Author Topic: Making a Cleric a better Fighter than a Fighter  (Read 8108 times)

Offline Elevevated Beat

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Making a Cleric a better Fighter than a Fighter
« on: April 30, 2013, 08:51:21 PM »
I got into an argument/discussion with a friend last night and it basically ended up with him saying "Show me how a Cleric is a better Fighter than a Fighter".

Now I've seen it said a couple of times on the boards that a Cleric can do that. Unfortunately I have zero experience with Clerics as either archers or melee orientated beatsticks. I also have never played a Fighter.

I know it's possible (well, I certainly hope it is), but to save me literally hours upon hours of trawling through books I have decided to ask you guys.

There are no limitations to what we can use, but I'm going to make a few so that there's no possible way he can bitch about it.
  • All 3.5 books. No Dragon Mag/Web Enhancements.
  • It was implied that this will be toe-to-toe fighter style. Casting is fine, but the closer to "hit things with a stick" the better
  • Preferably a build that is not going to be up shit creek if it gets caught unawares (ie no buffs up), or at least has the ability to be ready very quickly.
  • Multiclassing to be kept to a bare minimum. I want the main bulk of this to come from divine casting the Cleric class.
  • A build anywhere between 10th and 20th level is fine.

Maybe a compromise between two of those points above. Because the Cleric has no class abilities (maybe ACFs/Variants do), it'll have to be either based on divine casting OR class dips/PrCs...
« Last Edit: April 30, 2013, 08:56:32 PM by Elevevated Beat »
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Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: Making a Cleric a better Fighter than a Fighter
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2013, 09:21:10 PM »
  • All 3.5 books. No Dragon Mag/Web Enhancements.
  • It was implied that this will be toe-to-toe fighter style. Casting is fine, but the closer to "hit things with a stick" the better
  • Preferably a build that is not going to be up shit creek if it gets caught unawares (ie no buffs up), or at least has the ability to be ready very quickly.
  • Multiclassing to be kept to a bare minimum. I want the main bulk of this to come from divine casting the Cleric class.

Books Needed: Complete Divine. Optionally get Tome of Battle for Ruby Knight Vindicator.

Core concept: Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) on Divine Power You now have full BAB and +6 STR. If you choose to multiclass, Ruby Knight Vindicator gives you extra swift actions (also known as quickened spells). Note that you need 8 hours to sleep, but your buffs last 24 hours. There should never be a time you aren't buffed. If your DM uses the more lenient ruling for extend+persist, your buffs last 48 hours and you can do whatever you want with your spellcasting on top of being buffed.

Offline ketaro

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Re: Making a Cleric a better Fighter than a Fighter
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2013, 09:31:13 PM »
Um, it can do almost everything a Fighter can do and almost as many things a Wizard can do plus heal itself.

What is the argument against that?

Offline Elevevated Beat

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Re: Making a Cleric a better Fighter than a Fighter
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2013, 09:36:40 PM »
Um, it can do almost everything a Fighter can do and almost as many things a Wizard can do plus heal itself.

What is the argument against that?

I honestly have no idea. But what I need now is to show him how the Cleric does everything a Fighter does.
Do you know how long someone who is as sarcastic as I am would last in prison? Suuuuuuch a long time.

Bhu: Favorite quote of the day: “I’ll make love to you like a confused bear. Awkwardly. And in a manner that suggests I’m trying to escape.”

Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: Making a Cleric a better Fighter than a Fighter
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2013, 09:50:23 PM »
Um, it can do almost everything a Fighter can do and almost as many things a Wizard can do plus heal itself.

What is the argument against that?

I honestly have no idea. But what I need now is to show him how the Cleric does everything a Fighter does.

I just did. With one spell and some easy feat selection, I just gave you a fighter's chassis (full BAB, +6 STR to compensate for having put your points in wisdom). With those same feats, you can pile on whatever buffs you want and never be without them. After that you customize it to be whatever kind of face beater you want.

Offline Elevevated Beat

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Re: Making a Cleric a better Fighter than a Fighter
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2013, 09:56:57 PM »
Books Needed: Complete Divine. Optionally get Tome of Battle for Ruby Knight Vindicator.

Core concept: Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) on Divine Power You now have full BAB and +6 STR. If you choose to multiclass, Ruby Knight Vindicator gives you extra swift actions (also known as quickened spells). Note that you need 8 hours to sleep, but your buffs last 24 hours. There should never be a time you aren't buffed. If your DM uses the more lenient ruling for extend+persist, your buffs last 48 hours and you can do whatever you want with your spellcasting on top of being buffed.

I didn't actually think it was that bad that one spell + one feat would obviate the Fighter...
Though, and don't shoot me for saying this, the Fighter does have more feats :rolleyes  (but between battle of the "class features" and trying to go mostly melee, the Fighter wins... and then you introduce spells :lmao)
Do you know how long someone who is as sarcastic as I am would last in prison? Suuuuuuch a long time.

Bhu: Favorite quote of the day: “I’ll make love to you like a confused bear. Awkwardly. And in a manner that suggests I’m trying to escape.”

Offline Elevevated Beat

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Re: Making a Cleric a better Fighter than a Fighter
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2013, 09:57:33 PM »
I just did. With one spell and some easy feat selection, I just gave you a fighter's chassis (full BAB, +6 STR to compensate for having put your points in wisdom). With those same feats, you can pile on whatever buffs you want and never be without them. After that you customize it to be whatever kind of face beater you want.
Yes, you did. And thank you. I was in the middle of replying to you but then got called away :shakefist
Do you know how long someone who is as sarcastic as I am would last in prison? Suuuuuuch a long time.

Bhu: Favorite quote of the day: “I’ll make love to you like a confused bear. Awkwardly. And in a manner that suggests I’m trying to escape.”

Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: Making a Cleric a better Fighter than a Fighter
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2013, 10:06:20 PM »
Books Needed: Complete Divine. Optionally get Tome of Battle for Ruby Knight Vindicator.

Core concept: Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) on Divine Power You now have full BAB and +6 STR. If you choose to multiclass, Ruby Knight Vindicator gives you extra swift actions (also known as quickened spells). Note that you need 8 hours to sleep, but your buffs last 24 hours. There should never be a time you aren't buffed. If your DM uses the more lenient ruling for extend+persist, your buffs last 48 hours and you can do whatever you want with your spellcasting on top of being buffed.

I didn't actually think it was that bad that one spell + one feat would obviate the Fighter...
Though, and don't shoot me for saying this, the Fighter does have more feats :rolleyes  (but between battle of the "class features" and trying to go mostly melee, the Fighter wins... and then you introduce spells :lmao)

More like 3 feats, but those 3 feats apply to all the spells you can afford to use them on, so it pretty much makes the character on its own.

You stated a minimum level of 10, so we'll add on Righteous Might to give you an even better chassis than the fighter.

Add Greater Magic Weapon to invalidate the need for a fancy weapon. (It lasts 1hour/level, so no need for persist here)

With Full BAB, +10 str, +2 NA, Large Size, and +2 Con, you are already more of a fighter than the fighter. At this point you can pick and choose feats for your combat style of choice.

If you feel like leaving Core+Completes, there are spells that can grant you fighter feats, locations that grant feats, and all manner of other ways to completely invalidate the idea of "feats as class features"

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Making a Cleric a better Fighter than a Fighter
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2013, 10:06:51 PM »
Um, it can do almost everything a Fighter can do and almost as many things a Wizard can do plus heal itself.

What is the argument against that?

I honestly have no idea. But what I need now is to show him how the Cleric does everything a Fighter does.

Cloistered Cleric, drop Knowledge Domain for KnowDev, take Spell and Planning domains. Feats: Extend Spell (bonus), Know Dev (bonus), Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic (Persistent).  You can take a bunch of Extra Turning after that.

Persist Divine Power & Righteous Might. Use Anyspell to get Mirror Move -- now you can copy all those fun fighter feats too!
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Offline ketaro

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Re: Making a Cleric a better Fighter than a Fighter
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2013, 10:08:56 PM »
^^^^Pretty much.

I still wonder what the other guy could have used as an argument against Clerics being totally AWESOME.

You don't just throw all armor proficiencies on a class, give it spells, then say it doesn't suffer spell failure chance and say "Yeah that thing can't fight"...

Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: Making a Cleric a better Fighter than a Fighter
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2013, 10:16:11 PM »
^^^^Pretty much.

I still wonder what the other guy could have used as an argument against Clerics being totally AWESOME.

You don't just throw all armor proficiencies on a class, give it spells, then say it doesn't suffer spell failure chance and say "Yeah that thing can't fight"...

Percival's version of it actually traded in the armor proficiencies, then got them all back with mirror move :-P

Offline Elevevated Beat

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Re: Making a Cleric a better Fighter than a Fighter
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2013, 10:19:46 PM »
^^^^Pretty much.

I still wonder what the other guy could have used as an argument against Clerics being totally AWESOME.

You don't just throw all armor proficiencies on a class, give it spells, then say it doesn't suffer spell failure chance and say "Yeah that thing can't fight"...

Hmm, come to think of it... I don't think he actually ever gave me an example of how. He was just being a stubborn ass.

Thank you, Nytemare and SirP. I'll draw up a character when I get home. I shall then give him the piece of paper and hit him (open handed for maximum degradation). Silly, silly man.
Do you know how long someone who is as sarcastic as I am would last in prison? Suuuuuuch a long time.

Bhu: Favorite quote of the day: “I’ll make love to you like a confused bear. Awkwardly. And in a manner that suggests I’m trying to escape.”

Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: Making a Cleric a better Fighter than a Fighter
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2013, 10:28:49 PM »
^^^^Pretty much.

I still wonder what the other guy could have used as an argument against Clerics being totally AWESOME.

You don't just throw all armor proficiencies on a class, give it spells, then say it doesn't suffer spell failure chance and say "Yeah that thing can't fight"...

Hmm, come to think of it... I don't think he actually ever gave me an example of how. He was just being a stubborn ass.

Thank you, Nytemare and SirP. I'll draw up a character when I get home. I shall then give him the piece of paper and hit him (open handed for maximum degradation). Silly, silly man.

The usual arguments are:

• Full BAB (Check via Divine Power)
• Armor Proficiencies (Either keep your original ones, or get them back again later.)
• Weapon Proficiencies (Martial weapons average 1-2 damage higher than your simple weapons. Woo.)
• High combat stats (Check via Divine Power/Righteous Might/Other Buff Spells)
• Feats (Check via Mirror Move and normal feat selection)
• Good HD (You average 1HP/HD lower than the fighter, and you can heal yourself)

Offline linklord231

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Re: Making a Cleric a better Fighter than a Fighter
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2013, 11:47:41 PM »
I personally am rather fond of Persistent Ice Axe.  You can safely dump Str down to 13 (for Power Attack), which means more points in Cha and Con.  Attacks are resolved as Touch Attacks, so Power Attack for full every time.  You can make iteratives with it, or even dual wield.  And it does 2d12 + 10 damage per hit. 
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Offline Rebel7284

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Re: Making a Cleric a better Fighter than a Fighter
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2013, 12:48:09 AM »
I do a level breakdown here: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9592.msg155590#msg155590

Spoiler, you need to be level 5 to be better than a fighter in EVERY way.

Offline Elevevated Beat

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Re: Making a Cleric a better Fighter than a Fighter
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2013, 01:34:31 AM »
I do a level breakdown here: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9592.msg155590#msg155590

Spoiler, you need to be level 5 to be better than a fighter in EVERY way.

That was very informative. Thanks!
Do you know how long someone who is as sarcastic as I am would last in prison? Suuuuuuch a long time.

Bhu: Favorite quote of the day: “I’ll make love to you like a confused bear. Awkwardly. And in a manner that suggests I’m trying to escape.”

Offline Larkas

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Re: Making a Cleric a better Fighter than a Fighter
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2013, 01:49:53 AM »
Oh, so you want to beat the Fighter at his own game of feats? Then just get the Magic Domain and carry a bunch of Heroics scrolls! Or get the aforementioned Spell Domain and duplicate it with Anyspell. Or use the ACF Divine "Make Your Own Domain" Magician, and get Heroics as a spell known, and get a staff with it (also works with Magic Domain). Go ahead and also get Polymorph, if it strikes your fancy, and be outright better than the Fighter at its job.

EDIT: Or a Runestaff with Magic Domain or Divine Magician. Or a Divine Staff of the Spell Domain. The possibilities are endless!
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 02:00:00 AM by Larkas »

Offline Rebel7284

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Re: Making a Cleric a better Fighter than a Fighter
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2013, 08:01:14 AM »
Mirror move is persistable: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20000901a

Makes more sense to get that if you're doing divine magician.  All the feats all day.  Works best with leadership. :)

Offline Solo

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Re: Making a Cleric a better Fighter than a Fighter
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2013, 11:39:21 AM »
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Offline parinho7

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Re: Making a Cleric a better Fighter than a Fighter
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2013, 12:04:31 PM »
IMHO the best cleric build the Cheater of Mystra

Quote
without magic equipment:
AC: 63 (10 + 12 (fullplate) + 6 (animated shield) + 6 (deflection) + 21 (natural) - 2 (size) + 10 (circumstance))
Attack: +30/+25 ( 9 (BAB) +11 (str) + 6 (divine favor) + 4 (gmw)) [smile into the face of ANY monster]
Damage: 4d6 (huge darkwood greatsword) + 36
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 12:08:14 PM by parinho7 »