) .... except that it is quite different from what is listed in UA:
  -- Full druid-progression wildshape; but instead of losing Combat Form (which is dumb on a couple of levels), you lose both your animal companion and your spellcasting ;
  -- add another available Combat Form option: Power Attack (2nd) , Multi-attack (6th) , Improved Multi-attack (11th).

[8wGremlin]

Druid is tier 1, and as such open to a lot of abuse. I any games I've run, played and seen. The druid players either like the shapechanger or full caster.

Many games I'm now playing in say no to tier 1, justifiably so with some of the people I play with.
So I was looking to find a way of dropping Druid down to tier 2 or even 3.

But with a simple house rule, and not some full home brew class

Hence wild shape Druid with the no spell casting, but wild shape as a Druid of your level + 4

[wotmaniac]

Well, wild shape is already very powerful in its own right.  Adding a +4 would just be .... WOW!  You might as well just PrC in to MoMF and call it done (by time you complete MoMF, your spells will be all but obsolete).
I look at the druid, and I get this image in my head of 3 completely different design teams each working on their own versions of the druid; and when it came time for publication, the lead designer just took all 3 and slammed them together in the same class.

All 3 of those options get you to your goal.
(another option of getting a tier 2 druid caster would be Spirit Shaman from CDiv)

I'm sure that there are others here with other viable ideas.

[JohnnyMayHymn]

Dropping all spellcasting would make you Tier 3 at best.

Dropping wildshape? I'd say still Tier 1.

If you only changed it to have spells per day and spells known as a sorcerer (and spontanious) I think that could drop 8t to tier 2.  If it were a specific, specialized list of spells known (much like healer, warmage, beguiler, dread necromancer), that could be tier 2 - 4 depending on what spells were on the list. But it may be difficult to drag it down to Tier 4 b/c of the wildshape and pet.

Personally, I would ask to drop spells and animal companion to add soul binding, so I could have a wildshaping binderesque character.

[Concerned Ninja Citizen]

Dropping the Druid's casting progression to Bard, Duskblade, or Mystic Ranger levels while keeping everything else, would probably hit tier 3 pretty effectively.

[Keldar]

I look at the druid, and I get this image in my head of 3 completely different design teams each working on their own versions of the druid; and when it came time for publication, the lead designer just took all 3 and slammed them together in the same class.

Not far off, Druid did steal Ranger's Animal Companion come 3E after all.   


I'll second the idea of just using Spirit Shaman for a lower tier caster Druid.  If you don't like the flavor and abilities, swapping those for the Druid's abilities (other than Wildshape and Animal Companion) would probably be a fair trade.  The Druid could lose both Wildshape and Animal Companion and still make a case for tier 1.